"Deer stalker Dave can fell two stags with one shot"

That's a headline from tomorrow's Mail on Sunday. Simon Walters opens by saying:

"David Cameron risks offending animal rights campaigners after details of his secret passion for stag shooting, one of the bloodiest field sports, were revealed."

I'm actually quite impressed.  As the article continues: "[Cameron] is one of the few marksmen skilled enough to shoot two stags in one go."

Sunday morning (8.45am) update: "The disclosure about Mr Cameron's involvement in deer stalking comes after the Independent on Sunday revealed that he was disciplined at Eton for smoking cannabis and also published details of Mr Cameron's membership of the elite Oxford drinking society, the Bullingdon Club.  The exclusive, all-male dining society was notorious for drinking and high jinks. Mr Cameron was photographed in 1987 with other members of the society wearing a royal blue tail coat with ivory lapels. Labour intends to use the group photograph in its general election literature."

6.45pm Sunday update: USES FOR DAVID CAMERON'S SHOOTING SKILLS...

Hat-tip: Curly.

Comments

[ONG]

Good Grief, a Bambi - blaster!! Could it be any worse?

[Geoff]

Offending animal "rights" campaigners should be a badge of honour for any right-thinking person.

Two stags in one shot? I admire the skill. Hopefully this shows that his pledge to re-legalise foxhunting is sincere.

[Arthurian Legend]

"Conservative chiefs will hope that news of his hunting and shooting exploits..."

Justin Hinchcliffe assures me that 'hunting and shooting' means something entirely different in certain circles...

I trust that Mr Cameron hasn't been up to any of those type of exploits.

[David Anthony]

Uh oh. Drip, drip, drip. Drugs, blood sports, ... Middle England will not be pleased.

[David Anthony]

...Just make sure he never goes out with Dick Cheney!

[Yet Another Anon]

Good Grief, a Bambi - blaster!! Could it be any worse?
I imagine the first huntsperson of any sort to lead the Conservative Party or in fact any of the main parties since Alec Douglas Home, maybe it will get in the Countryside Alliance vote? I'm sure it will have a big effect on many both ways but mostly cancelled out on either side, there is more public opposition to the act prohibiting hunting than there had been whereas there is no sign of more people being hostile to hunting, personally I think the huntsmen and saboeturs should hunt each other and leave everyone else in peace, in the film The Most Dangerous Game starring Joel McCrea, Fay Wray and Leslie Banks, Count Zaroff played by Leslie Banks decides to trap people on the island and hunt them on the grounds that human beings are the most dangerous and therefore interesting things to hunt - it could be one possible use for convicts, the state could charge people to hunt convicts with dogs and there could be armed guards around the perimeter ready to gun down any escaping felons in an area fenced off with an electric fence.

[Matt Davis]

Trouble is that it won't be hard for the left to spin this as a contradiction of the Vote Blue Go Green agenda, especially stag shooting which can't even really be viewed as vermin control like fox hunting can be. Ok thankfully the Cameron/Chameleon thing didn't work for Labour but Cameron must be very wary of a lack of consistency or appearance of hypocrisy on the green agenda and, rightly or wrongly, that agenda and matters such as hunting are tied together in the minds of your average townie voter.

[cleo]

As a potential supporter this certainly puts me off. It just does not sit well with compassionate Conservatism, the vote blue/environment agenda and will be alien to many potential voters.

[Afleitch]

Actually deer culling is required but people who don't understand the complexities behind it are causing more harm than good. Deer have no natural predator (we no longer have the wolf) and they are prone to overpopulation. Deer not only graze heavily, they often uproot saplings and shrubbery, decimating woodland and destroying it's delicate habitat. The only acts that keep their population down is either hunting or being rammed by a car. It's not pretty, but it has to be done.

[Phil Whittington]

Little did that hoodie know when he gestured to Mr Cameron as if to fire at him that the Tory leader is a better shot than he will ever be!

Personally I would not feel comfortable shooting animals, but I have time for the argument that it as least as humane as other ways of culling the deer population.

As long as Cameron is libertarian in other areas of policy (which I think he will be), it would be nice if we all accepted he has the right to do things that not all of us wish to do.

I fear that this hands ammunition to Labour, though. Many seem to think that Brown will make the mistake of over-playing the class divide between himself and Cameron. However, whether the public decide he is doing so depends on how much Brown says in proportion to how many "toffish" things (Eton, Bullingdon, fox-hunting, stag shooting etc) are known about DC. Each time more becomes known, Brown looks to be making less fuss relative to "the facts" and stands on slightly safer ground. Put differently, he can say more for the same political risk.

I assume he has declared all "toff" material to someone at CCO and they have worked on a response for each one breaking.

Let's hope so...

[Opinicus]

If I had a moor, I dare say I might shoot stags myself but its not very modern or metrosexual is it?

And I thought I was supposed to be the backwoodsman and banned from the A list accordingly. Are we reforming the Party for the benefit of the press and public or aren't we?

Perhaps it's alright to hunt stags if you have a moor but not alright to want to hunt them if you don't. I was obviously very wrong about 1974 its back all the way to 1774 and the Whig ascendancy.

[Yet Another Anon]

I assume he has declared all "toff" material to someone at CCO and they have worked on a response for each one breaking.
I imagine he probably doesn't know, in much the same way as people frequently don't because things in the culture they are immersed in seem so natural to them - a sort of reverse Eliza Doolittle, I have a vision of someone at CCHQ going through a checklist with him and asking him what he does or doesn't do and pointing out how toffish each is perceived. Of course Margaret Thatcher had voice coaching to make her less shrill and sound better spoken and Harold Wilson had elecution lessons to make him sound less like a toff and more like one of the common men, and of course the pipe (which apparently never had any tobacco in as Harold Wilson didn't smoke) was added for effect to make him seem more like someone you could have a fireside chat with rather than the rather nervous temperamental man he actually was.

[Geoff]

David: ...with Dick Cheney

I'd rather go duck hunting with Dick Cheney than be driven home from a party by Ted Kennedy.

[Ted]

The Mail has its own agenda but while I agree this damages David Cameron's image there is also real politics out there - Telegraph has an article on the fact that Brown's heralded £30m for carers, again publicised in the Mail with a puff for Brown, actually works out at £4.16 per carer. Like the 50p for pensioners I think the fiver for carers could be more damaging to Brown than whether Cameron has a rich father in law - if our spokesmen actually concentrate on undermining Gordon's weakness for posing rather than delivering.

[Og]

STAG SHOOTING? "one of the bloodiest field sports". MY ARSE

Who are these proles? Stalking is the term you are searching for. No bloodier than swatting a mozzie. Whichever urban ignoramus wrote this should be stalked and culled asap.

Anyone for HORSEriding?

Anyone for HUNTING with a 12 bore in search of pheasantS?

No stalker ever aimed to hit two stags in one go, nor would boast if he inadvertently did so.

I am delighted Dave knows how to stalk red deer. Would that he could work out the balance between state and individual.

[Peter Harrison]

Just a minor point but Harold Wilson did smoke. However, the pipe was for effect - in private he smoked cigars.

On topic, I think this is a non-story. I don't think it will hurt us. Any lost votes from animal rights activists will be minimal. Any leader is bound to upset some groups. Margaret Thatcher was hated with a vengeance by many, but she still won three elections. I'm not saying Cameron is in the same league (yet), but I still think he is a likely election winner.

[Denis Cooper]

Of course Wilson smoked his pipe. I recall that on one occasion it was reported he'd set his pocket on fire, by failing to knock it out completely before he stowed it away. But it was also a very useful theatrical prop.

Does this mean Cameron killing two stags with a single round passing through one and striking the other, or with two rounds fired in very quick succession?

[Chris Hughes]

Who the hell goes "stag shooting"..?

[michael mcgough]

Can we expect photos of David in superbly hand tailored hunting apparel similar to that worn for for his dining club?

[Sally Roberts]

Og and Afleitch - you are clearly two of the few people who actually know about deer stalking and why it has to be carried out! Of course those people who love to mock so-called "posh" people will have a wonderful time with this, unfortunately!!!!

[david]

As a rural person myself, I was never keen on fox hunting, even though I could see the libertarian argument for not banning it, overall I was not sorry to see it go, I wouldn't like to see it return. Shooting I've never had a problem with, there is of course an end product, food. Venison and game are very healthy foods, and should be promoted much more than they are. I'm not keen on the large corporate shoots, and also think before you are allowed to shoot 'live' you should do several hours on the clay pigeon range. But apart from that shooting is by and large very beneficial to the countryside. Take the 'brace' story with a very large spoonful of salt.

[David DPB]

Of course, Blair's nickname was Bambi.......

[Sally Roberts]

hahahaha! That's very good David!

[Sally Roberts]

David you make a good point about game and venison being healthy foods (although I have to say I don't like the flavour myself)and in fact venison is becoming a great deal more popular. Apparently it is the lowest in fat of all "red" meats!
Incidentally, David Cameron is certainly not the only politician keen on country sports. I am sure if you polled our elected representatives - MPs, MEPs, Councillors - you would find that a great many of them shoot and fish.

[Curly]

"Can we expect photos of David in superbly hand tailored hunting apparel similar to that worn for for his dining club?"

No - but we can expect pictures like this!

[Curly]

Many apologies, here's that link again.

[John Moss]

The problem with venison is that because it is so low in fat, the meat isn't tenderised by the fat liquifying during cooking and it tends to be quite tough as a consequence.

It needs to be well hung, probably for at least three weeks, then braised slowly in a stew or roasted at a moderate heat for several hours with much basting.

That was of course quite easy when you could turn the whole carcass on a spit and employ a rely of small servants to do the basting while your noble guests quaffed flagons of wine and ale, but it is a bit more difficult since barons and serfs went the way of all things!

[Jack Stone]

The UKIP looneys are out in force on this tread. Deers have to be culled because if they are not the herds will simply grow to large and deers will end up dying from starvation.
The heart on there sleeve and rocks in there head animal welfare lobby are often animals own worse enemy.
We should be defending David Cameron not attacking him.Mind you the idiots who have been on this tread would attack him for giving someone the kiss of life.

[Og]

The source of the "two stags with one shot" boast turns out to be our old friend Brute Anderson. And he didn't say two with one shot - rather, he suggested that Dave is dextrous enough to shoot one beast, and then immediately turn to another and despatch it before the herd bolt off.

Technically, this is possible. But it is also highly unlikely. The second beast will not have been chosen at random, but agreed with the professional stalker.

Those who have stalked will know that the superb telescopic sights are such that quick jerky movement of the rifle makes identification of the second target quite difficult. And then one needs a huge slice of luck to find that the second target has not buggered off down the hill, or that, if standing still, is offering a clean shot. One does not shoot stags up the arse. You'd be amazed how often a slight movement by the beast can render him unshootable until he moves again.

The fact is that all stalkers look to make sure of a good, clean kill on the stag most in need of culling. The "right-left knack" that the Brute talks about is a rarity, probably used by professional stalkers when culling hinds in the winter.

Anything Anderson says about Cameron should be taken with a pinch of salt. He'd have him walking on water and performing open heart surgery whilst composing sonnets if he thought he could get away with it.

[Oscar Peter]

yetanotheranon -

I imagine the first huntsperson of any sort to lead the Conservative Party or in fact any of the main parties since Alec Douglas Home, maybe it will get in the Countryside Alliance vote?

I'm sure IDS has seen off the odd stag. Ming is certainly keen on that sort of stuff as well...although no surprise that no-one is interested

[Alex Forsyth]

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN BY THE EDITOR.

[Editor]

Alex Forsyth: you are on your last warning. I will make efforts to ban you from further commenting if you continue to lower the tone of this site with ridiculous allegations against David Cameron.

[Alex Fosyth]

Your opinion Editor, but as it's your site you are fully entitled to it.

Care to remind me when and in what context my "first warning" was made, as it has plainly escaped my attention.

[Alex Forsyth]

As I detest blood sports and cruelty to anumals I make no apologies for my earlier post, much of which was made up of biting sarcasm.

However, let's stick to the facts.

Cameron has been exposed as a participator in blood sports, contrary to the majority sentiments of the populace and contrary to the "caring" "compassionate" "modern" (etc. etc. etc.) image of himself he has sought to promote.

I suggest that Cameron stands exposed as a hypocrite.

Anti-blood sports Metrosexuals please note...

[Annabel Herriott]

The main problem is that Nulab are Townies. They think their food comes neatly butchered and cling wrapped, ready to be picked of a cool shelf in Waitroses. They cannot grasp of their chicken breasts running round with feathers on, or their leg of lamb covered in nice white curly wool, getting picked off by the odd fox, and spread all over the field. Not a pretty sight. What I truly dont get, is where the "animal rights" warriors are coming from. More foxes are being killed now, than before that Act, and the ones that are around,are moving into habitated areas and back gardens, and taking white doves from the dove cotes, and the family moggie from the back lawn. How long before its a baby in its pram on same back lawn??? The tragedy is, that their minds cannot conceive of this chain of events, because I suspect that they too, are Townies.

[Annabel Herriott]

May I presume that Alex Forsyth is a vegan vegetarian? Otherwise, he too is a hypocrite.

[Alex Forsyth]

The main problem is that Nulab are Townies. They think their food comes neatly butchered and cling wrapped, ready to be picked of a cool shelf in Waitroses

Quite so Annabelle, and how do you think they differ from the Blutory swing-vote Metrosexuals Cameron has been so assiduously wooing?

Seems this current member of Whites and former member of the Bullingdon is not really one of them after all.

Anyway, where do you suppose the "centre ground" lies on Blood Sports? Ever seen the opinion polls?

Since you ask, yes I am a vegetarian, and have been for a number of years. I admit I don't force my cats to be veggies, though.

The heart on there sleeve and rocks in there head animal welfare lobby are often animals own worse enemy

Rather, I would say, in the same was that Jack Stone is vying to be crowned the worst enemy of the English language.

[Og]

Forsyth - Culling isn't cruelty. Culling is kindness. Call it tough love if you like. Failure to cull the red deer population of the Highlands, given that there are no other predators (except for the few wolves reintroduced by a Dutch landowner), would result in overpopulation, eco degradation, and therefore degradation of the deer themselves.

If you want to be all Disney about it, try to think how it feels to be a knackered old stag, years past his prime, carrying a bad injury inflicted during the rut through a harsh Highland winter. No fun at all.

Let others whether your sarcasm is "biting" or preposterous.

[Og]

... let others JUDGE whether your sarcasm, etc

[Alex Forsyth]

Let others judge whether your sarcasm is "biting" or preposterous.

Quite so. It really doesn't worry me if Jason Hinchcliffe, Jack Stone or others wish to launch an all-out attack on what I say. It's all part of the knockabout fun of debate.

Of course I agree that obscene abuse should be removed immediately, but otherwise a no-censorship line would be preferable.

Sadly, the editors here are oversensitive in comparison to moderators on other political sites. Possibly they overcompensate for their own position which is - shall we say - not exactly 100% favourable to the current party line.

[Richard]

"Personally I would not feel comfortable shooting animals, but I have time for the argument that it as least as humane as other ways of culling the deer population."

I doubt I could bring myself to shoot a stag but I admire David Cameron for having the guts to do it.

Unlike foxes, stags are actually eaten by us and people are well aware that stags have to be killed for this to be achieved. As long as Cameron can take them out in one shot I don't see why anybody could object. It's probably no less cruel than the usual methods, whatever they are.

[Yet Another Anon]

Possibly they overcompensate for their own position which is - shall we say - not exactly 100% favourable to the current party line.
If the party had more lines on things it might be easier for people to decide if they were favourable to them or not, on many issues the most substantial things said have been criticisms of chocolate oranges and value notions of being nice to people and this supposedly is half way towards a programme for government. It has to be said that if David Cameron were to become PM now people would have virtually no idea what he would do or even if he actually had any idea what he would do on most issues.

[CDM]

Will the public care? Of course not.

It'll probably motivate a few ex-miners in County Durham to turn out for Labour, but they would have done so anyway.

[Alex Forsyth]

If the party had more lines on things it might be easier for people to decide if they were favourable to them or not

In today's ST some committed Cameroon candidate in London(sorry I've left the paper upstairs and I can't be fagged to get it) is actually quoted as saying he wishes there were some policies to tell his supposedly eager public all about.

And isn't that the truth? There are no policies, just a bit of soothing mood music to provide an antidote to electors distracted by Labour's current problems.

Project Cameron is in insubstantial bubble. The only question is; will it burst before or after the next General Election?

CDM is right off track on the latest DC own-goal. The Durham ex-miners are likely to be keen fishermen and former hare coursers. The Cameron blood sports revelation would be irrelevant to these old-fashioned socialists.

Now let's see CDM similarly dismiss those target urban yuppie Metrosexuals.

[Yet Another Anon]

It'll probably motivate a few ex-miners in County Durham to turn out for Labour, but they would have done so anyway.
I would have thought that ex-miners would be some of the least likely to be bothered by someone doing a spot of hunting; it's the Trotskyite social workers, teachers, new age travellers etc.... who will be the most up in arms and New Labour types who see themselves as being conscientious liberal types who are bothered by it, ex-miners have no qualms about a bit of blood.

[IRJMilne]

I'm hoping we will soon see a Tory pledge to bring back the hereditaries. Mr Cameron appears to be a proper toff. Excellent.

Anyhow, I agree with david (9:48) : I'm not certain I want fox hunting back, but if you ban deer stalking you might as well ban fishing. In which case, you might as well ban the whole fishing industry, and the farming industry. Then we can start a "vegetables rights" movement. Free the carrots from the capitalist yoke!

[Ted]

I read somewhere that carrots scream when pulled out of the earth; who knows the pain they suffer being grated alive.

[Jack Stone]

Alex Forsyth is an idiot. Personally I suspect he so hates David Cameron if Cameron come out and said he was a vegaterian he would be off down the butchers within thirty seconds.
Perhaps he might warm to Cameron when he is Prime Minister after the election but I doubt it. Dogmatic right-wingers like him want a parrot as leader who will just repeat all there pejudices on command.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

I can see no problem with deer hunting as a way of controlling the deer population in the absence of wolfs. It's obvious that Labour is still deeply attached to the ugly politics of envy and class. Using a picture of DC in morning dress to make cheap political points is one such example. Can you imagine what would happen if we used a picture of some Socialist living on a council estate with the caption, "If he can't make life better for himself, what hope is there for US?" there would be outrage.

It appears to me that discrimination, quite rightly, applies to every minority group in the UL except for the Toff. Outrageous!

Oh, and another point, no doubt our UKUP friend, Mr. Forsyth, wears plastic shoes….

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

"It really doesn't worry me if Jason (?)Hinchcliffe, Jack Stone or others wish to launch an all-out attack on what I say. It's all part of the knockabout fun of debate", said Alex Forsyth. Actually, I hadn't posted on the thread when you accused me of attacking you. You hearing voices, too?

Carry on digging!

[Geoff]

Those who think that miners might be anti-hunting should remember that the last new Fox Hunt to be formed in the UK was the Banwen Miners Hunt in 1962-ish.

The kennel house was the lamp-room of the local colliery.

[Cllr. Gavin Ayling]

Sounds fun to me...

[Alex Forsyth]

Actually, I hadn't posted on the thread when you accused me of attacking you. You hearing voices, too?

I know you didn't. The editor didn't give you a chance to.

I merely used your names as those of super-archetypal Camerloons.

[Justin hinchcliffe]

You're mad!

[Alex Forsyth]

Well, Justin, I guess that makes two of us.

Or three if you include the Dyslexic Dynamo.

[Annabel Herriott]

You know Tim, our Alex is getting to be as much of a pain in the backside as wind mill tilting Chad, and not half as much fun. He does not advance the argument one jot, but con firms the suspicions of those of us in the real world that he must be a champagne socialist. I dont believe the UKIP bit. Thats a different sort of mania.

[Justin hinchcliffe]

Yes, at least Chad *could* be fun...

[Alex Forsyth]

You know Tim, our Alex is getting to be as much of a pain in the backside as wind mill tilting Chad, and not half as much fun

Is that because you never get the better of me, Annabelle? All together now...aaaaah!

I'm no socialist but I have no objection to champagne.

[Ted]

Annabel, Justin
I used to get concerned - and still do a bit when opposition blogs quote - but decided instead that Alex (and before him Mark McCartney, Monday Clubber, Wallenstein and Malvolio) is best viewed as ConHome's very own Alf Garnett. An artistic construct with a developing personal history, not always coherent, reflecting the bits of the party we have sloughed off as we recognised that they were no longer part of our developing narrative. Sad figures banging on the doors now closed to them that once were welcoming. The author or authors could perhaps be better employed elsewhere but it gives them something to do to pass the hours.

[Editor]

Everyone back on thread please.

[Richard Carey]

I'm actually quite impressed. As the article continues: "[Cameron] is one of the few marksmen skilled enough to shoot two stags in one go."

That can’t be so impressive – after all, Prescott’s a pretty big targ… oh, sorry, two STAGS, right, I’m with you now.

Another Sunday, another non-story in the MoS. Damaging? I don’t think especially so, even if proved true. Would I rather it were focusing on our approach to the family, or improving social cohesion, or our improving lead over Labour on economic competence? Absolutely I would. But I’m adult enough to know that if I try to tell the MoS what to write, they’ll probably go for the facile anyway.

I’m obviously sorry if this has offended some potential supporters such as Cleo above – I hope that some of the explanations from those above with greater expertise in this area than I has helped give some reassurance with that, as should viewing this Sunday story in the context of our broader agenda as a party.

I do think that the very best line to be used in response to this was from Phil Whittingdon above, and bears repeating: Little did that hoodie know when he gestured to Mr Cameron as if to fire at him that the Tory leader is a better shot than he will ever be! Fantastic!

[Sally Roberts]

Oh Editor! And there I was enjoying the knock-about comedy!!!!

[Sally Roberts]

What is interesting is that you can tell the true country people (e.g. Annabel) from the Nulab "townie" types. It is absolutely true that meat does not come neatly packaged from Waitrose (or Tesco, Sainsburys or Marks for that matter...) and there is blood and guts involved. There is such a thing as "animal husbandry" as well and deer culling is all a part of that.

[Sasha]

"Any lost votes from animal rights activists will be minimal". What votes? We have never had the votes of any animal rights activists. As for the notion that Middle England will find this a terrible and disgusting thing and they will now under no circumstance vote for Cameron, well that is rubbish. I go beagling (it is hunting without horses and where the 'charlie' is a hare) and whenever I mention that I go the reaction nine times out of ten is "oh, that sounds interesting!". Even after people know what it is they still show interest and also tend to agree with the reasons behind it. These people who I am talking about fit straight into Middle England.

[John Irvine]

I have no interest whatsoever in opposing hunting of any sort, but I can see that this goes right against the left-wing image Cameron has been portraying.

Im sure all these hippie types he has been playing up to ecpected him to oppose hunting. Theyre the votes hes going to lose, and a worthless collection of votes they were in the first place.

So it looks as if he has been wasting everybody's time, including his own

[John Irvine]

"Little did that hoodie know when he gestured to Mr Cameron as if to fire at him that the Tory leader is a better shot than he will ever be! Fantastic!"

Yes but the problem is that Cameron was never going to shoot that piece of scum. He prefers to hug them

The test would be if Cameron gave his full support to Tony Martin the brave Norfolk farmer who shot dead a maurauding hoodie.

I was priveleged to meet Mr Martin at a dinner 2 years ago and he is a Tory through and through.

[Richard Carey]

Theyre the votes hes going to lose, and a worthless collection of votes they were in the first place.

That's the marvellous thing about democracy, John - we don't get to choose whose vote matters, they all matter, and I think that's a healthy thing.

The test would be if Cameron gave his full support to Tony Martin the brave Norfolk farmer who shot dead a maurauding hoodie.

I had always been led to believe that Martin was slightly unhinged - his media appearances came across that way to me. While I think that the law regarding the right of householders to protect themselves needs to be strengthened and kept under review (this a separate thread in iteself, I know), I was relieved in some ways that the "Tony Martin's law" that was proposed a couple of years ago did not get very far. Making law on the basis of individual cases involving some very strange people usually makes for very bad law.

[John Irvine]

Well Richard there's some very strange people on this forum and they're definitely not Conservatives.

The last time I was on was some time ago and I had decided never to post again because of the abuse from socialists like Justin Hinchcliffe.

Its funny that these people never get banned isnt it?

[Richard Carey]

Apologies for the double post, but didn't spot this before:

Yes but the problem is that Cameron was never going to shoot that piece of scum. He prefers to hug them

And the Alastair Campbell Prize for repeating New Labour spin rather than selling the more thoughtful Conservative position goes to... John Irvine!

[Richard Carey]

Well Richard there's some very strange people on this forum and they're definitely not Conservatives.

Agreed, John - there are a few people on here who don't have the best interests of the Conservatives at heart, but as I've posted before, that's the joy of blogs like this. Within the Editor's comment guidelines you can post something that's as daft as you like, but if you do you must always be prepared for half a dozen more sensible people to some and tell you why you're wrong!!

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Doubt if you'll find many Socialists that support hunting, Mr. Irvine. The chemists will be open tomorrow so you'll be able to get your pills...

[Annabel Herriott]

sasha, that wouldnt be the Colne valley beagles would it?

[Sasha]

It would be the Warwickshire Beagles I'm afraid Annabel. If your ever going to be in the area let me know.

[malcolm]

What a thread! Amazed that this subject has attracted so many comments even if so many have been from the likes of 'Alex Forsyth' or John Irvine.
Last year I stayed at a hunting lodge in the highlands and had a number of good talks with the keepers. Deer stalking is very necessary for the reasons mentioned above.Even so many older deer still die of illness and starvation and the keepers where I was were very careful about which animals were shot. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of animal welfare must acknowledge that stalkers are doing the animals a favour. However where I have some reservations are on those estates where they allow commercial shoots and people who can't hit a barn door at fifty yards are allowed to stalk. Many deer must suffer from the wounds inflicted by such people. It is a difficult question though as I guess without these commercial shoots the estates could not survive financially.
Will this hinder Cameron? I think probably not.It doesn't seem to have made a big splash in the media today and I guess that those people who are so ignorant of animal welfare that they would condemn stalking are unlikely to vote Conservative anyway.

[Matt Wright]

On the issue that Cameron is not really green because he has been stalking I would disagree. As far as I am aware a wide range of conservation organisations cull deer and it has over the years generally been regarded as the field sport presenting the least difficult issues for commentators.

[Yet Another Anon]

I'm not certain I want fox hunting back, but if you ban deer stalking you might as well ban fishing.
It hasn't gone away, as I understand it the law in Scotland is not being enforced, but anyway what is banned is using hounds to hunt, hunts can still shoot the fox (personally I don't think it makes much difference to a fox whether it is shot or ripped to pieces, although it certainly won't like being in a trap much) or trap it and hounds can be used for tracking. Hunts still have special dispensation to block badger holes to stop foxes escaping down them which I don't think they should have, personally I think these people galloping about the countryside are a bunch of idiots but I don't really care whether foxes are shot, trapped, ripped to pieces or strangled by people with their bare hands.

[Yet Another Anon]

Certainly though fox hunting needed regulating and there were too many incidences of hunts straying onto private property they had not been permitted on and some peoples pets were killed and households disturbed.

[Opinicus]

@Matt Wright
The issue is not whether stalking is "green" or not but whether it is kindly & metrosexual or not. Since the rest of us have been condemned to outer darkness for harbouring old Tory values in all other respects, it comes as a surprise to find Cameron reverting to type in private. It is the double standard that needs addressing. Perhaps CCHQ could supply prospective candidates with a more detailed list of what constitutes modern and helpful and what constitutes old-fashioned and regrettable so that the rest of us can play the game too.

[Richard Hyslop]

I don't really think that this will damage David Cameron. Yes a few vocal animal rights fanatics will be up in arms, but would they have ever voted Conservative? I doubt it.

While hunting is an important issue for me, I accept that for most people it isn't. What matters are our policies on tax, crime, Europe, Defence, Health and Education.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Interesting that you place Europe before Education.

[Geoff]

Why is that interesting, Justin, as Europe is the one which affects all of the others? I would have put it first myself.

[Barry Walker]

Well, with luck the Tories will reverse the insane laws on gun ownership brought in by Labour.

Shooting sport has been ruined by 'New Labour'.

[Paul]

As a person who enjoys shooting and has seen the systematic rape and destruction of all countryside sports, i must say im pleased to see that a prospective leader of this country has the guts to do what he likes regardless of the "political fallout".

even as someone who, traditionaly, was always unlikly to vote tory, i must admit Mr cameron is becoming increaisngly the only possible contender for the task of removing b lairs messes from this country

[Phil]

BULLINGDON [Oxford] is the UK equivalent to SKULL & BONES (Gen. 3:22) [Yale]

The UK/US educational system predicates the REPUBLICAN (US/CONSERVATIVE(UK) political party paradigm!

In effect it is a "junior school" for those men that seek entry to the "senior school"!

We all know what that "senior school" happens to be!

AUDI - VIDE - TACE! [Latin Axiom]
HEAR - SEE - Keep SILENT! [In English]

It is a case of the sum being greater than its parts!

The key to understanding the US/UK political system is to understand who precisely CONTROLS the US Fed!

This TRUTH is not found in the US or UK media - on TV, radio or in magazines or newspapers [tabloid or broadsheet]!

Discover what happened on Jekyll Island in Georgia & the Federal Reserve Act [1913] that was passed unlawfully [where a Quorum was not present in the US Senate on December 23].

The 5 powerful men were agents for the most powerful men in the US & the world who controlled & still to this day control the US, UK, European, Russian & the world's financial system.

These are the men who are the shareholders of the Fed - the PRIVATE banking cartel.
Alan GREENSPAN & Ben Shalom BENANKE are merely its agents as Chairmen of "the Fed".
[The Federal Reserve Bank of New York]
Alan Greenspan has asserted: "THE FED IS ABOVE THE LAW & ANSWERABLE TO NO ONE!"

No one in the media, law or politics DARE contradict this bold assertion!

UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH - THEN YOU UNDERSTAND!

[Think David ROCKEFELLER of 146 East 65 Street, New York, NY 10021]

Be aware of all the extremely influential institutions he founded & you begin to understand the interconnections!

The Fed controls the Bank of England [Prof. David BLANCHFLOWER (Dual US/UK citizen)(Fed + Bank of England, MPC) is the powerful AGENT of the US Fed who also sits on the powerful non government controlled Bank of England MPC banking cartel].

[Phil]

Understand that both ROCKEFELLER [US]& ROTHSCHILD [UK] who are both GLOBALISTS [extremely enthusiastic exponents + proselytise NWO (as per GHW Bush in his speech to the US Congress on 911-1991)(the heinous "Event" had to take place precisely 10 (ten) years to the day)("Wargames" with "hijacked aircraft" were orchestrated & simulated by Dick CHENEY (veep) on the very morning in the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC) under the WHITE HOUSE) on the very morning of "911" (Code for Emergency)(a twist on "Operation Northwoods" which JFK vetoed)(See David Shayler's critique)(in London, "WarGames" at the "precise Tube Stations where bombs were specifically detonated" took place in London on 7-7-2005 orchestrated by VISOR Consultant commissioned by "MI5"/("Insecurity Service" of Thames House, Millbank, Victoria Embankment, next to Lambeth Bridge, north west side) under the sub-contractorship/agency of Peter POWER)] NO INVESTIGATION.
Why?
Was this not "Sovereign State sponsored terrorism" - in order to facilitate a war against other sovereign countries?

Check out the TRUTH-DISCLOSERS:

David SHAYLER [MI5]

Annie MACHON [MI5]

Richard TOMLINSON [MI6]

Katharine GUNN [GCHQ]

KG revealed a secret e-mail & was egregiously hounded like a cornered animal [as done to Dr David KELLY (who was murdered by HMG)] by UK Prime Minister Tony BLAIR and his many acolytes [from callous confidence-trickster CAMPBELL to mendacious MANDELSON the deceitful traitor] prosecuted by his wife's pal [ex Senior Partner of Matrix Chambers - the best friend of his wife Cherie Booth, where his wife works as Counsel (ex LSE and pupil to Darry Irvine her ex pupil master & later New Labour Lord Chancellor who drafted the New Labour Manifesto - he told MANDELSON - as head of New Labour strategy - that Tony (Blair) NOT Gordon (Brown) or Robin (Cook) or Margaret (Beckett) or Donald (Dewar - Irvine's fellow student at Glasgow, popular candidate & therefore Irvine's bete noir) would be Shadow Leader on John Smith's untimely death)[i) BLAIR (pupil of Derry Irvine), ii) PRESCOTT (ex Merchant Navy steward to facilitate Union support), iii)Beckett (first woman leadership candidate for Labour Party)], as she recommended Ken MacDonald to her husband to be Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) in charge of all prosecution work in the UK] under the widely drafted Official Secrets Act that was drafted as a blanket cover to prosecute anything the UK Government did not want disclosed. Blair was known for lies, deceit, compassing the death of those innocents that became "mere statistics" as unlawful homicides, Treachery, Genocide & inter alia Perverting the Course of Justice!
[Plus multiple offences against the Terrorism Act].
Katharine Gun, 29, from Cheltenham, claimed the e-mail was from US spies asking British officers to tap ALL phones of nations voting on the war against Iraq [done through the US NSA(RAF) Menwith Hill major intelligence gathering base [the largest in the world outside the US] done through the ECHELON spying system which identifies key words in ALL telephone conversations & ALL emails].

There are now 4.2 MILLION CCTV in the UK - the most spied upon place in the whole WORLD!

There are NO citizens in the UK - mere servile SUBJECTS of the sovereign!

The UK is led by a gang of deceitful, irresponsible people with no morals who in their youth were ALL Trotskyist/Communist/ Stalinist/Labour Party members!

The TRUTH will set you FREE...

As it set all the other GOOD people FREE who have a MORAL, ETHICAL & SPIRITUAL conscience that motivates them.

MANDELSON through his TREACHERY is out to DESTROY the CONSERVATIVE Party.

MANDELSON & ROTHSCHILD are tied at the hip -WAKE UP!!!

MANDELSON supports RUSSIA in order to undermine UK & EUROPE!

Understand what MANDELSON is doing [destroying the CONSERVATIVES through the all powerful ROTHSCHILD financial interests that garner power through the unfettered use of "TAX HAVENS" (areas of lower taxation in the British Isles & Europe) & unfettered use of "TRUST LAW"!

I could easily advise you - but you only seem to recruit ex OXFORD/BULLINGDON types! [Which can too easily be identified & marginalised as "TOFFs" "LORD SNOOTY & his Pals"!].

You fail to understand that RSLs/HAs are now being successfully used to GERRYMANDER Communities. That is why the DCLG was set up! [Money goes from Taxpayer - Treasury - DCLG - Housing Corporation - Individual RSLs - the largest in London had its Chairman nominated by Tony Blair - he was given a Labour Party peerage - he had been Chairman of the Labour Party - his name was Labour Lord Tom SAWYER (giving NUPE/UNISON vote to Blair (all Directors of the Flagship RSL in west London are New LABOUR Idealists)].

If you FAIL to understand & address the extent of GERRYMANDERING in Urban areas [specifically in Hammersmith, west London & the inveigling, incestuous power of RSLs/HAs linked into the heart of the LABOUR scam] - I promise, you WILL not win next General ELECTION!