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A powerful article by Cameron. Let's hope it gets reported properly outside London.

At last some sanity. There need to be definite boundaries in society, without them you produce anarchy which is what the friend of Mr. ap Rhys Pryce stated was already amongst us and I heartily agree with him, unfortunately.

I think we are the laughing stock of the world at the moment with our attitude to criminals, and it is a view that I have heard repeated over and over again!

I am delighted that Mr. Cameron has tackled this difficult subject, difficult because of the mess that SOME misguided people have got us into.

Very much assured to read this. Perhaps he's had extra tuition from David Davies?

Unequivocal and uncontestable. Good clear statements by DC. Hope and expect more like this in weeks and months to come,

Matt

Hurrah. If anyone "right wing" Tory wrote this changetowin and justin hinchcliffe would be on the attack. Nice to see a clear change in emphasis and content from the leader.

"And it will surprise no-one to learn that both Carty and Brown grew up in homes without fathers. I hope the men who left those boys’ mothers to bring them up alone are reflecting on their own responsibility this week."

Big assumption there by Dave - how does he know the fathers abandoned the children? They could be some of the thousands of fathers torn from their children by a justice system which is reluctant to enforce visitation rights when mothers refuse access... I hope Bob Geldof puts him right on that one.

Indeed. This is more in line with the sort of stuff I expected from Cameron. His emphasis on stable families as the real source of social order is of a piece with his more general positive attitude towards marriage, including his idea of tax cuts for married people. Now if he would only revisit his loopy stance on gay marriage....

I understand that Carty's dad sired six children by five mothers. I think that Cameron would have done his research before coming out with that line.

I understand that Carty's dad sired six children by five mothers. I think that Cameron would have done his research before coming out with that line.

A slight improvement on Cameron's usual hoodie-hugging wetness, but I suppose some adviser has told Dave he was totally out of step with the rest of humanity.

Am I alone in thinking that these two pieces of evil scum would be vastly improved by a pair of nooses round their scrawny necks?

That's one piece of good advice we won't be hearing from Cameron.

As a Cameron sceptic, it's only fair to give credit where it is due. This is very sensible stuff. Let's hope we more along these lines, in the future, and less of the political correctness.

Great article, any chance of the Mail picking this up from their sister paper and running it tomorrow?

His message is essentially the same as the 'hug a hoodie' stuff but he has refined his language just enough to avoid any selective quotes being misused by Labour or UKIP idiots. Great to see commitments to more prisons, more discipline in schools, more arrests and support for marriage. Although not policies these show that we really are going in the right direction.

"His message is essentially the same as the 'hug a hoodie' stuff but he has refined his language just enough to avoid any selective quotes being misused by Labour or UKIP idiots"

Excuse me but the only idiots in the frame were Cameron and his speechwriters.

Maybe he's been listening to the voice of the grassroots on CH. Well it's a step in the right direction, I suppose.

Maybe Cameron would be so bold as to suggest locking up the 250,000 repeat offenders responsible for the majority of crimes committed in this country?

V encouraging and some sense on the criminal justice system and absent fathers. Welcome comments on empowering schools to discipline. While I am favour of capital punishment (with tough safeguards to prevent miscarriages of justice) for murder, and Mr Cameron isn't, this to me is a welcome move in the right direction (no pun intended). Yes, let's restore the culture of punishment - but with tough unpleasant punishments that deter.

As he implies, the main purpose of the prison and justice systems must be to punish but also to protect society by locking away those that would be a danger to others. (Are there too many people in prison for non-violent crimes, for whom alternative punishments would be better?). If this means DC is to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime (i.e. family break-up and the decline of marriage and of traditional values of right and wrong, drug abuse etc), then we might start convincing law-abiding people whose quality of life is blighted by crime and anti-social behaviour that we are for them.

Mr Cameron said, “As I have said repeatedly, no amount of poverty or deprivation can excuse crime: the blame belongs to the criminal.” Excellent!

I hope that when we return to power, one of the first things to do, if Nulab has not seen fit to start, is a prison building programme. Not just "prison" but equally importantly, "hospital prison" where people with mental health problems, drug addiction etc can be properly cared for in a secure environment, where some crackpot pyche can not let them out to kill and maim because their illness is out of control. Care in the community does not work because it is too expensive to do it in the current Governments thinking/budget.

Glad to hear the Comments by the Leader on this subject.. Let's hope that this is the start of the sort of thing we expect of a Tory Leader.

I'll just concur with Cllr Mackie and the other positive comments above.

If Cllr Mackie and others had actually read Cameron's speeches rather than believe Labour spin they would not have been surprised by anything he said in article.

Ah yes Ted. You mean like he never said "Hug a Hoodie". He actually said we should "show a lot more love" to hoodies. So different.

So let's get it right.

And let's get something else right.

Cameron is totally devoid of imagination or originality. He merely parrots whatever is put in front of him by his scriptwriters, so if somebody accidentally handed him a speech originally given by Enoch Powell or Ronald Bell that's what he would deliver.

He is a kind of empty "construct man".

Now I don't expect Ted to agree with my opinion of Cameron, which has plummetted since I voted against him last year.

But let's all agree on one thing.

He doesn't write his own speeches so what we are reading is actually someone else's opinion.

A very promising speech by Mr Cameron.

If he can combine common sense old fashioned Conservative opinion like this with his environmental and other modernising ideas, he will be much more successful than sticking to just one approach of the other.

Probably a majority of people reading about this crime thought "that these two pieces of evil scum would be vastly improved by a pair of nooses round their scrawny necks?", an our leader should reflect that when talking about crime.

No mention of the fact that these muggers were - as usual - black.

Something Mr Cameron prefers not to mention?

While this article by Cameron is indeed a welcome change from his usual stuff we must not allow ourselves to get carried away. One decent article doesn't change everything else that Cameron has said and done.

Fabulous article

John Irvine (06:52) picks up on a point I made last week about David Cameron on the Editors video clip "Conservative Approach to Fighting Poverty". During that speech he looked almost wooden at some points, and this was an issue alledgy close to his heart. There was an interesting article in the Times this morning that picks up on this point that Cameron is running close to picking up an all style no substance tag that may prove very difficult to shift.

Cameron:
"There is only so much that Government can do to repair our society’s moral fabric. We can – and should – ensure that schools have more power to discipline pupils who misbehave. We can – and should – remove financial penalties against marriage in the tax and benefits system. But ultimately it is society, not the state, which transmits moral messages to young people."

This is true, but the State does send powerful moral messages through its tax and benefits system. Currently the message is very anti-cohabiting, which includes marriage, and anti-work, since welfare benefits are withdrawn if you cohabit or work. There should be no benefits penalty for cohabitation; marriage should be positively rewarded in the tax system, and there should be far far less "means testing", ie withdrawal of benefits to anyone who betters themselves. Conversely welfare should be time-limited, as now in the USA, and people should not be paid to have children as a means to greater welfare.

Cameron:
"They were both prolific robbers – the police suspect they were responsible for as many as 150 muggings in the previous seven months, sometimes as many as 15 a day."

This is a terrible indictment of the police and the criminal justice system. These murderers were facilitated in building up to murder by the lack of intervention at an earlier stage. The figures given seem simply incredible. As Cameron said, Britain needs far more prison places and willingness to use them. Any street robbery should be punished by a significant jail term, violent street robbery by years in jail. A soft justice system might work with a soft population. We don't have a soft population and potential criminals are not deterred by soft measures.

A very nicely balanced article, attaching blame not just the two despicable people who committed the attack, but also to society and a criminal justice system that allows such people to get into the position whereby they feel unable to fear the consequences of their actions.

I agree with Ted up there at 2.43am. Nothing new from Cameron, really. But then, in this strange new world of British politics, Labour and their creeping media friends aren't going to spin about Cameron being a ravaging right-winger on law and order, are they ...?

Credit where credit is due: an excellent article by David Cameron. But there is a long way to go: wasn't it the Tories who introduced the mandatory early release scheme which means that these thugs will be back on the streets terrorising their neighbours after they have served half their sentences?

Simon Newman's comment makes me think that the cultural Marxists who rule us probably relish violent crime. After all, it takes the class war to the hated white middle and working classes and it is often an extremely brutal form of Polly Toynbeeesque wealth redistribution. Given that the Guardian-reading classes have consistently condoned the economic devastation inflicted on his country by Robert Mugabe, why on earth would they want to condemn Carty and Brown for robbing and stabbing their way around North-West London?

Blimey - two things in one day I like from Cameron - might have to not cancel my standing order after all!

The society we live in has come about after 10 years of NuLab government.
But, more deeply the result of socialist dogma and policy for generations. The two individulas should have learnt morals and ethics from their teachers, only teachers don't do that, not if the school is near a sink estate, inner london borough or under Labour control.
The malaise in our society goes very deep, and the bulk of the blame can be laid at the door of Labour with its policies of envy and jealousy that has seen the imposition of dogma rather than need.
It is a message that needs to be continually rammed home, and NuLab must be told that after 10 years of government they cannot lay the blame at Margaret's door.

Yes, George, But let us not forget that the Tories have collaborated with the left's cultural agenda for decades.....including throughout the Thstcher era, as well of course as under Heath and MacMillan.

Michael McGowan:
"Simon Newman's comment makes me think that the cultural Marxists who rule us probably relish violent crime. After all, it takes the class war to the hated white middle and working classes."

I think there's an element of truth in that. The crux of the cultural Marxist analysis is that people like Carty and Brown are not responsible for their actions, and must not be held responsible. Rather, they are acting out of frustration at the system that oppresses them, so on the C-M view the middle-class white victim of the actual crime becomes the perpetrator in a larger perspective. In modern US-derived CM race trumps sex for victim status, so the interests of white female victims are subordinated to those of male non-white perpetrators, as in the OJ Simpson case (which outraged some genuine feminists like Tammy Bruce). Race may trump sexual orientation also but I'm not aware of any high-profile cases on this.
The C-M analysis glosses over the fact that per capita, non-whites are much more likely to be the victims of non-white perpetrators than are whites; black on black violence is also blamed on white racism. In the face of this measures like the Met's Operation Trident can be controversial, fortunately its proven effectiveness, benefit to and popularity with the black community in London, has muted criticism.

George Hinton:
"The two individulas should have learnt morals and ethics from their teachers, only teachers don't do that, not if the school is near a sink estate, inner london borough or under Labour control."

The situation is actually far far worse than that. Highly intelligent upper-middle-class students attending leafy suburban schools aren't receiving a grounding in morals and ethics either. The other day I was discussing coursework with one of my best and brightest students, very middle-class, who might have gone to Oxford. I said something about the relevance of free speech to her essay, as guaranteed in the ECHR and 1998 Human Rights Act. She told me that she'd never heard of 'free speech' before the Danish cartoons imbroglio last year, didn't like the idea, and seemed to think it was an anti-Muslim conspiracy invented in 2005.

It's an interesting note that both the men's fathers were absent from their lives and turned out the way they did. I know many who haven't seen their fathers & turned out fine so I don't think this is a sole issue. However, at least with girls who lose their father they still have a mother whereas the boys have no role model - or at least it is very hard to find one. Thus the induction into gangs since it is a place of masculine acceptance, thus the trouble begins. I don't know how to remedy this aside from break up gangs and/or somehow make fathers responsible - but how? Are there examples in the media that we can follow?

It's always black boys between 15-20. These boys are laughing at middle class white idiots like yourselves for being too cowardly to even point this out, let alone deal with the problem. Don't you understand that their whole stupid culture is about respect for strength and power - if you show them strength these cowardly scum will comply. Zero tolerance. Any violent attack should be met with extreme prejudice. They should be chained together in the high street to perform menial cleaning tasks whilst wearing a ridiculous pink outfit. Losing face in front of their peers is what they fear the most. There's no way they will risk this. Cheaper than prison, more effective.

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