Edward Leigh's latest attack on Project Cameron will test unity of Cornerstone

FreeDictionary.com defines Don Quixote as "An impractical idealist bent on righting incorrigible wrongs."   Edward Leigh MP, quickly emerging as Mr Cameron's most outspoken critic from the Tory benches, has compared Project Cameron to Don Quixote's escapades.

Writing for the House Magazine, Mr Leigh lists the ways in which Mr Cameron has offended traditional Tory sensibilities:

"This is the year that Conservative spokesmen have:

• Adopted Aneurin Bevan as a role model (he who vowed to destroy us and described us as 'vermin';
• Praised left-wing Polly Toynbee's view of society;
• Snubbed the CBI;
• Pleaded understanding for marauding hoodies;
• Announced that we, not Labour, were the real defenders of an unreformed NHS, the last Soviet-style, centrally-controlled health service in any large country;
• Rejected tax cuts, despite the biggest tax hike in peacetime history;
• Criticised grammar schools;
• Turned down the volume on Euroscepticism to the inaudible."

While praising Mr Cameron's personal qualities the Chairman of the powerful Public Accounts Committee warns that the party is in danger of "taking our core vote for granted and in the process effectively disenfranchising millions of decent people who feel that none of the mainstream parties speak for them."  He continues:

"Our Euroscepticism is deliberately confused with crude nationalism, when in fact we want to help the Third World by breaking down trade barriers.  And why did the leader's speech at the party conference not mention immigration at all, when in the last few years we have undergone the greatest-ever wave of increasing immigration into our country?"

Part of the reason Edward Leigh is listened to is because of his leadership of the forty-strong Cornerstone group of Tory MPs.  The Cornerstone group is not necessarily united in its concerns about Project Cameron, however.  One member of the group resigned last week and Cornerstone's co-founder - John Hayes MP -  is known to be much more favourable to the party's direction.

Comments

[michael mcgough]

I spy a conservative!

[Blue Centre Forward]

I forecast further resignations from Cornerstone. There is no appetite amongst the parliamentary party for these kind of attacks on the Conservative leadership.

[TomTom]

Why is it so wrong for different groups to express opinions ? This is the essence of discussion - we used to have vibrant discussions in TV studios between politicians, and to have lively debate. Why is there this desire for Leninist rigidity in political parties ?

There was a time in 1950s, 1960s, 1970s when people argued their case in public before the Thought Police demanded obedience to The Party Line.

Had we had more open debate after the 1975 EEC Referendum and on matters such as Immigration - the country might not be the overwound spring of frustration it is today.

[Nikki C]

It's good to see that there are some true Conservatives left in the Parliamentary Party and that they are speaking out against the appalling madnesss that is going on at present.

I wonder if ordinary members can join Cornerstone. We the majority of ordinary Conservatives need to create a unified opposition to Cameron's activities.

What we need to say to this man is 'This far and no further'

If only Maggie were still well enough to intervene!

[Cranmer]

Cornerstone is itself a broad coalition. These comments should not cause resignations at all, not least because Mr Leigh was elected their leader because his views are broadly in tune with those of other members.

Of course he is entitled to voice his opinion - as Mr TomTom observes, it is only through discussion and disagreement that a Party moves forward. The last thing one wants, at a time when the Anglican Communion faces schism, is for Cornerstone to fracture into ineffectual denominations...

[Blue Centre Forward]

Do Cornerstone hold elections Cranmer? I suspect people have joined an organisation founded by Leigh and Hayes.

[Prentiz]

I think there's a rather dangerous difference between Cornerstones arguing within the party for their point of view, and this sort of public criticism, which can only benefit our opponents. Comments like "Snubbed the CBI and "Pleaded understanding for marauding hoodies" are downright disingenuous - effectively accepting the characterisation of Cameron's actions deployed by other parties.

There is certainly a case for the more conservative elements of the Conservative party to have a say - but that should take the form of rationale policy. This sort of ad hominem stuff actually undermines that case - making it easier to write off those who espouse it as cranks and nutters.

[Ted]

Mr Leigh obviously only browses the Sun & Mail from these comments and in publishing them only gives comfort to the Party's ebemies rather than openingg a debate -
Snubbed the CBI? DC went to Iraq rather than a speaking engagement, I'm supportive of that choice.
Praised Polly Toynbee? Used a single example from Toynbee of how to view relative poverty - agreed this was a change from Moore's views of the 80's and some still believe in a safety net for absolute poverty but it certainly wasn't praise as Polly recognised herself.
Pleaded for understanding of marauding hoodies? Gave a speech saying that we needed to understand the causes of such behaviour so we could reduce crime, while also supporting much more active action against and punishment of criminals.

[Perdix]

Total rubbish from Edward Leigh. A Tory said Polly had ONE good idea!Typical achievement of life-time socialists.

[Ted]

ebemies = enemies
openingg = opening
Shouldn't comment while on an audio-conference.... :-(

[michael mcgough]

"there is certainly a case for the more conservative elements of the Conservative party to have a say "

How magnanimous!

[Andrew Price]

If Edward Leigh Test is unhappy then Cameron is most definitely on the correct path in his quest to win over us floating voters in the 'sensible centre'.

[George Earle]

If Edward Leigh's House magazine article is put on the Cornerstone group's website it may reassure watchers thereof that this group of gallant 'Eurosceptics' is not totally moribund. The last press release there is dated 2/10/06.

[John Moss]

I would have more time for the so-called "traditional" conservatives if they actually campaigned for answers that are relevant today rather than being simply reactionary in calling for the restoration of the status quo ante.

Sweden has education vouchers, not grammar schools, Germany has a modern social health insurance system, not tax-relief for those escaping the state system. If we had both, together with reformed welfare, we could have as much "immigration" as the market would stand because anybody coming to this country would have no right to state welfare unless they paid in first.

I know some of the Cornerstone guys are in agreement with this kind of right-liberal agenda, but Leigh, particularly, seems bent on allowing the BBC to keep its "Tory Split Story" file open.

And this from a man who at Bournemouth in 2004 said that Blair wasn't all that bad!

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

I'm totally fed up with members - be they MPs or branch secretaries - that cannot say anything constructive about our Leader and the Party's direction. Let's unite and turn our fire on our real enemies: Labour and the Fib Dems.

[LeighforUKIP]

Nikki C - You need to leave the party if you want to oppose Cameron. There is no 'we' who want to stop Cameron.

Edward Leigh is a baffoon, just look at him, he sums up everything the public think is wrong about the Tory party, he's greasy, slimey, snotty nosed and comes across as arrogant and uncaring.

About time WE the true Conservatives stood up to this out of touch minority and defended the best leader we have had in years, the only one who has delivered us a consistant lead in the polls, made us look less nasty and actually set the agenda.

The Conservative Party is best when it is at its broadest, Disraeli knew that and so did Maggie for much of her reign. Extreme right wing dogma such as that which comes from Edward Leigh simply makes us look and sound like a nasty party that is anti everything and everyone. It's about time we started been pro some things too.

[ToMTom]

Germany has a modern social health insurance system,

Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Now there is a man totally out of touch with Germany's current situation - maybe you should watch some sabine Christiansen and get to see what is actually happening........Germany is disappearing down the plughole and is turning into the GDR

[Thatcherite]

John Hayes, from his FCS days, has a reputation for dealing with the wets (at the expense of true Thatcherites) to further his personal ambitions. That led to him being known as one of the Shits. No change!

[Thatcherite]

John Moss should note that David Willetts has ruled out both grammar schools are education vouchers. He is another bogus "Thatcherite" who has sold out to the Wets to further his career.

[ToMTom]

Germany has a modern social health insurance system,

Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Now there is a man totally out of touch with Germany's current situation - maybe you should watch some sabine Christiansen and get to see what is actually happening........Germany is disappearing down the plughole and is turning into the GDR

[matt wright]

I would have actually debated this seriously accept that Leigh lists slogans that the Labour party invented like the "Hug a Hoodie" nonsense that Cameron did not say. More often that not the "right" seem to talk themselves into a fury about things, that when you read Camerons speeches, he didn't say. Very strange,

Matt

[jorgen]

Wow, music to my ears: real Conservative policies!

[Andrew Young]

"Edward Leigh is a baffoon, just look at him, he sums up everything the public think is wrong about the Tory party, he's greasy, slimey, snotty nosed and comes across as arrogant and uncaring."

While personal attacks do not contribute to the debate, I do have to agree with you on this one.

[Thatcherite]

"greasy, slimey, snotty nosed and comes across as arrogant" - that's Old Etonian Dave to a T!

[jorgen]

Andrew, you may enjoy the personal attack on Leigh and I will admit that I have never agreed much with him in the past, but you forget that what he is putting forward is the groups opinion.

[Sean Fear]

I'm not entirely sure what a "baffoon" is but it sounds interesting.

Justin, you never cease to denigrate party members who don't share your left wing views, so I think you should follow your own advice.

[Scotty]

Timing of his article is interesting!

Just remind me which part of the Conservative party elected him spokesperson for the ordinary members, and does he believe in accepting the democratic choice of the membership or is that to be ignored?
So while the many foot soldiers are out campaigning for the party in the May elections he and his cabal are plotting and sniping to undermine the leadership in Westminster.
I have watched this happening in Scotland and it really is the most bl**dy frustrating and unappetizing spectacle.
And as for this comment ""taking our core vote for granted and in the process effectively disenfranchising millions of decent people who feel that none of the mainstream parties speak for them."
That is exactly what Edward Leigh and others within the Westminster party have been doing for years.
At the moment the conservative party gets paid to be the opposition to the government not each other!!!!

[malcolm]

Edward Leigh sometimes does his cause or the Cornerstone group no favours at all. This is one of those times. As other commentators have noted his comments re Toynbee, the CBI, and the NHS are disingenious in the extreme. The comment re Hoodies merely swallows Labour party spin hook line and sinker. What Leigh hopes to achieve is beyond me. Cornerstone would I think, do well to choose another spokesman.

[ukfirst]

Edward Leigh's crack about Cameron not even mentioning immigration at the conference is telling. Spin has replaced honesty.

[Og]

If Cameron's idea is for a broad tent, he has to keep people like Leigh reasonably happy. Not necessarily by adopting a Cornerstone manifesto, but by engaging the Tory right, recognising their complaints and telling them why he he does not wish to take (much of/any of) their advice and what he intends to do instead.

But because Cameron is contemptuous of the Right, a gulf has opened up. I fear that if we get to a hung parliament or small Tory majority, this will get very nasty indeed and make Major's problems with the "bastards" look like small fry.

It needn't have reached this stage. Had Cameron and Maude not overegged the Leftward rush to such an extent, the Right would be onside, UKIP would threaten very few Tories in marginal seats and we would be commanding 42% at least in the polls. My money is on Tory schism within 5 years. I thought EU would be the trigger, but there are plenty of other competing ideological breaking points, some of them appearing in the Leigh list at the top of this post.

[CDM]

Mr. Leigh appears to prefer the theatre of opposition to the business of government.

[Tam Large]

It shows how incredibly far the Party has moved to the left when people describe Edward Leigh's list above of affronts to moderate centre right core polices, as "extreme right-wing"!

As for "unite behind Dave" arguments: it is better that his less-cowed MPs warn him where he is going wrong, than have the voters do it in a couple of years' time. How many times do people like Mr Leigh have to remind that voters are sick of Blair politics, before it will sink in. The Blair route is a dead end - the voters have seen the emptiness of it, and want something better - Dave is giving them more Blair.

Madness.

[CDM]

The Right is on side! If it wasn't the Party would have lost 50,000+ members in the past few months, as well as 10% in the opinion polls.

Has it?

[Margaret on the Gullotine]

Cameron isn't contemptuous of the right, but if they spin the sort of unthought-out stuff that Leigh has said, then he might do so with justification.

Of course it is essential to have inter-party debate and Cornerstone has a role in that - but this sort of drivel isn't constructive and only helps the enemy. Time Leigh got his head screwed on.

[jorgen]

Og: My money is on Tory schism within 5 years. I thought EU would be the trigger

Yes. This is not necessarily a bad thing. The two parties can cooperate and will at each election compete to become the dominant group.
UKIP will also disappear.

And, Tam, I agree fully.

[CDM]

Let's not have any more facile comparisons of Cameron with Blair; if they were valid, why would we have a lead in the polls? Only Labour's core vote doesn't hate Blair now.

[Scotty]

"UKIP would threaten very few Tories in marginal seats and we would be commanding 42% at least in the polls."
Og, UKIP are not a threat to the party and never have been. This myth is part of the reason that we remained so low in the polls for many years and why after 3 GE defeats we still have less than 200 members.
If your suggestion had any basis of fact we would made the big jump in parliamentary seats and poll ratings back before the 2005' GE, and then fell back when Cameron was elected.
This claim about being at 42% in the polls had we followed your strategy is laughable.

[Martin Smith]

The Tombstoners are just like the whole party was pre-Cameron - the louder and shriller they shout, the less people tune in, so the louder and shriller they shout, and so the less....

[Richard Carey]

Regarding Leigh sounding off again: I stated when he said something similar last week how disappointing it was that he had to adopt this strident approach – I can only assume it is sheer arrogance that has led him to do it again. I hope that if he carries on in this vein, then behind the scenes he will be invited to a meeting with the Chief Whip – and I wouldn’t count on coffee. For any of our parliamentarians to be parroting Labour spin on the policies of the current leadership is beyond parody.

It is a shame, as Leigh’s evident venom at the Party’s current direction does his group no favours. I was most unhappy with the “recruiting sergeant for UKIP” coverage of their meetings at the last Party Conference, for example. While I don’t personally agree with a lot of the output from Cornerstone, they do have interesting things to say on some issues such as social justice that at least deserve to be part of the debate and would get a better hearing if Leigh & Co turned down the volume.

[malcolm]

Not sure why people like Tam Large and Michael Mcgough contribute to threads like this. They have left the party and support another party which if it does well will enable Labour to stay in power beyond the next election.Presumably they wish the Conservative party and its members nothing but ill which should be borne in mind when reading their posts.

[Alex Forsyth]

Amusing to see the Camerloons squealing with indignation at Edward's timely words. Possibly they haven't yet got over the weekend revelations about Cameron.

Edward speaks for Britain and he speaks for at least 80% of the Conservative Party. As I said previously it's time for an all-out battle with the Camerloons and things are beginning to shape up well.

Thatcherite, I do recall the unreliability of Hayes, although he is in many ways "one of us". Do you recall the famous song about a part of his anatomy sung to the tune "John Brown's Body"?

[CDM]

Surely members of other parties should not be allowed to post on a website that ostensibly speaks for the Tory grassroots?

[yogring]

Leighforukip made the comment that Edward Leigh's comments were extreme right wing. To be fair, everything Edward Leigh has said is entirely in tune with what Margaret Thatcher stood for. It was Mrs T that inspired me to be a Conservative. Many people say that what Cameron is doing, is "moving to the centre ground", and "recognising Britain as it is today". No, what Mr Cameron and his "modernisers" are doing is moving the party leftwards by becoming a social democratic party. Now if leighforukip is happy for that to happen, then he should call himself a big C, not a small c Conservative. For those of us small c conservatives who believed that Thatcherism was right for the time and is right for now, we will have to look elsewhere for our leadership, and for those big C Conservatives who see lower taxation, controlled immigration, law and order and any challenge to the Stalinist monolith that is the NHS as "extreme right wing", will be happy to take this country back to the 60's / 70's post war concensus. Cameron, Letwin and Maude are leading you down the garden path. What they are basically saying to you is that we weren't elected in the past three elections by being conservatives, so we will drop all our principles, call it modernisation, and become Blairite, purely to get into government, power for power's sake. Politics is extremely depressing in this country. Now that the Tories have become the SDP, there is no choice.

[CDM]

Mr. Forsytrh, could you give some evidence about Mr. Leigh's popularity, both in the party and the country at large?

[matt wright]

I agree with Richard, there are some useful things Cornerstone say but those views are totally lost in this ridiulous list that actually repeats Labour spin!

I know some on this site think I just blindly support Cameron actually I don't agree with everything he says but broadly agree with the approach. I am also anti-EU but share Redwoods view that there are those so obsessed with the issue that they are helping Labour and the EU rather than enabling us to tackle this.

I do think the party has to change. The shrill traditional message was not working and only serves to make a small core of people feel comfortable while frightening away many others. This is a paradox for the party but one we have to tackle if we are going to have a future. The world is not the same as when Thatcher came to power and we need new solutions for a new situation. On the streets now there is a lot of support from a fresh group of people that turned away from us in 1997, especially women.

I know that some of the old-style Conservatives find new ideas a bit threatening and maybe Cameron needs to re-double his efforts at explaining his approach. However the deliberate negativity, deliberate stirring and nasty personal posts from a growing minority on this site does not serve real debate and does not help the party move forward and it is sad that the Editor has allowed the site to degenerate so much. The truth is that this elemnt do not want rational debate about taking the party forward but actually want to destroy the party (as some actually have the honesty to admit).

Matt

[Will]

Didn't the majority of Cornerstone vote for Cameron ?

Leigh also backed Heseltine in 1990, so he doesn't have the best track record.

They got what they voted for, so no use them complaining now.

[Richard Carey]

As I said previously it's time for an all-out battle with the Camerloons and things are beginning to shape up well.

That's strange, Alex - I thought it was time for an all-out battle to capture some council seats in May from Labour and the LibDems.

But then you and I seem to have different priorities.

Surely members of other parties should not be allowed to post on a website that ostensibly speaks for the Tory grassroots?

While I sometimes worry about opposition contributors on here being quoted out of context in the MSM, I think the wonder of blogging is that you can post on here and be an idiot. But if you do, you should be prepared for six other people to shoot you down and tell you exactly why you're an idiot. Hopefully debate self-regulates itself like this, and we come out stronger for it - anything more, past the point that it breaks the comment guidelines, is obviously dealt with by the Editor.

[Alex Forsyth]

Surely members of other parties should not be allowed to post on a website that ostensibly speaks for the Tory grassroots?

Very inclusive, CDM, and very democratic if I may say so.

Almost as democratic as "Malcolm" (presumably not his real name) who suggested that I should be thrown out of the party for daring to criticise Cameron, or perhaps more pertinently for arguing with "Malcolm" the Magnificent.

I daresay I've been a member of the party a lot longer than these whinging specimens and have worked harder for it than any of them. "Tory" leftists have a well-earned reputation for sitting on their backsides and expecting everybody else to do the work.

The "Tory" left now emerge as a tiny and frightened fraction of the British population, terrified that Cameron's wafer-thin lead will vanish like a morning mist, which I don't doubt it will when Brown takes over.

When Thatcher ruled, we radical Thatcherites walked tall. Since the disaster years of the contemptible Major the Tory Party has become a stage for political dwarfs, laughable anoraks who are the butt of every joke going. These gutless leftist fools have destroyed our party.

We need a party of pride, vision and ambition. A party that can rise above the filthy mess that is Britain today and create a Britain that is great again.

The morally bankrupt puppets who post here in support of Cameroon offer a one-way ticket to ruin.

[CDM]

Perhaps he never ventures outside Royal Tunbridge Wells, but Mr. Forsyth is very wrong if he thinks constant invocations of the Blessed Margaret is going to win us another election.

He also claims to have worked "harder" for the party than any of the "gutless leftist fools". It obviously wasn't hard enough, or we wouldn't have been thumped in 97, 01 and 05.

[Richard Carey]

I daresay I've been a member of the party a lot longer than these whinging specimens and have worked harder for it than any of them.

In that case, Alex, you should be adult enough to take a deep breath and calm down. The manner in which you're posting is doing none of us any favours at the moment and is not helping get your argument across.

[yogring]

Richard Carey asks Alex to calm down!! Richard, have you seen the party website? NH yes? Labour cuts? Campaigns about Labour cuts in spending belong on the SWP website, and you ask Alex to take a deep breath? I can see the future: Conservatives.com(sponsered by unison). Alex is as disgusted as me at what our party has become.

[Thatcherite]

CDM is a fool. We lost by a landslide because the distastrous "H" block (Hurd, Hezza, Howe etc) led the EMS entry chorus under Thatcher. The result was Major's Black Wednesday (with Dave as Lamont's Special Adviser) and the public never forgave us.

I suspect that Gordon Brown is sitting on Dave's policy papers from that time. One broadsheet reported that Cameron wrote a paper that advocated that Britain join the Euro. If he did, he is toast.

[HF]

What was the point of Leigh writing this? He even quotes things provided by Labour's spin doctors as the truth!

Did he expect to improve our political fortunes? Surely not as he just provides bullets for our opposition.

The point of this piece was feeding the ego of Edward Leigh at the expense of David Cameron.

What a twerp.

[matt wright]

I agree with CDM, Alex needs to get out more. People from all backgrounds of the Party work very hard for it and very loyally and will continue to do so. At the moment we are working our socks off for the May elections. Feedback is excellent, genuinely so, but he seems to be more interested in deliberately causing damage. I wonder why?

Matt

[Thatcherite]

Matt Wright wrote "I am also anti-EU but share Redwood's view that there are those so obsessed with the issue that they are helping Labour and the EU rather than enabling us to tackle this."

Which John Redwood are we talking about - the author of Eurosceptic books or the one who sold out his principles to Ken Clarke during the 1997 leadership election in exchange for the promise of the Shadow Chencellorship?

It seems that the latter has re-emerged in recent months, presumably in the vain hope of a Shadow Cabinet position. Sad!!

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Sean, what planet are you on? I called for the Party to unite and turn its fire on our enemies (Lab and the Lib Dems) and you respond with a personal attack on me.

For someone with political ambitions in London, I would have thought you would be trying to get people on board rather than alienating them…

[Og]

"Og, UKIP are not a threat to the party and never have been." Scotty.

I didn't say that UKIP threatened the Conservative Party, I said that Tory candidates in marginals were threatened. This is not surmise, but fact. Study the results of the 2005 election and see how many seats had a majority over the second-placed Tory which was less than the number of votes UKIP received.

You go on: "This claim about being at 42% in the polls had we followed your strategy is laughable." I put forward no strategy; my post suggested that Cameron, for all his interpersonal skills, had appeared not to charm the Right.

An 'E' for your English Comprehension.

[Jon Gale]

"Edward speaks for Britain and he speaks for at least 80% of the Conservative Party."

And when Edward Leigh falls in water he doesn't get wet, the water gets Edward Leigh!

Seriously, Og raises an important point about "The Right" causing problems if we have a small majority, it would be wise for Cameron to try and keep Cornerstone and similar at least vaguely on board, if only by sitting down and talking with them.

But it would also be wise for those of The Right to actually read/listen to what Cameron in fact says, instead of what Labour or the front page of the Daily Mail tells them Cameron has said!

A Tory MP repeating Tony McNulty's "Hug a Hoodie" stupid soundbite is unforgivable.

[malcolm]

Malcolm the magnificent! Has a certain ring to it I think. But no 'Alex Forsyth' I am exactly who I say I am as the Editor of this blog and others who post here well know. You on the other hand have a variety of aliases haven't you? Tory Loyalist was obviously a misnomer but why did you have to stop being Mark McCartney?
Sad but predictable that this thread has gone the way of so many others recently.ie s shouting match between those who broadly support the leadership and those who appear to dislike it far more than they dislike other parties. I'm not sure if there is anything you can do Tim but it is starting to make the Diary the least interesting part of this site which is a trewmendous shame.

[Richard Carey]

Richard, have you seen the party website? NH yes? Labour cuts?... Alex is as disgusted as me at what our party has become.

Yes, good, isn't it? People care about these services. Yes, of course we need to look at providing them more efficiently and effectively, but think about the following. (I realise I might be going a little off-topic here, but this is worth taking on.)

Do you think it is right that when Trusts have overspent in an effort to meet misguided New Labour targets, Brown should demand his money back from them in the following year, leaving them in deficits, without a forward plan? I don't.

Have you had a close family member be told that they would have to wait in pain for over 20 weeks even for diagnostic tests because the unit they need to go to is about to be "reconfigured" out of existence to save money? I have.

Do you know people who work within the health service who care deeply about the health of the people they serve, bursting with ideas to improve the service they provide, only to be stymied by the structures they work in? I do.

"yogring", please don't you and your like dare to lecture me about some of the issues on which we should take on this Government.

[Scotty]

When Edward Leigh pens an article which contains factually incorrect accusations and sets out to be deliberately damaging, is he any better than some of the trolls on this site?
"Snubbed the CBI" He conveniently forgot to point out that David Cameron chose to go to visit our troops instead, at the only window of opportunity given to him and his team by the MOD.
I still find it odd that the only window of opportunity given coincided with the CBI conference, and it smacks of Gordon Brown's interference. But thanks Mr Leigh for furthering this myth and no doubt there will be chuckles in the government corridors over it.

[Thacherite]

"But it would also be wise for those of The Right to actually read/listen to what Cameron in fact says".

We do read Dave's articles and speeches and they are not Conservative - more green liberal.

[Scotty]

"But because Cameron is contemptuous of the Right"
Og, I think that my comprehension is fine, and in light of the article above I would say that it is David Leigh who is contemptuous of David Cameron.

[Alex Forsyth]

I haven't a clue who you are Malcolm, not that I could give a damn.

Tory Loyalist I've never heard of. From what I've seen of his posts Mark McCartney appears to be a sound Thatcherite but I daresay he can speak for himself. I've just checked that he hasn't posted on this thread or - surprisingly - the Cameron Drugs thread - so your blatant accusation that I am using multiple IDs to boost the Thatcherite cause falls flat on its face.

Funny how you Camerloons comfort yourself by fondly imagining that the increasing number of Conservatives who are challenging the Cameron agenda are either "UKIP trolls" or sockpuppets of some malignant mastermind.

I'm afraid you've got an unpleasant awakening in store.

[Will]

Scotty - who is David Leigh ?

[Scotty]

Malcolm, "sockpuppets" is a familiar term much loved by both Tory Loyalist and Mark McCartney.

[Cllr Francis Lankester]

Is there huge waste in public services at national level or not? That is the key question. If there is waste to be cut out, this should be done irrespective of whether we promise tax cuts.

One big problem of our times is dependence-not just low income earners but all those receiving tax credits. Why is being dependent on the state more "moral2 than being independent. I remember Keith Joseph come to Hull Univ. and routing the Left on the theme of the moral and ethical case for capitalis. You won't catch any of our lot doing that now

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Presumably you don't vote for you MP, Mr. Forsyth? For he's a Cameroonie!

[Scotty]

Will, he is a result of my typing too fast then not proofing properly.

[Jon Gale]

Thatcherite,

Edward Leigh obviously doesn't read them if he thinks Cameron was pleading for understanding of misunderstood hoodies, or praised Polly Toynbee, or rejected tax cuts ("sharing proceeds of growth between public services and lower taxes"), or snubbed the CBI, etc.

[Alex Forsyth]

Malcolm, "sockpuppets" is a familiar term much loved by both Tory Loyalist and Mark McCartney.

Is that so Scotty? Oh well that's conclusive then. I'm using three separate IDs to troll the forum and gave it all away with one slip of the tongue. Oh dear. Woe is me. Smack bottom.

Have you got a better word to describe a - er - sockpuppet then? Yes of course I'm sure you must have. You could well be one yourself.

After all, who the hell is "Scotty" when he's at home?

A dog?

[Alex Forsyth]

Presumably you don't vote for you MP, Mr. Forsyth? For he's a Cameroonie!

Really Justin? I'm not aware I mentioned the name of my MP but please impress us with your psychic powers and tell us all who he is.

[IRJMilne]

When has Cameron criticised Grammar schools? I think he said they didn't plan to build more of them - which is, unfortunately, something we're stuck with because we can't afford to create more grammar schools.

Mr Leigh makes a good Chairman of the Public Accounts committee. Speaking on these issues, he allows right wing Tories to feel they still have a voice and a place in the party. If Leigh says nothing, too much of the right wing will defect to UKIP.

He only performs a real disservice to the party in repeating soundbites like "hug a hoodie". I don't understand why he's doing that.

[Thatcherite]

Jon Gale - the proceeds of growth belong to those who created it, not the government.

Whenever I read or hear a politician use the word "share", I substitute "steal".

Cameron is proposing to increase tax revenue in real terms - that is a tax increase not a tax cut.

[Jon Gale]

Thatcherite,

As the economy grows more money goes into the Treasury, Cameron is proposing spending some of that money on public services, and some on funding tax cuts - How is that a tax increase? The extra money is coming from the growing GDP, not extra taxes. The longer a Cameron government stays in power the more taxes can be reduced. Over time the proportion of state spending will decrease. Its not as dramatic as some might wish but its a lot better than Gordon Brown.

The spending on public services may reduce the amount of tax cut, but it stops the public worrying we will slash hospitals and schools and thus means they might actually dare vote for us for a bloody change!

[Thatcherite]

Tac cuts stimulate economic growth. Dave assumes that you can must have economic growth to fund tax cuts. In a global economy, there is tax competition. Dave and Boy George are economically illiterate.

A tax increase results in increased revenues being confiscated from taxpayers. The % of GDP measure is a politician's means of deceiving the public into thinking they are paying less taxes.

Real taxation reduces when tax revenues decrease. When the economy grows, and taxation revenues decrease, tax as a per centage of GDP decreases faster.

Private school fees are often cheaper than the per capita cost of educating children in state schools. If we introduced a voucher scheme, there would be even more money for tax cuts.

[Valedictoryan]

When has Cameron criticised Grammar schools?

I'm afraid that this will be one of those unanswered questions. It seems that people frequently criticise Cameron for what they imagine he said, rather than for what he actually said.

I consider myself a Thatcherite and a Cameroon. However, it seems that some wear rose tints wrt the blessed Margaret. For example, the truth is that she approved the closure of more grammar schools than anyone before or after.

[Nikki C]

In the short time I have been on this forum I've noted a very nasty tendency at bitching (even though it's almost all male) and name-calling. It's not all one sided but most of it is coming from the Cameron support group.

Earlier today another lady asked why there were so few women on here and somebody else said she would soon find out why. He was right. This is just a madhouse of bitching and personal spite. The utterly nasty post above attacking Edward Leigh is a big example.

Im not surprised all the women have been driven away. If this is an example of what the party under Cameron has come to Im disgusted.

Another woman poster

[Thatcherite]

Cameron and Willetts have ruled out more grammar schools in several articles and interviews. They have done nothing to fight Peter Hain's closure of the remaining grammar schools in Ulster.

Thatcher closed the grammar schools when a member of Ted Heath's cabinet. She was wrong to do so but I suspect that there was a direction from Number 10.

[Prentiz]

"CDM is a fool. We lost by a landslide because the disastrous "H" block (Hurd, Hezza, Howe etc) led the EMS entry chorus under Thatcher."

Like hell we did. Most people who voted the Conservative party out of office couldn't name most of those people, and couldn't tell you what ERM stood for. The reason that the Conservative party lost office, and indeed the reason why, for the timebeing, I support Cameron wholeheartedly, is nothing to do with the policy, and everything to do with the brand. At this point I expect an anonymong chorus, whining about how even mentioning brand is to accept the Nu Labour fallacy - but that rather proves how ludicrously out of touch some people are. The reason Cameron has a chance of winning is that he has the chance to do what Edward Leigh cannot understand - to reach beyond politics and into the real world and make our party something other than party of privilege and poll tax in the minds of many voters. There are so many places in Britain where, if you are a Conservative it doesn't matter what you say or who you stand for, the party you stand for will ensure you won't get a hearing. That's what Cameron will change. Sadly, I suspect that these are places very alien to Mr Leigh and a lot of his advocates...

There's plenty of stuff I'm not overjoyed with about the new era. The cronyism of the A list, the delayed promises on Europe and the failure to see revitalising the party as extending beyond Westminster, all need to be addressed, to name but a few, and that's one of the things that really irks me about these silly comments. They do nothing to address the real issues in our party, and they make those who would like to raise them, constructively and without hurting our chances of government, look like idiots. Leigh is failing in his, self appointed, role of representing the real grass roots, in fact his ham-fisted attempts to hold the leadership to scrutiny will only make it harder, not easier, to raise the issues that need raising, and harder, not easier, for Cameron to do the job he was elected to do. If Cornerstones want to be of any positive influence, this is not the way to approach it.

[matt wright]

Nikki, I am genuinely puzzled by your post, if you had been visiting the site for a long peirod of time you would know that the anti-Cameron posts have plumbed the depths of nasty bile and some of us have tried repeatedly to have rational debates just to be faced with even more bile. Some of the people who post appear to be the same people who post as supporters of other parties that are attacking the Conservatives. Perhaps you didn't know this. Also until recently I was only vaguely aware that some people like to create a number of aliases but having checked on this it appears that this is widespread and that there are people who blog as an obsessive hobby and take all thgis to bizzare lengths as part of some lobbying technique. It is quite possible, unbeleivably so, that many of the people who post on this site are actaully the same eprson playing what we used to call at school "silly buggers". Indeed I beleive that some people who run blog sites actually create imaginary people to make posts to pereptuate their sites in some form of marketing exercsie. If you don't believe me have a look round the internet and ask. Its quite an eye opener!

Matt

[Jon Gale]

Thatcherite,

"A tax increase results in increased revenues being confiscated from taxpayers. The % of GDP measure is a politician's means of deceiving the public into thinking they are paying less taxes."

There is no tax increase!

If a company (or individual) makes a profit of $1,000,000 (I have no pound sign) in Year One, and pays 40% tax the treasury gets $400,000.

If business is good (economy is growing) they make $1,300,000 proft in Year Two, the Treasury gets $520,000 at 40% tax. Taxes have not gone up but tax revenue has.

If Osborne then cut the tax rate to 31% and at a company profit of $1,300,000 the Treasury still gets $403,000 - about the same as Year one.

If we "share" some of that extra money on public services instead of all on tax cuts, Osborne could cut the taxes to only 37% instead, then the Treasury gets $481,000 - The company still gets a 3% tax cut, AND public services have $81,000 more than in Year One.

And of course the lower taxes improves business, makes the economy grow, repeat the process. Eventualy it breaks down, but at our present level of tax that is some time away.

If the economy is not growing to start with you could cut a business tax to stimulate business that doesn't give the treasury much anyway - say a tax on share trading....

[Cllr. Robert-j M. Tasker]

LeighforUKIP @ 20.08 says -

''Extreme right wing dogma such as that which comes from Edward Leigh''

Are you being serious? do you honestly believe that what Edward Leigh has said is ''extreme right-wing dogma?''

If so, I think its you who is in the wrong party.

Editor(s) could we have the name of the MP who resigned from Cornerstone recently?

[matt wright]

Also this would take time to work through the system but just making big tax cuts immediatley, as some on here propose, is really going to mean sacking people now.

Matt

[Tam Large]

Malcolm 21.13 - "Not sure why people like Tam Large and Michael Mcgough contribute to threads like this."

We do because we are conservatives - even though we are no longer Conservatives thanks to Dave. I was a member for 34 years... more than you I might guess.

Unlike many, and yourself Malcolm, we use our own full names and do not hide behind pseudonyms or shortenings. Mature and open debate should be encouraged from all those involved. I left because of the malaise Edward Leigh is describing - so have been affected directly, along with increasing numbers of members.

[Tandy]

Edward Leigh is a nutter. He is in a safe seat and has no chance of ever having a Cabinet Job, so this is the only way he can ever get any attention. He is a shameless publcity seeker, has nothing to offer and should be de-selected.

[matt wright]

Although I don't agree with Tams views on DC I do share his view that posts should be from people who give their full names and identities. I think unless there is some control over this site it will further deteriorate,

Matt

[Scotty]

"It's not all one sided but most of it is coming from the Cameron support group." Nicci C, if you have come to that conclusion then you either have not spent enough time on this site, or you are an astro turfer/troll judging by your other comments regarding Edward Leigh and David Cameron. As for women posters, you have not been reading the comments posted here in any great detail, there are a few and they are easy to spot.
Tam, I was a LOYAL conservative voter then member of the party under Mrs T, Major, Hague, IDS and Howard before David Cameron so I will take no lectures from you on being a real conservative!
"Unlike many, and yourself Malcolm, we use our own full names and do not hide behind pseudonyms or shortenings. Mature and open debate should be encouraged from all those involved." I defend my right to use a pseudonym on this site when I see some of the personal attacks which take place here, I also will not post my real email address until there is a privacy policy in place.

I would like to echo the comments of Richard Carey, Malcolm, Matt Wright and Prentiz who I think reflect the vast majority of the party who keep giving David Cameron such a high personal rating despite the constant whinging on this site.

[FreeSpeaker]

So yet another toff has his nose put out of joint by the cameron camp. These people should get real, get lives and get on with the job of running the country. Self-serving tosser.

[FreeSpeaker]

another thing.... why does this site and all the blogs associated to 18 tory street all look and feel the same? is it because tim montgomerie is behind them all and 18 tory street too? trying to set up a little blogosphere all on your own eh? got no real friends to play with? i would be worried about the future of the left, but your record of delivery is just rubbish. look at this shite for example... total unfocussed rubbish, same with 18 tory street and all those crap blogs that don't even work any way. how pretentious are you? i bet you're so pretentious that this comment will somehow get deleted...... you claim to be a traditional conservativ but you wouldnt dare let people criticise you, you call tim ireland a nutter but its you thats the nutter with all your crappy little projects and attempt to create your own little movement. they'll fail and labour and the left wil remain strong. the tories wont win the next gen election because the country still wont trust you and its people like you that make people truly believe that.

[ToMTom]

because we can't afford to create more grammar schools.

but Non-Selective Academies can be built with a billion or two of public money.....

[Plekhanov]

"Richard Carey, Malcolm, Matt Wright and Prentiz who I think reflect the vast majority of the party"

All four of them? Sounds about right - NOT!

Leigh speaks for the majority of Tories, the silent majority which the proto-Cameroons were insulting as The Nasty Party.
Judging by some posts above they havent stopped.

[jorgen]

matt wright: anti-Cameron posts have plumbed the depths of nasty bile

Yes, I can see that:

Two Camerloons argued: Edward Leigh is a baffoon, just look at him, he sums up everything the public think is wrong about the Tory party, he's greasy, slimey, snotty nosed and comes across as arrogant and uncaring

[Alex Forsyth]

Is a "baffoon" a classic definition of a Camerloon?

In reply to Nikki, reading through the above thread, I find endless hysterical personal abuse emanating from the Cameron Mafia and absolutely nothing that could be so described coming from Thatcherites and Traditional Tories.

Game set and match to the Thatcherites and to that courageous Christian Tory Edward Leigh.

We need more like him!

[Graeme Archer]

When you've all finished shouting at each other, maybe someone would like to point out that the worst thing this stupid Tory MP has done is to repeat a shedload of Labour guff about us. I think only one of his assertions - about grammar schools - is even vaguely factually correct, and even then only in a tortuous manner. If Cornerstone can't find anything more constructive to do with their undoubted abilities, I suggest they spend more time looking after their constituents' interests, and less time demonstrating the limits of their political outlook.

Compare Leigh's outputs with those from IDS' CSJ. There you have a strand of Conservatism which is distinct to some of those represented by our leadership. But IDS/CSJ haven't wasted their time repeating Labour rubbish about Cameron. They have influenced the views of many Conservatives by showing how community leadership can have a dramatic impact on quality of life. They have therefore mainstreamed the "social justice" agenda - which can easily come across as anathema to non-authoritarian types - into one of the cores of our party's thinking (social responsibility). When those people speak on a subject from a perspective which is not naturally my own, I listen, from respect and genuine interest. When someone like Leigh shows off in this way, I do not.

[Giles McNeill]

I live in Edward Leigh's Gainsborough Constituency.

I'm a member of the local association.

I've voted for the man twice (I'm 25).

I'm even helping out with the local elections in May.

I don't remember when I cast my vote for Edward back in the general election that I was supporting a candidate who was going to attack his own party's leadership.

I almost didn't vote for him based on his response to my question to him about his position on Lords Reform - but that is another issue.

Labour know that united parties win election; after all they learnt it the hard way. I know this. Does Edward?

[John Irvine]

"the worst thing this stupid Tory MP has done is to repeat a shedload of Labour guff about us"

"Us" being you the Cameroon, or perhaps I should say Camerloon minority clique of socialist saboteurs within our party.

I would put money on it that Giles McNeill doesn't live in EL's constituency, assuming he exists at all, which I doubt.

Otherwise who put him up to suddenly appearing here for the very first time just on the day EL happens to be discussed?

I think I may write to Leigh to ask whether this person exists.

In the meantime we True Conservatives need to give our full support to Cornerstone. Is it possible for ordinary members (I am now just a ward Chairman) to join this group?

[MH]

This is disgraceful. I thought Dave had purged the Party of all traditional Conservatives. He should arrange Leigh's deselection immediately.

[jorgen]

Labour know that united parties win election; after all they learnt it the hard way. I know this. Does Edward?

Does Cameron?

[Gospel of Enoch]

"CDM is a fool. We lost by a landslide because the disastrous "H" block (Hurd, Hezza, Howe etc) led the EMS entry chorus under Thatcher. Like hell we did."

Sure you did. People don't like interest rates hitting 15%, or the subsequent recession... the may not know the names, but they sure remembered the effect of what they did...