Are Eurosceptic Tory candidates in for a better deal from UKIP?

Guido has an important story this morning concerning Lord Pearson's recent defection to UKIP.  Guido reports that Lord Pearson attached a vital condition to his recent decision to become a UKIP peer:

"UKIP, Pearson was promised, would not field candidates against Eurosceptic Tory candidates. Pearson does not believe that defeating friendly anti-EU allies would serve the national interest. In 2005 UKIP were reckoned to have cost the Tories six seats, including in Thanet South where the candidate was an ardent anti-EU campaigner.  This commitment could in some ways secure Cameron's right-wing flank and benefit UKIP by allowing them to focus resources on more useful targets. It will also encourage Eurosceptics in the Conservative party to advertise their loyalties and put pressure on the Europhiles. The old UKIP policy scared many wavering Conservative voters who feared voting UKIP would only benefit Labour and the LibDems. Lord Pearson may yet have done the Conservative party a final great service..."

If true, this is significant news.  Up until now the (not-entirely-clear) UKIP policy has been to give Eurosceptic MPs a clear run but to fight Eurosceptic candidates.  If UKIP are now going to focus resources on those Tory MPs and candidates who accept the European status quo there will be an increased incentive for Conservative Associations to select more Eurosceptic candidates.  The devil is always in the detail, of course, and it will be interesting to see how Lord Rannoch and Nigel Farage have defined 'Eurosceptic.'

It may be that support of the Better Off Out campaign is necessary to qualify to be 'Eurosceptic' - a campaign that enjoys the support of at least a third of Tory members.  Jim Allister MEP, Jeffrey Donaldson MP, Iris Robinson MP, Sammy Wilson MP and David Simpson MP of the Democratic Unionist Party have signed up to BOO today.

Comments

[Matt Davies]

It is only for MPs who sign up to BOO.

Nigel said "If you don't sign up to BOO, then you are no eurosceptic".

He has also made it crystal clear that it only counts for MPs.

Nothing has changed.

[Richard ROBINSON]

Eurosceptic MPs were not immune from UKIP at the last election. For example, Frank Carstairs stood for UKIP against John Redwood in Wokingham.

I have never understood the UKIP tactic that would prefer Chris Huhne as Member of Parliament for Eastleigh to Conor Burns or Stephen Ladyman for Thanet South to Mark MacGregor.

[Peter Hatchet]

Yet another diary piece on UKIP..

This comment thread will easiy exceed 100 posts within 24 hours. The usual nutters will love having a rant about it.

Why do we keep talking about UKIP?

Why do we humour them?

[malcolm]

I would agree with you Richard. Whilst I have some sympathy for individual Ukippers and their beliefs, the practical effect of their party has been wholly negative in that there are several Europhile Labour MPs who owe their positions entirely to UKIP.
Why they would put up candidates against men like IDS if they were seriously interested in building a patriotic conservative alliance?

[Henry Mayhew]

If people enjoy posting about it what is your problem? UKIP is a significant and possibly growing factor in UK electoral politics. The alternative is to write about the Libdems all the time.

[Old Hack]

Farage will renege on any deal done. Pearson's been sold a lie. No ifs, ands or buts.

The whole deal is predicated on recruiting more disgruntled Conservatives prepared to let Brown be PM so they can scratch their EU itch.

Never underestimate how devious and spiteful these UKIPers are. They are not lost sheep from the Conservatives and they are out to do us down any way they can. Pearson is either completely in cahoots with Farage in pulling this stunt or he has been stitched up.

I agree with Peter Hatchet. Ignore them, let them stand where they want, just make absolutely certain they do not infiltrate your local Association. Do not tolerate ANY literature, videos, books or whatever garbage they churn out be anonymous or branded. Challenge any member who seeks to promote them - don't allow any cuckoos in the nest.

Lastly Editor, delete posts from UKIP on this site - we must deprive these goons of the oxygen of publicity they crave.

[Scotty]

"Guido has an important story this morning concerning Lord Pearson's recent defection to UKIP"
Guido was covering another important story this weekend which might have implications for the whole country, and be the equivalent of a political nuclear bomb going off.

But hey, if we are going to give time to pressure group that seeks to decide conservative policy and candidates, through blackmail in a few seats somewhere in the South that really is the story.
PS should I stop bothering to vote in ballots from the official party and just do as I am told by ConHom and UKIP?
I suppose it would save on the stamps!

[Mark Fulford]

Another day another UKIP story. Yawn.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Editor, please delete this thread. Loyal Conservatives have no desire to talk about UKUP and give them the oxygen they crave. You should know better!!!

[Margaret on the Gullotine]

All the above posts seconded. The (was it ICM) poll showed that our voters are more likely to go across the Greens, for heaven's sake, so perhaps it would be wiser to have a ToryDiary post about their price to stand down in marginal seats!

[Leaving the Titanic]

Are you waving or drowning?
"Mr Cameron's attempts to boost his party in the North were dealt a blow last night when David Caldow, an industrialist and leading Conservative donor in the region, defected to the UK Independence Party.
Mr Caldow, 74, who is estimated to be worth £40 million, has also donated £25,000 to Ukip. He said: "Obviously the direction I have taken indicates I'm not entirely happy with things as they are."

[Mark McCartney]

Interesting to see that the usual suspects are running scared of UKIP to the extent they now want posts and entire threads deleted.

In fact True Conservatives have more in common with many (not all) UKIPpers than they have with Master Hinchcliffe and his dirty half-dozen. Personally, I hope that traditional Tories up and down the country will work with their brethren in UKIP in ensuring that reliable Eurosceptics are given a clear run.

Unlike these people I put my country before party. It's the mark of a True Tory.

[Editor]

On ConservativeHome today you can discuss healthcare, defence spending, options for the London Mayoralty, how we care for our pensioners, all of today's main newslinks and, yes, UKIP. Plenty for every taste I would have thought. This thread certainly won't be deleted!

[UKIP@HOME]

More from new UKIP Lord Pearson, helping to reinforce the image that he merely joined UKIP to use it to influence the Conservative Party:

"I know quite a lot of people who give quite a lot of money to the Conservative Party. I think if you are a Conservative donor and you are worried about the direction Cameron is taking the party then the only thing you can do now is to give to Ukip. You may want to give money to both, but I'm convinced that Ukip is the instrument to use to influence the Conservative Party."

Statements from defecting Tories like this highlight the simple truth they aren't joining because UKIP has a strong ideology, they are joining in the hope of changing the Tory party from the outside. UKIP Leader Nigel Farage is allowing his new tory friends to use UKIP as nothing more than a political pressure group to influence Conservative policy on the European issue.

No wonder UKIP has been described being like a bath with no plug. With Nigel Farage lurching UKIP to the hard right and as right wing ex-conservatives join, UKIP members are leaving and branches are closing.

[UKIP@HOME]

The United Kingdom Independence Party like to trot out the misleading story that they were responsible for losing the Conservatives 27 seats during the 2005 General Election.

Using the same sort of UKIP logic then I would like to claim that the Conservatives caused UKIP to lose 451 election deposits - costing UKIP £225,500.00.

If people had voted UKIP instead of Conservative, then UKIP would have gained more votes and kept all those lost deposits.

I do hope any potential UKIP donors like seeing their money vanish down a black hole. You might as well use your cash for toilet paper for all the good it will do!

[Mark Fulford]

UKIP are irrelevant and I'm happy to back that up by ignoring UKIP threads. If enough of us feel the same way, that'll be the end of the matter.

[Mark McCartney]

On January 15, 2007 at 07:58 on the thread "Cameron: I am a true Tory" UKIP@HOME posted, exactly word for word, the same message at 12.56 above.

Rather an unimaginative little troll isn't he?

[HF]

Editor

Why not ask Lord Pearson to explain whether it is just existing MPs signing up to BOO by the summer that are off limits to UKIP challenges?

[Esbonio]

Well said, Editor.

[Andrew Woodman]

If everyone is so happy that UKIP are irrelevant and no threat, why do you feel the need to post on the thread? Every party is a threat, esp ones where Tories are defecting to. To ignore them is rather unwise i'd have thought.

[Mark McCartney]

"the practical effect of their party has been wholly negative in that there are several Europhile Labour MPs who owe their positions entirely to UKIP."

Posted by: malcolm | January 22, 2007 at 12:12

"UKIP are irrelevant".

Posted by: Mark Fulford | January 22, 2007 at 13:07

Sorry. I'm afraid you can't both be right.

[Andrew Woodman]

The key question is how many of those who voted UKIP would have voted Tory or stayed at home, had there not been a UKIP candidate. Wonder if there has been a poll conducted on this?

[Simon]

Oh God, not this again! Well, we all know UKIP is a repositiry for Pi**ed off euro-sceptic Tory voters. What makes them all the more 'dangerous' is that Farage comes across well in interviews and has a CLEAR line on policy ( well one anyway). The UKIP momentum can only truly be measured at the next Euro elections. I don't believe for one second they will actually do anything in the Locals or General election.

[Matt Davis]

Well said Editor! I for one am considerably sicker of the nasty fascist mindset that wants to ban threads and topics than I will ever be of reading different views about UKIP and the effect they may or may not have on the Conservatives. As far as I can see calls to ban mention of them are born solely from fear and are the antithesis of democractic discussion and discourse.If you don't like what you read on Conservativehome, then stop reading it!

[Tam Large]

Dave Cameron has shot himself in the foot again. UKIP's policy of standing against everyone, even if the incumbent was a staunch sceptic and campaigning to come out of the EU, was silly and counter-productive for all concerned. Now, thanks to Lord Pearson & Nigel Farage there is a simple way of sorting the sceptic wheat from the dissembling chaff, who might pretend to be sceptical and then act otherwise once elected (as Dave did over the EPP...): any MP who signs up to the cross-party Better Off Out Campaign is making a clear public stand, and is likely to be genuine in his or her views so can safely be regarded as a genuine euro-scepic. As for suggestions that Nigel Farage will break this pledge - er... it is Dave who has the established record of breaking key promises.

Cameron, by claiming this is a UKIP blackmail strategy, is just damaging himself. BOO is a huge campaign, to which many MPs, MEPs, Councillors and ordinary people have signed up, from all parties: indeed a goodly number of Conservatives MPs have signed up already. Banning more Conservative MPs from joing BOO not only breaks his pledge to allow MPs to campaign against EU membership, but it means that genuinely sceptical MPs may lose their seats through an entirely avoidable UKIP spilt of their vote: thereby possibly losing Dave the place in Number 10 he has staked his heart on, and for which he has neutered the Conservative Party of its core principles in his Blairisation project.

As for the old "let's concentrate on domestic policies" stuff - with 80% of our domestic laws now beig made by the EU, the only way we can affect the domestic issues which affect all of us is to regain control of our laws, and turn Parliament back into a governing body, instead of the glorified Parish Council is has become.

Regaining control of our laws, (and saving the £12 billion per annum fee which would be better spent on hospitals, schools, and police) by coming out of the EU is not a UKIP-only policy, nor a left versus right issue - it is something which unites people across the political spectrum.

[Not Brian Coleman]

Justin,

The Conservative Party is naturally a eurosceptic political party. Many of our councillors, acvtivists and members heavily sympathise with their counterparts in UKIP.

The only political party really capable of pulling the UK out of the disasterous EU is the Conservative Party.

You should know better....

[Matt Davies]

It's not only EUsceptics that are coming over now.

Low tax advocates, with the taxpayers alliances stating UKIP are the closest to their low tax ideas now.

Immigration, with only UKIP saying there should be a fair needs based system (alla Australia), instead of the no limits from the EU approach from the LibLabCon party.

Crime, UKIP actually will build new prisons and scap Human Rights legislation that really should be labeled Criminal Rights. Blue Labour can't do that, because of their subservience to the EU.

Education, UKIP are now the only pro-grammar school party, that believes in giving headmasters the power to run their schools.

Blue and New Labour backed the Iraq war. UKIP didn't.

Global trade, only UKIP wants Britain to decide, instead of Peter Mandelson.

Regulations on business, the LibLabCon are all happy with taking orders from the EU. UKIP will not and will massively dergulate small business. It will join EFTA, so that companies who want trade in the EU can, but only companies that do so will be subject to the mad regs, instead of all of the country.

Only UKIP wants to hear both sides of the climate debate, instead of just assuming the co2 is evil and it's all mans fault stance.

I could go on. You Blue Labour advocates just don't get that do you? You still think that the EU is some vague issue about being friends with Europe.

How wrong can you be.

[Tory T]

A Labour Europhile MEP thanks UKIP:

"Going up in the lift in Strasbourg with Nigel Farage, he tells me that the Labour Party should be delighted with him....(article)...And Farage is right to say that, in electoral terms, it is Labour that stands to gain."

http://corbett.pir2.info/blog/2007/01/going-up-in-lift-in-strasbourg-with.html

Vote UKIP = Vote Labour EU supporters. Labour MEPs for UKIP!

[Tory T]

It really is tiresome to watch Matt Davies, a co-author of UKIP Home, take over ConservativeHome threads to promote his pro-Labour, pro-electing Europhile MPs party.

Conservatives can't really have proper debate if signed up anti-Tory ukippers, who are happy to work to defeat our Eurosceptic MPs and candidates, hog the sit. Just my two penn'orth.

[Rudyard.]

At last,some clarity on the UKIP aims and goals.

Well said Matt Davies.

It should be perfectly clear to all of us here that UKIP will be around for a long time to come,they are more than a match for us now on many things.

Anyone who claims to be a Tory Eurosceptic knows full well that the EU is still attacking our people and our country and we have a new Leader who condones it 100%.

[Gospel of Enoch]

"The only political party really capable of pulling the UK out of the disasterous EU is the Conservative Party." Oh Yes? You lot have given us Rome, Maastricht, the Single European Act, and drove Powell to leave. You stabbed the Blessed Baroness - the greatest living Tory - in the back when she saw the light at Bruges. Now, she's written in "Statecraft": "UKIP took Tory votes because they had a clearer and more principled position on the EU".

You may well fantasise about the Tories taking us out of the EU, BC, but they haven't and won't. Deal with it.

[malcolm]

Mark McCartney, I would suggest that Mark Fulford and I are both right. In the vast majority of seats UKIP are as Mark says irrelevant but in a few such as Thanet South their vote probably made the difference between the Conservative candidate winning or not. They may be happy keeping an MP like Ladyman in power ,I'm not. I also really don't see the point of standing against people like IDS, Rosindell, Greg Hands etc.
I'm with those who don't think Ukippers should be banned from this site even 'though their frequent attacks on the Conservative party and the endless commercials for UKIP we have to put up with everyday are very boring.It's still apparent that most Ukippers appear to prefer to post on this site rather than their own which has hardly any comments at all.

[Esbonio]

I have always voted to return a Tory MP to Parliament and I like my local MP. That said I foind little yo disagree with UKIP's policies as described by Matt Davies above.

[Steve]

"More likely to join the greens!" I am in the wrong Party.

You can complain all you like but it is the most fundemental issue at the heart of all poicy. By not addressing it you accept that we will end up in a federal Europe , thats how the electorate see it, and a slong as you are happy to argue for that then no problem. It is no solution to ignore it.

[UKIP MAN]

Ho HO HO.....

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

"It really is tiresome to watch Matt Davies, a co-author of UKIP Home, take over ConservativeHome threads to promote his pro-Labour, pro-electing Europhile MPs party." -I TOTALLY agree?

Apart from Matt Davies, who else is a UKUP troll? Chris Palmer? Andrew Woodman? Let's name and shame them!

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Charred Knobble is still posting here using an alias...

[Tory T]

Justin...sigh. There are those of us who have a genuine concern about overt ukippers posting endlessly on endless ukip threads to plug their party which is out to defeat Eurosceptic Tory candidates.

This means actual UKIP supporters and in the case of Matt Davies, an editor of UKIPhome. Why he gets a platform here to aid his fight to help Labour I don't know. Endless boring on about ukip. And as Malcolm says, it's because nobody actually reads ukip home.

That does NOT include sound, solid, Eurosceptic Tories like the truly great and sound Andrew Woodman, who is working for a Conservative victory at the next General Election.

In fact if you want to see the moral bankruptcy of ukip you have to bear in mind that they are the enemy of Tories like Dan Hannan, Roger Helmer, Philip Hollobone, Nirj Deva, John Redwood, countless others. I count myself on that wing of the party although I am not for total withdrawal, I am for a radical renegotiation.

I am heartened to see the great "popular revolt" at the top of the thread from ukip-weary Tories wondering why on earth we are giving our enemies the PR they crave and helping them to get Labour MPs and councillors in. But while many of us would have preferred to see "Key Blair aide arrested in dawn raid" than "Europhile backbencher says something provocative about fringe party" as a story NONE of us are calling for less comment from the REAL Eurosceptics who are determined to get the only party that can rescue us from Europe's current madness, the Conservatives, into power.

Let's save our fire for the actual ukip trolls like Michael McGough, Matt Davies etc, the ones who try to promote our enemies in every thread.

As Nigel Farage himself told a Labour EU loving MEP, "The Labour Party should be delighted with me."

Hear hear!

[John Irvine]

"Conservatives can't really have proper debate if signed up anti-Tory ukippers, who are happy to work to defeat our Eurosceptic MPs and candidates, hog the sit."

What an utterly pathetic comment from Tory T, and it speaks for itself

So why doesn't he swamp UKIP with his Eurocompliant "Tory" backup team? Looks like they've gone AWOL.

The main unofficial site for UKIP is
http://www.democracyforum.co.uk and
it is at least as busy as CH. I am a Tory, not UKIP, but I find a lot to agree with there.

I wish that all the UKIP patriots would come over to our party and get stuck in fighting the leftist infiltrators.

[Angelo Basu]

The thing about the list of policies Matt D posted for UKIP is that they are not in fact what UKIP will do. They won't do anything because they won't win a majority at an election. Just as the BNP won't be "encouraging" those of non-white Western European descent to repatriate themselves with generous financial assistance, the Green Party won't be pursuing a negative growth strategy to take the population of Britain down to 20-30 million, ect ect ect.

UKIP are relevant to the extent that they draw away votes and support from people who want to protest against parties who don't uniformly and unequivocally advocate leaving the EU but they are (in all but the Euro Elections) pure protest votes- not positive votes in favour of a party to do something, but negative votes against what the other parties have chosen to do. The fact that UKIP votes have led to the election of pro-EU Labour and LibDem MPs against Conservative candidates who are anti-EU shows that their voters aren't ultimately bothered about what the MP they will actually get will do. The rational thing for UKIP to do if they were genuine in their desire to promote anti-EU policies to really happen would be to decline to stand against any MP or candidate who had a reasonable chance of election and who was also anti-EU, regardless of their party.

[Tory T]

John, because in the real world nobody actually cares about ukip. Their by-election shares have been pathetic. Their council election shares even worse. You're talking 50 votes in Horsham. I am focussed on getting out the EU loving Labour MP who sits in my patch and getting the Eurosceptic Tory candidate elected. As one who despises Brussels with all my heart, Labour fellow-travellers like UKIP make me sick. Farage boasts to a Europhile, EU Constitution loving Labour MEP of how much he is helping him. I call that despicable.

My focus is on getting Eurosceptics, not Labour, into government. I've no time to go assist the fringe enemies of our party in getting the oxygen of publicity that they need.

[Gospel of Enoch]

"Leftist infiltrators"... What happened to the days of Enoch Powell saying Vote Labour? And aren't the late Peter Shore's widow and son-in-law core UKIP?

[Ted]

Tory T - I assumed this thread was a playroom to keep our UKIP friends amused so the Conservatives could discuss real politics on the other threads.

[John Irvine]

"ect ect ect"

What's that supposed to mean?

[malcolm]

You're a nicer guy than me Tory T, you gave a reasonable answer to John Irvine after his usual vitriolic post to you.I wouldn't have bothered.
One fact that you got completely wrong though was the Horsham result. You've hugely exagerated their vote,they actually polled 40!!
I would also endorse your comments about Andrew Woodman, he's a good guy and his posts are usually spot on.

[Angelo Basu]

Can't a man put in a few typos? Anyway, haven't you read your Molesworth? Swiz!

[John Irvine]

"Tory T - I assumed this thread was a playroom to keep our UKIP friends amused so the Conservatives could discuss real politics on the other threads."

If you look at the log top right you'll see that almost everybody is talking about UKIP.

Why not? UKIP is all about the EU and the EU is the overwhelmingly important issue that affects all of our lives and threatens to destroy British independence.

I was most impressed by the post from Matt Davies (evidently different from Matt Davis).

Having read Tory T's posts before I think he is being outrageously deceitful in suggesting that he is really on the same side as Roger Helmer, Dan Hannan etc. The truth is that Tory T is an out and out Cameroon Europhile .

[Caroline Hope]

I despise the EU and live in a hyper marginal - LAB held by 163 votes - but have a fervent Europhile CON ppc. What do I do? Help to bring in a parliamentarian who might split the party (listen again to Howe's resignation speech if you think the EU had nothing to do with his treachery) if we're ever in govt again, or do I abstain/vote UKIP?

[Andrew Woodman]

So I'm a UKIP troll am I Justin, because I ran a campiagn to have my Conservative MEP reinstated I presume. I am very Eurosceptic and favour John Redwoods approach to the EU. If that's me named and shamed then consider it done.

One day Justin your name calling and false accusing will get you into a lot of trouble you know.

[Gospel of Enoch]

"or do I abstain/vote UKIP?" - If you despise the EU and the BlueLabour PPC that much, then why not offer to stand as UKIP's PPC?

[John Irvine]

"One day Justin your name calling and false accusing will get you into a lot of trouble you know."

I hope it does. I would love to see Justin Hinchcliffe at the uncomfortable end of a libel writ.

That clown is a disgrace to our party.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

I wasn't sure - that's why I used a question mark. Please accept my aplogies. I'm keeping a list of names...

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Caroline Hunt - if I were you I'd vote for Jane. Talk to her about Europe, you may well be surprised to what she has to say...

[Esbonio]

What is the point of being an MP if Parliament
simply genuflects to the EU?

[John Irvine]

"I wasn't sure - that's why I used a question mark. Please accept my aplogies. I'm keeping a list of names..."

Grovel...grovel...

Well done Andrew!

[RodS]

Now is the time to pressure all MPs/candidates to support Better off Out.The issue of Britain's unfettered sovereignty to do whatever is in its best interests is at the core of every other policy area you can think of. We are giving this away day by day. Review after review has concluded that the economic benefits are neutral at best and yet the political cost is enormous. We must work harder to get across to ordinary voters that Eurocreep and the EU are not simply technical low agenda quibbles - they are at the root of every policy debate not just at General Elections, but at Local Council elections as well. 15 January 2007

Just for once it would be great to hear from all those pro-EU posters, just one indispensable reason why we need to be in the EU Institution rather than simpy a trading partner and ally.

[HF]

RodS I agree we would be better off out.

But to win the GE we need to talk about other things that the voters are interested in.

As John Redwood said. The Conservatives are the most Eurosceptic of the 3 main parties. So votes that get the Euro leaning Labour and the Euro loving Lib Dems more MPs is stupid as it is the worst of 3 choices (in England).

Best move UKIP could do is offer BOO opt outs to all 650 candidates not just the 190 sitting Tory mps (+ Austin Mitchell and DUP).

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

http://www.euromove.org.uk/

http://www.cge.org.uk/

[Tory T]

Would any ukip defender like to comment on Nigel Farage boasting to the Labour MEP

"The Labour Party should be delighted with me."?

Care to defend Farage boasting that he keeps Europhiles in power?

[Matt Davies]

The Conservative party had its chance to make UKIP "go away". Simply having the policy to have elected British politicians making the decisions for our country.

You chose to sub-contract all of that out to an unelected, corrupt EU, run by crooks and communists like Peter Mandelson.

You blew it big time. You failed your country, just when it really need you. You are not fit for purpose, so step a side and make room for a party that is.

That goes for the other two branches of the LibLabCon party too. All the same, all pathetic shells of what they were.

[Barney]

I do not belive this for a second. UKIP will do their best to field candidates in every seat, no matte what the views of the Tory candidate.

All they will achieve, if anything, is to ensure Labour government for a further term.

[Gospel of Enoch]

"to win the GE we need to talk about other things that the voters are interested in."

You could try Post Office closures - oh sorry, that's EU directives on competition and state aid, and Camerloon won't let you talk to the electorate about the "Elephant in the room", will he...

[Matt Davies]

Believe it. It makes no odds to people who understand that the LibLabCon party all WANT to take their orders from the EU and promise to keep doing so.

More people wake up to the fact the old parties are just a shell game. Whichever shell you choose, you get more EU.

UKIP is now getting the money and the support that will see it make real progress. It's going to happen sooner or later, so get used to it.

You had your chance and you blew it. No one believes the lies anymore.

[Tory T]

Yeah, Matt Davies, I thought you'd dodge that one.

[Matt Davies]

I couldn't give a toss what an out and out EUphile traitor, who willing tells lies to further his own disgusting cause.

Maybe you Tories should stop listening to such voices too.

[Og]

If you are right, Barney, there is something the Tories can do about it now. They can propose a referendum on EU membership and promise to abide by the result.

[Esbonio]

As each year passes I feel the EU is increasingly invidious both in principle and in practice. We thought we were joining a free trade area, not an undemocratic nascent European state. Why any Conservative MP should want to support the EU in its current form is beyond me.

[?]

Tory T = MM?

[Valedictoryan]

This site should be renamed ConservativeZoo.

The Conservative Party is not going to advocate EU/EC withdrawal for the simple reason that it would be electoral suicide. Those who can not handle that simple fact would be BOO.

UKIP debates on CH are universally unedifying. I can’t imagine that they present us in a favourable light to potential Conservative voters and I really struggle to understand why the editor gives them such disproportionate coverage.

[Torygirl]

It looks as if UKIP's ploy is succeeding with several MPs signing up to BOO.

If you feel, as I do, that the EU is doing enormous damage to Britain, you should be encouraging all Conservative MPs to sign up to BOO. If they refuse it is a signal that they are Europhiles and therefore you could seek to deselect them.

Perhaps another way would be to get them to sign up to The British Declaration of Independence. www.bdicampaign.org

[Gospel of Enoch]

"I really struggle to understand why the editor gives them such disproportionate coverage."

Perhaps he's a Tory in the Powellite, Thatcherite tradition, rather than a disciple of St. Francis of Maastricht and the other Camerloons?

[Esbonio]

I appreciate the Conservative Party is highly unlikely to advocate EU/EC withdrawal. However it does not follow from that the Tories should not criticise the EU. More particularly as a voter I want to know whether my Tory candidate is a eurosceptic or a europhile.

[John Coles]

You may find the UKIP debate unedifying, V. , but it is vitally important to the future of the Conservative party: if some sort of accommodation were ever reached with UKIP, then the Conservative party would romp home at the next General Election.
I find some of these calls for threads to be deleted whenever they encompass UKIP very immature. Well done to the Editor for letting free speech take its course.

[malcolm]

Are we sure that we have our priorities right here? 3 Diary threads and UKIP/Europe has attracted more than 3 times the NHS thread and more than 7 times the defence thread. Even 'though a fair proportion of the posts on this thread came from UKIP trolls that's not impressive is it? Needless to say the UKIPers have nothing to say about Defence and the NHS. What a suprise!

[Daniel VA]

Valedictoryan, as ever your words sum up my feelings almost perfectly.

The issue of Europe/UKIP does receive a disproportionate amount of attention given its overall relevance in the wider political picture, however in defence of this site's Editor, the same has been true of the Telegraph lately and this site is playing to the same target audience it seems.

Like it or not, the threads on this subject attract the most comments, and so name-checking UKIP is a quick and easy way of driving up this site's hit count, as the usual gang of trolls and malcontents rush to post here, pausing only to wipe the foam from their chins every now and then.

[Tam Large]

How can withdrawal be "electoral suicide" when, in spite of the torrent of pro-EU propaganda from the media and concensus parties, a majority of the public are sick of the EU and a large percentage are now in favour of withdrawal.

Advocating EU withdrawal would be the key to victory, especially with all the benefits it would bring from the reduction in regulation, better trade - through EFTA, and globally - and the extra money it would release to use for social needs, NHS etc. Dave could fund all his pet projevts, and more, and not need to increase tax to do it.

I'd rather have money to save my local hospital and pay for better services, than give it away to the corrupt and wasteful EU - and I bet most people would...

[eugene]

The UKIP are a gift to Labour and the LibDems and their existence to date has helped to achieve more Lab/LibDem alliance MPs. They have helped Britain become more pro-Europe in other words.

That is the sum of the UKIP.

The Conservatives are a powerful mainstream Party and we should not be wasting much more cyberspace on this little group of 'friutcakes and loonies'.

Period.

[Esbonio]

malcom

And I don't see many posts on defence from the
europhiles either.

[Gospel of Enoch]

"Needless to say the UKIPers have nothing to say about Defence".

Eurepean Rapid Reaction Force, anyone?

[Mark McCartney]

This is a forum for conservatives, not a forum restricted to supporters of David Cameron.

Conservatives do not need to belong to the party currently headed by Cameron. There is no reason at all why they should not be members of UKIP and many are.

UKIP's intervention at the last General Election had a profound effect in up to 27 marginals, as has been acknowledged by Malcolm and a couple of the other more intelligent Cameroons. At the next General Election it could make all the difference between Tory success and failure.

That's why we need to co-operate with UKIP in order to ensure that we are working together and not against each other. If Cameron doesn't like that maybe it's time for him to consider his position.

[Adam]

Hmmm so UKIP want to join EFTA according to Matt D...

That's interesting I wonder whether they've actually bothered to look into it. EFTA and the EEA (which is EFTA and EU together) don't perhaps look as wholly independent and sovereign as UKIP would have us believe.

For a start they have a Council of Ministers, an EFTA Court, and the EFTA Surveillance Authority (checking we meet our obligations). And what do those obligations include?

Why such things as guaranteeing the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital, as well as equal conditions of competition and non-discrimination against individuals. Sound familiar? It should do - it's very EU. Of course, if you have free movement of persons, then how exactly is that different to situation we have now? Answer - it isn't. Does it mean UKIP is either lying or being willfully stupid when it says it wants to stop EU immigration by joining EFTA? Yes it does. Does it mean that pretending that the only regs that will effect UK business are those they have to comply with in order to sell into the EU is false? Yes it does.

Given that EFTA negotiate together in trade talks (like the EU) does that mean that saying Britain would negotiate independently is wrong? Yes.

In short, UKIP are either telling porkies or haven't bothered to actually look in to their founding policy.

[Elaib]

From what I know of Mr Corbett, he disembles with every word. His visceral hatred of UKIP quite makes some on this forum seem cuddly towards them.
The thought of Farage giving him the time of day is strange (though he was stuick in a lift with the blighter), that he would have said something like this stranger still, and yes I do know and have drunk with them both.
If, and I repeat, if Corbett says anything of the kind I suspect the truth is that he said it, and Farage laughed, thus Corbett would have taken that as an affirmative.

What Farage thinks of Corbett is unprintable in a family blog like this.

[Richard]

UKIP will only become a threat if they can persuade the majority of the public that they are about more than Europe. A lot of their policies wouldn't look out of place in a standard Conservative manifesto (which is why comparing them to Militant like some people do is so absurd). However, I suspect that most UKIP members joined primarily because of the Europe issue and this will hinder UKIP's attempt to focus on other areas. UKIP was founded as a primarily anti-EU party and that is the way it will probably remain.

I am all for EU withdrawal if we can't change our relationship into that of a free-trading partner from within but I see no chance of this happening by voting UKIP.

[Richard]

"Given that EFTA negotiate together in trade talks (like the EU) does that mean that saying Britain would negotiate independently is wrong? Yes."

I'm not sure but I think Switzerland has more independence because despite being a member of EFTA it isn't in the EEA. It still gets free trade with the EU but I think it doesn't get some advantage related to customs. I will try and find the website I got this from, I ought to have saved it in my bookmarks.

[Richard]

Ah, here it is:

http://www.globalbritain.org/BNN/BN15.htm

Apologies for 3 posts in a row.

[Petrina Holdsworth]

Yes Eurosceptic Tory MP`s will get a better deal from UKIP.There is no point fighting our friends in other parties and it will help protect the eurosceptic wings of those parties .Our nation needs withdrawists inside Parliament asking the questions that need asking .

How can Cameron hold his head up now that Joseph Daul has been elected as leader of the EPP? The man is an appalling example of
a Europhilia -pro EU constitution ,pro Euro ,anti British and under investigation for involvement in high level corruption.

It just goes to show that Cameron should have stuck to his word and pulled out of that shower immediately. The more he tries to please the EU the more he acts as a recruiting sergeant for UKIP and quite right too.

[Mark McCartney]

Petrina you won't remember me but I was privileged to meet you at an anti-EU rally two or three years ago. I was really impressed by your presentation.

I'm afraid the fudge on the EPP shows that Cameron can't be trusted, but I disagree that decent Tories should up and join UKIP.

I believe they should stay in the Conservative Party and speak for Britain.

[Martin Cole]

Petrina Holdsworth is of correct. Look what your own party MEP, Roger Helmer, in his electronic newsletter had to say on that very subject just today:
$$$$$$$$$$$$
Protectionist, Statist, Integrationist -- the EPP's New Leader

Last week the EPP group in the parliament elected Joseph Daul as their new leader (the former leader, Hans-Gert Poettering, will become President of the parliament as a whole). Daul is a French farmer. Indeed he was leader of the French farmer's union at the time of the ban on British beef, and was a keen advocate of the ban. He lives near Strasbourg, and is a strong supporter of the Straz/Brux two-seat lunacy.

He takes a typical French view of European matters -- protectionist, statist, corporatist, and a passionate advocate of the euro and the EU Constitution.

The third round of voting was head-to-head between Daul and Gunnar Hokmark, a Swedish Moderata. Gunnar is an Atlanticist and a free marketeer. He is the nearest thing you will find to a Conservative amongst continental MEPs. And the EPP rejected him for Daul. This tells you all you need to know about the EPP.

Thank heaven that David Cameron is committed to getting us out of the EPP in 2009. But with Daul in charge, there is nothing to be gained by delay. We should quit now.

Late news: on Jan 13th, the media reported that Daul is under investigation for alleged mis-use of public funds, related to farming subsidies used by French farming unions in 1991 to 1999. When Cameron decided to leave the EPP, opponents said (wrongly, in my view) that we should end up sitting with some pretty dodgy characters. Now it seems that staying in the EPP, we're being led by a pretty dodgy character!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Some above have queried Farage's truthfulness as to whether he would keep his word, those should read my Teetering Tories blog on David Davis and Question Time to reflect on such matters. First the EPP, now the English Parliament? Cameron and Davis? Keeping one's word?

http://www.teeteringtories.blogspot.com

[Dontmakemelaugh]

"Lastly Editor, delete posts from UKIP on this site - we must deprive these goons of the oxygen of publicity they crave".

I agree, we should not listen to others that disagree; the Conservative Party has been doing that successfully for quite sometime and has greatly profited by it. Heath was the most active advocate of that policy; his sacking of Enoch Powell was a master stroke and in came Labour. The Tories, of course, greatly profited by the removal of Heath.

Margaret showed her dislike and sceptical attitude to the EU and won three elections. The Tories continued to dsagree with those that didn't agree and gave her the elbow. That master stroke gave us gave us Major

Major didn't want to listen to those that disagreed and wanted to be in heart of Europe and in came Labour; Blair promising to keep the pound (he didn't mean it). The Tories and the Country greatly profited by the removal of Major. The Tories, therefore, were quite right to disagree.

So now we come to Dave. He will stoically keep the policy of disagreeing and turning a deaf ear to those that disagree going and the UKIP is benefitting; eventually the traditional Tories will benefit; which again shows the wisdom of not listening to those that disagree.

The Tories are, quite rightly, disagreeing and ignoring those banging on about the EU, immigration, tax, the real threat of Islamism, UKIP or scientists that oppose the consensus theory of climate change, and when the Tories lose the next election Labour will gain - and so it would appear that Britain will not be any the worse off and the Tories will gain, by once again, becoming a Conservative Party

In other words, if you wont to shut off those that disagree by burying you head in the sand to avoid listening to those that disagree, there is every chance that your your opponent will take the opportunity to kick you up the Kyber Pass, having been given such an inviting target - then you will listen, but too late in the day.

[Esbonio]

Mark McCartney is right. The Tories should try and come to an accomodation with UKIP but I very much doubt Cameron would ever do that.

To date I have taken the visceral objection some have for UKIP at face value. I have assumed they oppose UKIP so strongly because UKIP takes potential Tory votes and/or because they are europhiles who want a European super-state. However since some if not all the policy ideas attributed by some on this site to UKIP might strike many Tories as fair and reasonable I am not sure if my analysis is entirely complete and correct. I suspect UKIP are disliked by some ("modernisers"?)as much for their wider conservatism as they are for the narrow issue of Europe. This may well explain the apparent depth of the animosity. It would also suggest a rapprochement would never suit the modernisers' agenda.

[RedSam]

I love the way that you Tories think the only way to defeat UKIP is to take their ground - if only you would listen to Rifkind, tell all the BOO Tories and extremists to piss off to UKIP and then maybe you can truly claim the centre ground and make some progress.

[Mark McCartney]

There are currently 90 messages on this exciting and vibrant thread, which proves that the EU is the issue that we the patriotic grassroots actually wish to discuss.

This country faces the greatest threat to its liberties since the rise of Hitler and still there are appeasers who want us all to bury our heads in the sands.

As I said, the Conservatives grassroots must stand up and speak for Eritain. We're certainly hearing nothing from the party "leadership"

[Daniel VA]

"Margaret showed her dislike and sceptical attitude to the EU and won three elections."

Thatcher signed us up to the Single European Act.

Like more moderate politicians, she was pragmatic enough to recognise that membership of the EC/EU brings benefits as well as drawbacks and sensible enough recognise that Britain's best interests would be served through reform of the EC/EU, not withdrawal from it.

[HF]

Mark McCartney "There are currently 90 messages on this exciting and vibrant thread, which proves that the EU is the issue that we the patriotic grassroots actually wish to discuss."

And there are 17,000 UKIP members in the UK very interested in this while 40+ million voters are very uninterested.

[Esbonio]

Off the top of my head I cannot think of a single useful "reform" of the EU to date. I still remember my economics teacher in the 70s telling us what a joke CAP was and we still have it.

[HF]

This thread sums up the different views within UKIP more than a debate inside the Conservative party.

We have Matt Davies with a call to destroy the Conservative party and Petrina with a call to influence it.

Folk what are you? Is UKIP the multi-tonne panzer out to destroy the consevativs through Labour and LD winning elections or is it more realistic wanting to work with eurosceptics to achieve a common goal of getting out of the EC?

[Mark McCartney]

>>40+ million voters are very uninterested<<

Your proof?

The stock weasel words from appeasers who want us to turn our backs while the EU continues to hi-jack our liberties.

[Denis Cooper]

"Thatcher signed us up to the Single European Act."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/14/nbook1401.xml

"The man who distracted Maggie"

"Obituaries of Lord Cockfield, the dim Eurofanatic who served as our senior European Commissioner in the 1980s, missed the part he played in one of the most grievous examples of a British prime minister being outwitted by our European "partners". In 1985, Messrs Mitterrand, Kohl and Delors were keen to see a major advance in integration, transforming the European Community into a European Union, with its own currency.

Such a great step, they agreed, would need two new treaties. Their chief obstacle was Mrs Thatcher, fiercely opposed to any new treaty. She was, however, keen to reach agreement on "the internal market", for which Commissioner Cockfield was drawing up proposals. It was this which led, in May 1985, to the great "Milan ambush".

With all her attention on the single market, Mrs Thatcher did not realise at the Milan Council that it was being used to lure her into a corner, where she could be forced to accept a new treaty. The resulting Single European Act made a huge increase in the powers of the supranational government, and paved the way to the next treaty, signed at Maastricht six years later, setting up the EU.

The way she was tricked at Milan alerted Mrs Thatcher to the true nature of the "European project", which in turn played a larger part than is generally realised in the events that were to force her from office, before she could sabotage that second treaty and the single currency.

That Lord Cockfield had distracted her from what her "partners" were really up to in 1985 was one reason she refused to reappoint him to a second term three years later. As a contributor to the cause of European integration it was his finest hour – even if his obituarists last week failed to notice."

[Matt Davis]

There is a very simple, easy and final way for Cameron to halt the UKIP bandwagon in its tracks as well as considerably settle down the internal debate on Europe within the Tories. That is for him to make a firm commitment to offer the British people a binding referendum on continued membership. In fact this ought to be a course of action that would resonate well at CCHQ since everything else emanating from there now appears to be focus group and "public opinion" led, rather than coming from principles or beliefs, and this would simply be an extension of that approach on a bigger and more democratic scale.It would settle the argument once and for all and would allow the country as well as the party to move on whatever the result.

[Matt Davis]

And yes there are two Matt Davis', me without an e and Matt Davies, with an e, from UKIP Home who is somebody different.

[greg]

I thought ConservativeHome welcomed the Conservative defeat in Thanet South! ;)