Explosive 'Downing Street memo' suggests that abandoning Brown may be only way of saving Labour from defeat

Christmas has come early for David Cameron...

1. Labour's standing is so low that the party's only hope of recovering may be to abandon Mr Brown and 'move to a new generation' by picking a much younger new leader - though it warns of the perils of being 'disloyal' to the 'greatly respected' Chancellor.
2. The public believes the party is riven by 'internal conflicts' and shows a 'lack of grip and competence on key issues' such as Iraq, the NHS and immigration.
3. People who voted Labour at the last Election 'are moving across' to the Conservatives and Labour is floundering 'on every major issue'.

These are the findings of a memo that the Mail on Sunday claims has originated from Downing Street.  It states that "We have lost control of the big issues and are not delivering."  The memo appears certain to set off a new round of Labour infighting.  It describes Gordon Brown as "unpopular" and blames him for fanning the flames of the loans-for-peerages row.

A Labour source has challenged the veracity of the MoS story.  "This is not a Downing Street memo," the source says: "It was not written by any of the Prime Minister's staff and it most certainly does not reflect his views."

11.15am update on 17/12: Reading between the lines of Labour's denial, Iain Dale concludes that it was written by Philip Gould.  The crucial ingredient missing is the date.  If, as is now being suggested, it was written in September, it puts a different gloss on things.  That was before Project Cameron started to splutter a little and was in the immediate aftermath of the acrimony caused by the Brownites' successful ousting of Blair.

Comments

[k young]

what they're really saying is we have to answer the west lothian question in a way that does not look like we're answering the west lothian question.Expect the rest of the Raj to be quietly shoved out too.

[Richard Carey]

The memo appears certain to set off a new round of Labour infighting.

'Tis the season to be jolly, after all!!

who's got the CH popcorn while we watch this one unfold then?...

[John Coles]

The memo is a very clever bit of spin. Labour believe that if they elevate the threat level of Mr. Cameron's Conservatives, Mr. Cameron and his staff will be encouraged and continue with their present "reforms". But, in reality, Labour realise that the Conservative party under Mr. Cameron is haemorrhaging support to UKIP and the BNP and will never form the next government.
So Labour is now free to consider who the next leader will be whilst the Conservative party continues on its path of self-destruction.

[Anne Palmer]

Christmas has come early for David Cameron...You jest of course?
It is astonishing how agitated the denizens of ConservativeHome blog have got over John Redwood’s statement of the obvious that voting UKIP will damage the chance of Cameron’s Tories winning the next election.

The Cameroons on the list (and Mr Redwood) must be extraordinarily naïve if they don’t realise that the reason why so many former Tory voters are planning to vote for UKIP or BNP is precisely TO `”damage the chance of Cameron’s Tories winning the next election”, so many feel let down by him.

Since Cameron took over the Conservative Party on the basis of a promise he immediately broke, trust was destroyed. This promise related to the EU, our relations with which are central to our identity and existence as a nation state. It is alleged that this very subject has been placed under an embargo by Cameron with instructions to MPs that they should not “bang on about it”

It is not merely “Europe” that has enraged long-term Tories. It is Cameron’s touchy-feely politics in general and his jettisoning of core beliefs in such matters as low taxation and excellence in education. Cameron’s instincts and proposals are all neo-Liberal and egalitarian. They do nothing to remove lower-paid employees from dependence on the state but perpetuate the primacy of state benefits and state pensions. This very week Cameron reiterated the astonishing principle that “Our motivation is not simply an arid desire to roll back the frontiers of the state.”, “arid desire???? The belief that in the primacy of the individual was what once defined a Tory.

So many Conservatives reckon that it would be a disaster for both Party and Country if a nominally Conservative government under Cameron were elected. Therefore they will remain Conservative but withhold their votes until a proper Conservative Party is in place to vote for. Many will vote for UKIP whose policies are now excellent but others feel that their defection temporarily to the BNP will have greater electoral impact. Only this week the very same blog reported BNP taking 26% of the vote in Rotherham (just behind Labour) with an Independent coming third. In Epping the BNP took 20% !

So it is futile for the Cameroons on ConservativeHome blog to criticise UKIP which they do in increasingly strident tones. They should examine the mote in their own eye and realise that the Conservative Party under Cameron has moved so far to the left as to lose its core support.

[Richard Carey]

If the quotes from this document are accurate, then reading the Daily Mail report keeps making me happier (and I honestly can't remember the last time I said that!)

Quote:

"Labour no longer has a measurable lead on any major issue,' it states.

We have lost control of the big issues and are not delivering,' the memo states.

Mr Blair's inner circle is in a blind panic over the march of Mr Cameron's Conservatives

Something there to keep up the spirits of any Conservative activist as we work to aid this process of self-destruction!

I think John is being overly pessimistic about the loss of support to minority parties - very little is said about the possiblity that we might be gaining more mainstream support at the same time. I guess your view of this depends on if you think the party's reforms are moving us in a direction you personally like, which I generally do.

If John is so concerned about the minority parties, I'm curious as to ask what his recent experience campaigning for us against them has been?

Personally, I'm keen that routine local campaigning should be strong and skilled enough to keep the minor parties in their boxes, while we concentrate the bulk of our resources on taking seats of our main opponent - Labour.

But back to the memo - now how do you like those apples...?

[malcolm]

Well this is good news.Let's hope the MOS has got it spot on. Labours poll ratings have been fairly steady given the amount of sleaze and incompetence that have engulfed them. I wonder if they will start to fall significantly now?

[Jaz Hayre]

Anne I really think you are overstating practically everything, when a general election comes even the libdems barely get a look-in nevermind UKIP and BNP.

There is very little to suggest at all that Cameron has lost his right-wing. There are afew vocals hihacking conservativehome.com, most of which are too bothered about the EU than the state of the country itself.

People look upon the EU as the cause of all problems, and to me that is an extremist view.

Back to the memo, we've known labour to be in meltdown for a while now...

[Scotty]

I think that the war between No10 & No11 has just erupted again in an explosive week of bad news for this government.
Off topic, just watched an excellent interview between Andrew Neil and IDS on Straight talk. IDS was very good and it is worth watching over the weekend. He made some very interesting observations about letting a new leader develop.

[Richard Carey]

Agreed, Jaz, we need to keep our eye on GE vote shares - and take every opportunity to break down our opposition's campaigning infrastructure by taking local government seats from them in the meantime.

Anne - you "forgot" to give us the other part of the line in DC's speech - "but to roll forward the frontiers of society". This is actually something that unites all wings of the Party. If you don't believe me, you should read the book "There is such a thing as society", with contributions from contemporary social conservatives such as Gary Streeter and John Hayes, making some similar points a couple of years ago.

Looks good in terms of providing a wider goal for us as we move into year 2 of Project DC, doesn't it?

[bee]

this memo was deliberately leaked from the top, and designed to get the Labour voters out and voting - if they're told the Tories will win, they will come out in force and support Labour.

[TomTom]

One day it will dawn on politicians that General Elections in Britain must be won seat by seat and it is more likely they will have to fight seat by seat next time than has been the case for some time.

It does not matter than a leaked Memo tells The Mail what most voters instinctively feel..............why should Downing Street leaking to Fleet Street assessments of how the public feel have any bearing on the voting public when they read the same in The Mail.

If politicians were really local representatives they would not need newspapers to tell them what voters think

[Tory T]

I really hope you lead with this tomorrow (today) too Editor.

What a story!

The ukip/bnp trolls can go boil their heads, this is real politics now for the big boys that actually matter.

It is an ASTOUNDING memo. You can bet that the idea that the Tories lead on "every major issue" and that "we are seen as a shambles" isn't something Philip Gould made up - it will come from internal polling.

All Tory candidates prepare to use quotes from this in your leaflets!

Also note that no official Downing Street person denies this memo - an *unnamed* source denies it. If it's false, let's have an official person deny it. Iain Dale said on News 24 that the author is reportedly Philip Gould, a key Blair adviser.

Dear David and Samantha Cameron, do enjoy the bacon sandwiches this morning, all the papers make very relaxing reading!

[HF]

Just wait for the reaction from the Brownites.

[TomTom]

when a general election comes even the libdems barely get a look-in nevermind UKIP and BNP.

'Normal Backwardisation' is the fetish of politicos who always reference the past as the basis for the future. Things have changed however.

Turnout is far lower and the main three parties get less support from voters than in previous decades. Nothing has happened since 2005 to inspire voters..............nothing.

Delusional political activists seem to ignore how much groundwork must be done to gain any interest from voters who are - not just in Britain - despairing of democratic politics as practised.

All it takes is one classroom assistant from a school in Beeston say to do something outrageous with explosives and the whole party political system will start to melt down. So far politics has gotten off easy over asylum and over Islamic terrorism - but that depends on events................noone has any confidence in politicians or police to protect them from terrorist attack. We live in a highly bureaucratised society and the bureaucracy cannot pre-empt attacks merely issuue soothing complacency afterwards

Last time London was lucky - a BMA Conference; a meeting of Emergency Service Crews, and small scale attack............had the Govt implemented its A&E Closures, Fire Station closures, matters would have been disastrous. This country is one outrage away from violent backlash...........and politicians are skating on very thin ice with voters.

[Sally Roberts]

Bee you may have a point! But if we take this at face value (and it is just possible we could) then it is extremely good news for the Conservatives and tallies with what most of us are finding on the doorsteps which is that people are totally disillusioned with Labour and ready for a change. As far as I am concerned (and despite what some might think I consider myself a mainstream Conservative Party activist over a number of years and not a fanatical "Cameroon"!) we are on the right track and should continue to build on what has been done over the last year. Carry on David!

[Valedictoryan]

Like the Lib-Dems before them, Labour can not withstand David Cameron's pressure.

If we want to be the next party of government, the most important thing the Conservative Party can do now is to be united. Those who can't live with David Cameron's leadership would be BOO.

[Basildon Boy]

Who is going to remember this in 2009 or even next week except a few partisan anoraks.

Labour have had a terrible, awful year. The result of that? They're 1% behind us making them still the winners next time.

Is it Labour who should be worried?

[Tory Realist]

It looks like the public have had enough of Labour and us.

Will that mean record low turn-outs or the rise of the 'others' or both?

[Tory Loyalist]

I see the CCHQ trolls are out in force - all five fingers of them - bigging up this unattrributed and unattributable memo.

If genuine, this document purely reflects the desire of some in-house Blairite to trash Brown.

Am I alone in noting a sudden appearance of fully-primed anonymous "newcomers" to this site, whose main object seems to be to reclaim CH for Cameroon Socialism?

I suspect they/he will soon tire of the game but in the meantime I believe it's time for the grassroots Thatcherite right to coalesce in their opposition to the TRG mafia who have hi-jacked our party.

I will shortly be launching a modest but active bulletin board for real Tories to discuss the fightback against the renegades.

Watch this space.

[malcolm]

Hopefully that will mean you leave this board 'Tory Loyalist'. It does get dull reading the rubbish you spout everyday which is always the same whatever the subject of the thread.

[Yet Another Anon]

But, in reality, Labour realise that the Conservative party under Mr. Cameron is haemorrhaging support to UKIP and the BNP and will never form the next government.
The Conservative Party almost certainly form the next government in about 18 years I think, the BNP mostly is taking chav support off Labour, I have no idea who the Popular Alliance Party voters would otherwise vote for (Popular Alliance who broke away from Veritas and seem largely to have superceded them and do have some more distinctive policies from UKIP such as explicitly backing restoration of Capital Punishment), except for UKIP these are parties that at General Elections have failed to break through the 1% of the vote barrier unlike UKIP.

Labour support has been not much down on where it was in the second half of the last parliament, the Conservatives are doing better than they had been doing and will have some kind of advance at the next General Election unless the core vote crumbles or there are defections of MP's to UKIP.

The key to a Conservative revival is a return to support for Capital Punishment, favouring withdrawal from the EU, but doing it in a way that reflects Socially Conservative Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs as well. I don't believe that David Cameron will ever be Prime Minister and Gordon Brown may well end up being more remembered as the most successful Labour leader than Tony Blair was and will hold Labour together, after he goes no doubt it will be Ed Balls, David Milliband or Caroline Flint perhaps. I still think Priti Patel is the likely successor to David Cameron. After Gordon Brown goes there will be a huge bustup between a more SDP element and the bits that get referred to as Old Labour and it will end with Labour languishing in opposition for decades under the control of the same sorts of people who backed Tony Benn for the Deputy Leadership in 1981, it could even mean the end of the Labour Party which could breakup into a number of smaller parties.

[Jack Stone]

Its astonishing that this great news for the party is instantly talked down by so many on this site.
My message to those Cameron and Conservative opponents is you may not like it but the party is heading for victory and you and your arguments are heading for the wilderness.

[TomTom]

the BNP mostly is taking chav support off Labour,

How can anyone write such drivel and expect to be taken seriously ? It shows a complete ignorance of the facts on the ground in favour of the kind of gut prejudice that makes the Conservative Party a Southeast Regional Grouping rather than a national political party.

[Yet Another Anon]

It shows a complete ignorance of the facts on the ground in favour of the kind of gut prejudice
Barking, Burnley, Stoke-on-Trent, Keighley, Oldham, Tower Hamlets - all strongly Labour in the past, where is it that the Conservatives are actually under threat from the BNP as such, if anything the BNP taking Labour votes is more likely to help other parties.

[EML]

Hardly anyone will remember this memo come next month, but it's the cumulative effect of stunts such as this that will make the difference.

[Tory Loyalist]

Well that's where you're wrong "Jack Stone" because the unlikely event of a victory by Cameron - hardly heralded by the latest poll - would mark the first day of phase two of Real Tory fightback to put a Conservative back in charge of our party.

Personally I don't think we are going to have to move beyond Phase 1, but we have to be ready for all eventualities. Who knows? Maybe the entire cabinet will be blown up by Al Quaeda the day before the general election.

As you know well, "Jack Stone" the only area of doubt most observers entertain concerning yourself is which party you really support, with much of the smart money going on UKIP.

But for the sake of argument I'll buy your story.

You recently said that "Tories" like you could only be happy under a Cameron-style leadership, Hague, IDS and Howard being so many far-right fruitcakes.

Does that mean you only claim to have joined the party last year?

So which party do you claim to have supported previously.

[Sean Fear]

"Barking, Burnley, Stoke-on-Trent, Keighley, Oldham, Tower Hamlets - all strongly Labour in the past, where is it that the Conservatives are actually under threat from the BNP as such, if anything the BNP taking Labour votes is more likely to help other parties."

The BNP pick up both Labour and Conservative votes - but do seem to be strongest in historically Labour areas. Where they score is by hoovering up all the anti-Labour (once Conservative) voters in those areas, plus a chunk of the Labour vote that would rather die than vote Conservative.

The archetypal BNP ward is mainly white, skilled/semi-skilled working class, historically Labour but with quite a large Conservative minority vote.

Recent by-elections in Redbridge, Southend, and Epping suggest, however, that they are beginning to gather support in more middle class (and usually Conservative) areas.

[Tory Loyalist]

Hardly anyone will remember this memo come next month, but it's the cumulative effect of stunts such as this that will make the difference.
______________________________________________________________

Hardly anyone will remember this memo by the middle of the week but it's the cumulative effect of stunts such as "Hug a Hoodie" that will make the difference.

[Yet Another Anon]

Where they score is by hoovering up all the anti-Labour (once Conservative) voters in those areas, plus a chunk of the Labour vote that would rather die than vote Conservative.
They generally surge in Local Elections and fall back in EU and General Elections, a lot of their vote is a protest vote, most of the areas where they have got stronger votes were areas where the Conservative vote had already collapsed almost totally, there is the odd exception of course, but in the 1990's at a time when the votes of parties that essentially looked more to the legacy of Oswald Moseley were if anything at an all time low, in most of the areas that the BNP have since done better the Conservative vote had already hit rock bottom. There is no doubt in the past that the National Front in the past perhaps impacted more on the Conservative vote than that of other parties but of course the BNP appeal to many Labour\ex-Labour and no doubt ex-Communist voters is their favourability towards heavy state involvement in the economy.

[Eldon]

A major problem for the BNP is that they can't attract the right calibre of candidates.
It's not because there are no well-heeled and educated hard right wingers (listen at the bar of the the golf club or indeed the Conservative club this lunchtime) but the violent threats of the left, the danger of damage to business, promotion etc militate against many BNP sympathisers taking an active role.
Of course there are other unattractive aspects to the BNP such as engrained anti-semitism which may not be immediately apparent.
We need these right-wing traditionalists back in the Tory Party where they belong, fighting shoulder to shoulder against the liberals

[Anne Palmer]

There are a couple more years to go yet and anything can happen. If Cameron continues the way he is now, the so called minority Parties will have to find bigger Headquarters. To Jaz Hayre, please keep the blinkers on, pretend change is not happening, it suits me fine.

[Cardinal Pirelli]

Hard right supporters are not attracted to the BNP because they are a quasi-socialist/fascist party, the support they get is similarly from the left. Yes, there are some on the right who might switch to them but they are even more misguided than those who think that voting UKIP is of any use whatsoever (as a quick quiz, I noticed three UKIP trolls on this thread, see if you can spot them).

[Mali Know-Bull]

Well any comments from 'Tory Realist' should be taken with a whole cellar full of salt, given the likelihood of being a sockpuppet for a UKIP troll, and not just any old UKIP troll either, but one who effectively admitted over on his own site (although the comment where he did so had mysteriously disappeared by this morning - perhaps he forgot to pay the obligatory £2.50 comment fee first?) to being 'Tory Realist'.

[TomTom]

all strongly Labour in the past, where is it that the Conservatives are actually under threat from the BNP

Keighley was Conservative - I believe it was Gary Waller MP when Thatcher was PM..........it also manages to return Bradford Council Leader Kris Hopkins who is PPC for Keighley

In the Local elections the BNP vote at 27.5% cost the Conservatives seats

[TomTom]

Go look ward by Ward

http://www.bradford.gov.uk/asp/election06/overall.asp

[Anon]

Editor, apologies for going slightly off thread.
Mali Know-Bull, I too saw the back peddling it was a "cough" cunning plan to prove that I could not be banned comment too.

[Editor]

OK folks. I'm watching a couple of people closely now. Let's keep on subject from now on please...

[Dick Wishart]

Does anyone know just how many tories are supposedly defecting to UKIP & BNP, are there any figures or is this just the UKIP bloggers dreaming.
I think its the latter.

[Sean Fear]

There's no doubt at all that in Keighley in 2005, the BNP took more votes from the Conservatives than from Labour. It was one of only a handful of marginal seats which showed a swing from Conservative to Labour. Dewsbury, OTOH, was completely the opposite.

In common with all minor parties, the BNP sees its vote share fall at general elections, compared to local. But in common with the Greens, its support is on the rise, and probably rising quite rapidly. In the local elections of May 2000, 3,000 people voted BNP. This year, 238,000 people did.

[David Sergeant]

" so many former Tory voters are planning to vote for UKIP or BNP is precisely TO `”damage the chance of Cameron’s Tories winning the next election”"

Amist one of the few mature blogs from a UKIP supporter is the basic rationale and policy of UKIP; to send pro EU Labour and Lib/Dem MPs to Westminster to finally lock us in to thr EU forever. Editor could you put this in a headline or something. Vote EU vote UKIP! (UKIP have "excelent" policies, come on Anne Palmer you're teasing us.)

One thing about UKIPers and tax cutters is they go on about being loyal Thatcherites. Maggie took us further into Europe than John Major, increased taxes if necessary and spent huge amounts on welfare and public services (in the case of the latter we never tell anybody resulting in us losing millions of votes.) I suspect that a lot people calling themselves "Thatcherites" on this site are Labour or Lib/Dems who take anything Cameron says, twist it, then claim the are joining UKIP. Either that or they are inadequate little people who are happy to sell the country down just to have a tantrum.

[Graham D'Amiral]

This story just adds to the sense of chaos and panic that has engulfed labour in recent times. Of course labour want to discredit the story after all the leaked memo says the government are massivly unpopular and however bad things are they'll be even worse when Brown takes over. Spinning this story might even have been beyond Alastair Campbell at his peak.

From our point of view all we need to read in to it is labour are worried, so we must be doing something right.

[Valedictoryan]

The BBC considers "Blair visits UK troops in Basra" to be a bigger story than this. So no change there then.

[Yet Another Anon]

This year, 238,000 people didNot actually that many more votes than they got in the General Election, just over 45,000 votes difference, if there is a high turnout in Local Elections among those who vote BNP in General Elections, and they pick up a protest vote then next General Election they could well be back to where they were in 2005 at only around 200,000 votes - they still are doing less well nationally than the NF were doing in the 1970's, it is important to remember that on just over a 61% turnout in the 2005 General Election they still only managed to get 0.7% of the vote. Even if they get 238,000 votes that still wouldn't take them to 1% of the vote and if turnout were to rise could even see them making no appreciable progress. Except in a very small number of mainly marginal seats they are an irrelevance in a General Election, UKIP in total increased their vote last time by more votes than the BNP got in total. For all the talk of them being on the verge of a breakthrough they are still only the 6th largest national party (assuming they can be considered a national party as they have virtually no presence in large swathes of the country).

Certainly there is widespread support for Capital Punishment and stiffer sentencing generally, more money on police and more discipline in society, but other BNP policies really don't stand up well under scrutiny and most of their candidates are jokes, as a party they are hopeless and would bankrupt the country probably if their policies were ever put into effect as well as probably causing the disorder they claim to be trying to stop.

From our point of view all we need to read in to it is labour are worried, so we must be doing something right.
Someone wrote the memo, who they were or whether they were worried or not or whether they were attempting some kind of Machiavellian manipulation is unknown, all this is is a memo - with no information along with it, maybe the person writing it doesn't like Gordon Brown, it's pointless reacting to every bit of news as if it must be true - if the memo had said that Labour was sweeping to a bigger victory it's still only a bit of paper with some type on it that no one can put a name to, no one even seems to know when it was written.

[Tory T]

Editor,

Your memory is playing you false re: September, when you say "before the Cameron project had started to falter"

Cameron's current ICM lead: 8%. ICM is the single pollster most rated by Mike Smithson, poll expert at political betting

In fact, September was a bad month for Cameron in the major polls.

Here they are, most recent first:

Con 36 Lab 36 – You Gov
ICM con 36 Lab 32
Icm con 37 lab 33
You gov Con 38 Lab 31
Mori Lab 36 Con 35

So a month which started with MORI showing a Labour lead, and ended with YouGov showing the parties level pegging, and never had ICM above a 4 point lead.

A bad month for public polling for Cameron's Conservatives, despite the headlines.

Yet Philip Gould was writing this memo. It shows to my mind what Labour's internal polls were showing them at the time. The picture is far worse for them and better for us than the public picture.

Sometimes I fear perception colours fact on ConHome. EG the post just now suggesting we were not doing well in by-elections, when the analysis referred to (Sean Fear's) actually did say we were doing well with a 9% lead - over the LibDems, and Labour nowhere on 24%. Or the including of Communicate Research to drag your poll of polls down. CR does not weight and should be excluded. The last polls show the party with a 5%, 8%, and 1% lead respectively.

[Anne Palmer]

Ah David Sergiant, didn't we indeed have a lovely time when the Tory's were in power-for such a long time too-they did indeed take us further into the European Union and our John , now SIR John if you please, made us all EU citizens by ratifying the Maastricht Treaty. I think I was the first person to renounce that EU Citizenship that was thrust upon me. That is of course, if it is possible to renounce a "concept" of something. Cameroon has of course decided that we need to remain in the EU,(he must like to go down with the sinking ship) and I have noticed (perhaps you have not?) that no party can be any worse that those we have tried for the last thirty-five years. Not one. In fact, the only parties that will deliver us from the chains that bind us into the EU, are UKIP and the BNP.
As you know, the EU is on its final journey, the train is at last pulling into the station,the fog is clearing but the sign does not read as its passengers expected, for it is the wrong station and it is not the destination the passengers wanted to arrive at. You see, no one told the passengers where the train was heading, have you any idea what will happen next?

[Martin Cole]

TomTom @ 0840 puts his finger on things
======
"All it takes is one classroom assistant from a school in Beeston say to do something outrageous with explosives and the whole party political system will start to melt down. So far politics has gotten off easy over asylum and over Islamic terrorism - but that depends on events................noone has any confidence in politicians or police to protect them from terrorist attack. We live in a highly bureaucratised society and the bureaucracy cannot pre-empt attacks merely issuue soothing complacency afterwards"
=======

The murders of five young female drug addicts whose cravings led them to sell themselves could also be a step in the direction pointed out above.

The true decadence in British society is almost certainly the result of our two party political system. These two parties have to be recognised the enemies of decency and the public.

This is becoming plainer but I am not sure that the existing minor parties can provide an electoral solution.

(The BBC reporter travelling with Blair has stated on air that the memo dates from October)

[Tory T]

Anne Palmer

"Many will vote for UKIP whose policies are now excellent but others feel that their defection temporarily to the BNP will have greater electoral impact. Only this week the very same blog reported BNP taking 26% of the vote in Rotherham (just behind Labour) with an Independent coming third. In Epping the BNP took 20% !"

"Not one. In fact, the only parties that will deliver us from the chains that bind us into the EU, are UKIP and the BNP."

Is it not enough that fringe ukip supporters suck out all the air without ConservativeHome getting swamped by BNP facist sympathisers as well?

[Tory T]

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2006/12/tory_members_ar.html#comment-26653304

No less than seven BNP supporters are clogging up the end of this thread. Facism and racism is totally unacceptable. I hope it doesn't turn into "UKIP/BNP home" but so many commenters are coming here from those parties now that real Conservatives are getting drowned out

[Jack Stone]

Tory Loyalist. I have always been a Conservative supporter and member. Unlike you I am a loyalist and don`t just support the party only when my particular brand of Conservatism is running the party.
I also think its beyond belief that someone posts that we need ex-members of the party who have defected to the BNP back in the party. I thnk not!
Cameron will lead the party back to power not only because he as the right strategdy and beliefs but also because he as by this sites own admission the vast majority of the party supporting him.

[Jorgen]

"don`t just support the party only when my particular brand of Conservatism is running the party."

And what is that kind of Conservatism called, Jack Stone? Conservative socialism?

[matt wright]

John Coles posted the following: "The memo is a very clever bit of spin. Labour believe that if they elevate the threat level of Mr. Cameron's Conservatives, Mr. Cameron and his staff will be encouraged .... Mr. Cameron is haemorrhaging support to UKIP and the BNP and will never form the next government".

Oh dear this verges on conspiracy theory. There is no evidence at all that support is going to UKIP and the BNP. Quite the opposite.

Matt

[Scotty]

"Oh dear this verges on conspiracy theory. There is no evidence at all that support is going to UKIP and the BNP. Quite the opposite."
Matt, it is more wishful thinking than conspiracy especially when both the conservatives and David Cameron's poll ratings have improved considerable over the last year.

[Anne Palmer]

To Tory T, so sorry I rattled your cage. However, I think you should know that I have always voted Conservative, so, I am as guilty as the next for the fix this Country now finds itself in. I have never been in a Political Party and never likely to be in one either. I have very recently however, looked at the BNP site, (To see if what people are saying of the BNP is true), and d'you know what, all that it states on their site is the same as I want for this Country. There is news on that site that I know is true yet I have never seen it in the popular press.
I also find it strange that whenever I send certain true facts to our Daily Papers not one word is printed of mine not printed from its direct source. Do you not find that strange? Particularly as we live (As long as we remain healthy that is) under a regime that wants to be seen as 'open' and 'transparent'.

[Sean Fear]

Yet Another Anon,

The BNP are polling *far* better than the NF ever did in the seventies. The NF won about 2 or 3 council seats at most. The BNP have 50. They got 45,000 more votes in 2006 than 2005, despite the fact turnout in local elections is much lower, and several constituencies they contested in 2005 didn't have local elections in 2006.

Currently, they're averaging 17% in local by-elections, compared to 9% for the Green Party.

[Ted]

Did a memo go out to BNP supporters to troll this site this weekend? After DC's attack on UKIPs Party leadership we suffered a similar UKIP troll surge (unfortunately not yet entirely over).

[Scotty]

"Did a memo go out to BNP supporters to troll this site this weekend? After DC's attack on UKIPs Party leadership we suffered a similar UKIP troll surge (unfortunately not yet entirely over)."
Well said Ted, I was beginning to think that I had wandered into a BNP/UKIP troll festival today.

[Anne Palmer]

Get used to it, if Mr Cameron carries on as he is doing, UKIP or BNP might be your nexrt Government. Now there's a thought!

[HF]

Anne Palmer said "I have very recently however, looked at the BNP site... and d'you know what, all that it states on their site is the same as I want for this Country."

OK Anne, their 2005 manifesto policies included.

"A graduated land-tax related to the size of holdings and the quality of land involved, incentives to new young farmers, and the extensive use of National Service labour will all be employed to transform the south and east of England in particular."
"The BNP supports the gradual assumption of worker ownership through their pension funds."
"No appeals on decisions of the Courts on matters of national security will be allowed."

Anne, I can categorically state that in view of the above BNP policies, you are on the wrong site and need to move over to the BNP, where I am sure you will find a more appropriate party. Goodbye.

[John Irvine]

Not all the BNP's views are incorrect. I'm strongly opposed to their anti-Jewish policies but what they say about stopping immigration is probably in line with what most Tories think.

The wife of our association vice-chairman has recently resigned from the Tories and joined the BNP.

[Tory T]

Lovely. I find it very edifying how recently arrived ukip trolls are also declaring their partiality to the bnp. See John and Anne.

I really hope this site doesn't get overrun with BNP lice and I agree with HF, Ted and Scotty

[TomTom]

Tory T is way out of touch. The electroral marketplace is where you must compete for votes. Conservative Subscribers do not provide enough votes - what Anne stated is simply what the advertising for BNP proclaims and what options are before voters who choose to vote.

Your attitude is rather snooty as if Conservatives are guaranteed votes no matter how dire voters think they are..............presumably just enough guaranteed votes to seat 198 MPs.

If you were more market-oriented you might see the competition eating away at your market share; Blair took big chunks of Conservative real-estate and got the Consrvatives to become a Blairite Me-Too Party; well there is no reason for voters to follow suit. If Anne does market research that is better than Tory T who acts like a British manager with his head in the sand who suddenly wonders how Koreans, and Taiwanese and Chinese ate his lunch

[Tory T]

TomTom,

Introducing a gentle note of reality into the proceedings, the last by-election that ukip fought, and threw everything at, was in Horsham.

They polled a total of 40 votes.

What about parliamentary by-elections? Didn't their "leader" Nigel Farage stand in Bromley and Chiselhurst, where the Tory vote shrank so much after the rejection of the A list and a campaign where Cameron's name and image were totally excised? Why, yes he did. And how much did ukip spend on that by-election? More than a hundred thousand pounds.

Result?

A pathetic disaster, with votes going not to the rightwing fringe parties but to the LibDems.

Ukip are a totally busted flush. In actual elections they are crashing and burning. The BNP are succeeding far better (Horsham) but are still typically doing well in Labour areas.

[Tory T]

ukip are so utterly useless that their leader Farage recently told voters that if they didn't like Kent County Council they could "vote them out next May".

There are no county council elections in Kent next May.

http://www.kentnews.co.uk/kent-news/Ukip-leader-slams-%C2%A3300k-annual-cost-of-Brussels-office-newsinkent2222.aspx

"Mr Farage, who lives in Bromley, added: "Kent council taxpayers have an opportunity to end this profligacy by voting Kent county councillors out of office in May."

But Cllr King said: "There aren't any county elections next May so people can't vote the county council out. If he expects to be seen as the leader of a credible party he needs to get his facts right."

Moron!

[Tory Loyalist]

I really hope this site doesn't get overrun with BNP lice and I agree with HF, Ted and Scotty
__________________________________________________________________

Actually, it's currently more likely to get overrun by CCHQ trolls and sockpuppets.of which "Tory T" and "Scotty", presumably the same poster, are prime examples.

The Tory attitude to immigration was officially summed up in the line "Are you thinking what we're thinking? It's not racist..."

Cameron was part of the team that took responsibility for that mood music and if the overwhelmingly anti-immigration Tory grassroots see Cameron tacking to the left on immigration some of them will invariably vote BNP.

The most recent official party campaign reflected the fact that if the Tory Party had a motto it would be "I'm not racist but..."

Moving from the sublime to the ridiculous
(or vice versa), the Mail's "explosive" scoop doesn't seem to have survived 24 hours, but unlike CCHQ staff I don't have access to all the morning papers.

Perhaps Tory T/Scotty will advise?

[ToMTom]

overrun with BNP lice

This kind of language is inappropriate.......it is the kind of language the Nazis used equating people with vermin. It really has no place in proper debate and reflects badly on those who write this way

[Tory Loyalist]

Actually TomTom "Tory" T's disgusting language did instantly remind me of that notorious scene in the Nazi propaganda film 'Der ewige Jude' in which a group of Jewish people dissolve into a shot of rats in a gutter.

Like his "Big Lie" mentor Goebbels, "Tory" T seeks to dehumanise his enemies. It's an evil, vicious, tactic which reminds us of the answer to another question which raised itself in Germany after the war.

Q - What happened to the Nazis?
A- They're all Liberals now.

Seems that the situation hasn't changed.

[Editor]

I'm closing this thread.