Your chance to vote for the repeal of the European Communities Act...

For once Radio 4's Today programme is not demanding more spending of taxpayers' money or other forms of state activism but it is seeking listeners' views on the repeal of legislation.  Archbishop Cranmer is supporting Daniel Hannan's call for the repeal of the European Communities Act 1972.  Dan makes the case (again) in today's Telegraph:

"For the privilege of having our democracy traduced, our businesses asphyxiated, our resources plundered, our trade balance debauched and our older, trans-continental friendships scorned, we are paying Brussels £12 billion every year — enough to abolish inheritance tax and capital gains tax and still have enough left over to scrap stamp duty."

Vote here.

And once you've finishing voting on that site do take part in BBC1's Politics Show's 'political hero vote'.  Tony Benn is currently nearly 3% ahead of Mrs Thatcher.  Your vote could make the difference...

And then, of course, there's ConservativeHome's own monthly survey!!

Comments

[TomTom]

I voted 4 times to repeal the European Communities Act 1972...............I shall do so again

[Denis Cooper]

Well done, Daniel Hannan.

[Sean Fear]

Done

[Richard Carey]

I voted 4 times to repeal the European Communities Act 1972...............I shall do so again

Congratulations to TomTom, I think - for claiming to defend the principles of democracy by apparently voting 4+ times in one ballot! (unless I've misunderstood and there have been other votes involved...)

I'm sure not even the march of QMV in the various EU competencies (although with the way that the EU is currently working, that phrase is pretty oxymoronic) can match that in disrespect for democracy!

[Chris Palmer]

As Dan Hannan rightly says in the Telegraph today - why just repeal, why not all?

[comstock]

And once you've finishing voting on that site do take part in BBC1's Politics Show's 'political hero vote'. Tony Benn is currently nearly 3% ahead of Mrs Thatcher. Your vote could make the difference...

Thanks for the heads up-vote cast. Can't have *her* catching him now can we.

That was what you meant, wasn't it ;)

[Ken Stevens]

Unless we regain sovereignty by leaving the EU, it doesn't matter which party we vote for in British general elections, as it makes damn-all difference! Add to that the damn-all difference in philosophy between NuLab and NuCon, along with the irrelevance of LibDem, and it is no wonder that ordinary folk like me will "waste" our vote by placing it with any other candidate but! (-assuming we bother to vote at all).

I want a genuine choice of who governs my nation. It should be the Tories offering this to me. Pity 'bout that, as I won't be returning to the fold unless & until they do.

Friendship, cooperation and trade but not a Eurostate. Love Europe;hate EU.

[Editor]

Naughty Comstock, naughty!

[Richard Carey]

It should be the Tories offering this to me. Pity 'bout that, as I won't be returning to the fold unless & until they do.

I hope that we (the Conservatives, it's a shame to have to say that explicitly on this site!) can persuade you that we are. Yes, we've taken a different direction. We haven't been afraid to take a position on politicaly difficult issues such as the environment and climate change, so you shouldn't doubt our ability to grasp nettles on some level.

I believe that we're not going to join the nutters in UKIP and we shouldn't by coming out for EU withdrawal. The EU is an issue that appealed to less than 15% of the electorate at the last GE, was ranked as most significant by less than 7% of Conservative voters in determining their VI, and would put us in ludicrous company. I haven't seen any equivalent polling to this more recently, but would be interested on any polling evidence you can point me to on the salience of the issue.

Yes, we have alot of persuading to do, Ken - especially as the very last thing in our European policy is to be subsumed further into a political union that wasn't working for British interests. That is a key thing that we need to persuade you of, while concentrating relentlessly on the other issues that really confront the British people.

[David York]

Having read comments about the EU I wish to comment. As a business man I am sick of having new directives and regulations appearing for no apparent reason. (one pictures a 'think tank' in Brussels working overtime to come up with the next tranche!!) I believe the UK is culturally far removed from mainland Europe, particularly France and Germany where the norm is high taxation, loads of regulation and control. The UK blossoms when it is free of these heavy burdens. If we continue to be bit by bit taken over (and make no mistake it is happening) then our attraction to foreign investors will disappear and our economy will become turgid and our wealth diminished. There is a great deal lack of understanding about the EU amongst the general public, which perhaps explains why it does not feature strongly in the surveys referred to by Richard Carey. If the true intent of the EC were drilled into the public then I feel there would be a huge objections.

Apart from that the EC lacks democracy on huge issues such as increasing membership or the Gallileo project. Finally as I am starting to rant, how come the EC commissioners are still at large, when I would be in jail for failing to produce one year's audited accounts, let alone the TWELVE YEARS the EC has failed to produce them????

David York

[John Ashworth]

Lets hope repealing the European Commuities 1972 Act wins, but what an embarrasment that would be to Cameron, who has sunk the parties past fishing policy, which was dependent on amending the ECA72, the only clear Policy our Conservative Party had. Cameron's team have no intention of amending or repealing that Act, only adding to it.

[Delphine Gray-Fisk]

Excellent comments above re Britain's membership of the EU 'oligarchy'.

But why is it that we bemoan the public's lack if knowledge, and therefore interst, in this project?

It is because our politicians have not appraised themselves of the (awful) facts and have not let them be known far and wide. Instead they hide behind the parapet in the hope of achieving a front bench promotion.

Where are the politicians of principal and conviction?

[michael mcgough]

"what an embarrasment that would be to Cameron, who has sunk the parties past fishing policy, which was dependent on amending the ECA72, the only clear Policy our Conservative Party had."

I would be unsurprised if UKIP adopt that fishing policy as their own!

[Ken Stevens]

Richard Carey |at 17:22

Very many thanks for taking the trouble to respond to my ignorant rant. I have no polling evidence on attitudes to the EU , as I'm not purporting to do otherwise than dare to place my personal opinion before you professionals! I'm an ordinary voter who feels that the EU is the overriding issue, uncaring as to whether that leaves me in a minority of one. On policies other than the democratic principle (and I also include the iniquities of devolution in this category), I'm content to leave matters to the experts, if I feel broadly OK with the drift, particularly nowadays when the main parties seem to be treading the same sort of ground.

I'm only on this site because I feel that I ought to still be a Tory voter (especially being in Wondrous Boris's constituency)but can't contemplate this unless the Party is cured of its Europhilia.

(For general info, I'm not a Little Englander. Mum worked in Germany between the wars so, unusually, I grew up liking ordinary Germans. Also, I used to be involved in [non-EU] committees and got on extremely well with my opposite numbers throughout Europe.)

[Richard Carey]

David,

I have to agree with you on the size of the regulatory burden being imposed on British business - as some of it has filtered down on to me in the last year or two at work, I genuinely sympathise.

I don't thnk it's helpful, though, as some posters do, to characterise the EU as being malign in intent. It is more akin to New Labour (ironic, really, given the penchant of both for new regulation!) in that the intent is sometimes good, but the methods used and the way they are implemented is totally unsuitable, particularly for the way that we in Britain do business. Small consolation, I agree, for those of us on the ground.

However, the numbers in my post were concerned primarily with electoral politics. The discussion above is a sophisticated argument, it's interesting to consider whether we would have time and communications "bandwidth" to put it across to the electorate, raise its salience with them and construct a selling point around it in the way that you imply?

Parties tend not to do well when they try to force their own internal prioritites and prejudices on the electorate, they do better when they genuinely listen and put forward real solutions on the day-to-day issues that truly matter to people now.

[Tory Loyalist]

I believe that we're not going to join the nutters in UKIP and we shouldn't by coming out for EU withdrawal.
_________________________________________________________________

Well that writes you off as a total waste of space then Richard.

Membership of the EU has been the biggest single disaster to hit this country since WWII. We need to come out of the EU and as quickly as possible.

I recognise the good work that is being done by our colleagues in UKIP, but to make this happen we need to move the Conservative Party firmly towards withdrawal.

Under Thatcher and Hague we lost a whole bunch of Eurofanatics. Now under Cameron, one or two have been slithering back on board.

We Tories were well rid of these people and the sooner we lose them permanently the better.

Scratch a Eurofanatic and you'll find a traitor.

[David Meikle]

Yet another post that confirms my fears that this website is turning into a forum for a minority of rightwing party members who are plainly unhappy or angry that Cameron is improving the party's fortunes by talking about issues the public are interested in, eg. education, NHS and the environment, and is moving the party back to its One Nation roots and the centre ground where it belongs. You seem to think repealing the European Communities Act or campaigning on issues we banged on about at the last two elections under Hague and Howard will somehow make us popular. Perhaps a reality check is needed.

[Esbonio]

Richard Carey at 18.22 does not think it is helpful to characterise the EU as malign in intent. Instead it is more more akin to New Labour. He is of course wrong on both counts.

[Richard Carey]

Very many thanks for taking the trouble to respond to my ignorant rant

Thanks, Ken - and it's not ignorant at all if it's your own genuinely held beliefs on something that matters to you!

It's interesting that you think the Party needs to "be cured of Europhilia", though. When DC has spoken about the need to be consistent in terms of the messages given at home and in Brussels, and about the need for the EU to reform the way it approaches poverty, security and so on, I wouldn't call it Europhile. When the Party has campaigned strongly against integrationist projects such as the constitutional treaty and against the HRA I certainly wouldn't call it Europhile. And when Conservative MEPs have relentlessly highlighted the fact the the EU accounts have not been signed off for 12 years and pinpointed every wastage of taxpayers money they can, I wouldn't describe the Conservative Party I work for as uncritically embracing the EU project!

But that's enough ranting of my own, Ken - I hope we can bring you on board in due course.

[Tory Loyalist]

Cameron only made one specific promise to the party when he became leader; to withdraw from the EPP.

He reneged on that promise, as so many of us knew he would. 100% of pre-leadership promises broken and of course we still have to listen to his ridiculous pronouncements about not "banging on" about the EU.

Well banging on" about the EU is exactly what patriotic members of the party are going to do, regardless of the views of Jeremy Cardhouse and his kitchen cabinet.

The rank-and-file of the party are firmly Eurosceptic. This is the one great issue around which most of us can rally and isolate the leftists.

We need to show, here and now, that we the Conservative Party are going to stand for British liberty against EU tyranny, and that means moving towards a phased and disciplined withdrawal from the EU.

Of course there are those who wil spout the tired old nonsense about being in but not run by the EU. We want no truck with them!

[Richard Carey]

I thought I should respond to the latest personalisation of debate by Tory Loyalist:

Well that writes you off as a total waste of space then Richard.

It's a good thing you don't get to make that judgement of me through my writings on a blog, then, isn't it?

But no, it doesn't, it marks me out as hopefully standing in the centre ground of British politics, encouraging my party to talk about the issues which genuninely concern the electorate.

I'm not dismissing the issues around EU politics, TL, I'm pointing out their level of salience with the electorate (our bosses in a democracy, remember?). I note that you haven't disputed the fgures I quoted on that.

100% of pre-leadership promises broken

I'd wait until the next set of european parliament elections before sticking your neck on the chopping block on that one.

Besides - are you forgetting that among other things DC promised to end the scandalous under-representation of women in the parliamentary party? As opposed to the current 9% in the House, over 38% of parliamentary candidates in winnable seats are female.

He is of course wrong on both counts.

Your view, "esbonio", and nothing more - and one that I can easily get used to!

[esbonio]

Richard

If you have or had to study legal construction of "intention" at the length I unfortunately had to, you might appreciate my view.

[Tory Loyalist]

Besides - are you forgetting that among other things DC promised to end the scandalous under-representation of women in the parliamentary party?
___________________________________________________________________

Typical isn't? As soon as we begin to discuss the greatest threat to British independence since the Battle of Bitain you throw up some PC navel-gazing irrelevance which concerns nobody except Cameron and his Notting Hill Set.

For all I care the parliamentary party could be 100% female so long as they were all pledged to get this country out of the EU...

ASAP!

[michael mcgough]

Where are the politicians of principal and conviction?

Some have signed up to the Better Off Out campaign!

[Richard Carey]

I was going to respond in detail to the concerns raised by "Tory Loyalist" and "esbonio" on this thread, but upon reading TL's latest outburst, I deleted what I'd hoped was an intelligent and considered response and gave up in disgust!

But for what it's worth, TL, I was earlier responding directly to your allegation that DC had not delivered on any pledges from the leadership campaign with a very clear factual demonstration that he has. That you chose to respond to that with a piece of pure bluster and blather is your problem.

[Richard Carey]

Where are the politicians of principal and conviction?

I don't know, I think they were replaced by ones of principle and conviction with education policies...

Sorry, couldn't resist the joke...:-)

[Don H]

I am sick and tired of the hostility being shown towards “UKIP nutters”. Let me ask a question:

As a Conservative Party member, an activist and stuffer of leaflets through doors for many, many years and a local Conservative councillor will I be regarded as a “nutter” if I finally lose my patience with Mr Cameron’s approach to Europe and decamp to UKIP?

Loyalty to my friends in the Conservative Party, and my years working towards a Conservative victory over Labour in our parliamentary seat at the next general election, has stayed my hand. But the time is coming when I may jump.

Cameron’s reneging on his promise to withdraw the MEPs from the EPP/ED group in the European parliament, the promise to withdraw from the Common Fisheries Policy rapidly backtracked on and the recent defection of six liberals, who now say the Conservative Party best represents their views, when it is well-known that the Liberals are extremely pro-European politically, does not bode well.

The real question is why do we alienate large numbers of UKIPs, or disregard their votes calculating that UKIP draws members equally from the main parties, when, with a little bit of Euroscepticism, we could claw back the Conservative members of UKIP?

Liberal and Labour Eurosceptics would never vote for a Conservative Eurosceptic, so UKIP offers them a home – Conservatives are generally not a million miles away from UKIP’s position (in reality) and UKIPs are not people who sit on their backsides. They might not be great in numbers but they are activists and we could do with them.

Look at the disproportionate effect of the Hunting lobby out on the streets. With the best will in the world, once the Hunting Ban Act is repealed, the Hunting lobby’s motivation to pound the streets has gone, though no doubt the excitement of politics will stay with some.

With Europe, or more correctly, the EU, disentanglement will be a long term struggle requiring some tough decisions and all hands will be needed at the pumps.

We need to embrace UKIP (or, at least, their members) – not knock them.

[John Irvine]

"I thought I should respond to the latest personalisation of debate by Tory Loyalist"

I know Im not the only member to notice that whereas about 90% of personal abuse comes from Cameron supporters it's always the traditionalists who get warnings and bans from the management.

I also know that others share my growing belief that these orders come from Central Office.

[Sean Fear]

Don H, I think UKIP are their own worst enemies, in terms of their infighting.

That said, I believe that leaving the EU is a perfectly respectable political viewpoint. Frankly, I think joining the (then) EEC in 1972 was a ghastly political error. It ought to be common ground within the Conservative Party that we want to see the powers of EU institutions hugely reduced, and the powers of national Parliaments correspondingly increased.

Saying that this issue is not high on the public's list of priorities is like saying that German rearmament wasn't high on the public's list of priorities in 1934. Quite true - but quite irrelevant.

[Richard Carey]

I also know that others share my growing belief that these orders come from Central Office.

That's right, John, you've finally rumbled me - I'm part of a secret CCHQ conspiracy, because a key part of our strategy for winning the next General Election is to belittle you and your mates on here... I hope that treatment is still available on the NHS, even in its current state, for paranoid delusions and so forth.

Seriously, my response to TL to which you refer was just that. While I'm more than big enough to take being called "a waste of space" by people like that, it doesn't mean I have to take to it kindly, especially when it's supposedly coming from members of my own party. In particular, it's especially childish when it arises in response to adult discussion of issues and electoral politics on this site.

[Don H]

Sean Fear could not have put it better.

I often liken our situation to Kevin McCarthy in the film "The Body Snatchers" running around warning people in vain that something terrible was about to happen to them. That is exactly our position on Europe.

Elsewhere on ConservativeHome, Mr Cameron was reported to be far more Euro-sceptic than people realise. I wish I could see some evidence.

All I have seen so far is an apparently Euro-sceptic hand extended as if for a hand shake only to put a thumb in the eye instead. You can't blame anyone for being sceptical about David C's Euro-scepticism.

UKIP has a half decent leader. If they really get their act together, the Conservative will be out of the picture. We, as individuals, will have to make some pretty stark choices:

1. We can b*gger off abroad (as millions have done already and millions more would like to do if only they had the money)

2. We can stay in the Conservative Party and hope it takes the EU on, pulling out if necessary

3. We can join UKIP knowing that it is the only political party which represents the views of a huge number if not the overwhelming majority of Britons.

As someone rightly said, the Referendum Party split the vote, as UKIP has done on occasion and allowed Labour in to government. Conservatives don't want that.

On the other hand, is a Labour-lite or Lib/Dem-lite government, cosying up to the EU while pretending to reform it from within (and planting useless wind-farms everywhere in the name of greenery) what Conservatives want either?

The wake-up call is coming soon and, if the Cameroons don't listen, the only sound they'll hear is the sound of Conservative activists' boots clumping across to UKIP.

[Esbonio]

Well said, Don.

[John Ashworth]

What one has to remember about the European Communities 1972 Act, is that it came from Heath signing the Treaty of Rome, which endorsement was only achieved by 6 or 7 votes in the House of Commons. That narrow verdict was achieved by Rippon lying to Parliament as to the true facts of our future membership to the then EEC. Why the EU is so important to the Conservative Party is becausing the lying and deception continues to this very day, and until the Party comes clean it will always be discredited, and its leaders are the only ones to blame for that fact.

[EML]

Can anyone else still vote, or is it just me being denied?

[John Irvine]

I recently received an email containing full details of Heath's membership of a shadowy German secret movement known as the DVD which organised UK entry into Europe.

I was amazed by the wealth of detail

Has anybody else seen this?

[R B Lee]

This is for all those here who want the Conservatives to have a closer relationship with UKIP or who are thinking of jumping ship to UKIP.

It is often said that a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour or the Liberal Democrats.

UKIP activists and supporters who post on ConservativeHome deny this and rubbish this suggestion.

Perhaps Conservatives should take time and see what UKIP are saying about fighting Conservatives:

http://www.ukiphome.com/comments.asp?sid=735

“We should be working now, in every possible seat where our votes could result in a defeat for a Conservative candidate.

This will help Labour and the LibDems this one time”

and

“If we do this, then for one more Labour term, there will be the real chance of a Tory split”

and on the Epping Forest Borough Council by election Grange Hill ward 14 December 2006:

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/about15916-0-asc-70.html

“…By winning this seat the Tories gained control of the Council which they were denied by our standing in another ward in May,when the long term incumbent and Eastern Regional Assembly member for Theydon Bois ward was ousted by 23 votes.UKIP took 136 votes having never stood there before.Had we had the notice of the Grange Hill by election in time we WOULD have stood and I’m confident that we would have denied the Tories success.”

And on the Basingstoke By election where the Conservatives Gained overall control of the council:-

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/about16603-0-asc-0.html

"As UKIP could split the vote and lose the Tories this seat and its overall majority, and shock Cons, it is strategically important."

and...

"The Tories are desperately worried about losing control there. This is exactly the type of situation where UKIP can give them a black eye."

"UKIP should be identifying similar situations up and down the country and sending in "flying squad" task forces to set up opposition. Meanwhile members on the ground should monitor Tory discontent, seeing if they can persuade Tory malcontents to make that vital switch."

"UKIP has to show that it can manipulate the Tories to suit the ends of the patriotic movement. Remember all the time that they're traitorous scum so don't hesitate to double cross them if necessary."

"I know these Tories. They're grasping unintelligent fools. Take them for all you can get."

...and on a forthcoming by election:-

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/post-158720.html&highlight=#158720

"Yes the tories are the real enemy. We must examine all the seats that are up next May and decide which seats, our intervention, will allow UKIP candidates to split the tory vote. We must put all our resources in handing victory to Labour or Liberal Democrat candidates. We must aim to make the Conservatives lose seats and lose control of Councils. This should be the aim of UKIP next May."

"Yes indeed - UKIP must destroy these Tories wherever we find them. We must locate their most vulnerable seats and go out of our way to split the Conservative vote. We must ensure we get Labour and Liberal Democrats Councillors elected. By losing Tories control of Councils we will cause shock waves all the way to Cameron’s door. These shock waves will reverberate around the Conservative party and cause them to split in half. Thos loyal euro-sceptic Conservatives will come flocking to UKIP their natural home. This must be the tactic adopted by every UKIP branch up and down the country. Destroy the Tories. Destroy them all."

I think these comments show what UKIPs game really is. Not to campaign to get Britain to withdraw from the EU.

Oh no - their aim is to defeat Conservative candidates and get Labour and Liberal Democrat candidates to win. Their long term aim is to split the Conservatives. What a pathetic waste of space and a waste of good votes. They are betraying everybody who votes for them.

A VOTE FOR UKIP IS INDEED A VOTE FOR LABOUR OR THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS

[anon]

"I am sick and tired of the hostility being shown towards “UKIP nutters”."

Actually, most of the hostility on these boards comes from said "nutters".

I'm really starting to think that unless the editor somehow brings some balance back to this site, both in terms of the editorials and the comment threads, that it should be renamed "ReactionaryHome".

I believe it was the editor's intent to create a balanced site that was welcoming to all Conservatives, but he has manifestly failed.

[Denis Cooper]

John Irvine @ 11:47 -

"I recently received an email containing full details of Heath's membership of a shadowy German secret movement known as the DVD which organised UK entry into Europe. I was amazed by the wealth of detail. Has anybody else seen this?"

I've heard about it, I can't attest to its veracity of course, but I don't find it entirely beyond belief. This organisation was supposedly set up by Canaris at some point during the war, to covertly further German interests after what he foresaw as the inevitable military defeat. As I recall Roy Jenkins and Geoffrey Ripon were also named as DVD recruits, all three allegedly through Balliol. As I say I've no way of knowing whether any of this is true, and I've never been convinced that it adds anything to the already overwhelming arguments for leaving the EU.

[John Irvine]

Well Mr Anon whoever you are it may have escaped your attention but more or less exactly one third of Conservatives (and growing) are now dissatisfied with Cameron and his antics.

We want the party to be run by a real Conservative. If it wasn't for the backstabbing malcontents and evil hostility shown to him IDS would still be in charge.

It's no surprise that the balance here is more like 50/50 because a lot of the so-called "satisfied" Conservatives are mindless geriatric gnomes who would blindly support the leader if he were Hitler himself. They would never come on a site like this and in any case are barely capable of stringing two words together.

Actually there is at least one of them on here but most of the poor dears think a computer is someone who takes the train to London every day.

[Daniel VA]

"We can join UKIP knowing that it is the only political party which represents the views of a huge number if not the overwhelming majority of Britons."

Is that the same UKIP that mustered a mere 1% in the recent CommunicateResearch opinion poll?

"The wake-up call is coming soon and, if the Cameroons don't listen, the only sound they'll hear is the sound of Conservative activists' boots clumping across to UKIP."

Codswallop. That particular nonsense has been spouted ever since David Cameron became leader but the threat of a mass exodus to UKIP has proved to be as empty as Charles Kennedy's drinks cabinet (see the aforementioned poll).

[John Irvine]

Still arranging the deckchairs on Cameron's Titanic Daniel?

It's sinking fast.

[Richard Carey]

It's no surprise that the balance here is more like 50/50 because a lot of the so-called "satisfied" Conservatives are mindless geriatric gnomes who would blindly support the leader if he were Hitler himself. They would never come on a site like this and in any case are barely capable of stringing two words together.

Congratulations, John - you have both won the Godwin Prize for this thread and managed to insult a large portion of the membership of the Party whose rights this site has done a lot to defend, all within the same sentence.

I guess they should all be grateful that there are (not) vastly superior creatures such as yourself to show them the way (back into the past...)

We want the party to be run by a real Conservative.

Don't you think that you might be rather arrogant in conferring on yourself the right to judge what constitutes a "real Conservative"? Fortunately for the rest of us, you don't actually get that right.

Francis Maude was quite right recently (read it again, it's an unusual thing to read on a blog, I know) when he said recently in an 18 Doughty Street interview that we'd gone wrong in the past in trying to define people out of the party, instead on into it. "Come and join us" should be our cry - I'm not sure how having John Irvine and his ilk vet everyone for being a "proper Conservative" helps in that.

[Esbonio]

Richard Carey at 13.20 is right. Insults are bad news but the problems iis that it was the leaders of the Tory Party who started insulting its supporters in the first place.

[Opinicus]

What this site needs is a verifiable registration facility rather than typepad so that people cannot post anonymously or pseudonymously and we could see who was who.

And

Yes of course we should leave the EU

[Richard Carey]

Insults are bad news but the problems iis that it was the leaders of the Tory Party who started insulting its supporters in the first place.

I agree with your sentiment, esbonio, but not with your latter statement of "fact".

I have to say that I have met a number of members of the party, both online and off, whose first response seemed to be to take offence at virtually anything they heard! However, on most of the matters concerned, be they policy matters or process, such as candidate selection, a calm explanation received a much more rational response, with far less of a sense of insult.

I don't believe that the leadership has set out to insult our supporters - but I do believe that we could have all done a better job of explaining to them where we're going and why.

[Esbonio]

And potential supporters.

[Don H]

Lest anyone thinks I am some kind or secret stirrer, can I say I have never posted on this site before so am not going to be known. My name is Don Hoyle, I live in Milton Keynes and have been a Conservative activist since the age of 9 (quite a few years ago, now). I have been a Conservative councillor for 6 years. I can assure the doubters that many, many people think along the sort of lines I have been espousing i.e. why do the senior strategists not throw us EU-doubters a few bones?

I am not an Austin Mitchell. When asked, "Will you stay quiet on Europe if it means Labour would win?" he answered, "Yes." And he's been as good as his word.

I do not want power as a government without being of some benefit to the general population. Just grabbing power for the sake of it is worse than Blair, or the late, unlamented S Hussain.

Fishermen are losing out, farmers are going bankrupt, hospitals are cutting back and treament is suffering due to Working Time Directives from the EU; they pass the stupid laws, leaving our home-grown quislings to gold plate them and get the blame for enforcement. Is this what we joined Europe for? (I was forgetting enforced metrication!!!)

Everything that has been said elsewhere is true or very probably true; UKIP are evolving and no doubt some tough cookies are charting out their strategies. But as Conservatives, we do not have to worry overmuch if our own message resonates with the voters esp if they see benefits to them flowing from Conservative-run country. My argument is that we will not be resonating with the voters if our Conservative government is just a rubber-stamp for Brussels directives. People have seen through this with Blair - what will be the point of just another Brussels-run Blair-lite government?

So if we really want to stick it up Europe (as it were) we will simply have to bite the bullet en masse to be effective. And that is when the activists will cross the floor. Sorry.

[David York]

Richard. Thank you for your comments(18.22 and 19.05 on29th) I would like to take you up on your point about 'salience' with the electorate. If your doctor in routine contact informs you that although there have yet been no obvious symptoms you have a life threatening problem, but that with proper treatment you will completely recover ,you are likely to be very interested and very grateful. You will see the analogy I'm sure... Also the things which are salient to the electorate but which do not fit with party policy or senior party members are referred to as 'populist' intended somehow to demean them. The classic Tory example was when Maggy had her initial election victory, strongly featuring a return to capital punishment in the party manifesto. This created huge support for the party, but of course the 'salience' to the electorate was completely ignored by William Whitelaw who insisted that a vote in the House was necessary and capital punishment did not return. The arrogance was amazing and highlighted to me that many politicians put self interest before 'salience of the electorate. In any event, back to the EU, an attempt by the party to educate the general public about the aims and goals of the federalist Commisioners would do no harm. I speak to people from many walks of life. When I explain what I hear about (mostly from Roger Helmer's newsletter) many are outraged. Some have the infuriating response of 'Well it doesn't matter what we think because it's going to happen anyway' GRRRHHH!!!! I do feel with effort, the party can tap into a rich vein of support. It must be a high priority for a successful tilt at the next General Election immediately after David Cameron stops trying to become an old style Labour Politician. Get stuck into destroying the cancer which the battle with UKIP has become, get a clear policy on Europe intended to give back the UK it's right to govern itself and start gathering support for the party. (Currently in my view the party has no direction or clarity) Next thing to start destroying is political correctness, another cancer eating away at our culture, devised by some faceless twerps who ought to find something worthwhile to do. Sorry I'm ranting again but then again I'm passionate and sincere and have clear thinking. I hope senior Torys feel likewise!

[Richard Carey]

David,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. The Thatcher example is interesting insofar as it makes me glad I was only 3 years old in 1979 and hence unable to vote, as I'd find it difficult to support any party that had a return to capital punishment in its manifesto. Different times, I think!

Your medical analogy had some merit too - I don't doubt that we should have some policy prescriptions ready to deal with the difficult issues posed by our relationship with the EU and the Commission's tendency to increase it's own powers. However, I sometimes try and separate this from political strategy. It does as you say present us with a decision there - do we attempt to move the voters onto your territory on Europe, and then campaign there, or campaign more centrally on other issues where the electorate is already there?

My other worry would be that by attempting to ramp this issue so that it moves voting intention if we then campaign on it, we lay ourselves open, after a year of changes, to a slightly jaded sigh of "here we go, same old Tories, banging on about Europe again..."

I personally would also hate us to look anything like UKIP! I'm not sure why you refer to a battle with them as becoming a "cancer" - they are a small minority party with comparatively few resources for a national campaign, although they are another opposition party in some campaigns on a seat-by-seat basis. I think there are ways of talking about EU issues without frothing at the mouth, though. I'm a constituent of Roger Helmer's too, and I think he and Chris Heaton-Harris have provided a few good examples of how to put some calm, rational Eurosceptic viewpoints.

[UKIP MAN]

well its nice to read all your comments again, hope you all have a wonderful new year and maybe if you get a decent leader you may stand a chance. By the way heres ours:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht3uVcv_16Y

[Daniel VA]

"Get stuck into destroying the cancer which the battle with UKIP has become..."

Wanton hyperbole won't do us any favours.

There is no battle with UKIP, who mustered a pathetic 1% in the most recently published opinion poll and pose only a minor threat of a few hundred stolen votes in a handful of seats.

The real battle is with Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the nationalists and the apathy of disaffected contemporary voters who are turned off by politicians neglecting the issues that really matter to them and obsessing about Europe instead.

[Big Ted]

UKIP Man - are you that bizarre chap that prances around in tights with his underpants over the top with a silly helmet and a cape?

http://www.lechladegroup.org.uk/

If you are keep up the good work!

[Valedictoryan]

Wonderful link Big Ted. I think this one confirms it...

[David York]

Daniel (Re Jan 1st 21.55). My concern is that if we do not curb the EC soon it will not matter which party wins a UK General Election because it will have no power!! Voters know about the Health service and Education policy, it is in the news every day. However you have to really make an effort to find out what EC federalists are doing and the public normally find out when their plans have become reality. I feel that the UK should rule itself, be free of excessive regulation and be free to deal with the world outside Europe as an independant state (which is what my father and grandfather fought for in WW1 and WW2). If we retain our sovereignty then we can sort out our domestic problems, but imagine the horrors of an EC chancellor determining our tax rates. (The one thing you could be certain about would be outrageously high rates) In this case we may wish to spend more on health or education, but be unable to do so. Imagine a European defence ministry with a Rapid Reaction Force - what a joke! By the time the EC called all the meetings, which would not come to any agreement about whether to react rapidly (if at all) the war would be lost. My final point is that if we govern ourselves (rather than being governed by the EC) then every four years or so we have the prescious ability to vote and to change what we do not like. How the hell do you get rid of a shedful of unelected bureaucrats and foreign politicians? Notwithstanding the cream of Britain like Mandelson and Kinnock making a very cosy living at the taxpayers expense.

[Don H]

Well said, David, the voice of reason.

As far as "a pathetic one per cent of stolen votes" from Daniel VA, above, I disagree that this is inconsequential.

Look at the UKIP's Euro votes (12 seats in the Euro Parliament) and look at the vote for the R4 Today programme's Christmas Repeal; repealing the 1972 European Communities Act, which took us into the 'Common Market' (what a lie that was) received just under 30% of the vote.

There is a lode to be mined. I simply can not understand why the Cameroons are not mining it.

However, I noticed on the news this morning that Mr C is making a speech calling for food to carry country of origin marks (instead of 'Produced in EEC' or somesuch). Maybe he is starting to listen after all.

According to our local Trading Standards, unless a label is misleading, for instance a product from China with a Union Flag all over it implying it is manufactured here, it does not have to have country of origin on it at all. The argument is that stating where a product comes from discriminates between the countries of Europe and thus leads to a weakening of free trade within Europe. Not something that bothered the French incidentally over British beef.

This little loop hole allows the Italians, for example, to import Chicken from Thailand, chop it up into whatever they chop it up into and call the resulting product, 'Produced in EEC'. Animal welfare here, of course, is far better and thus more expensive, as I know from trying to buy my bacon from British pigs, who are much happier with their lives.

The Trading Standards man whom I spoke to this morning was insistent that our food labelling laws are our own, not Brussels', but he did say that there are directives that come down to be gold-plated by our people and a lot date from 1996 or thereabouts. He said that, all in all it was a bit of a grey area.

So maybe Dave is dipping his toe in the water where there won't be a group of Bolshie MEPs to (not) crack down on. We shall see.

[David York]

Don. 1994 saw the introduction of the Waste Framework Directive. Since then the EC has failed to provide a clear definition of 'waste'. It certainly is not now something which you 'do not want' or 'cannot use'. In fact, many materials which have been sold as products for years are now 'waste' and as such are encumbered with typical Euro paperwork and bureaucracy (and of course the assocated costs) There have been legal challenges ending up at the ECJ (Eurpean Court of Jokers) which has come up with a plethora of differing points and discussions but has singularly failed to provide clarity but has created millions of tonnes per annum more 'waste' than we ever ha db before. Another bonus of being an EU member. Then of course the Environment Agency lawyers have 'gold plated' the regs putting many UK businesses into a position they should never be. When challenged they trot out the 'precautionary principle' (an EU euphamism for ban everything and do nothing) in the name of protrcting human health and the environment. Noble sentiments when properly applied but currently crippling and unjustified in many cases. Examples include aggregates produced from industrial residues, composts and collected glass. In a world being told to produce less waste what the hell is the EC doing???
As can be seen by your example of food labelling and mine here, the EC makes a hash of virtually everything it does. We have plenty of idiots here in the UK to dream up daft schemes, why do we need European ones???
Do you think Dave is up to tackling this kind of nonsense???