How stupid can you get? As stupid as UKIP

John Redwood has a blog.  One of his first posts takes on UKIP.  Here's a key extract:

"The last three General Elections have shown that neither the Referendum Party nor UKIP can win a single Westminster seat, however strongly and fiercely they put their case for disengagement or withdrawal from the European Union.  They have also shown that by putting some of their better candidates and strongest efforts into opposing Eurosceptic Conservatives in seats the Conservatives can win, they may give us  more federalist MPs by tipping the balance in favour of the pro-EU Liberal Democrat or Labour candidate.  How stupid can you get?"

Comments

[E L Marberry]

Not as stupid as those Conservatives who backed Redwood's treachery in 1995.

[matt wright]

Redwood's comments hit the nail on the head,

Matt

[Esbonio]

I thought it was the Conservatives who got themselves labelled the "nasty party" which was pretty dumb and perhaps why others have called them the "stupid party". FWIW, I prefer the expression "Tory" party; but then I preferred John Redwood in a suit.

[Richard Weatherill]

I have a lot of time for John Redwood. In fact, it was through his Conservative 2000 Foundation that I first joined the Party.

The trouble is that he's not seeing the situation through UKIP eyes. In their view, the three main parties are all as bad as each other when it comes to Europe.

In fact, UKIP would no doubt say that the Conservatives are in some sense the worst of the lot because (in general) they pretend to have Eurosceptic credentials but, historically, have never put them into action. I suspect they view individual Eurosceptic Conservatives (such as those who have signed up to BOO) with even more disdain because they can't understand why such people don't go the whole hog and join UKIP, rather than remaining with a party which (in UKIP's eyes) is guilty of mass deceit.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for UKIP, but rather to explain why the kind of argument advanced by John doesn't carry much weight with them. Of course, another problem with his argument is that it's grist to the proportional representation mill ...

[Prenitz]

Get ready for some ranting from the usual UKIP trolls. Of course, Redwood is quite right, UKIP are the federast's friend - keeping out Eurospectic Conservatives, even if they agree with withdrawl from the EU, and letting in Pro-Eu Labour and Lib Dems. There is nothing more ridiculous than the sight of UKIP candidates standing in borough council elections with no policies other than withdrawl from the EU, and no idea how being a borough councillor could further this!

[Christina]

" I suspect they view individual Eurosceptic Conservatives (such as those who have signed up to BOO) with even more disdain because they can't understand why such people don't go the whole hog and join UKIP, rather than remaining with a party which (in UKIP's eyes) is guilty of mass deceit."

This is wrong, Richard, UKIP will not stand against any BOO MPs or MEPs from ANY Party. UKIP are co-operating with BOO.

This does not apply to Tory candidates who are not presently MPs or MEPs because we know that some say one thing (or sign something) just to get elected even if they don't believe in it. EUphiles pretending to be EUskeptics when interviewed, comes to mind.

[Andrew Woodman]

UKIP would have a lot more credibilty if they focused on defeating Europhile candidates like Macshane (who tried to question out EPP policy at PMQ's), and try and send a signal out that way, rather than stand against known Eurosceptics.

[Esbonio]

Prenitz has a point.

UKIP's problem, depsite it having a variety of policies which should appeal to a lot of Conservatives, is that it positioned itself as a single issue party and is currently stuck with that positioning. The latter is clearly to the Conservatives' advantage. Were UKIP to change the positioning and stress their other policies (whilst not neglecting the Conservatives' disastrous record on Europe) I think it would be a calamity for the Cameroon Project and the Conservative Party as a whole.

[michael mcgough]

How stupid can you get?

This sure beats cranks,gadflies,fruitcases loonies and closet racists as a terms of abuse.

[Mark Wadsworth]

I am a great admirer of John Redwood re deregulation, tax cutting and EU-scepticism, but putting the boot on the other foot, it is not like John Redwood has made a great job of overturning the Conservative pro-EU stance in the last decade or two, is it? Maybe the task is impossible.

[Esbonio]

Watch it Mark Wadsworth or you may be labelled a troll!

[HF]

On the doorstep when I come across a UKIP Member, they are glad that the Lib Dems are winning elections and we have a Labour Govt! It is like a ex-lover who is only happy when you are unhappy. They have no other purpose in life. UKIPs Leaders behave like sad jilted people.

The fact that the Lib Dems are the most Euro friendly party of all, is to them a minor matter as they believe that their main goal is to defeat our party, not Europe. Since the Conservative party has survived 3 of these elections it is of course a stupid and futile effort.

The UKIP voters (not members) are less focused on our defeat. They want to register a protest against Europe and some want a return to an England that never was.

John Redwood speaks the truth and a sad but undeniable fact is that when the Conservative party was most obsessed with Europe it achieved its lowest tally of seats. UKIP actually grew at that time and increased its hate for us even when we kept spouting anti-European statements. If UKIP was smart it would have sorted out a merger with the then Conservatives to bring about a realignment of the right. It chose instead to carry on in opposition. In the past couple of years UKIP has fallen back to about 1/3 of its strength and is never going to win power. At best all it can cling to is the hope that it can keep the most Euosceptic of the 3 parties (us) out of power and that is why it is a stupid party.

Wanting to kill the Conservative party rather than roll back the European experiment is plain daft, or as John says stupid.

We dont read trolls on here from Labour or LD, they are always from UKIP. These activists are obsessed with us. On their websites there are many more Conservative threads than the other parties combined.

[Tam Large]

Funny how the Party is suddenly turning its guns towards the supposedly "irrelevant" UKIP, just as UKIP are taking over true Conservative policies as the Conservatives drop them, and are thus now according better with the grass-roots than Dave Bla-meron. Not only this rant from John Redwood (why argue a point properly when abuse like "stupid" is easier...); but the 5 page UKIP Briefing Note which is currently being circulated to key Conservative Members. This shows the existence of a party with real conservative beliefs and policies is hitting the mark and rattling the Blue-Labour Party.

[Richard]

I'm no fan of the EU but I also find UKIP's behaviour destructive. They're not going to win an election. Ever. In fact, bearing in mind the importance of race and immigration at the moment I'd say the BNP have more of a chance of posing a threat.

I agree with most, if not all of UKIP's policies, but the fact is that they come across as old-fashioned Tories obsessed with the EU. Indeed, they recently admitted that they were the true "Thatcherite" alternative to Cameron thus undermining any potential Eurosceptic Lib Dem or Labour support.

While a lot of right-wing positions are undoubtedly popular (and I've suggested Cameron should stick to the Right on crime, immigration and Europe), UKIP nevertheless looks to many people like a home for authoritarian Colonel Blimps, no matter how much they try to re-position themselves as a party of the "libertarian right". Essentially it's an image problem rather than a policy problem. That might be an unfair characterisation and I for one do not approve of mocking "elderly curmudgeons" (who are often more right than they're given credit for) but in this day and age it's just not good PR thanks to the effects of years of satire and cultural changes over the decade.

At best they might be able to grow to about 15% of the vote but this would only be at the expense of the Tories and to the benefit of Europhile parties.

[Tory T]

I know that I am rattled by the mighty 40 votes UKIP gathered in Horsham the other day.

HF's post is a good one. UKIPers are delighted to be putting a Labour or LibDem Europhile into a seat. What they really are is an "anti-Tory" party and a pro-EU one.

Over and over on UKIP blogs you see acknowledgements that they have no hope of winning but they can deny some Eurosceptic Tory a seat. They are perfectly happy to get EU loving LibLab MPs elected because they are obsessed with the Tories.

The fringe vote is mostly going BNP these days, certainly that was the case in Horsham.

[Jens Winton]

It never ceases to amaze me that childish abuse of us is the stock in trade for those that disagree with UKIP.

I am not in the slightest bit worked up about the name calling but wouldn't it have been better to point to what `wrongs' we have committed instead?

We are not a single-issue party: Our 2005 manifesto ought to have put that to bed. This year, we have introduced new policies on education and taxation at a time when the Conservatives decline to announce any new policy.

The man that said he wants to kill the Tory party - RKS - has long gone, and in a manner that defies other party leader successions, we have made a transition to a new leader without too much fuss. The party will always be bigger than the man.

As Chairman of UKIP Lewisham, I point to objectives that are both relevant and non-EU specific to the borough (please visit www.ukiplewisham.com), and on the national level, I always say to people who ask why support UKIP, the following:

We want to bring back full democracy to this country so that all British laws are passed by British politicians in a British Parliament.

If there is a BOO MP, that's great. It would be nice if they came over but you can't win them all. Everyone else is fair game. And no amount of talk about us `spoiling' it for the Conservatives will make people like me lose a minute's sleep.

And when I get called a racist and fool, well...I just sleep even better knowing I'm hurting someone more than they are me!

[TomTom]

Interesting idea Andrew Woodman, tho' I suspect Conservative or UKIP - neither is relevant in Rotherham and MacShane has nothing to fear from either - his problems will come with BNP

[Jack Stone]

All UKIP are is BNP Lite. The sooner more people realise that the better.

[Esbonio]

HF says "We dont read trolls on here from Labour or LD". I am not sure I agree about that. Quite a few of the posters here sound as if they would be perfectly happy in the LibDem or Labour parties. But the again the same might have been in the past about some seeking to be parliamentary candidates.

[malcolm]

Delighted that John Redwood is making these points.What he says is unarguable and I notice that Jens Winton doesn't even try.

[Nicholas Bennett]

Tory T puts there finger on a matter which is sneaking under the radar (although Michael Brown referred to it yesterday in an Independent article) and that is the rise of the 'other' vote.

BNP got nearly 20% of the vote in a council by-election in Epping Forest last night following their 13% at Horsham recently. Immigration is becoming a very serious issue beyond that section of the electorate which has been concerned for sometime. Whereas we suffered through a tough immigration policy at the Romsey by-election some years ago as not being 'quite nice' about the topic, voters I talk to in relatively affulent areas are now beginning to share the same views as many voters in Labour inner city seats. The sheer scale of the numbers of people coming into the UK and the 'white flight' out of the country is one of those issues which ordinary people talk about but which is largely ignored by the media and main political parties. Hazel Blairs recently warned the Labour Party of the electoral damage it was causingthem in some of their heartland seats.

[Richard]

"We are not a single-issue party: Our 2005 manifesto ought to have put that to bed. This year, we have introduced new policies on education and taxation at a time when the Conservatives decline to announce any new policy."

The problem though is that UKIP is still seen as a single-issue party. Its very name hints at it.

"All UKIP are is BNP Lite."

Evidence?

[malcolm]

Jack,I can't usually be bothered to respond to your risible posts but this one is particularly half witted and also untrue.
I suggest you do some studying regarding the two parties before posting again.
The BNP though they are a racist party have generally left wing economic views and their manifesto seems to want Britain to go back to a simpler pre globalisation existance. None of these things are true of UKIP at all.

[RedSam]

>"All UKIP are is BNP Lite."

>>Evidence?

Nigel Farage and his previous comments regarding voters of a non-white group would be a good start.

[Esbonio]

Richard's inconsistent post at 17.49 pretty much sums up the utter hypocrisy over UKIP.

Whilst he agrees "with most, if not all of UKIP's policies," he will not support them because "Essentially it's an image problem".

[Jens Winton]

Esbonio,

This is what Mr. Redwood says:

"The last three General Elections have shown that neither the Referendum Party nor UKIP can win a single Westminster seat, however strongly and fiercely they put their case for disengagement or withdrawal from the European Union. They have also shown that by putting some of their better candidates and strongest efforts into opposing Eurosceptic Conservatives in seats the Conservatives can win, they may give us more federalist MPs by tipping the balance in favour of the pro-EU Liberal Democrat or Labour candidate. How stupid can you get?"

The last three general elections have taken place in the past thirteen years of UKIP's existence. Even if the Lib-Dems can call on legacies dating back to David Lloyd George without open fear of heckling. We however, have to contend with continuous barracking from the likes of Redwood who are getting in the way of his failing attempt to steer the Conservatives to pulling out of the EU.
I cannot think of any young party that has this to contend with, alongside a hostile press that seeks to suppress a lot of what goes on in the EU.

The hostility comes in different ways other than ignoring us. We get labelled racist and xenophobic but what do expect when the label `Euro-sceptic' is bandied about rather than `EU-sceptic'? We're not anti-Europe but why should the media bother to clear that up?

The past is no guarantee of future performance. Otherwise, Governments would never change. And there are many examples where a party who is pretty much the same kind an election ago, becomes more electorally attractive as times and economies change. So I'll let Mr. Redwood continue to look at the past. Me? I'm looking at the future.

Mr. Redwood's argument is also only sustainable if you subscribe to a view that has UKIP seeing itself only as some kind of whipping boy that EU-sceptic MPs step on to get elected. Our support of the BOO campaign is sound: We will not challenge MPs that have signed up but why should we deny people the chance to vote for us if the MP fails to be BOO-certified or a CANDIDATE will say he's BOO just to get rid of us?

I think the delusion spoken about has more to do with the anger that we are picking up Conservative support that used to be at the heart of the party and are now being told to push off by Cameron.

Sticks and stones...

[Daniel VA]

Not for the first time I disagree with Deadwood.

UKIP are little more than a glorified pressure group for pinstriped pinheads and outdated oddballs who cannot understand that the Conservatives need to appeal to as wide a cross-section of people as possible (and therefore need to look beyond pigheaded single-issue dogmatism) and cannot forgive the Conservatives for that.

U-kippers are therefore not stupid, as their indiscriminate targeting of Conservatives - whether Europhile or Eurosceptic - is a deliberate strategy driven by their dogged determination to destroy the hated Conservatives, like (as 'HF' says above) bitter, jilted ex-lovers.

It is people who vote for UKIP in general elections, in the expectation that that vote will make a difference, who might conceivably be considered to be a bit, um, stupid.

I know of at least one person who has voted for UKIP before who now feels he was more than a little stupid for doing so.

[Philip]

I think John Redwood is right that voting UKIP will keep Eurosceptic MPs and the Tories, who are the more Eurosceptic main party, out, while letting more Europhile Lab and Lib Dems in.

I recall studying the results of the last General Election, and coming to believe if it were not for votes going to UKIP, particularly in some south east seats, there would have been a hung Parliament. And now it seems many more traditional Conservative core voters may stay at home or vote UKIP - as in Bromley. We need to reach out to the centre-ground, but not lose core voters at the same time. So it is good that David Cameron is bringing the Conservatives onto the centre ground on the environment, public services, and saying there is more to life than making money. But at the same time we need a strong and clear 'right-wing' stance on things like crime and law & order, security, backing the traditional family and marriage, and of course clear EU-scepticism - better-off out.

[Jens Winton]

Richard,

Whatever image problem there is, we will have to deal with as we make the running week-to-week, month-to-month.

It won't be just on blogs and forums like this but on the streets where my members and I have been pacing, leafleting the electorate. It won't happen overnight but then nothing good does, does it?

[Jens Winton]

I helped out in Bromley and Chiselhurst, and it again confirmed to me what parties like us ought to be doing. Not waiting until an election is called to campaign. But to do it year-round regardless. That is why I admire the Lib-Dems in Lewisham. They are persistent and this year picked up ten new councillors in this borough alone. Yet, their net take up this year was just two. Ours was one. These are the lessons and experiences I study more, not the rantings of a man who's best known to many as not knowing the words of a national anthem.

[Tory T]

Jens what do you and other UKIPers say about somebody like Chad Noble who openly proclaims that UKIP's aim is to assist Labour and the Liberal Democrats?

http://www.ukiphome.com/comments.asp?sid=735

"We should be working now, in every possible seat where our votes could result in a defeat for a Conservative candidate.

This will help Labour and the LibDems this one time"

and

"If we do this, then for one more Labour term, there will be the real chance of a Tory split"

So what UKIP really wants is "one more Labour term"?

That proves you are really a pro-EU party trying to get pro-EU MPs elected, because your real aim is only to help Labour defeat the Tories, not to get Eurosceptics into power.

Not that it matters, the way you are collapsing and the BNP is taking all your voters. 40 votes is dreadful. Bromley was dreadful for you too.

[Tanuki]

UKIP are at least prepared to talk openly about the elephant-in-the-room, rather than trying to hide it under the carpet. Though not a UKIPper myself, a part of me thinks their siphoning off of a significant tranche of traditionalist-Conservative votes at the next GE might just be the kick it takes to make Cameron Central come to accept that squabbling with NuLab and the Libdems over the middle-ground of politics is a mug's game which will get us nowhere.

[michael mcgough]

"I know of at least one person who has voted for UKIP before who now feels he was more than a little stupid for doing so."

The same may be said by many who voted for David Cameron.

[David Sergeant]

"On the doorstep when I come across a UKIP Member, they are glad that the Lib Dems are winning elections and we have a Labour Govt! It is like a ex-lover who is only happy when you are unhappy. They have no other purpose in life. UKIPs Leaders behave like sad jilted people."

My experience exactly. UKIP voters see hitting the Tory party first and worrying about the EU second. They are just sad people.

Also;"It never ceases to amaze me that childish abuse of us is the stock in trade for those that disagree with UKIP."

I'm incredulous. UKIP supporters, on this blog, limit themselves to simple abuse. People respond with polite viewpoints and just get playground rubbish back. Perhaps the rest of us should just give them punch and judy insults so they understand how daft they are.

[Jens Winton]

Tory T,

I have a lot of time for Chad but that doesn't make me agree with all he says. He is entitled to his view and I to mine. I am all for strategic use of resources, and if the case can be made then fine.

That is why our BOO approach makes sense for us. Anything less would be too easy for us to get distracted in endless analysis. I have a branch to run in Lewisham and the electorate couldn't really give a stuff for all this. They want to know why should they care, and whether we'll be around.

That is my challenge. To learn from past elections, mine included, to see what can be done. Politicos may think we ought to get ourselves tied up in the wrangling of so-called EU-sceptics in the Conservatives that will never come over to us. Me? Take a look at my website at www.ukiplewisham.com or my blog. That's borne from personal experience as well as what has happened elsewhere. It's all about trying to be relevant and persistent. That is why the Lib-Dems did well in my borough, and why I hope we are as good as them electorally one day.

[Old Hack]

Like the Lib Dems and the BNP, UKIP thrives on the oxygen of publicity. How to kill them? Starve them of exposure in the media.

The more we talk about the stupid buggers the more they delude themselves into thinking they are somehow significant when instead they are nothing more than political gadflies.

Whilst it may annoy some Tories that DC does not put Europe at the forefront of his agenda it is absolutely they right way to deal with the UKIP.

Much as I wish John Redwood well (and wish he were Shadow Chancellor so he could start doing a serious job that is not being taken so seriously at the moment), I don't think he has made much in the way of inroads to the base of UKIP support now or in the past.

Most UKIPers are obsessive types fixated on the EU as the source of all evil when in fact the problem is much closer to home.

They are also viral infiltrators intent in sucking the blood out the Tory Party. They should be denied exposure, access or involvement at every turn.

[Esbonio]

I think a good argument could be put up to suggest that most people would view political activists as a bit odd, regardless of party. As for talk of "bitter, jilted ex-lovers", it strikes me it cuts both ways.

I actually think UKIP's views over Europe cannot be flawed intellectually and that the UK would be better off out. Indeed I think most Tories think so too. Those who do not share that opinion should of course have pushed off to join the LibDems or Labour years ago. At least UKIP are straight on Europe.

[Jens Winton]

David Sergeant,

I cannot speak for other UKIP members, only me. And I can only respond to the slurs I know about, where we are called racists and fools by Conservatives. That is not polite in my book.

While I admire the Lib Dems, I rather prefer to see a UKIP victory over one of their own. I take no joy in any other party having an edge over us, regardless of who they are.

[Jens Winton]

Old Hack,

While I am happy to compare the EU as odious as Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia (just because there are no bullets being shot, doesn't mean the pen is not mightier than the sword), I also make reference to our domestic agenda, in policies we have announced, and ask you to consider why are the Conservatives not doing the same? Why the fixation on just image alone by them? And if we are so ridiculous, then why are we being routinely called names? Why do we bother the Conservatives so? If we are so irrelevant, why not leave us alone?

Unless, we are making the inroads that are causing certain people to get nervous...

[Jack Stone]

We all know the sort who support UKIP. They may not have the Doc Martins and skinheads of the BNP but as someone said once when they open there mouths all they basically are is the BNP in blazers.

[Jens Winton]

Jack Stone,

I am the Chairman of UKIP Lewisham and take offence at your remarks. I am half-German and am married to a Black Jamaican woman with two interracial children. This is a fact I presented to Mr. Cameron directly after he accused me of being racist earlier this year, and he took the coward's way out by refusing to apologise.

Now that you know my background, are YOU willing to retract your accusation against me?

[TomTom]

All UKIP are is BNP Lite. The sooner more people realise that the better.

Posted by: Jack Stone | December 15, 2006 at 18:02

So what ? People who CHOOSE BNP or UKIP think that other party is 'New Blue Labour'

The fact is that Conservatives cannot win in Rotherham, nor can UKIP. So read Iain Dale:

Saturday, November 04, 2006
The BNP Vote in Rotherham: Please Explain

Scanning through my copy of LibDem News - as you do - I came across this local government by-election result from last week...

Rotherham MBC, Rotherham West Ward
Labour 1024 (44.3% +3.8%)
BNP 606 (26.2% + 26.2%)
Ind 538 (23.2% -15%)
Con 146 (6.3% +6.3%)
LibDem (Did not stand -21.3%)

No UKIP but Conservatives looked very sick in October 2006

[Esbonio]

Jack Stone

Whilst you ponder your post and that of Jens I would like to draw something less weighty to your attention.

I am beginning to find your relentless misspelling of the possessive adjective "their" almost as tiresome as your posts. Please note the word "there" is an adverb usually denoting location.

[TomTom]

but as someone said once when they open there mouths all they basically are is the BNP in blazers.

THEIR................learn English Jack, the government are running courses for non-native speakers............sign up

[Esbonio]

TomTom

Beat you!

[Jack Stone]

I don`t accuse everyone in your small party of being racist but I do believe that you have a lot of racists in your party and I believe that your party`s right-wing extremism does lead to you adopting many attitudes that some of us believe are racist.
I believe that many in your party are attracted to you because they think you are against immigrants and Europeans not just that you are against the EU which is bad enougth.
I am afraid when you support an extreme party like UKIP you will be tarnished by the racism and extreme views of many of your fellow supporters.
If you don`t want that and sincerely don`t want to see this country become further controlled by Europe you do the only sensible thing and join The Conservative Party.

[David Sergeant]

"I cannot speak for other UKIP members, only me. And I can only respond to the slurs I know about, where we are called racists and fools by Conservatives. That is not polite in my book"

Jens Winton, you come from down south. I'm up north and I can tell you that UKIPs general election strategy had clear racial implications. Cameron was quite right, except up here you were not in a closet.

[Jens Winton]

Jack Stone,

You say:

"We all know the sort who support UKIP. They may not have the Doc Martins and skinheads of the BNP but as someone said once when they open there mouths all they basically are is the BNP in blazers."

You tarred EVERY UKIP member, including me. That is not the same as saying SOME, and given that you are incapable of saying sorry to me, then I suggest you will go far in your party as one of Mr. Cameron's favourites.

UKIP has, among its burdens, the ongoing battle to point out we are not anti-Europe, but anti-EU. It will take time because the national agenda has made this a debate on the concept of Europe itself. That is why it is a short jump to saying `Anti-Europe' to `Anti-Foreigner' to racist. This will take time and people like me will always be around to challenge those like you who take the lazy, and I now note, the coward's way out.

[thickasthreeplanks]

Well Boyo...
In these parts we might be stupid but we knows how to sing the Welsh Anthem.....

[Jens Winton]

David Sergeant,

If Mr. Cameron is right, (and he's not, because while you might point out something you think is borderline racist, I can show you electoral material that is totally not), why could he not be big enough to apologise to me? Like Mr. Stone, he tarred ALL UKIP people as racists on radio! We have never ranted about anything racist on the electronic media. And don't forget Lord McPherson's definition of a racist incident is one whereby if the victim feels it is racist, then it is racist. This is backed by all the Police forces in this country, but not the CRE when I complained to them earlier this year.

Rough justice indeed.

[Dress Sense]

If UKIP are BNP in blazers then Labour must be Commies in designer drag, Lib Dems are sinners in sandals and Dave just a Toff in a hood.

[TomTom]

TomTom

Beat you!

Posted by: esbonio | December 15, 2006 at 19:26

It hurts......you kinky man

[John Moss]

The UKIP vote in the Enfield Haringey constituency in teh 2004 London elections was five times the margin by which Peter Forrest lost to Labour. In North East it was about the size of Labour's lead over Andrew Boff.

If we had won those two seats, we could have crippled Livingstone's adminstration in London.

Vote UKIP, get Livingstone.

[Martin Cole]

Few have been as consistently critical of UKIP, over as an extended period, as myself.

Evidence is available on my blog:

http://www.ukipuncovered.blogspot.com

My role in mounting the protest that was Veritas is a matter of record.

I earlier urged John Redwood to stand against Michael Howard, although as a Fellow of All Souls, I had my own doubts as to the true depths of his EU-sceptic credentials.(My blog Teetering Tories carries the blow by blow account).

My latest postings here, and on another of my blogs "Ironies Too" have recently concentrated on the concerns of David Cameron's drug denials following the Suffolk horrors, but this evening in connection with UKIP, I recommend visiting the blog to see again Farage's attack on Blair at the end of the British EU Presidency - view that and then knock the UKIP!

http://www.ironiestoo.blogspot.com

If an ostrich then watch the news channels and see the heartbreak of the parents of the victims of the drugs culture Cameron is unable to correct.

The Tories have no answers, those who remain in the party thus become increasingly besmirched and less effective. Hence this belated John Redwood blog I presume.

[Odessa Calling]

Thank's for the entertainment lads. It's been great reading you all.

[Happy Tory]

Editor, Isn't it about time you set up a separate little area just for UKIP-ers, so that we can concentrate on some policy debates rather than the kind of ranting we've seen on this thread? We could call it, oh I don't know, UKIPgohome, let's say...

[Greenjacket]

I work in the Pub Trade as a senior manager I visit 20-30 pubs a week up and down the country,the one common theme I hear in conversations everywhere,be it Leeds or London, is that the Labour AND Tory party are history, I really and honestly believe that the the electorate are going to kick ass at the next election,and I for one will be putting my cross next to the UKIP guys, in the real hope that with them we have a chance of saving our once great country from the EU madness.
Happy Christmas

[ex Candidate]

Jack Stone is an ignorant and leftist troll who should bugger off to the Lib Dems where he belongs.

I would like the UKIP bashers to give one example of a successful Conservative initiative to repatriate powers from Brussels to Westminster.

Dave's Foreign policy Council is full of Eurphiles like Douglas Hurd and Chris Patten. Tory MEPs recently voted for a report that callec for the introduction of the Euro in ALL Member States.

The ED page has disappeared off the EPP website. The website of the Movement for European Reform lacks any Euro-critical content of substance.

I am tired of the dishonest nonsense spouted by so-called Eurosceptics. They have achieved nothing and sell-out their principles to advance their careers.

We are Better Off Out!

[Mark Wadsworth]

TomTom, Esbonio, if you are going to bother making fun of Jack Stone's spelling mistakes, why not pick him up on "Doc Martins" as well? The boots are called "Doc Martens".

[Editor]

Jack Stone (18:58: "We all know the sort who support UKIP. They may not have the Doc Martins and skinheads of the BNP but as someone said once when they open there mouths all they basically are is the BNP in blazers."

Jack, some of us may disagree with UKIP but your throwaway attack on all UKIP members is unacceptable. If you repeat it on this site or an accusation of a similar kind I will not hesitate to prevent you from commenting on this site again.

[ukfirst]

QUOTE FROM REDWOOD: "they may give us more federalist MPs by tipping the balance in favour of the pro-EU Liberal Democrat or Labour candidate"

What difference would that make? The EU produces 80% of our laws anyway and takes no notice of the House of Commons and thereby the British people. Even he knows he talking through his hat.

[steve]

When I read media reports such as the one concerning prisoners being given the right to vote by European directive and see our parliament powerless to prevent such a move, I and most fair minded people feel threatened and infuriated in such a situation. I would just like to ask what John Redwood would suggest people like me are meant to do in an election when they find only one party ready to stand up to the EU steamroller. I suggest that John Redwood, Cameron & co wake up and realise that the population of this country want leadership and real discussion on the most pressing issues of the day and most of all we want a sovereign government with real unadulterated power to implement the solutions to our problems. Instead of childish name calling of other more thoughtful parties Mr. Redwood should engage in a real debate about real issues that matter to the electorate, that is of course unless his only mission is to please David Cameron.

[Richard Carey]

I am tired of the dishonest nonsense spouted by so-called Eurosceptics. They have achieved nothing and sell-out their principles to advance their careers.

Given your handle, ex-candidate, I'm assuming that either you didn't do that or it just didn't work for you! In any event, I profoundly disagree - I know a number of honourable elected Conservatives who are sceptical about the EU's operations and genuinely want to change it.

Jack Stone is an ignorant and leftist troll who should bugger off to the Lib Dems where he belongs. I would like the UKIP bashers to give one example of a successful Conservative initiative to repatriate powers from Brussels to Westminster.

I'll let Jack answer as to his own status, but it's interesting that you ask him to leave to the LibDems, while you ask him to defend UKIP. UKIP is a political opponent to me as a Conservative activist, nothing more, nothing less. Don't know if you think "Rightist" trolls should be more welcome here, but as far as UKIP is concerned, I don't want to help defend them, I just want to beat them.

This does raise an interesting issue about fighting minority party candidates. I live in an area (South Lincs) where Lab and LibDem are comparatively weak in the north of the constituency, and some challenges there at local government level come from any organised independents and minority parties to the "right" . UKIP came second in 2004 EP elections behind us, and we unfortunately have a BNP councillor (ridiculous nutter somewhere to the right of the Kaiser!) within the constituency.

I sometimes think. listening to colleagues locally, that in spurring them to campaign against these people, it's always worth asking "alright, what would you do if it were a particularly lunatic LibDem?"

There's sometimes a slight reticence about tackling minority party/ind candidates in some wards, perhaps for fear of drawing attention to them - but long-term positive campaigning, refraining from mentioning them directly to refuse them credibility, and loads of communication should work wonders against them as against one of the mainstream parties.

[michael mcgough]

I'm afraid that the world has moved on from the time when a well crafted piece from John Redwood would be enough to send potential Ukip jacks back into their Tory boxes.A party where the old guard of Maude Clarke,Hurd,Heseltine,Gummer,Patten etc clearly now pull the strings of an inexperienced leader just endorses the fear of being conned.What did happen to the Tory policy on fisheries?Why can only backbenchers support BOO whilst shadow(non) ministers and whips are blackmailed into supporting the collective policy of continued EU membership.Why would those seeking disengagement from what even the most active champions of the EU now CONTINUALLY refer to as an experiment vote Conservative? Surely it is stupid to vote for a party whose STATED policy is the opposite of that you want.

[Matt Davis]

As a hardline Eurosceptic is dismays me massively to see the two parties who ought to be working together to fight the greater evil of a Federal Europe instead turning their guns on each other. Yes this is principally UKIP's fault for applying an insane policy of going after Eurosceptic Tory parliamentary seats because they think they might win one. But then when they are a party mainly made up of disgruntled ex Tories I suppose that "Hell Hath No Fury Like a Tory Scorned" must apply. It is however seriously in our own best interests for the Conmservatives to come to an accomodation with UKIP which gets them off of our back, where they are going nowhere anyway, and turns us all against the total Europhilia of, in particular, the LibDems. But of course with the Cameroonies looking towards the truly stupid possibility of a joint administration with the LibDems, and UKIP believeing they can take advantage of the considerable disquiet amongst traditional Tory members as to the direction of their party currently, then I suppose their attacks on our seats are only likely to get worse. Complete shame really, a genuine opportunity for an effective united anti federalist front has been squandered on the alter of individuals' vanity and ego.

[Richard Weatherill]

"This is wrong, Richard, UKIP will not stand against any BOO MPs or MEPs from ANY Party. UKIP are co-operating with BOO."

Christina, I can see how UKIP could choose not to stand against a BOO MP (or BOO candidate for Westminster), if that's actually the settled UKIP policy - although I'm intrigued to know how UKIP might determine whether or not someone's commitment to BOO is genuine.

On the other hand, it's nonsense to say that UKIP won't stand against BOO MEPs, because of the way the slate system works. Are you seriously suggesting that in the East Midlands (for instance), UKIP wouldn't put up any candidates if the entire Conservative slate was 'BOO-certified' (whatever that means)?! In any case, probably none of the candidates on the Labour or Lib Dem lists would want anything to do with BOO, so this commitment is essentially meaningless.

[michael mcgough]

Richard the stated UKIP policy is not to stand against sitting MPs of any party who sign up to BOO by July 2007 and actively campaign for EU withdrawal.It does not apply to prospective candidates nor to MEPs ,where as you state the list system is in play.

[Richard Carey]

On the other hand, it's nonsense to say that UKIP won't stand against BOO MEPs, because of the way the slate system works.

It's probably more of a nonsense to say that they won't stand because they like the salaries, allowances and expenses that the European Parliament provides. I seem to remember that after the 2004 elections a number of their MEPs effectively said that they were going to eschew any representative function on behalf of the people who were unfortunate enough to electt them, and pull the majority of their allowances to support political campaigns in the UK.

Are you seriously suggesting that in the East Midlands (for instance), UKIP wouldn't put up any candidates if the entire Conservative slate was 'BOO-certified'

Well, last time, as you probably remember, they stood their star candidate Robert Kilroy-Silk (anyone heard of him lately? - thought not) in the East Midlands, against a strong list of Conservative MEP candidates headed by Chris Heaton-Harris and Roger Helmer. So I have to agree with you that they'll stand wherever they think it to their electoral advantage (which is what I'd do, to be fair).

Besides, do UKIP seriously think that any serious candidate would sign up to a campaign on the "instructions" of their opponents? We simply mustn't be seen to allow these people that kind of credibility. You really think they wouldn't play on it anyway?

Complete shame really, a genuine opportunity for an effective united anti federalist front has been squandered on the alter of individuals' vanity and ego.

Yes, I'd much rather be fighting Labour, and they are a distraction from that goal, but if UKIP do pop up, I'm as happy to beat them as any other opposition party.

[Mark Wadsworth]

Richard Carey, Robert Kilroy-Silk (ex-UKIP) was a refreshing breath of anger and fury on the ever tedious Question Time a few weeks back.

As I remember, he said that religion was a bunch of fairy tales for the weakminded, that these Labour donors were a million miles from being socialists and that he had been subject to a six-month criminal investigation for pointing out that Arabs are women oppressors, limb amputators and suidice bombers.

He's been through the mill, and obviously not come out unscathed, but as a former TV presenter the highlight of the show!

[Richard Allen]

How stupid can you get?

How about spending years supporting a party that constantly betrays you?

That's what I did and I always used to spout the same rubbish as Redwood, a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour, blah blah blah. My stupidity only became apparant to me when I left the party and escaped the partisan world of tribal loyalty.

[Richard Carey]

He's been through the mill, and obviously not come out unscathed, but as a former TV presenter the highlight of the show!

And here was I thinking he was just an arrogant MEP candidate who when elected had a strop with his own party (well, one of them!) and disappeared for a long stretch in complete disregard of his constituents.

I seem to remember Chris Heaton-Harris MEP offering a bottle of champagne in a "Where woz Kilroy" competition!

[Richard Carey]

I always used to spout the same rubbish... a vote for UKIP is a vote for Labour, blah blah blah. My stupidity only became apparant to me...

Presumably mathematics will also become apparent to you at some point in the future. It's not rubbish, for example in many crucial Lab-Con marginal parliamentary seats, it could well be a small part of the reality of the electoral arithmetic.

[stupid ukip troll]

Eurofake Tories - Stupid or what?

Michael Howard on being asked if he was completely committed to the EU - "Absolutely"

"The British people must be led, slowly and unconsciously into abandonment of their traditional economic defences, not asked" - Lord Peter Thornycroft

"In current times it is important to be virulently Euro sceptic in your rhetoric and if this means concealing your real beliefs - don't worry. Remember two things; you are a politician, so lying comes naturally, and secondly, it is just for one night. Tomorrow they will have forgotten your name, so you can go on being a federalist with a clear conscience." - Ken Clarke

"There is no question whatever of the Conservative Party taking us out of the EU" - Theresa May.

"I’ve literally got a very clear view on the European Union which doesn’t involve withdrawal” - David Davis.

"There was no way the Conservative Party would ever withdraw from the EU" - Anne Widdecombe.

"I want to be part of the European Union (but) I want that European Union to change." - David Cameron.

"Those who indicate support for British withdrawal from the EU will be sacked from the front bench" - David Cameron.

"And what I've said very clearly is that we will leave the EPP. We will form a new group.. It will happen. It is a matter of months not years and it will be done.” - David Cameron.

And who can forget this golden classic? - "We want to be in Europe but not run by Europe" - John Major.

Dear Mr Deadwood - Your Tree has woodworm and we aint stupid.

[Tam Large]

There are some matters which have not been covered, or have been misrepresented, in the discussions above.

1) The Referendum Party "did not win a single MP in 1997", but we did not expect to. (I was an RP Parliamentary Candidate at the time - and our pre-poll estimate was 5%, which was close to what was achieved). Our role was to affect the political climate. We had a major, and ongoing, effect, as we forced all three major parties to pledge themeselves to hold a Referendum on membership of the Euro. Without that pledge, we would have been bundled into the Euro now by Tony Blair, with disastrous consequences for our econony.

2) It is meaningless to compare UKIP performance in EU elections to that in General Elections, as some have done, to suggest a slide in support. In EU elections there is proportional representation, so smaller parties (like UKIP and the Greens in the UK) can get MEPs on proportion. This means that voters (who are NOT stupid) know they can vote for the party which echoes their views best, not just tactically. I know that the majority of my close Conservative colleagues voted UKIP, because they knew their votes would count. No Conservative sceptics lost out because of UKIP MEPs, for the lower ranks of the list held the europhiles, who had been relegated there through the Conservative activists voting in droves for sceptics like Roger Helmer and Daniel Hannan, putting them into invulnerable positions at the top of the Conservative List. It was europhiles, such as James Provan here in the South East, who lost out - and many of us cheered to see them go.

General elections, being first-past-the-post, are entirely different, as voters have to vote tactically, often for the lesser of evils between the top two parties, instead of for those who represent their views. Thus UKIP vote goes down - although their new policy of not standing against BOO supporting MPs will ensure that it is europhiles who lose out to UKIP votes next election.

3) Finally: several people above, have repeated the mantra that UKIP votes will let in europhiles. However, now all three main parties are europhile: Cameron just pays lip-service, but his actions on the EPP and recent praise for the Commission show more eloquently than words what his real intentions are. Laws from the EU are now above 70%, and nudging 80% on some estimates (it increases quickly due to the incredible torrent of new laws from Brussels, week in and week out), so it is the EU which is far more important than apparently "national" issues, for the EU is acting as puppet-master for those as well.

I am still nominally a Conservative - my membership paid last January is still current - but I now wonder how long I will remain one.

[Richard Carey]

so it is the EU which is far more important than apparently "national" issues, for the EU is acting as puppet-master for those as well.

I'm not sure as that is so true in the eyes of the majority of moderate voters? On a thread earlier this week, I quoted this piece of polling, but was aware that the data was out of date.

Although it's only tangential to this thread in my view (I want to beat UKIP on our own terms, not engage with them on turf of their choosing), does anyone have any more current polling data on the salience of direct EU issues on voting intention? Just curious.

[matt wright]

Well this has smoked out the UKIP trolls good and proper,

Matt

[Deputy Editor]

My stupidity only became apparant to me when I left the party and escaped the partisan world of tribal loyalty.

How has euroscepticism benefited from your leaving the party?

[TomTom]

Mark Wadsworth you are of course right..........but he is snide about Dr Martens when he is not similarly snide about Nike Airs which are essentially a copy of the cushioned sole and wonderful when walking in London or New York.

[Tory T]

"Well this has smoked out the UKIP trolls good and proper,

Matt"

I have thought for a long time that the loudest and most frequent voices on Conservative Home's comment threads were actually not Conservatives at all, but pro-UKIP fringe trolls who are against the party.

This thread gives us a nice confirmation of that, doesn't it?

Esbonio
Christina
Michael McGough
Tam Large
UK First

and the list goes on.

[Esbonio]

Tory T

I have been posting on and off on this website since its inception, so I am glad you have read (I presume some) of my posts even if you have, in part, misconstrued them.

If by UKIP troll you mean someone who is a member or supporter of UKIP, then you are mistaken. I have been a supporter of the conservative party all my life. However I have have not renewed my membership following the general election because I do not support Cameron and his acolytes. Europe played no part in that decision. As a natural Tory I find it hard to know whom I will vote for in the next election, but I doubt I can vote Tory with Cameron in charge.

I hope you enjoy my future posts as much as the previous ones.

[Esbonio]

I think what really infuriates Cameron supporters and assorted modernisers is the fact that there are still some people with conservative opinins which they would like to see supported by a Conservative Party. The modernisers' cognitive dissonance manifests itsef various ways not the least however in name calling of which there has been far too much.

[A l South]

As stupid as UKIP?

UKIP branch Chairman James Robertshaw, owns a shop selling power-generating windmills.

UKIP policy is to halt the erection of all wind turbines (UKIP General Election Manifesto).

So Mr Robertshaw supports a party that, if ever elected, would put him out of business.

The words STUPID springs to mind!

What a loony fruitcake!!!

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

As a hardline Eurosceptic is dismays me massively to see the two parties who ought to be working together to fight the greater evil of a Federal Europe instead turning their guns on each other. Yes this is principally UKIP's fault for applying an insane policy of going after Eurosceptic Tory parliamentary seats because they think they might win one. But then when they are a party mainly made up of disgruntled ex Tories I suppose that "Hell Hath No Fury Like a Tory Scorned" - Matt Davis

It's rather ironic then that you, a self-proclaimed Eurosceptic, should be blaming a party for being Eurosceptic, and taking votes from one that is clearly not. You appear to be under the impression that, other than Europe, there are no differences between the party. Well, may a I suggest that you read the UKIP policy proposals on their website, and then the Tories ones.

Ooops, of course you won't be able to do that, as the Tories haven't got any. Well, if you don't count the policies for 'green' taxes, hugging hoodies, following Polly Toynbee's instruction manual on 'how to live your life', and not doing anything to upset the Brussels Commission.

And you wonder why UKIP-ers just laugh when they read the desperate posts of Tory die-hards ? As for you being 'Eurosceptic', I think not.

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

"UKIP branch Chairman James Robertshaw, owns a shop selling power-generating windmills." A I South

You seem not to have grasped the difference between roof mounted power-generating windmills (can be attached to residential dwellings), and enormous wind turbines, which are typically set up covering many hectares in areas of outstanding natural beauty.

UKIP have never proposed the banning of the former. Perhaps you might want to sit down for a while to think about it. If you can't work it out, I can always draw you a picture to indicate scale differences.

[A I South]

UKIP state

"Alternative sources of energy such as renewables are not yet cost-effective and come with environmental costs of their own."

UKIP also state green policies are "the new witchcraft."

UKIP only answer is hundreds of new nuclear power stations!

[Tam Large]

Amusing to see myself called a UKIP troll. Up to last March I was Conservative Party Constituency Deputy Chairman (Campaigning), Campaign Team (Posters), Executive Council Member, Branch Chairman, and Constituency e-Mail Newsletter Editor. [All Lewes Constituency].

Some of the europhiles out there seem to think that only UKIP are anti-EU and hate what Balmeron is doing... Sorry guys, come out of your caves, the vast majority of our activists and members are still conservatives: territory now abandoned by Dave Blameron and taken over by UKIP.

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

"Alternative sources of energy such as renewables are not yet cost-effective and come with environmental costs of their own."

So where does it say that they're going to ban small electricity generating windmills on houses ? It clearly doesn't. Now, go and dream elsewhere, please.

[Tory Loyalist]

Jack Stone is an ignorant and leftist troll who should bugger off to the Lib Dems where he belongs.
__________________________________________________________________

That "Jack Stone" is a troll is beyond doubt.

The question is; is he a Labour, LibDem, BNP or even a UKIP troll?

The fact that he posts stupid "straw man" allegations easily demolished by UKIP supporters adds credence to the theory that he is a UKIP agent provocateur

[HF]

Richard Carey, you stated the following "I seem to remember that after the 2004 elections a number of their MEPs effectively said that they were going to eschew any representative function on behalf of the people who were unfortunate enough to electt them, and pull the majority of their allowances to support political campaigns in the UK."

Yes they did say that and if they had done it we would have a bigger problem on our hands. But I have to tell you that they broke this commitment. They actually spent so much resources in Brussels and on themselves and so little resources on campaigning in the UK, that their then Chairman (Petrina and not an MEP) tried to bring them back to their promises. She was then told where to get off and she resigned. Half of the UKIP NEC has resigned this year over the problems caused by their MEPs being a "party within a party". It is also a major factor in why their Membership has fallen from 28k to around 10k (Petrina's figure) in under 2 years.

[Jack Stone]

I agree with the comment made that UKIP are our political opponents and we should be concentrating on beating them not defending them.
It amazes me how many so called Conservatives there are on this site who jump to there defence everytime someone attacks them.
I have no reason to go off and join the Lib/Dems because the present leadership have sensibly seen where the right have driven the party in the past and why we have lost three elections in a row and been out of power for ten years and have seen that my moderate Liberal Conservative views are what the party needs to get back into power and are what the country needs as well.
Europe is no longer an issue because you right-wing Eurosceptics have lost the arguments and people accept that our future is in not out.
As for the other silly childish comments made by Tom Tom and others. Grow up gentleman please!

[HF]

Why has no one actually refuted the logic behind what John Redwood said in "They have also shown that by putting some of their better candidates and strongest efforts into opposing Eurosceptic Conservatives in seats the Conservatives can win, they may give us more federalist MPs by tipping the balance in favour of the pro-EU Liberal Democrat or Labour candidate."

Presumably because everyone agrees that John's logic is right?

[Tory T]

"Half of the UKIP NEC has resigned this year over the problems caused by their MEPs being a "party within a party". It is also a major factor in why their Membership has fallen from 28k to around 10k (Petrina's figure) in under 2 years."

Interesting - election results have certainly shown UKIPs position to be dire, perhaps this partly explains why they are shrinking in members and collapsing at the polls

[Tory T]

HF

"they may give us more federalist MPs by tipping the balance in favour of the pro-EU Liberal Democrat or Labour candidate."

Presumably because everyone agrees that John's logic is right?"

UKIP certainly is trying to get pro-EU Labour and LibDem MPs elected, see the quote from UKIP home above.

UKIP "wants to help Labour and the LibDems this one time" and UKIP wants "one more Labour term".

Tory future MPs like Chris Heaton-Harris and Priti Patel are the way to counter Europe, not fringe explicitly pro-Labour groups like ukip.

[Cardinal Pirelli]

A very useful thread, it could almost have been designed to 'out' the UKIP trolls.

They are an irrelevance; although I agree with those who are anti-EU all that this bunch do is give succour to those who are pro-EU, they also know as much so are even worse than labour or lib dems.

As such I hold anyone who supportes UKIP in contempt.

[Chad]

Tory T,
I guess all you have now is lies and abuse.

No-one but die-hard tribalists believes that the Tory Party is \"the most eurosceptic\" of the big 2 parties.

What if 6 more Labour MP\'s sign up to BOO? That would fairly make labour the most eurosceptic, and thus you would be actually endorsing other rpo EU withdrawal parties to split the tory vote.

[Warning: This comment will be deleted as part of the new ConHome censorship programme of dissenting voices in precisely 60 seconds]

At least Iain allows some dissenting voices on his blog!

[Yet Another Anon]

That could be said about any party, many of those voting UKIP simply wouldn't vote if it didn't exist, it was the same with the SDP - it wasn't all ex-Labour, ex-Conservative and Liberal voters voting for them, new people who hadn't been involved in politics joined them or voted for them.

As a party UKIP is only 13 years old, in comparison where was Labour 13 years after the formation of the Liberal-Labour Representation Committee? In 1906 they won 29 seats but then again their vote was concentrated, their rise was partly due to a change in who could vote and was helped because the Liberal Party later lost it's way, if the Conservative Party collapsed I have no doubt that UKIP would be the next UK Government, it has increased it's vote at each UK General Election since it was formed, in 1997 it had the problem of being overshadowed by the Referendum Party who with Sir James Goldsmith had very substantial financial backing, if UKIP gets any defecting MP's it could very quickly shoot up - Nigel Farage could be Leader of the Opposition within 10 years and yet be Prime Minister, John Redwood does not approve of the EU, he dissapproves of State Welfare but for reasons of political expediency he says he is merely cautious over them, if UKIP were to emerge as the leading challenge to Labour I have no doubt that John Redwood would join them - he might even lead UKIP and perhaps be able to introduce something similar to the Contract For America that Newt Gingrich attempted to introduce while Leader of the House of Representatives.

[Cllr Keith Standring]

We should recall that BETTER OFF OUT held an immensely popular fringe meeting at the Conservative Party Conference at which I was privileged to assist. It attracted one of the largest audiences Bournemouth '06 had seen. Hundreds of people packed the De Vere Suite at the Royal Bath Hotel, leaving standing room only, to hear Philip Davies MP, Roger Helmer MEP, Laura Midgley (Campaign Against Political Correctness) and Daniel Hannan MEP make the case for freeing Britain from the EU.

Highlighting the facts that the EU makes the majority of British laws, promotes political correctness, controls all trade and hobbles economic growth and competitiveness, they made the case for withdrawal to loud cheers and enthusiastic applause from the 400-strong audience.

Mark Wallace, BETTER OFF OUT Campaign Manager, said, "David Cameron may not want to 'bang on' about the EU, but we think it absolutely right to bang on about how to achieve a successful economy, a healthy democracy and a free society. Leaving the EU is crucial in achieving those goals."

A major benefit of BETTER OFF OUT is that it brings clarity to the debate. By asking people to sign up to the principle and the case that Britain would indeed be more prosperous and more free outside the European Union, we give them the opportunity to make their views clear on a cross-party initiative. That David Cameron has decided to ban those who do so from his front bench is misguided of him, but we should not let that blur the debate itself- that is what our opponents would like us to do.

In pledging not to oppose BETTER OFF OUT-committed MPs, UKIP has been very constructive and the whole anti-EU campaign has taken a big step forward. The unambiguous clarity BETTER OFF OUT has brought allowed that to happen. Before the ten MPs committed their support to BETTER OFF OUT, there was no way for anyone to be clear about sitting MPs' views of the EU. Whilst I am a free-market, libertarian Conservative, I can see entirely why UKIP are not willing to extend their offer to MPs who profess to be "eurosceptic" but are not willing to commit to BETTER OFF OUT. As Nigel Farage has said, "The BETTER OFF OUT campaign has redefined euroscepticism in Britain. Anybody not signed up to BETTER OFF OUT should not call them eurosceptics". As UKIP's aim is to get Britain out of the EU, it is hard to see how they could justify dropping opposition to MPs who simply want to renegotiate and stay inside. What is the difference between saying that and William Hague's impractical "In Europe not run by Europe"?

BETTER OFF OUT of course understands that there are MPs who sympathise but don't feel comfortable in committing yet, and our job is to reassure them and coax them into a full commitment, not to accept them half on board; to do that would be to blur the lines whose clarity has been so crucial to our success thus far. We also appreciate that there are frontbenchers who agree but are kept from public agreement by Cameron's ban. The best thing to do is to marshall support in their party and in their constituencies sufficiently that they do feel able to join us. Dilute the campaign and we will not gain more supporters, nor will we make any headway against the EU. Rather we will lose our current purpose, lose our publicly committed supporters and also lose any attraction. We are not in this for a quick partial fix, we are in it to succeed through a principled, pragmatic and open-minded approach. The success we have had to date is a testament to that, and is a sign that we should not turn aside now.

[Chad]

Hi Tim,
Long-standing Tory members of this forum have told me that they have stopped coming here because they are unhappy with your banning of me, not liking a \'rigged jury\' even though they disagree with my pov.

My comments have lasted over 60 seconds. Is that because you are still in bed or have unbanned me?

[Lindsay Jenkins]

The new leader of UKIP has said that sitting MPs who have already signed up to BOO will not be challenged at the next general election. That makes sense.

Without UKIP (or the Referendum Party) the Conservative Party would have signed up to the euro and today be even more federalist.

I have taken part in hours of discussion with party activists who blame UKIP for losing somewhere between 20 and 30 seats at the last election (and the previous one).

But we are only talking about a few hundred votes making all the difference between a Conservative win or loss. If the Party were in tune with the voters and could be believed to be anti-EU then the Party would not have to worry about a few hundred votes, it would be wining by many thousands.

It is not UKIP, which is the problem it is Conservative policies. Get those right and UKIP would become redundant.

[Tory T]

Here's hoping the Ed sticks to his promise to get rid of this troll whom I will not address directly

But the line about how UKIP wants to "help Labour and the LibDems this one time" and how UKIP's strategy will result in "one more Labour term" is in a post on HIS blog by HIM. And that post states "Socialism has won".

No use deleting it either, I have it saved in a Word file for use in leaflets at the election. ukip voters deserve to know that ukip is actively working to get LibLab MPs elected and that this is an overt goal of ukip.

A vote for ukip lets in Europhile mps and is part of their sorry strategy to "change the Tories". Exactly what Redwood said.

There's a reason why Roger Helmer, Priti Patel, Chris Heaton-Harris, Dan Hannan, Nirj Deva, etc etc are Conservatives and wouldn't touch the pro-Labour ukip with a bargepole