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Indeed, I thought that might have been what you meant but couldn't quite believe it! And there was me thinking the Catholic Church was letting go of some of its more unpleasant medieval bigotry! How depressing.

I think Ann Widdecombe's analogy with abortion is absolutely spot on, as, it seems, do most people writing in this thread: she summed up a point about freedom I've been grappling with for some time.

I am not wildly in favour of gay adoption, but can just about live with it. What I can't tolerate is the imposition of a certain moral view on individuals and organisations which do not share it.

I would be quite interested to know whether the Catholic Church has a strong basis to take its case to Strasbourg. The law is not my strong point, still less European law - does anybody have any views?

PW

Editor,

May I direct you to your comments policy which states:

Homophobic, racist or other hateful posts will also result in permanent bans.

Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia
Pronunciation: "hO-m&-'fO-bE-&
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
- ho·mo·pho·bic /-'fO-bik/ adjective

Homosexuality is perverse and immoral, lucy. (You and I may agree to differ on that.) Homosexuals are immoral perverts. (Ditto.)

Posted by: Oliver McCarthy | January 30, 2007 at 15:16

Has not Oliver McCarthy breached this site's comments policy? Should he not therefore receive a permanent ban under the site's rules?


If you allow the catholic church to opt-out from ant-discrimination law then how long is it going to be before others want similar opt-outs.
What do you want David Cameron to go into the next election with a pledge to end all anti-discrimation laws because if its good enougth for Catholics then its good enougth for others.
Some people are opposed to this measure on religious grounds I admit but many posted on this site are opposed on grounds of bigotry.
I agree with others who believe this site is being dominated by UKIP, BNP etc.
This site isn`t representative of the moderate majority in this country its just repesentative of right-wing political and religious bigotry.

Editor,

May I direct you to your comments policy which states:

Homophobic, racist or other hateful posts will also result in permanent bans.

Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia
Pronunciation: "hO-m&-'fO-bE-&
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
- ho·mo·pho·bic /-'fO-bik/ adjective

Homosexuality is perverse and immoral, lucy. (You and I may agree to differ on that.) Homosexuals are immoral perverts. (Ditto.)

Posted by: Oliver McCarthy | January 30, 2007 at 15:16

Has not Oliver McCarthy breached this site's comments policy? Should he not therefore receive a permanent ban under the site's rules?


Surely the best compromise is to let the Catholic Church have its' way but withdraw the public funding?

Can Changetowin, or Tory T, tell us why they cannot post supportive things about Mr Cameron under their own names? What dreadful fate awaits them if they do?

I'm scared some of the many homophobes/BNP members etc. on this site may take offence at my comments and may try to track me down, John.

Editor, any thoughts on whether your comments policy still applies?

No you're not, you're lying/joking. Why won't you post under your real name? It devalues everything you have to say otherwise.

This website will come back to haunt us - CCHQ will put pressure or Tim to shut it down sooner rather than later. Perhaps Fr. tim is a UKUP/NuLab agent?

Why does Justin post under his real name? Has he ever said anything constructive, or even merely nice about another Tory?

Surely the best compromise is to let the Catholic Church have its' way but withdraw the public funding?

Posted by: Tom | January 30, 2007 at 15:41

The public funding is simply the payment for the reports and the evaluations undertaken to assess suitability of child and prospective parents.....it is apparently £28.000

Frankly there is a question why public money should be used at all to fund someone else's family failure. Maybe the parents should pay the full cost of adopting children with loans ?

Maybe the Church should be freed of all taxation - Income Tax, VAT, Council Tax, Business Rates, etc as in the USA ?

Why not make Churches completely tax-exempt - at present they are paying VAT on repairs to church buildings.

Maybe there ought to be a complete split and exempt Churches and their Members from ALL taxation and let them provide their own education and in time create their own towns and cities

This website will come back to haunt us - CCHQ will put pressure or Tim to shut it down sooner rather than later. Perhaps Fr. tim is a UKUP/NuLab agent?

Posted by: Justin Hinchcliffe | January 30, 2007 at 15:55

Do you have arrested-development or something ? How can you write such infantile junk in place of proper reasoned debate ?

That is a pathetic contribution and worthy of a 13 year old

Agreed Justin! Whilst I fully support the right of members to air their views, one has to wonder at the motives of those who do so critically in such a public forum. It would not surprise me if many were party-apparatchiks for UKIP/BNP etc.

Perhaps this site should be renamed as Tim's-evangelical-Pro-IDS-crusadeHome.com...?

Wow! This thread has obviously got plenty of you hot under the collar. My take is this:

As a doctor I choose not to refer women for abortions but to pass their cases onto a colleague. As such I am discriminating not against my patient themself but against a choice they have made.

The gay issue is different. One no more choses to be gay than one choses to be white or male. Thus the analogy between the two situations drawn by meny commentators is entirely false.

In life we all discriminate between people based on their chosen behaviours, and thats fine. Anti-discrimination laws are intended to stop discrimination based on ones core, unchosen and unchangeable, characteristics. I really cannot see why people have such a problem with that.


Justin, Lucy et al, I find this site interesting, and its a very useful resource to find out what's going on in and around the Conservative Party.

As with all blogs, if you don't like the content, then your option is clear.

This subject really is bringing the worst out of people. The idea that Homosexuals are immoral perverts is pretty unpleasent. However the idea that this website and open debate is shut down becuase it doesn't suit some peoples agendas is equally as crazy. I'll just be glad when the subject goes away and we can talk subjects which are not quite so divisive.

I could, if I wanted to, not visit this site but like ChangetoWin I post here so people know we're not some nutty right-wing Christian/IDS sect. I'm amazed, Sean, that you don't seem to be accepting the fact that Labour and the Lib Dems watch this site like hawks and the nasty bigoted comments will come back to haunt us?

Andrew, why has the Editor opened up three threads on the same subject in three consecutive days? Don't blame us if you're bored! I think he has a very unhealthy obsession with homosexuality...

Justin, without doubt you post the nastiest, most personalised posts of any regular contributor to this site. *You* are the problem. That said, you post under your own name, unlike Changetowin and Tory T. I am puzzled why two such keen supporters of the current leader dare not post under their real names.

I see that the Congregation for the Propagation of the Moderniser Faith is in overdrive this afternoon with lots of talk of banning people and CCHQ telling Tim to shut his blog down. What an embarrassment these people are. Justin Hinchcliffe is beyond caricature. Were you badly bullied in the playground at school, Justin? Has no-one ever told that politics is a contact sport, as IDS found to his cost when he had to deal with you lot?


I doubt if what we say here would carry much weight among the voting public, Justin, however much Lib Dem and Labour bloggers may like to quote from us.

However, without wishing to be too ad hominem, I think you ought to be more careful about some of the things you post - such as implying that a fellow poster wishes to gas homosexuals, or referring to rural Conservatives as "horrible old bigots."

I wonder if our John Wilkinson is the same John Wilkinson who ran Islington Conservatives into the ground?

No, never heard of him. But there you go *again* with the nasty, personalised attacks. Are you aiming for some sort of record-per-thread this time?

The idea of there being a backlash from social conservatives over this issue is rather amusing. Did anyone ever thing that a member of the liberal elite like Cameron could ever represent the views of social conservatives?

I think it might be time that this thread is closed Editor.

Cameron was elected on a modernising agenda. All those people who feel 'conned' must be pretty thick.

Agree, VFTSW.

Justin, I would imagine the threads are because the subject doggedly refuses to move away from the news schedules. If the Lib Dems and Labour are watching the site like hawks then good for them, because I don't see what good it will do them to quote anonymous nobodys on an independent website. The only interest to them will be people who post under there names and as Sean says, slags off the majority of the party membership.

Alas, TonTom, as VAT is an EU tax, you can't exempt churches from VAT without their say so... remember what happened when Gordon Brown promised VAT relief on church repairs? It didn't last long...

It's been a very busy day for Tim and I so we haven't had a chance to check up on this thread for an hour or two, I'm sorry to see what it has descended into!

I'm closing it now and deleting the offensive comments. Please don't hesitate to email us in future about these things.

simon-M,

You say: >The gay issue is different. One no more choses to be gay than one choses to be white or male. Thus the analogy between the two situations drawn by meny commentators is entirely false.<

You are quite mistaken, and this was an issue explored in the House of Lords debate recently, concerning the Northern Ireland measures. The Catholic adoption agencies do not prevent homosexuals from adopting, if they are married to members of the opposite sex in a first and faithful union. Neither does it stop them from adopting if they are single and celibate. It is acts that are considered wrong, not people. And practicing homosexuals are not *forced* to have sex. Thus one does indeed *choose* to be a practicing homosexual. It is not in the least like being black or one-legged. It is, on the other hand, just like being a Muslim or a Tory, and one hopes that practicing homosexuals, Muslims and Tories are not subject to hurtful and unncessary discrimination.

I thought that Conservative Home (with a capital 'C' and the word 'Tory' scattered across the site) was an unofficial home for members and supporters of the Conservative Party. I thought we could all safely operate under the premise that we were all Conservatives _ even if our subs weren't up to date. I wish people who don't fit that category would push off and post elsewhere. Their bitter and twisted rants are driving away a lot of real Conservatives, who would like to post here but find the extreme and vitriolic posts of Conservative-haters deter them from doing so. Debate would still be anything but bland, but we might involve a few more sensible people _ and feed fewer 'nasty Tory' quotes to our opponents. Like it or not, posts on this site are taken as exemplars of Conservative grassroots opinion. I wish the editor would ban all noms de plume _ or should I say noms de guerre? If you are not prepared to attach your name to a comment, that is usually a very good sign you shouldn't make that comment in the first place.

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