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Camerloon compared do Don Quixote, eh? Well, they both share an obsession with windmills!

"As the economy grows more money goes into the Treasury, Cameron is proposing spending some of that money on public services, and some on funding tax cuts - How is that a tax increase?"

Do you believe in UFOs and the tooth fairy as well?

"would put money on it that Giles McNeill doesn't live in EL's constituency, assuming he exists at all, which I doubt."

This is hilarious! He puts forward a view with which I disagree. Therefore he is a liar. Therefore, what's more, he doesn't exist!

What an unreal world you inhabit Mr Irvine.

I do exist.

I'm on the parish council in my village so feel free to visit the website and check:

http://parishes.lincolnshire.gov.uk/nettleham/

And my webcameron user profile is 'chairman'. You can also do a google search on my name and get pages of content on me.

I think that Leigh, and 99% of people here, need to take a deep breath and remember Ronald Reagan's first law "never speak ill of a fellow conservative".

A house divided must fall.

I think that Leigh, and 99% of people here, need to take a deep breath and remember Ronald Reagan's first law "never speak ill of a fellow conservative".

A house divided must fall.

Yes, Simon, but according to the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre, the Tories aren't conservatives any more, are they...

"I think that Leigh, and 99% of people here, need to take a deep breath and remember Ronald Reagan's first law "never speak ill of a fellow conservative".

Which didn't stop him campaigning against sitting Republican President Gerald Ford for the Republican nomination in 1976.

Giles McNeill - what did Edward Leigh say about Lords reform?

Thanks to all those who took up my lead on picking out the grammar schools bit.

ToMTom: "but Non-Selective Academies can be built with a billion or two of public money...."
Well, I don't think they should be - we're building them using wasteful PFI contracts - we are spending beyond our means. And the more PFI's Labour lumps us with, the more hamstring Cameron will be when he finally gets into power. They might be building stuff now, but we'll have obligatory payments so vast when Cameron finally gets us in that we really won't be able to do much building, of any sort, in my opinion.

I'm not happy about Cameron's attitude to the grammar schools in northern Ireland thing, though lack of support doesn't represent an attack, as Leigh implies. I don't live there, but as far as I'm aware this wasn't favoured by the people there? At any rate, Hain could've/should've waited for the new devolution settlement there.

I don't see any problem with PFI buildings - some can be turned into selective schools quite easily. In other instances contracts can be rescinded by adding new contractual terms - after all if Pensions and Marriage Contracts can be adjusted by later legislation I see no reason why a few Operating Leases cannot be amended by changes to tax law and liability

sorry IRJMilne somethings are between a voter and the candidate.

A glimmer of hope!

One day the philosophical conservatism of people like John Hayes may become untangled from the reactionary ravings of people like Edward Leigh

Hoopla. Another craven sockpuppet hiding behind a ridiculous ID.

There's not a shred of philosophy behind the banal bourgeois-socialist ravings of Cameron and his crew.

I suspect "Eton Dave" thinks philosophy is what his fellow toffs do when they toss a few crumbs in the direction of the poor.

He's done his own Lady Bountiful bit with Hug a Hoodie.

Do you have tourette's syndrome Alex? Only you seem incapable of writing a post without abusing people.

Well that's funny Gareth, I was about to say the same about you, but I see Michael McGough has said it already.

Did you say you were a barrister? Care to tell us how many times you've been ticked off by the Judge for losing your rag in court?

Tam, I do not hide my identity behind any sort of pseudonym at all. I joined the Conservative party in 1979 when I was 18.

Is John Irvine honourable enough to pay the wager that Giles McNeil doesn't exist?

Once again, Mr Forsyth, some evidence for this allegation?

In one short post you managed this impressive tally:

"Another craven sockpuppet"

"banal bourgeois-socialist ravings of Cameron and his crew."

"I suspect "Eton Dave" thinks philosophy is what his fellow toffs do when they toss a few crumbs in the direction of the poor."

Bully for you Malcolm.

I joined in 1970 when I was 17.

In those days we had a fantastic party with a fantastic social life.

Pity about Heath but we trashed him anyway.

Once again, Mr Forsyth, some evidence for this allegation?

"I suspect "Eton Dave" thinks philosophy is what his fellow toffs do when they toss a few crumbs in the direction of the poor."

Tell you what, "Gareth", I'll write to Cameron and ask him.

When/if he replies I'll let you know the result.

If Cornerstone members feel so heavily, then why don't those who hold shadow ministerial positions, such as Julian Brazier, resign from them?

Cornerstone are a Europhobic joke. In that sense, they represent many of the posters on this site...

Wow, advice from someone with the trustworthy name of "Redsam" - hmmm, that's got to be yet another Cameroon-troll, and, by Jove, it was!

And yet again this site descends into infighting.... How depressing.

Edward Leigh is a fantastic Parliamentarian and does a great job on the PAC, however, I live in the neighbouring contituency to his and don't recall any voters here saying "I'll vote for you instead of Labour if you....bang on more about the EU/have more of a pop at immigrants/privatise everything that moves"

Lots of people DID care about finding a good school for their child, or getting good healthcare or childcare. We should be focussing on these issues, not the limited right-wing-nerd priorities of Leigh's "Kinder, Kirche und Kuche" faction.

Since Edward Leigh has said similar things many times before his criticism of the party leadership should come as very little surprise.

However one right wing MP being critical of David Cameron is along way short of the conservative party being divided.

In fact, Graham, the party is increasingly divided. Checkout the CH poll which shows a steady rate in the %age dissatisfied with Cameron.

The one thing this party is really good at is turining on its leaders (sometimes with justification)and engaging in internecine strife.

Cameron's had his honeymoon. This is where it starts getting nasty.

I don't recall any voters here saying "I'll vote for you instead of Labour if you....bang on more about the EU/have more of a pop at immigrants/privatise everything that moves"

No I don't recall anybody ever saying that either because all those things are assumed of the Conservative Party, to our advantage in respect of the EU and immigration and probably (now) to our disadvantage as regards privatisation, although that wouldn't always have been the case.

Lots of people DID care about finding a good school for their child, or getting good healthcare or childcare. We should be focussing on these issues

Yeah right. Like the Labour Party and LibeDems believe you should find a poor school for your child and that healthcare and childcare should be bad.

These bland generalisations signify total non-policies, because all parties say they believe in good schools healthcare and childcare.

The question is, how to deliver, and for us that means distinctive policies eg Grammar Schools, education vouchers and increasing healthcare choice funded by the private sector.

But you don't want to talk about those things, do you? You want Cameroon motherhood and apple pie waffle.

Vacuous waffle = lies.

Leigh will be unwise to try to take the other Cornerstoners with him over Project Cameron. In fact his analysis is mostly backwards, in that the Cameron agenda is still sound. It is, after all, virtually the same as the IDS project. But whereas IDS was let down by the Party as a whole, the Party this time is being sorely let down by Cameron's own failings of character.

Alex, you're dead right. I don't see the EU/Immigration thing as a vote loser and think our policies in these areas are about right.

The point I was making on healthcare and education wasn't that we didn't want good public services, but that at the last 2 elections we said nothing about HOW we would make them better. In fairness to Tombstone, they are proposing very sound ideas on these issues and could be a real help to the party, but that all gets drowned out by the sniping about the EU and immigration (policy areas we already have sorted) Maybe Tombstone should view themselves more as a policy forum rather than a nostalgic pressure group.

On the hard policy vs vacuous waffle issue, we're all frustrated that we're only making the mood music at the moment, but consider this:

1) Our next opponent, Broon, hasn't taken over yet and will present a change of style and policy.

2) We don't yet know what state the country/economy will be in.

3) We don't even know when the election will be.

4) Bliar is a lame duck so there's no point wasting ammo on him.

5) The Conservative "brand" was so tainted, that a period of renewal was required just in order to get peoplpe to listen to us. DC has done that.

6) If we do come out with policies now, Labour will nick them.


I don't suppose anyone will be reading this post, now, as it may well have run its course, but, for the record, I have added the rest of my name to my soubriquet so that I am not accused of being anonymous. This is as a direct result of reading Tam's and Matt's post above.

Also for the record I am a Conservative councillor in Milton Keynes and a real person. Whatever my views, be they despised, supported or rejected, they are honestly expressed and, hopefully, thought through as a contribution to the postings.

I did not vote for D Cameron, who pledged to take the MEPs out of the EPP group (as an extremely EU-sceptic I would leave Europe to-morrow if not now) but voted for D Davis (who specifically said the MEPs should remain within the EPP). The reason was that Davis gave an absolutely straight answer to a question I put to him, DC did not (and as he finished speaking, a chap standing next to me turned to me and said, "He didn't answer your question, did he". So it wasn't just me trying to figure out what DC had just said!).

It was also apparent that Cameron, as much due to the Press' feeding frenzy as anything, was going to romp home and Davis, an extremely able euro-sceptic right-winger in my view, ought to garner some votes to give some strength to his elbow - imagine what sort of standing he would be in at the Despatch box without at least some sort of showing from the leadership election.

Sadly, Dr Fox fell before he had a chance to stand before the full membership, otherwise I would have voted for him purely on the MEP position alone (and, having met him at a 'do', felt he was worthy of my vote).

Well, that's me. Now we have to look forward and I am coming round more and more to the view that Cameron is getting results.

Evidence of this is apparent from our local elections last year and out on the doorsteps now, where people are coming round to voting Conservative. I am personally hopeful that a membership drive will get results and who could have said that last year?

I also get the impression that the sceptical views on Europe have at last been noticed. UKIP's threat is acknowledged and I think that EU-sceptic straws in the wind (and that's all we want, preceding the mighty, behind-the-scenes b*llock-kicking of the EU once we are in government) may be seen soon.

Of course the reneging on that leadership promise has done Cameron immense harm and no amount of mealy-mouthed explanations about other groups wanting us to stay our hand until 2009 etc etc will undo the damage. And he apparently caved-in to the MEP rebellion. (Personally, I am counting the hours to the MEP selection committee meetings).

So I am staying my hand to see what May's local election results bring. And we really have to see how things stand - Brownie is an unknown quantity and there are at least 2-3 years to go before the next GE if Brownie doesn't call a snap election so all talk of getting rid of Cameron is just plain ridiculous.

Lastly, apologies about a long post.

A good post 'though Don. I agree with most of what you write and hope we see more of you on this blog in future.

Malcolm, Ta!

"And yet again this site descends into infighting.... How depressing."

A spat between Conservatives and UKIP trolls is not infighting

Anybody calling himself Hoopla is a Troll, whichever party he thinks he represents.

Sound comments from Don Hoyle, spoilt only by a slight nod towards Cameron. Don't risk it Don.

Here's what William Rees-Mogg had to say about Cameron v Brown, and he's so right.

But the present circumstances are abnormal, and exceptionally favourable to the Conservatives. The Government is a shambles, the Iraq war is unpopular, the Labour Party is split, the Prime Minister is waiting to retire, Gordon Brown, though heir apparent, is not in charge, the police are in Downing Street. Apart from the later years of the Major Government, which were followed by a Labour landslide, there has been no situation quite so discouraging.

In these circumstances the Conservatives could expect to have moved well into the lead, as the Labour Party was for most of the 1990s. Indeed, they need to have a substantial lead. If the Labour Party can survive its disastrous situation, it may reasonably expect to recover when it has pulled itself together under a new leader.

No one can be sure how the country will respond to Gordon Brown as Prime Minister. It is possible that he will seem too Scottish, too grim and too severe, but he is certainly not a negligible figure. He has greater intellectual force than David Cameron or than Tony Blair. For the Conservatives, the most disturbing YouGov figures are that 26 per cent of voters regard Mr Cameron as a lightweight, while 21 per cent think the same of Tony Blair. Only 9 per cent see Mr Brown in that way.

Alex, I am very impressed with your last two messages in this thread! Excellently written!

Don's post was thoughtful and why I still visit this site despite all the unthinking negative stuff and abuse. I tend to agree with most of what he says. I also have found on the doors that DCs appraoch is bringing back a section of the voters (some of those that I think we lost in 97). However I admit it is upsetting a much smaller minority of voters who want us to be more "shrill" (can't think of another word but think this gets over the essence of it). Looked at crudely we are gaining a net advantage but I would admit we are in a hard transition stage. Mainly I feel that we have no choice but to go forward with this if we are to renew and gain strength for the future with younger mnore open-minded followers. However I do think this transition could perhaps be handled better with more explanation of the strategy and our priniciples and slightly better choice of words. However again I do think we have to move forward or die and broadly we are heading in the right direction. I like the "social responsibility" focus but want to see more practical explanation of this for the public and a bit more depth and grit. I think this is going to come. I accpet that if we give detail Labour will nick it. I like Don generally go with the strategy and I am working hard to make it work and succeed.

Matt

Alex, I am very impressed with your last two messages in this thread! Excellently written!

Thanks Jorgen but most of the last post was actually written by William Rees-Mogg!

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