Serious Hague outwits ill-informed Prescott

William Hague, just back from a factfinding trip to Baghdad and Basra with David Cameron, used his first three questions to Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott to probe Government policy on Iraq.  Mr Hague asked about whether the Government planned to persuade America to involve neighbouring nations in improving the security of Iraq and whether security considerations could yet override announced plans to reduce UK deployments in Iraq "by thousands".  Mr Prescott's replies were vague but he suggested that the possibility of some neighbouring nations becoming involved in a solution to Iraq was complicated by their role in fomenting the situation in Iraq.  We learnt nothing but Mr Prescott made no big gaffe.

Mr Hague's second set of questions focused on Gordon Brown's pensions raid.  He asked Mr Prescott to tell the House the cumulative sum taken from pensions funds.  £100bn has been lost, Mr Hague, said after John Prescott had twice failed to answer the Shadow Foreign Secretary's questions and his diversionary efforts had infuriated the opposition benches.

During their previous encounter Mr Prescott exceeded terribly low expectations by combating Mr Hague's humour with scripted ripostes.  William Hague won this encounter by focusing on serious issues and exposing the Deputy Prime Minister's ignorance of detail.  Mr Prescott was given little opportunity to deploy rehearsed lines on this occasion although after William Hague's sixth and final question he tried a long-winded attack based on the Tory 'tosser ad'.   It was completely off-subject and The Speaker's failure to intervene is one reason why these exchanges are not respected by the public.

Vincent Cable asked about persistent regional inequalities.  The LibDems' Treasury spokesman and deputy leader said that the inequalities that really mattered were differences within regions rather than between regions and these differences were worse than after 18 years of Conservative Government.  John Prescott paid tribute to the Regional Development Agencies. 

Comments

[Alex R]

After Hague's first question on pensions, did anyone else see Prescott lean over to Hain and ask: "What does he mean?" (bit of lip reading required).

[Editor]

I listened to PMQs on Five Live so missed such images, Alex R. Thanks for that!

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Well Done William, you should have stayed as Leader and the Party would be better if you had done so.We would not be riven with division which is apparent in the posts on this site.
The point made by Vincent Cable regarding the inequalities in the Regions being worse than after when we were last in power.There are a lot of things worse off than when were last in power and the Pension scandal is something that we should continue to harry them with.People should not be allowed to forget what Gordon Brown has done to the Private Pensions of a great many people. The Major led Gov was not all bad but he was let down badly by some MP's in our Party.They all forgot that he was the leader who got more people to vote Tory and many thought they were there forever. John was a superb leader and a very nice man to talk to.

[HF]

More...More...

The Daily Politics perception panel slated Prescott.

William scored highly with the North.

Maybe William needs to be pushed to the forefront of our Northern communications?

In my view we need William focused on leading our Northern efforts and fronting up the media there rather than Foreign Affairs.

[Jorgen]

Well said, Cllr!

Alex R, I would have l-o-v-e-d to see that!

[Michael McGowan]

Scoring debating points about Brown's raid on pension funds may be entertaining but is pointless and opportunistic when George Osborne has no plans to reverse Brown's policy. What point is Hague trying to make?

[Richard Carey]

I only saw a few clips of PMQs, but gather thet Hague pretty much wiped the floor with Prescott - hope that later media coverage is more detailed, as the current writings don't seem to mention the Chief Oaf's inability to find the figures he was asked for...

What's the matter, John? Tony finds them in there nearly every week!

We would not be riven with division which is apparent in the posts on this site.

I'm not sure that this is really the case, Bruce. We blog addicts tend to be a self-selecting sample of a self-selecting sample. That aside, it's really not a hugely clever senitiment to post on a public blog, is it? If you're not up for re-election next year, my colleagues are!

[poll watcher]

Michael McGowan, an outstanding performance by Hague and a dismal one by Prescott and still you gripe. Are you a UKIP troll? I can't remember you contributing positively to any thread.

[Richard Carey]

Michael is of course well able to speak for himself (I rue that, sometimes), but I did wonder briefly if he was the same "Mick McGowan" that the arch party-hopper Chad Noble blogged was at the UKIP leadership count.

[poll watcher]

The Ed did say there was a policy of banning commenters who never ever say anything positive - it gets wearing and you have to wonder if this relentless complaining is just a ploy for fringe party votes.

[Scotty]

"We would not be riven with division which is apparent in the posts on this site."
Err, I think that you will find that David Cameron and George Osborne have an excellent relationship. IIRC William Hague and Michael Portillo were the conservative version of the backstabbing duo of Blair and Brown.
Wonder what kind of comments would have littered ConHom back then, not sure that there would have been any less criticism of the Conservative front bench.

Excellent performance from William Hague. John Prescott was a disgrace, after losing his own department he has plenty of time to read up on his own governments performance/policies. Does he even bother to attend cabinet meetings or has he been completely ignored and sidelined by his own cabinet?

[Ian Lucas]

Even by his low standards, the deputy Prime Minister was EMBARRASSING today!

[Mark Fulford]

Michael McGowan, an outstanding performance by Hague and a dismal one by Prescott and still you gripe.

Michael made a very fair gripe that we have no plans to reverse the pensions raid.

[Denis Cooper]

... having failed to spot it and warn the public when it was announced in 1997.

[Perdix]

Mark F 13.24. George Osborne asked Industry whether they would reinstate their pension plans if the "raid" was reversed. Industry said "No".

[Mark Fulford]

Perdix, yes, but for different reasons. No company would object to the tax being returned to its pension scheme or no further tax being charged. The reason that companies still won't reinstate pension plans is because it exposes them to too much risk. They'd rather not get involved.

[Jonathan Mackie]

"... having failed to spot it and warn the public when it was announced in 1997."

Not true Denis. Peter Lilley the Shadow Chancellor at the time raised the subject repeatedly. The problem was the public wasn't interested in what we had to say then. Labour could have and did get away with almost anything in 97 / 98.

Richard - I'll let my old fella speak for himself, but just to confirm he is stepping down after 40 odd years.

Are we driven by infighting? I agree nothing like Hague and Portillo, as Cameron and Osborne are close. I don't think you can deny that there is some unease in the parliamentary party and certainly within the membership at large.

I thought Hague was an excellent leader. He steadied the ship and professionalised the party. I think we need to consider his leadership on the basis of the time period it took place in. The four years to 2001 were hardly propitious for the party. We were traumatised following the 97 debacle and for the first time some areas had no Tory MP. Hague did well in those circumstances.

He is excellent in the HofC, but then he always was. It goes to show how little that means to the public at large.

[Michael Rutherford]

"We would not be riven with division which is apparent in the posts on this site."

What a bizarre thing to say! As well as the Portillo/Hague division, we can't forget how much we were split over Europe at the time too.

We are remarkably united as a party. Very few MPs are complaining about Tory policy and even the Cornerstone Group appear broadly on side. This site inevitably has a disproportionate number of people on the fringes of the party and that's why it may appear that there is a division. The Conservative Democracy polls show just how united behind David Cameron we are.

[Denis Cooper]

"Labour could have and did get away with almost anything in 97 / 98."

True, but I don't think that absolves the Tory party of its failure to regain its footing and turn itself into an effective opposition. If I as a mere layman could spot this in Brown's first budget, and think that it could have disastrous consequences, and realise that it ran counter to everything which Labour had been saying about the importance of developing "the savings culture", so could the official opposition.

[Jonathan Mackie]

Context Michael. Apart from people on the fringe of the party we weren't split on Europe during Hague's leadership.

[TomTom]

Perdix, yes, but for different reasons. No company would object to the tax being returned to its pension scheme or no further tax being charged. The reason that companies still won't reinstate pension plans is because it exposes them to too much risk. They'd rather not get involved.

Posted by: Mark Fulford

Actually no..........in the 1980s Companies were overfunding pension plans in the eyes of The Treasury under Lawson. They therefore instructed companies to reduce contributions which is why Employers took a Pensions Holiday.

The result was underfunded pension schemes once the actuarial assessments became more conservative and the pension black-hole was born.

It was after this that Brown did a Geoffrey Robinson sleight of hand and filched money from Pension Funds at the same time pushing Equitable Life off a cliff (Inquiry Report anyone ? Penrose Report - sorry Ruth Kelly, when will it be published ?)

http://www.emag.org.uk/

The introduction of IAS 26 at the same time and pension-splitting on divorce, and civil-partnership pension rules; made it all a bit much for poor fund administrators.

It was not just private sector pensions either - NHS employees have AVCs with Equitable Life as do HMCR staff - and local authority funds are invested in the Stock Market as with West Yorkshire Pension Fund.

This mess is compounded with the Endowment Disaster...........and the Pension Mortgage............in fact the catastrophe of pensions since 1980 is that Governents have tried to grab the Revenue and ditch the Outgoings

[TomTom]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3543549.stm

Some sections are still restricted so the Treasury is not liable for malfeasance and maladministration

[Michael McGowan]

Mark, thanks for your supportive comments. I have never doubted William Hague's prowess as a debater. Great that he made mincemeat out of Prescott but it does not resonate with the public, especially as Prescott is a buffoon. So much of a buffoon in fact that he didn't ask the obvious question about Brown's tax raid on pension funds i.e. if the Tories think it is such a bad thing, why won't they commit to reverse it?

Mark is surely right that no company is going to reopen a closed final salary scheme, simply because it is an unpredictable one-way bet on pensioners' life expectancy.

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Scotty,
I am not saying that Cameron & Osborne do not have an excellent relationship,far from it as they come from the same sort of background. What I did say and for someone like yourself who are one who contributes to this site and should observe ,is that the Party members who post in this site are divided and this also applies to Party membership which is dropping thoughout the country. These facts are undisputable and have as yet not been refuted by anyone.We should be trying to unite this Party and not carry on as has recently been the case. Political correctness and quotas are things for Socialists and not Conservatives. We should get back to our Centre Right position and not pander to the left leaning newspapers such as the Guardian.

[poll watcher]

I notice you do not answer if you are a UKIP supporter. Do you have anything positive to say about the party or are you here purely to attack it, we should know

[changetowin]

Well Done William, you should have stayed as Leader and the Party would be better if you had done so.We would not be riven with division which is apparent in the posts on this site.

What a ridiculous thing to say. William Hague is doing a fine job as Shadow Foreign Secretary, but he stood down as leader because he realised that he didn't have what it takes to lead a party to power. And David Cameron does.

Of course you get moaners on this site, but they are not representative of most party members! David Cameron is getting on with the job of transforming our party's culture and electoral performance. And he has the backing of the vast majority of members (e.g. Built to Last poll).

[Michael McGowan]

Poll watcher, given that you shelter behind anonymity (no doubt you work for Central Office), why should I answer your question? I have voted for the Conservative Party in three out of six general elections since I turned 18. So I would describe myself as a floating voter with centre-right leanings.....and deeply sceptical about the current direction of HM Opposition. You may not have noticed but there are several million people like me.

[michael mcgough]

"when George Osborne has no plans to reverse Brown's policy. What point is Hague trying to make? "
Indeed.Michael is right and and it is a bit late to start complaining now after years of silence on this issue.I recall asking Eleanor Laing before the 2001 election if the Tories would reverse the pension theft and she said yes but as we know with pre election promises they are like piecrust.

[Michael McGowan]

Nice to see that Changetowinbutwhatsthe point? has resurfaced!

In the wordl of Lewis Carroll inhbaited by Dave and his inner circle, the vast majority of voters back Dave and tractor production is up and all pigs are fed and ready to fly. It clearly wasn't just Mussolini who beleived his own propaganda.

[Scotty]

"is that the Party members who post in this site are divided and this also applies to Party membership which is dropping throughout the country. These facts are indisputable and have as yet not been refuted by anyone.We should be trying to unite this Party and not carry on as has recently been the case."
Cllr Mackie, I think your observations could have applied to the state of the conservative party at any time over the last 15 years. How many leaders have we had in that time?
How much has party membership dropped in that time?
How many times has the conservative party aired its divisions in the public glare?, John Major's premiership springs to mind.
There are regular conservative poster's on this site who support/oppose what David Cameron is doing, but there is more than a few poster's who are active in other parties and unsurprisingly don't particularly add to a genuine debate on the direction of the party.
Just speaking to my own conservative councillor today and the issues we discussed were school teacher shortages, closure of a local hospital unit and the upcoming Scottish elections. Got to say that we were united in our dismay at the performance of the Lab/Libdem coalition at Holyrood.

[changetowin]

Michael - we're all supposed to be in this together. I can back up everything I said if I have to. Why don't you aim your fire at something we're against - the Labour Party, environmental degredation, poverty, excessive regulation etc instead of attacking a fellow Conservative whose greatest crime is loyalty to the party leader?

[poll watcher]

Michael just be honest. Try. I know it comes hard from UKIP. Say it. "I support UKIP and am here to undermine the Tory party".

On topic - Nick Assinder is devastating about Labour MPs obscene hand gestures, Prescott's language and insults, and Gorbals Mick's Labour favouritism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6195104.stm

"Considering some of the words that have been deemed unparliamentary in the past - dishonourable, drunk, liar, hypocrite to name but a few - it came as a bit of a surprise to many MPs that Mr Martin will now allow them to call each other tossers whenever the mood takes them.

I dread to think where it will all end. And, it has to be said, it was not a pretty or enlightening sight...

It all kicked off when William Hague started his now traditional, mocking approach to Mr Prescott during question time - something that really gets under Prezza's nose.

He asked Mr Prescott how much Gordon Brown had "robbed" from people's pension funds and reminded him that the greatest pensions fraud was perpetrated by former Labour MP Robert Maxwell.

When the deputy prime minister could not answer, Mr Hague wondered why taxpayers were spending £2 million a year keeping him in his job.

This time, the deputy prime minister was ready with his answer.

And it basically amounted to telling Mr Hague "you are a tosser and so are all the tossers sitting alongside you"...

Speaker Martin - who recently tried to ban the Tory leader from asking questions about who the next prime minister might be - said nothing. Indeed, he smiled.

And that has given the green light to "tossers". "

Let's see if this makes the 6pm news

[Michael McGowan]

I don't support UKIP as it so happens. I have no idea who I will vote for at the next General Election, if indeed I will vote at all. Why is the Tory Party so special and why are you so worried about undermining it? Because you and your mates may not be able to get your paws on the spoils of office? Surely it can't be because you think the Conservative Party will be a noticeable improvement on Labour, whom they mainly seem to attack from the left these days if they dare to disagree with them at all?

[Denis Cooper]

TomTom, you're right that many employers had been taking pension holidays, and I seem to recall that Brown referred to that in his budget speech in 1997. Just as Derry Irvine said something similar about PEPs, that many of these "account holders", as I think he called them, had done very well, and therefore in his eyes they could be deprived of the remaining income tax exemption on dividends (although Lamont had already started that process). What they ignored is that markets can go down as well as up.

[changetowin]

Surely it can't be because you think the Conservative Party will be a noticeable improvement on Labour

Ok fine. Haven't been on this site for a while. I made the silly mistake of thinking that posters on ConservativeHome would actually believe the Conservative Party would be an improvement over the Labour Party!!!

[George Hinton]

No real contest, but like trying to stop a tank with a peashooter.

[Michael McGowan]

Whether the Conservative Party will be an improvement on the Labour Party depends on what it proposes to do in office. I am merely an observer. To date, the Tories seem mainly interested in bedding down Labour's failures. Whether they can do better over the next two years remains to be seen. And never underestimate the Tory Party's ability to say one thing and then do another in office.

[Jon White]

Cllr Bruce Mackie at 12.55:

"The Major led Gov was not all bad but he was let down badly by some MP's in our Party.They all forgot that he was the leader who got more people to vote Tory and many thought they were there forever. John was a superb leader and a very nice man to talk to."

JM may have been a very nice man to talk to, I never spoke to him so can't comment. He seemed a pretty 'decent bloke' to me.

BUT, he was NOT a superb leader. He inherited a party with over 370 seats and left it with less than 170. He sold out the UK on Mastricht. He was the Chancellor who took us into the ERM, and the PM who presided over Black Wednesday when we lost all credibility for economic competence - which we still have not regained despite Brown's disgusting handling of the economy. His leagacy? The National Lottery, surrender to the IRA, and a party decimated.
Finally, it was NOT a Major lead government. It was a Clark/Heseltine lead government, with a man promoted way beyond his ability as a figurehead at the top.

Sorry, I have nothing against JM as a person, but as a Tory leader he was an unmitigated disaster.

[Mark Wadsworth]

I do not understand this obsession with "tax raid on pension funds".

1. The Goblin King has done a tax raid on EVERYBODY.

2. Tax breaks for pension funds are a subsidy that have to be paid for by taxing somebody else more heavily. Individuals on the whole make better decisions if left to their own devices. Pension funds are hugely expensive to administer (i.e. profitable for actuaries, insurance companies, accountants etc). Basic rate taxpayers would be better off taking extra salary and just buying shares, investment property, putting it in a cash ISA and so on...

3. ... so why not just scrap tax breaks for pensions and cut taxes across the board? People (on the whole) aren't stupid. If 80% of us are wise enough to buy our own homes and pay off the mortgage, who says that 80% won't be wise enough to save up for retirement in whatever assets they like with total flexibility as to when they retire etc? The other 20% can;t afford to save either way and aren't in pension schemes.

[malcolm]

Pollwatcher, the person Chad Noble blogged about was 'Mick Mcgough' not Mick Mcgowan. I've met both Michael and Mick and can assure you that they are entirely different people.Sadly, neither however are loyal to the Cameron brand of conservative politics.

[Milton]

"Michael - we're all supposed to be in this together."

"And he has the backing of the vast majority of members (e.g. Built to Last poll)."

ChangeToWin is a CCHQer and I claim my five pounds.

Didn't someone say Fiona Melville the lackey in charge of keeping us members in check?

[poll watcher]

Malcolm, it was not I who raised that Mick. I accept it if he says he isn't ukip but he does say he is here to damage Cameron's Tory party. I just would like to see a positive comment once in a while. Constant complaints are wearing

[Tapestry]

Hague is a striker, maybe the best one in the team. But he'll never make a manager. Speaking talent and leadership quality should not be confused.

For evidence see Hague's dreadful piece in the Sunday Telelgraph this week, giving appallingly weak arguments for eliminating nation states in favour of corrupt international bodies.

Support these bodies, was the title, or count the bodies. It was classic Bildeberg nonsense, the secret group that Hague is a longstanding member of.

Hague is a combination of brilliance as a communicator, and debater with pusillanimous strategic sense. Thank God for Cameron. Hague's ability makes him a danger to the Party. He can never see the wood from the trees.

[changetowin]

Milton,

Why do you find it so shocking that a Conservative Party member could possibly passionately support the leadership of the Conservative Party!!!

Every time we've been given a chance to vote for change we have - electing Cameron on a "Change to win" platform and then endorsing modern, compassionate Conservatism in "Built to Last".

I repeat (as I have to every three months or so) that I've never worked for the party. And I happen to be a man! But the fact that people on this site think that someone who speaks up for the party must work for CCHQ shows what an anti-leadership bunch post on here!!!

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Well Changetowin & Jon White,It is difficult to answer all the points in one go but lets have a shot at it;-
Firstly Changetowin ,How can you say that David Cameron has shown that he has what it takes to be a leader to take this Party to victory. You will require to provide evidence of that statement otherwise it is not worth a row of beans.
Now to Jon White;-Yes, he did preside over a difficult time in the history of the Party but he did win the 92 election almost onnj his own by getting on his soap box and taking the debate to ordinary people. Yes,he was dreadfully let down over the ERM but it should be noted that the decision to go into the ERM was a unanimous decision of Parliament if my recollection of the events are correct.So you are saying that his legacy was the National Lottery.Yes, and what a tremendous legacy that has turned out to be.It was opposed by many in the Labour Party who have now embraced the Lottery and have used the proceeds fund things which would normally be provided by general taxation.If only you had been able to have talked to the man and seen his vision and quality then I would have taken your comments to have some value.There were a lot more MPs who should take their share of the blame for undermining the leadership of what was basically a caring man and not one who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Maybe that was the problem with a number of our MPs to name but a few,past and present!

[malcolm]

Hear hear Mr Mackie, whilst I disagreed with many of the things the Major government did ,people forget what it was like to lead a disunited party without a decent majority.

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Just read your post again Scotty and didn't realise that you were saying that there are others in here stirring up trouble for the leadership of the Party and the direction in which it is going, well not me. You can look me up on dundeecity.gov.uk if you ant to be bothered. I think my credentials speak for themselves.You can look me up Google as well if you wish.

[Tory Loyalist]

But the fact that people on this site think that someone who speaks up for the party must work for CCHQ shows what an anti-leadership bunch post on here!!!_____________________________________________________

You're not speaking up for the party changetolose, you're speaking up for Cameron, which is a very different thing.

We no longer live in the era of "l'etat c'est moi", or hadn't you noticed?

And now we learn that there are signs that the party and the country are finally beginning to suffer from "Cameron fatigue".

I daresay as chief cheerleader on this site, you may be partly responsible for this psychological phenomenon.

[James Maskell]

Id love to bundle in here and I will but in a while. I have three words for changetowin in the meantime:

You are wrong.

[Scotty]

Cllr Mackie, how goes the election campaign in Dundee?

Tory Loyalist "You're not speaking up for the party changetolose, you're speaking up for Cameron, which is a very different thing."????
Err, I think that changetowin is actually speaking for the silent majority within the party which loyally supports the democratically elected leader of their party. I take it the tag Tory Loyalist is your idea of irony?
I want the conservative party to do well at the next GE and I suspect that view is shared by the majority of party members, that is the ones which have loyally got behindt the various leaders elected by both MP's and then more recently by individual party members. I think that many were pretty angry over the years as they watched certain people devote their time to undermining the who ever happened to be leading their party rather than the leadership team on the government benches.

[Tory Loyalist]

Given the fame of the phrase "Beam me up Scotty" I would guess you could sell your claimed email address ([email protected]) for a large sum in ready cash.

But of course you just made that up, didn't you? so don't you have the nerve to call me a phoney. I doubt you're even a Scotsman.

When I joined the party the appalling Heath was in charge. I never felt any loyalty to him then or since, and I regarded it as my bounden duty to help others deliver my party out of his grasping hands.

Ditto Major and Cameron.

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Well Scotty,Thanks for the thoughts of the Campaign in Dundee. This STV nonsense is going to throw up some strange results.None to say to our real benefit. That's what the Lib Dems did for us. I am all for sticking up for the leader of the Party but that is to say if he sticks to what we all thought he was going to do. He has set about on some crusade of his own which to my mind is not in keeping with what I thought he believed in.After all he has not had a long time as an MP before being elevated to Leadership so maybe that is the reason.

[Jon White]

Cllr Bruce Mackie - The Conservatives were returned to power in 1992, of that there can be no doubt, it's history.

You claim that John Major won it for us. Well, he certainly was an assett, I can't deny. I would argue however, that it wasn't Major who won it, it was Kinnock who lost it.

Just as Major won the Tory crown because he wasn't Michael Heseltine, he maintained the Premiership (in name at least) because he wasn't Neil Kinnock. He never won a thing because of who he WAS.

He showed poor judgement by appointing his then friend Lamont to No. 11 (a job that he was clearly unqualified for), and then poor loyalty by ditching him after the ERM debacle, which he as Chancellor had got us into. He allowed the Europhile wets in Clark and Heseltine to lead him, and ended his reign with (to my knowledge) our worst ever election performance.

As for the National Lottery, I regard this as appalling regressive taxation. It was never meant to pay for things that taxation would otherwise have paid for, it was meant to pay for extras. Of course, it almost immediately was syphoned off to do exactly what you claim it does.

I note you make no comment on mine regarding his surrender to the IRA.

I agree that he was very badly let down by disloyalty in his own ranks. But the man displayed no vision, no leadership. He may have had some in private - you would know more than I - but our decline began under him and has only recently started to turn round. 16 plus years is a long time to leave a party in the doldrums.

[Dick Wishart]

I do wish people would stop saying that we are losing members all over the country, in my own constituency, where we are fighting a very strong and positive campaign for the Welsh Assembly we are picking up new members every week.
If those bloggers would do a bit of campaigning and less whingeing we would all be better off,stop moaning, get off your backsides, and actually DO something.

[Scotty]

" I regarded it as my bounden duty to help others deliver my party out of his grasping hands.

Ditto Major and Cameron."

With that attitude to loyalty and democracy in the conservative party you might not be suited to party politics.
And this attitude on a day when the Deputy prime minister put in such an embarrassing performance on behalf of a Labour government.

I am Scottish and a very loyal member of the conservative party.

[kingbongo]

nice to know things don'r change at ConHome, same bunch of of anti-tory party loyalists telling everyone how dreadful Cameron is. CH, the resting home of Wingnuts and UKIP's few remaining members.

What a wate of a potentially good blog; changetowin is the last of the group of people wh used to regularly be prepared to engage the Private Fraser set in debate but he's wasting his time.

Roll on the May elections when Cameron's disasterous performance and the useless efforts of those traitors actually willing to put work into securing a Conservative victory gives us hundreds of new councillors up and down the country.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Tonight's London Evening Standard thought Prescott got the better of Hague (3-2). Amazing, isn't it?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Excellent post, kingbongo.

[Anon]

Justin - if you dislike ConHome so much why do you post? Why don't you set your own website up?

[Cllr Bruce Mackie]

Jon ,I seem to recall reading somewhere that our current Leader may have worked for Norman Lamont. As far as the Lottery was concerned,it was set up just to pay for things that would otherwise not be done out of general taxation.Just as John Major said it would. It cannot be classed as a form of regressive taxation as all classes play the Lottery as do gamble on horses etc. It was the Labour Government who used the proceeds to pay for things which would otherwise would have come out of general taxation and nothing to do with the aims of the Lottery as set up by the Major Gov. Things in NI have moved on since then and thank goodness for that. Someone had to take a step forward in an effort to settle things.I am a Unionist so therefore I have a little sympathy for that side of the argument.

[Larry Green]

I think it's fair to say that Cameron, for whom I voted last year, is now facing a widening credibility gap.

For me the tipping point came with his ill-judged remarks against Israel, but to be honest I was already becoming disillusioned.

[changetowin]

Thanks for your post Kingbongo!

Some of us feel compelled to post on here, if only to show the journalists, members of the public and party members who read these posts that the majority of people who post on here are NOT representative of the Conservative Party. I read these posts for months before beginning to post and was always shocked by the pessimism and hatred shown towards the leadership. If you're an ordinary party member reading their bile and are fed up with it then you have two choices - stop reading this site (possibly a good plan!!!) or engage them in debate. Since they are supporting a course of action which lost us three elections in a row they're not that hard to beat! And you actually find out that few of them are Conservative supporters...

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Jonathan, because I'm a Conservative and this is ConservativeHome. Even Tim must get hacked off with the number of 'Conservatives' who use this site to attack David Cameron and have nothing constructive of positive to offer.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

* or

[James Maskell]

I think Prescott didnt do too badly. The first set of questions he didnt really answer which was really fine as he didnt look bad, instead batting them away. The second set he got flustered and fought back. The 100bn number seems far fetched though of course itll make headlines for the Sun. The response with the tosser was well made if lengthy.

Weve only voted twice and in the first instance we were voting for a person to lead the Party. The actual programme of policy didnt come till later.

The second vote was on the Built to Last pamphlet, which was vague to the point of being pointless. Many didnt receive ballots and turnout was so low that the result was of no importance. We havent referenced our policies to the document it was so bad!

As for whether I am representative of the Party, I cannot say. However, my Association agrees with me that the direction is going too far and is going swiftly towards Socialism.

[Scotty]

"Tonight's London Evening Standard thought Prescott got the better of Hague (3-2). Amazing, isn't it?"
Unbelievable Justin.
Did they miss him actually telling Hague to answer his own question or the fact that when Hague did so he then accused of failing to do so. Accusing the conservatives of opposing the Pension Bill just hours after it was published and then resorting to calling the whole party a bunch of "tosser's" Got to be one of the most cringe worthy performances at PMQ's in my memory.
The perception panel on the Daily Politics were not impressed either.
Seems that like Tony Blair's "clunking fist" rant some journalists thought it great whilst the majority of the public were turned off.

[John Irvine]

"Some of us feel compelled to post on here, if only to show the journalists, members of the public and party members who read these posts that the majority of people who post on here are NOT representative of the Conservative Party."

Don't get too big for your boots Mr Changetowin (and isn't it telling that you are so coy about revealing your name?)

It is the traditional Conservatives on this blog who are truly representative of the party grassroots, and as I daresay I have been a member for many more years than you have been around, I think I am rather better qualified to comment, don't you?

[Scotty]

"However, my Association agrees with me that the direction is going too far and is going swiftly towards Socialism."
James, I disagree. The party is heading from the right to the centre ground of politics which is where the majority of the electorate happen to be. It is a position which both Mrs Thatcher and Tony Blair successfully took their parties. But then they will both be remembered for successfully winning 3 GE's. They were both very astute politicians who took their parties with them (at times kicking and screaming) to the area on the political compass where the majority of voter's happen to reside.
You win elections by appealing to the majority rather than appeasing a few within your own party. David Cameron seems to have grasped that concept more successfully than our last few leader's, although to be fair I think IDS was not given the chance to do something similar.

[John Irvine]

Mrs Thatcher moved the party to the right, not the centre.

Little sign that the Cameron magic is working in Scotland, eh "Scotty"?

[houndtang]

Surely 2001 was our worst ever election performance? To gain one seat and lose over a million more votes after four years of an incompetent government was even worse than 1997 - that was 18 years worth of swing in one go.

[Scotty]

"Mrs Thatcher moved the party to the right, not the centre."
I think that everyone would agree that the majority of voter's were more right leaning back in the 80's and the economic climate was rather different in 79'.
But if you are trying to tell me that the majority of voters are now pitched anywhere near that point in the political compass you need to get out more on the doorsteps of area's where we have no MP's.
I would say you still don't get why the Libdems have over 60 MP's in Parliament and UKIP has none. Many of those LibDems MP's now sit in Scottish constituencies which used to be Tory heartlands.

"Little sign that the Cameron magic is working in Scotland, eh "Scotty"?"
Lucky for me I have a fantastic local constituency party which is well motivated and organised. I was delighted that David Cameron won the leadership election and see him as the most voter friendly leader we have had leading the Westminster party since 97'.

[Annabel Herriott]

What a load of miseries! our constituency has picked up over 80 new members in the last few weeks.
I agree it must be hard to venture outside the comfort zone where we lost 3 elections in a row.
Perhaps the brain cells start atrophying after age 60 or so in some folk.
But out there, in the real world, folk are listening to Tories again. I speak as a YC from the 1950s, and I sure can move with the times. Why cant you lot? Of course, silly me, you are not conservatives at all, you just like stirring things up a little.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Good post, Annabel. As a constituency Chairman in a very challenging seat (Tottenham), I can reveal that our membership is at a record high. In 1997, people hated us. In 2001, people just ignored us. In 2005, we made a tiny amount of progress. Now, under Dave's leadership, people are beginning to listen to us take us seriously again.

[John Irvine]

Justin Hinchcliffe - "As a constituency Chairman"

God help us!

Things must be desperate in Tottenham.

[Scotty]

John Irvine, if you ever get bored attacking people who are enthusiastic activists in the present conservative party, please feel free to have ago at the government or Libdems. Your tory bashing will end up making them feel redundant.

[Graham D'Amiral]

Good to see Hague getting the better of prescott.

There are a few people on here who are very negative about not just Cameron but just about everything the conservative party does these days. I have to say when I talk to members both in my own association and from around the country that sort of view isn't all that common.

I think the facts speak for themselves since David cameron was elected, the polls show that those people who previously were not inclined to vote conservative are now far more to do so and in the first major electoral test of his leadership the council elections in May we polled 40% of the vote and gained hundreds of seats.

As a Councillor in Bexley where David Cameron visited during the campaign, we gained 24 seats in those elections and all but wiped out the labour group, I can't say I think having David Cameron as leader exactly hurt our campaign.

[James Maskell]

Its a pretty ridiculous argument that if we disagree with the Tory lines or with Cameron, we cannot be Conservatives and should leave the Party, or that because we post on here criticising Cameron, we dont criticise the Government. The last time I looked this site was about the Conservatives, not the Government.

With the Conservative Party being such a broad church, how can you argue that Conservatives who disagree are just stirring? A Conservative in for the form of Cameron is as much a Conservative as someone on the far right. Its a pathetic argument that doesnt hold water.

In fact the Cameron fans use the same three arguments in rotation and shows a distinct lack of intelligence to widen their arguments. changetowin is an example of that sort of debating style.

[Katy Lindsay]

Pondering on the subject of discord in our ranks, which I feel is greatly overplayed by some, I offer herewith the thought that Conservativehome acts as our very own Truth and Reconciliation process. Like going to see a counsellor, we will emerge happy, healthy and reconciled after sharing our deep inner feelings with an audience that can't tell us to shut up - at least not until we've finished our sentence.

[Scotty]

"In fact the Cameron fans use the same three arguments in rotation and shows a distinct lack of intelligence to widen their arguments."
James, accusing other conservatives of lacking intelligence does not enhance debate. At least Prescott has the excuse of being a Labour politician when he called the opposition a bunch of "tosser's".

[Torygirl]

Most of my Tory friends are very disappointed and upset with Cameron. Even our Chairman regrets voting for him. We were conned.

[James Maskell]

Scotty, if you read or heard what Prescott had to say you'd know why he used that term.

It doesnt enhance debate. Its an observation.

[Scotty]

James I watched PMQ's in full yesterday and I stand by my observations of your comments.

[Michael McGowan]

If David Cameron were offering a liberal progressive centre-right alternative to authoritarian collectivist mediocrity, I would feel much more enthusiastic about him. So far he isn't - quite the opposite in fact - so I don't. He will probably pick up some seats at the next election but I would be astonished if he won it outright. It is then quite conceivable that the left wing of the Tory Party, led by Cameron and friends, will seek to merge with the Lib Dems on a high-tax, nannyish anti-American pro-EU platform.

[Scotty]

"It is then quite conceivable that the left wing of the Tory Party, led by Cameron and friends, will seek to merge with the Lib Dems on a high-tax, nannyish anti-American pro-EU platform."
Don't think that scenario has any merit other than being a cherished hope of certain UKIP members.

[Michael McGowan]

We will see, Scotty, we will see. Nothing would surprise me. Remember the Tory Party's unofficial motto: power at any price - the last ten years have surely shown even you how ill-equipped it is to handle the politics of opposition.

[Derek Buxton]

All Cameron has promised is more socialist rubbish. His only response is "we must spend more money" just like his best friend Blair. I always voted Conservative even when holding my nose, ( the disastrous Heath for example. But no longer. Cameron misses a long standing meeting with the CBI to do a day trip to Basra, and having returned does he know what is happening there. Very doubtful. He will destroy whatever remains of the Conservative Party. Is he, I wonder a puppet run by Clarke, Patten etc.

[Tory Loyalist]

Strange how "Scotty" suddenly came from nowhere to hit the ground running on this forum. Maybe not so strange, assuming this obvious CCHQ plant has had plenty of previous practice posting under some other ID.

After all, why would a Cameron loyalist feel the need to use a pseudonym, unless it is to conceal sockpuppetry?

One thing Scotty doesn't seem to be fully clued up about is the Scots Tory hierarchy's notable lack of enthusiasm for his hero. It's been commented on in the press, and as one or two of them are old friends of mine I know it's true.

Maybe he'd like to reveal the name of his constituency and I'll find out whether it's really as successful as he claims?