Tory MP: London vulnerable to Madrid-style commuter attack

New London MP Bob Neill "has said the British Transport Police would have "no hope" in preventing a Madrid-style terror attack on commuter trains" (ePolitix.com).  Mr Neill accuses the Government of complacency in defending London - echoing criticisms previously made by Tory homeland security spokesman Patrick Mercer.

Mr Neill:

"I know it is not easy with a mass transit system and you can never have absolute security but I do think we need to be looking at more.  The [London] Assembly had a report, drafted by one of my colleagues, Richard Barnes, which pointed out some specifics on how we could up the ante on that. With technology we could do more... Personally I favour an integration between the British Transport Police and the Met because I think that would make it easier for the operation to be more flexible.  We are going to have to be prepared to put some more resources into that.

From my constituency point of view it is not just the Tube, you also have to look at the over-land commuter network because, as you will remember in Madrid, it was exactly that, the sort of trains that come in from constituencies like mine that were the targets.  British Transport Police has only got 300 people to cover the whole of Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hampshire and South London so they have no hope preventing anything like that.  Now we have more gated stations I think it is more possible to have some sort of discreet, light-touch scanning at least with the new technology."

Comments

[TomTom]

This goes without saying. If the Govt was serious they would revive the Civil Defence system created during the Cold War and put in place proper local-level organisation using coordination of volunteers around the Fire Service to provide information points and handle walking wounded.

[Liberalone]

This is the worst sort of scaremongering - of course the Govt couldn't 'prevent' a Madrid style bombing and nor could any other governemnt. Tomtom, your suggestion 'may' help with the aftermath, though I doubt even that. If MrNeill is serious, can he at least tell us how he proposes to pay for his new and untested technology.

[Jack Bains]

TomTom - The Cold War Civil Defence plans were a joke. Let's not hold them up as a good exmaple.

[George Hinton]

Quite clearly yet another scaremongerer, or is someone getting in their retliation first?
Committed suicide bombers will always stand a better than evens chance of success. As we are not a police state, and unlike the Israeli's do not have a standard profile to go on, what are the police and security services to do, randomly stop and search every third, fifth or tenth person everyday at every location? The howls of protest from the civil libertarians would be of a noise polluting level, let alone the screeches from any ethnic minority that thought it was going to be unfairly targeted on a profiling and attitudes basis.
This country has been festooned with CCTV's and speed camera's and traffic camera's, which have had no effect on general crime let alone a deterrence against terrorism. When you're on a one way trip who cares if your image is captured.
The fight against terrorism will be a long one, it will require a mindset change from the ethnic communities, it will probably need a break with the dogma of multiculturism, a demand that immigrant communities adapt and assimilate to British ways, there will be a need for the British ways to be ascendant and for others to accept that as the incomers, depositing their cultural baggage at the borders, and we will need to weed out the intolerance, the radicals, the fundamentalists whose sole role is to foment trouble and strife.
Bob Neill would do well to look at the base causes of the sectarian and tribal divisions in this country and the reasons for 7/7 and start to deal with those, rather than raise the levels of paranoia in our society.

[TomTom]

TomTom - The Cold War Civil Defence plans were a joke. Let's not hold them up as a good exmaple.

The ones you know about maybe - but they were backed up by Gladio

[Sally Roberts]

Liberalone and George Hinton - you may regard this as scaremongering and raising the levels of paranoia - I call it responsible of Bob Neill to raise the level of unpreparedness for what will - sadly - undoubtedly happen sooner or later. His warnings should be heeded before it is too late.

[Tory Loyalist]

Patrick Mercer knows what he's talking about. Neill hasn't a clue. In fact the only praiseworthy thing about this skin-of-the-teeth by-election winner is his genuine interest in opera.

I'm old enough to recall Civil Defence precautions. What was it? In case of a nuclear attack curl up under the staircase and kiss your a***hole goodbye?

Anyway, if this week's papers are to be believed, Londoners will be consigned to Davy Jones's Locker by the time Al Quaeda detonates that long-awaited nuclear warhead.

[The jabberwock]

Although I was somewhat young to recall Civil Defence (born in the early 1960s), from what I can recall the advice was along the lines of:
"When you hear the four-minute warning, put your head firmly between your legs and kiss your a*** goodbye."
which just about says it all. Plus ça change, plus de la mème chose...

[Denis Cooper]

Seems very London-centric to merge the whole of the BRITISH Transport Police with the Met, if that is what he really means. As I recall many of the worst IRA atrocities on the British mainland were perpetrated outside London, and the rest of the country could rightly ask how they would be better protected by making the BTP a branch of the Met. Or is he suggesting that the BTP should be broken up, and its officers absorbed into different forces around the country? If 300 BTP in the counties he mentions are not enough - make better use of them by relieving them of the mountains of paperwork, if necessary recruit more.

[ToMTom]

Although I was somewhat young to recall Civil Defence (born in the early 1960s), from what I can recall the advice was along the lines of:
"When you hear the four-minute warning, put your head firmly between your legs and kiss your a*** goodbye."
which just about says it all. Plus ça change, plus de la mème chose...

Maybe..........but the books I have were issued to the Scientific Civil Defence with details of radiation effects and blast protection............I suppose it would be too much to expect people who put their heads between their legs to understand anyway.

The point was there was a Civil Defence Organisation using technically-trained people.

This country does not have an Office of Emergency Preparedness nor anything like the German Technische Hilfswerk

THW (Technisches Hilfswerk) is the Governmental disaster relief organizationof the Federal Republic of Germany. Its statutory tasks include the provision oftechnical assistance at home and humanitarian aid abroad.

Today, more than 40,000 volunteer technicians, engineers and specialists inother fields, as well as roughly 850 full-time employees, work for the federalTHW organisation. Together, they form the foundation of the qualified technicalassistance provided at home and abroad. The THW has 6,000 vehicles of varioustypes at its disposal.

The diversity of its units reflect THW's range of operations. For example, thereare Technical Groups on the local level which focus on recovery, clearing,electricity supply, water damage/ pumps, management/ communication,bridge-building, infrastructure, water hazards, location, logistics, drinkingwater supply and oil damage and last but not least the special unit SEEBA.

No doubt we shall have to wait until the EU takes charge and organises such things - the British seem to have lost the ability to organise anything nowadays

[Esbonio]

Tory Loyalist is right. Patrick Mercer is always good value when I hear him on the radio. Unlike other MPs he is not evasive but talks straight about what he knows.

[Esbonio]

I remember civil defence overcoats being flogged off in War Surples stores in the 60s/70s. Perhaps we would do better to expand our territorial forces so they could focus on domestic defence and emergencies?

[ToMTom]

Perhaps we would do better to expand our territorial forces so they could focus on domestic defence and emergencies?

No. That is what is destroying the British Army.

Fundamentally an Army is a killing-machine - we are turning it into the Salvation Army. Artillerymen need to focus on gunnery............not wet-nursing.

If we continue to use 95.000 soldiers as jack-of-all-trades they will be as effective as the England cricket team when they meet an opposing army like the Australian cricket team. Britain is too amateurish.

We should build a THW and have a fighting army designed to kill and be a fighting-machine

[ToMTom]

Perhaps we would do better to expand our territorial forces so they could focus on domestic defence and emergencies?

and just where will you recuit 40.000 technicians and engineers who want to be in the British Army ?

[Esbonio]

TomTom

I understand whence you come. But I think you are more likely to achieve somethimg rather than nothing through specialist reserve forces which would not be used for overseas deployments.

When the Tories started cutting the defenc ebudget in the 90s I was aguing for an increase in the reserve element to compensate for the fall in the regular forces. Our stupid politicians (who had stuffed the economy) did a double whammy on regular and reserve; hence our problems today.

[ToMTom]

but why would anyone with a technical background want to join the Army ?

[Esbonio]

TomTom

Plenty of people with all sorts of specialist backgrounds currently serve our reserve forces.

[Ken Stevens]

Some years ago there was a separate Civil Aviation Constabulary which was absorbed into the police services of each area concerned.I find it hard to understand the rationale for a British Transport Police as a separate entity from regional constabularies.

[Opinicus]

The duty of an opposition is to oppose. Nice to see one of them is groping towards the idea.

[ToMTom]

Plenty of people with all sorts of specialist backgrounds currently serve our reserve forces..

Our TA numbers 38.000 so I very much doubt it could must 40.000 engineers and technicians - not everyone wants to be in the Army - lots of people prefer being civilians

[Esbonio]

TomTom

I was suggesting that we increase the size of our reserve forces; I reckon quite a few people would be willing to serve in the reserve forces if the right incentives were in place (including no overseas service (unless perhaps UK under attack)); FWIW I know of unemployed served in the TA SAS; we have millions of economically inanctive as I think you have noted before.

[malcolm]

Don't see the point of Bob Neills' speech nor of this thread quite honestly.Intelligence is our only hope against terrorism.There's not much new under the sun.

[Simon Newman]

esbonio:
"But I think you are more likely to achieve somethimg rather than nothing through specialist reserve forces which would not be used for overseas deployments."

From my readings on "4th generation War" theory & likely future threats, I think there will definitely be a need for a part-time territorial home guard/militia for defense, emergency policing and disaster recovery in local areas. This should absolutely not be a force deployable overseas on whatever adventure the government of the day thinks up; its task should be purely to maintain & restore order and preserve life within its own area.

See:
http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/hammes.htm

[TomTom]

I know of unemployed served in the TA SAS; we have millions of economically inanctive as I think you have noted before.

Who cares about SAS - they know zilch about organising telephone systems, piping water..........the British Army cannot even get boots and ammunition for front-line troops and people who have technical skills and are working for civilian employers are hardly likely to want to join the TA.

Your idea of using the unemployed in place of technically trained civilians is typical of this country. The Germans can put trained personnel into a disaster zone but Britain has to use soldiers.

I didn't see any soldiers after 7 July 2005 going down The Tube - I saw medics from the BMA Headquarters tending wounded and dying in their courtyard - I heard of walking wounded left to wander home alone because police were bewildered.

It took a civilian to erect a makeshift first-aid post. The story of 7/7 is one of British post-disaster incompetence rescued by special efforts of a few civilians with leadership

Telling them they must join the TA if they want to have any role in future disasters is bizarre

[TomTom]

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimbonet/cd_history.html

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimbonet/cd.html

http://www.cybertrn.demon.co.uk/atomic/cdwhy.htm

The simple fact is that the British Army is so small, lacks medics, has insufficient ABC capability, and could not manage a flare-up in N Ireland plus a Firemans' strike simultaneously.

In fact if 7/7 had been done professionally and strikes undertaken in 3 or 4 cities simultaneously the emergency services would have collapsed.

London is the most over-provisioned part of the country in terms of hospitals so the full impact was mitigated - but a 9/11 situation would have brought London to collapse and the NHS too

[Esbonio]

TomTom

Do you have any service experience?

[TomTom]

TomTom

Do you have any service experience?

Me ? No - not in the regular Army.........my family does however ranging from Major-General through tank commanders through to service on Ark Royal to mention those in recent years