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This is dreadful news for the Conservative party showing how useless Cameron is. We should have at least a 20 point lead in the polls. The lead might be up, but it's not good enough. If Davis was in charge we'd be leading by 50 points now - the British people want a proper right wing party that will sort out all the foreigners.

Anyway, it's all a matter of time - Cameron's bubble will soon burst and Brown will win the next election, which is great news.

All I can say is that I have read some rubbish on this site before but Monday Clubber`s latest contribution really is the worse.
I am sure theses right-wingers stay awake at night thinking up new ways they can talk down the Conservative Party and David Cameron.

Monday Clubber - Stop it! I like political satire as much as the next man but your impression of a totally mad right winger who has lost touch with reality is too much for a Sunday morning. :-)

It doesn't do the anti Cameron faction any good when they throw figures round like a 20 point lead. They don't seem to realise the hatred felt by many people towards the party pre Cameron. The poll is encouraging. Who would ever have thought we would have a lead on being trusted with the NHS.

Let's try and ignore Mondaty Clubber's constant negativity. Today's contribution is just nonsense. He succeeds when he distorts our conversations. I suspect he is a troll and I will try and ban him from making any more comments.

As the media, with the exception of the BBC, has decided to effectively censor this weekend's party conference of the UKIP and the speech by its new leader Nigel Farage MEP, I have placed the video of Farage's attack on the Prime Minister at the end of the UK's EU Presidency on my Tory blog..

This brief and arbitrarily shortened assault is a lesson in both opposition and democracy which the present Conservative leadership should watch with shame.

Find it from this link:


The permanent link can be found from today's posting on:


Martin: I appreciate the link but please put links like this on the front page - this thread is about the ICM opinion poll.

We must remember though, that this is 11% before Brown's leadership contest and potential honeymoon period as Labour leader and PM. I would assume that the gap will narrow during that period.

Yet again the issue of troops in Iraq crops up; I hope that conservative support of the war (admittedly based on Blair's lies, without which the public would never have supported this attack on a sovereign nation) does not prevent a Tory administration from doing the right thing and bringing our armed forces home.

Yet more vindication for Dave's approach so far, well done that man.

I think Chris makes a good point. The British public will want to give Brown a chance and this is likely to be reflected in a poll boost for maybe as much as a year. Which is why I reckon Blair being forced out early will work out well in the long term for us as by the time we get to the next election Brown will have had his chance.

Brown may have favoured an early election to secure a mandate but the state of Labours finances kind of rules that out as a possibility.

In looking at the polls over the past couple of months it seems that although there is a clear positive trend it's not certain as to whether it is anti-Blair/Labour or Pro-Cameron/Tory. But a good poll is always welcome and it seems the public likes the way the party was positioned last week rather more than the Sun did.

The local election results this year were good and if they are as good next year, then I think we will be in very good shape for the next GE. Meanwhile, another bad result for Labour will cause them no end of problems, especially in the middle of their protracted leadership hustings.

"the British people want a proper right wing party that will sort out all the foreigners."

As far as I am concerned there are still jobs that need to be done and if anyone from abroad want to come here Monday Clubber and do thos jobs then I welcome them.

Thre is not enough thought being given to how to prevent the government from further involvement in postal vote fraud, and other electoral cheating. It is just as easy to commit fraud as at the last GE, which process over 4 million postal votes, many in the most dubious circumstances.

And now the count does not have to be done immediately but can be delayed. That opens up more opportunity to tamper. The topic of voting fraud has been erased from the media, but it has not been dealt with.

The BNP claim that there are discrepancies recorded between the number of voters arriving at polling stations, and the number of votes being cast. We might not care about the BNP, but if these prcatices are being used against the BNP, they can be used against anyone.

A word of caution on this ICM poll. Sampling took place during the latter stages of and immediately after the conference, when any warm afterglow of the Cameron speech and extensive media coverage will have been at its height.

Last weeks Times/Populus was delayed until this week to avoid any undue conference bounce. It would be safer to await the next few polls to assess the post conference state of the parties.

The Lib-Dem content still retains a considerable element of the floating voter, who is not seduced by Nu-Lab and yet to make a decision re "Dave".
What is quite clear, is that the voters are not being offered clear cut options.
A referendum on Europe is what all want. A choice between tax and spend Gordon, and more stealth taxes, or tax cutting and control of public spending, which should be the tory option, is not on the table.
The fact that all parties are trying to sieze the central ground, refraining from controversial policies has made politics boring and pretty well irrevelant to many.

Monday Clubber's apparent post at 9.35 is propbably a hoax. If you click his name, it is not his usual email address.

If any of those who criticise the posting here by "Monday Clubber" weren't suspicious of its content they ought to have been. Cameroons to a man they've been shown as stupid.

They only had to do what I did - CHECK THE LINK ON THE MESSAGE and it gives a totally and obviously false e-mail address and one that is different to the one held on the Blog's computer.

This was a MALICIOUS POSTING and I am astonished that the Editor did not spot this.

Has the Editor had any comment direct from "Monday Clubber"and what reply did he give? His posted comment is outrageous and to ban someone for a false posting is worse. Those of us giving our names and those using true e-mail addresses need protection from such (Central Office inspired?) thuggery.

All parties can expect a bounce at conference time (even the Quiet Man got one in 2003). At a guess, I would expect pollls by the end of the month to be putting the Conservatives c.3% ahead, on average.

The ICM poll is merely restoring the polls to the pre-conference situation. ICM alone would make the Tories just the biggest party but with no majority. The Poll of Polls would not even do that..

Matthew d'Ancona in the S Telegraph is lukewarm - to say the least. In general the press are anti-Cameron.

Monday Clubber has said that its a spoof. Editor, please check the IP to confirm whether it was a post by Monday Clubbers IP or whether its someone saying they are Monday Clubber. Monday Clubber says that he has been unable to post on this thread.

Weve been here before with Chad Noble...

The poll finding on tax cuts and stability is very interesting.

As we know, a tax cut of £10-20bn (the likely Forsyth recommendation) would not actually undermine stability. Economically, George knows that Bank independence and the international capital market would keep us on an even keel.

But politically of course, he and Dave think it would make voters think we were going back to 15% mortgage rates.

This poll suggests voters are more sophisticated than that.

Still all to play for.

Opinion Polls are notoriously unreliable, even the pollsters themselves admit large margins of error - it is easy to react to each opinion poll that comes out as if it is some kind of dramatic change but even by their own margins of error 38% amounts to 35-41% and 32% amounts to 29-35% and as for the Liberal Democrats it could be 17-23% and no one actually knows if say somehow imminently polls could open and people actually vote whether people would actually do what they said that they would have done anyway.

The Conservative Party has been doing a lot better than at this stage in previous parliaments but both of those were before Labour's difficulties over the war in Iraq which are still having an impact, certainly boundary changes and some strengthening of support for the Conservative Party are likely to lead to modest but appreciable gains in support and seats at the next General Election by the Conservative Party although Labour will probably make up the difference with recovery of support from the Liberal Democrats and from improved turnout - a hung parliament looks improbable.

As to the issue of the poll, this is pretty expected. Its post-Conference bounce. Give it till Christmas to see what the real trend is.

CHECK THE LINK ON THE MESSAGE and it gives a totally and obviously false e-mail address and one that is different to the one held on the Blog's computer.
Even if it were correct that wouldn't neccessarily mean anything, if someone posted as George W. Bush and gave the White House email address it wouldn't mean they were George W. Bush but it would still be the correct email address, as for people posting under their own names - unless they are using a fixed IP address and people know that that person has that address from personal knowledge (and of course even that doesn't take into account possible falsification of IP address) then how could anyone be sure of who they said they were other than their ISP.

Thats why some of us are requesting that Tim check the IP number. Monday Clubber has said that he tried to post on this thread at about 10.30, but the posts were deleted and his IP banned.

Tim, just this once, please check the IP..

Penfold @ 12.01 makes a very good point:
" A choice between tax and spend, Gordon, and more stealth taxes, or tax cutting and control of public spending, which should be the tory option, is not on the table".
The question is: will any or all of the above items in the latter scenario be on the table before next May's elections, since I believe the reports from the policy groups are not due in draft form until June and in final form in about a year's time?
Blair might be very close to going by then, but could still be Nulab's most powerful apologist; we will need more than blank ammunition to fight those elections with.

Blair may well leave office in June next year, but dont believe for one second that Blair will remove himself completely from the job. I am willing to bet good hard cash that Blair will try to run things after he officially resigns. Hes not secured his legacy...well, not a positive legacy!

I found the press, particularly the BBC and Sky, out to get us during the conference....the fact that we have bounced surprises me.

Blair may well leave office in June next year, but dont believe for one second that Blair will remove himself completely from the job. I am willing to bet good hard cash that Blair will try to run things after he officially resigns.
I think he realises that once he's out he's out, he steps down as leader he loses some power, he steps down as Prime Minister he's just another MP albeit one who still has a number of allies in the cabinet and what he says will still get listened to by the new leader, he said he would go fully from the government when he left as Prime Minister and I don't see any reason to doubt this although I wouldn't be surprised if Gordon Brown tried to persuade him to stay on in the cabinet until the next General Election - about all that is really known is that he is going as Prime Minister by the time of the party conferences and that by that time a new leader will be elected, he hasn't yet outlined when he will go as labour leader or whether there will be an interval between the new leader being elected and Tony Blair standing down as Prime Minister, he might want to avoid precipitating a summer leadership election, presumably equally he doesn't want a leadership election occuring just before or during the Local Elections and yet he might feel that the ideal situation would be for the new leader to become Prime Minister just before the Party Conference so as to maximise publicity and also mean that a new Prime Minister would have a fresh slate to some extent leaving Tony Blair free to tie up loose ends at the end of the session, so I suppose it is possible that he would announce in the New Year that he was standing down as leader to allow a new leader to be elected in March or April and lead Labour in the Local Elections or that he might announce he was standing down as leader when going into the Local Elections and hope to get a boost for Labour and go out as leader on a high, if he leaves it until after the actual leadership election will be at a time when many will be away on holiday. As he would clearly be outgoing (which is why the grumbles over when he is going have died down because it is known he is going soon anyway) he could get away with being Prime Minister for 4 or 5 months after a new leader was elected so long as he went within his announced timescale and made it clear he was doing so.

After that either he will go on a world tour or he will turn up regularily as a backbencher in House of Commons debates until the General Election before retiring at the General Election.

What may well cause controversy is John Prescott who has just reaffirmed that he is only going as Deputy Leader when Tony Blair goes as Prime Minister - many people don't realise this but this means the elections for Deputy Leader and Leader being on seperate days which was something that those demanding that John Prescott stand down as Deputy Leader at the same time as Tony Blair stood down as leader were objecting to - some when Tony Blair does step down as leader there could well be a major wrangle with John Prescott clarifying what he had said.

Eugene - ".the fact that we have bounced surprises me". This "bounce" post conferences has been a feature of opinion polling for as long as I can remember the polls. All that has happened is that ICM's pro-Labour bounce has gone bu that the Tory position is virtually the same as pre-conference season. No progress at all.

Conservatives should be agitated that among all the other important things that didn't get a mention were the treatment of our pensioners and soldiers which are scandalous. How can any Tory sleep soundly with those two forgotten by the narcissistic Cameroons.

As Ian Coweie wrote in yesterday's Telegraph - - -
"- - - victims of the company pension scandal are dying while they and their families wait for the State – which helped strip these schemes by stealth – to offer any form of help more substantial than saccharine sympathy. Brave boys are sacrificing their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan to fight for a country which pays them less than the minimum wage – or what they could receive as an MP's "researcher".

So it was a pity, to say the least, that so few of our Parliamentary representatives had anything to say on matters of importance. Instead, for the most part, we were subjected to relentless "mood music" and I cannot have been the only one to suspect that, these days, even politicians are bored with politics." - - -
"I could go on but had probably better not, other than to observe that there was a time when at least one political party could be relied upon to stand up for pensioners and the Armed Forces.

You might have thought that even the most uninspired Opposition in living memory could not miss with ammunition like that. But on the evidence of last week, you would be wrong."

Our soldiers did get extensively mentioned in speeches, both by Liam Fox and by David Cameron.

Monday Clubber has said that its a spoof.

It may well have been. The unfortunate thing is that the only give-away is the numbers. If you scale down the 20pt/50pt figures by say a factor of two, you get just what Monday Clubber usually says.

Monday Clubber has said that he tried to post on this thread at about 10.30, but the posts were deleted and his IP banned.

Which is interesting, given that if Tim had banned a particular IP address or subnet range, presumably it would be that of the offending post. Of course, I suspect ISP subnet masks are fairly wide, and it is statistically possible that any spoofer might have been on the same ISP...

Back on-topic, I'm pleased of course to see us pulling out again in the polls. Yes, I'd like to see us further out, who wouldn't? But, far from being concerned about the lack of public policy detail at this point, I rather liked the idea at Conference that we were painting a picture (as well as a community centre!) - of life in Britain under the next Conservative government. I think that this is something that we failed to do convincingly in the last parliament. We had lots of policy, some popular, some not, but no substantial over-arching narrative. I think we're right to take the time to develop one now.

So yes, we have a small post-conference bounce. And it's something we can all help build on - I was out all day yesterday delivering local newsletters showing that out commitment to local politics delivering solutions to peoples' problems is real. Next weekend, I'm out with other members in my home town to oppose Brown's NHS cuts.

So if Monday Clubber (real or imagined, what's the difference?), Christina and others decide they want to do something useful to help, instead of perhaps just "wanting the old policies back", they would be well-advised to do the same.

...and Betfair's most seats market says:

Con 1.79
Lab 2.32

Basically unchanged from 2 months back. Tory odds improved significantly from the point of Cameron's election until then, and have probably peaked for the moment (as Labour's 30% core vote is still there).

Editor - This is an outrage. You've LEFT UP the previous provocative spoof message put up in Monday Clubber's name but banned HIM for that message and put up a disgraceful message yourself.

The dimmest nitwit - even Richard Carey - could have seen it was bogus (an e-mail address like "[email protected]" !!!) but you use a bogus message to exercise censorship.

This would be grist to the mill of any newspaper diarist.


And Richard Carey - I don't "want the old policies back" That's a near libel! I've listed here progressive CONSERVATIVE policies I would like but RC: chooses to ignore that.

I want tax-cuts for those on near benefit level
I want a state funded insurance scheme to get the politics out of the NHS
I want proper defences for our country
I want education to stop being politically correct, to allow selection and not to shun the possibility of failure. Proper standards with proper discipline

And MORE - - -

No Cameroon has ANY policies at all about anything.

The Editor's decision is final on bans. See the comments policy. I have received a steady number of complaints about Monday Clubber and acted today against him. The endless repetition of the same points is very tedious and I think he stopped adding value to the site some time ago. Many suspect he is a troll. IF today's 0935 post was a spoof I am sorry that this was the reason he was banned but he could easily have been banned sometime ago. Given that Monday Clubber was hiding behind anonymity I have hardly hurt his reputation.


Sorry for posting off topic, I have noted your advice about the front page.

How about giving a permanent link to Teetering Tories blog, there is much in the archives on the opinion polls during the party leadership of IDS and Michael Howard?

The first post in the summer of 2003 was as follows:
Iain Duncan Smith's Prague Speech

This blog, created by those responsible for UKIP Uncovered and Ironies, will explore in detail the critical question for Eurorealists of whether or not the Tories, under the leadership of IDS, can be trusted to disregard the strong euro-federalist instincts of many within their party, and restore sovereignty to the Westminster Parliament and its democratic accountability to the people of the United Kingdom.

In my view the answer to that question remains in the negative, indeed the Prague speech may well have done for IDS.

The polls as dutifully linked and commented upon on-


may well fluctuate but as long as the Conservative Party refuses to acknowledge the EU problem, IMO they will find it impossible to ever again form a government.

As Google's chief tried to point out at your conference, nowadays the truth will out. New technologies such as YouTube provide a formidable political weapon as I tried to show this morning. Adam B. on Sky News this morning interviewing the SNP leader rather than Nigel Farage should be warned, such tricks will become transparent and counterproductive!

Last bit of advice for your party this Sunday, be nicer to Boris, he would make a formidable leader of the English Democrats!

The dimmest nitwit - even Richard Carey

I'm arrogant enough to believe that you are in a minority in thinking that! And while you're at it, I can place posts under "[email protected]" too. Unfortunately an email address proves very little, while server logs etc. usually contain IP addresses, which are just slightly harder to spoof.

While you're rude enough to condemn me as a dim nit-wit (unlike the late Monday Clubber, you can at least malign me under my own name) , there's obviously not much point in me trying to rationally discuss your policy shopping-list, either.

Danny Finkelstein once said that for years we'd been sending people little cards saying "Hi, we don't like you very much", and as a result they weren't willing to listen to us. Consider this a practical demonstration of how that works.

Editor - " The endless repetition of the same points is very tedious and I think he stopped adding value to the site some time ago. Many suspect he is a troll. "

I hope, so you stay consistent, Jack Stone will be banned as well then.

Good riddance to Monday Clubber, I say. Now if we could only do something about the other UKIP trolls who infest the place....

"52% of voters believe that you can have tax cuts and economic stability or simply prefer tax cuts."

This is a large percentage. [By the way it was 46% in my copy of the ST]

But I would suggest that most of them will vote tory anyway.

It's perhaps the 41% who believe stability is more important than tax cuts that we need to focus on.

Whatever we say, I can't believe anybody will believe that the tax burden is likely to be higher under the tories.

I'm no expert but I think we should persist with the cameron/osborne/hilton tax strategy

Editor - You and all the Cameroons here - especially Jack Stone will be able to have their incestuous chats with nobody to point out that they are talking rubbish based on ignorance

And YOU, Mr Editor, are RIGHT to say you can ban people - nobody doubts that. But to do so on the strength of a fake message which IS STILL THERE shows that your principles are not very robust.

For heaven's sake do the decent thing otherwise you are condemning the innocent and succouring the guilty - the guilty person who has DELIBERATELY set out to deceive the blog and its readers. Shame on you. You've devalued ConservativeHome and turned it into a manipulated spin-machine for those who are betraying the party.

On the polls you can forget the Cameron v Brown figures because 24% of those who say they will vote Labour like Cameron better.

That's a fat lot of practical use!

"No Cameroon has ANY policies at all about anything. Posted by: christina speight "

Christina you are so emphatic, but are just plain wrong in what you say. Here are a few examples.

No more powers to EU without a referendum (Hague Bmouth)
No income Tax for troops overseas (Cameron BMouth).
More prison places (Davis Bmouth).
Replace HRA with UK bill of rights (Cameron Bmouth)

If you are going to debate on here at least try and pay attention.

"betraying the party" Christina? That's a very strong term. The party is a broad church. And ultimately of course, it matters far more what we do in power than what we say in opposition. If Cameron manages an outright majority at the next GE (rather than a hung parliament), I predict that tax as a percentage of GDP - the most sensible measure in my view - will fall over the course of the parliament

I like the way some people think "Cameroon" is almost an insult.

I'm a Cameroon, and proud.

This poll surely proves that the old grip the Tory press had on public opinion has extinguished.

The real seat of power politicians need to look to for infulencing puplic opinion is places like here.

That's not good news for the established parties Right Wingery, as it means new outfits can compete with them on more equal terms

We need to pause and recall the critique made by Tim Montgomerie in last week's Independent.The Cameron electoral camp is to narrow to win.I believe the current oppinion poll lead is extremely soft at the centre.There is no real committment amongst a volatile and deepful distrustful electorate.

The Cameron mood music of the past year has suceeded in presenting the party more professionaly.At least the elecorate is now taking notice.The task now however is to build a broader elctoral consenus.

It has become fashionable amongst many on this site who have swallowed the leadership's line totally to debunk any traditionally conservative position.This must end.

We must begin now to address the great issues of Immigration,Crime and the debilitatings effects of political correctness. This would allow the Party to become more relevant outside of London and the South East.We must speak to the voters of the great Northern cities to build an electoral consensus that will help us to win.Climate change,Civil Partnerships and hug a hoodie will not cut the mustard.

It is a bit of a puzzle the poll because like some other posters I didn't think we got partiularly good coverage in the media for the conference (although as Dizzy pointed out the tax row was worked out ok because it gave Cameron an opportunity to prove his moderate credentials). Saying that it wasn't too bad especially on very new lite outlets like BBC3 and Radio 1 who don't have time to give more than the briefest summary.

I find today's row about Monday Clubber sad but support the editor 100%. It would be nice if Conservative Home could become a place where people who support the party and want to see it do well could debate and discuss in a civil way. Sadly this site has becoming a victim of it's own success and the mad and bad will (if Tim isn't careful) drive out the rest of us.

Martin Bristow is right that the poll lead is soft, but its softest at the political centre. Mood music and environmentalism will need to be backed up by concrete action on the NHS & education. Which will drive the naysayers on this site demented. Watch out for it.

hf - the only one of those 4 items of "policy" is more prison places - David Davis as you said and you will note.

Hague on the EU - I'd hope not, but they invited Sarkozy (invited by the Cameroons) who TODAY demands "extension of qualified majority voting (to eliminate our veto), and letting the Euro-so-called Parliament choose a President, allow national parliaments the right to SAY they don't approve (nobody has to listen though), creation of a EU foreign minister (eliminating our foreign minister's role) and give the EU a legal personality so that the EU could take a place on international bodies IN PLACE of national governments.

Cameron on No income Tax for troops overseas Big Deal - I'd hope not.

Replace HRA with UK bill of rights (Cameron) Unless it says the same things as the HRA the EU will veto it - Do wake up please!

A H Matlock - You don't believe in devate do you. As a NON-UKIP person I am not a troll. I'm a despairing Tory who can't vote for this fatuous set-uo.
Martin Bristow - "At least the elecorate is now taking notice." With Blair's lot comitting Hara Kiri they are desperate to find something they CAN vote for. But they can't find it! Otherwise I agree!!
Modern Conservative - all you want is not debate but mutual congratulation and seld deception.

And to congratulate the editor for backing someone who DELBERATELY set out to wreck the blog while banning someone whose views are inconvenient in punishmentis pure censorship

Editor - When are you going to restore the honour of the blog by removing a FAKE posting and restoring the one you wrongly punished for it.

Tim Montgomerie, I thought better of you

Glad to hear you are no longer in UKIP, Christina. Speaking as someone who has served the Conservative Party loyally since the beginning of my political consciousness (having first joined the party, like you, when Sir Winston Churchill was our leader), it is always good to see a wayward soul come home.

Modern Conservative, to say that those who disagree with the Party dont support the Party and dont want it to do well, is a poor point to make. As so many people of varying conservative views have said before, its a broad church. Disagreeing with the party is not the same as wanting it to fail. I want the Party to be successful and have campaigned hard locally over the past few years so that this Party can be successful. Disagreeing with the Party in fact could be seen to be a good thing. I care enough to argue and debate about the future of the party. Some have simply walked out on the Party without even trying.

The 'Us' and 'Them' argument has been used time and time again on this site and doesnt have a strong basis. Were all fighting for the same future, we just have different views on how this should be acheived.

"The LibDems are not going away. This latest poll shows Ming's party at 20%. It is difficult to see the Tories winning a parliamentary majority without LibDem support retreating in southern England."

This isn't accurate...

Look at the 1979, 1983, 1987 and 1992 election results. The Conservatives consistantly get 41% - 43% in the polls, yet their majorities were respectively 40, 144, 100 and 21. In 1983 and 1987, the rise in the Alliance vote actually helped Thatcher get two enormous majority governments. It was only in the early 90s, when the Alliance vote collapsed and Labour started to regain an ounce of electability, did Major lose his majority.

Perhaps a rise in the Liberal vote isn't such a bad thing... as long as it is displacing Labour votes.

Just to confirm you are not the same Christina who suggested a "Tories for UKIP" move? on the eureferendum website on 3 |oct @ 10:15

A H Matlock - I was only in UKIP long enough to find that the members were fine but the leaders were - in some cases literally - crooks!

Maine Man! Yes I did say "Tories for UKIP" ironically though half seriously! I am a Tory - first in 1947 - but I could never vote for the half-baked wishy-washy lot that is Cameron's party. I like people with guts and a vision, and fire in their belly.

The thing is; what Cameron is doing with the party has shown huge guts and vision, as well as a preparedness to make himself unpopular with what remains of his party's support.

Its just like he said, you want nothing else than the old policies back. But what I suspect really annoys you is that Cameron LIKES things. Doesn't matter what it is. You prefer politicians who DISLIKE things, the EU, taxation, NHS, public spending. Makes for a far more vitriolic tone what-ho!

James you wrote "to say that those who disagree with the Party dont support the Party and dont want it to do well, is a poor point to make".

I don't think I said that. Really what troubles me and what I'd like to less of is those who rather than see good and bad are just unrelentingly negative. This gives the impression that they aren't on the same side as the rest of us which means the debates become quite bad tempered.

For example I have been accused that what i;

"want is not debate but mutual congratulation and self deception."

which seems a little harsh, given that I can't recall doing any of that and certainly not today.

Wasp - Try reading what's written here . I've already said and proved that I don't want the old policies back as such. I listed some POSITIVE things I DO want and the prime one is to help those most ground down by nuLabour But you say "that Cameron LIKES things". WHAT does he like but riding a bike, looking at glaciers, etc . Nobody has a clue about him liking anything important. He's all smoke and mirrors and spin.

Modern Conservative - You object to my remark that what you"want is not debate but mutual congratulation and self deception." " . But what else is YOUR remark - -"It would be nice if Conservative Home could become a place where people who support the party and want to see it do well could debate and discuss in a civil way" ie Don't let's disagree. Quite Stalinist!

I agree with you Modern Conservative. I find it so depressing to come on here sometimes. I wonder where all the Conservatives have gone! I come on here and I see those who would rather be ideologically pure and in opposition. Personally I think that there is enough in what Mr Cameron has said for me to be sure that he will be a better PM than Gordon Brown, and I will work to ensure he is PM after the next General Election.

I think it's clear that the right wing trolls on here don't want the party to do well.

Here's a real quote from Monday CLubber (non-parody):

"It was a brilliant virtuoso performance by Blair.

I see New Labour increasingly getting its act together from now on. Blair and Brown are serious politicians, much as we may dislike their views.

The trouble with Cameron and Osborne is that they really are Junior XV material.
At the very least he has shown more commitment to the War of Terror than some of our so-called fellow-Tories.

We can also thank him for removing Major, although that wasn't difficult. I don't think I actually shouted "Tory Gain!" in Heffer style but I guess most of us were delighted to see the back of Britain's worst Prime Minister ever.

Anyone who thinks this man is on our side should think again.

Christina how is wanting a discussion in a civil way Stalinist? How can you debate and discuss without disagreement. But the vitriolic outpourings of hate towards any form of modernisation that appears on here is so depressing it drives some of us to distraction.

It is clear from the ConHome survey's that your dislike of Mr Cameron is not shared by the vast majority of the party, so why continue to claim that we are wrong and you are right?

While I'm at it why don't some of the more bileous supporters take out your suppressed anger on the real enemy - they're the ones with red or yellow or purple rosettes by the way...

Editor - Isn't it high time that you restored the honour of the blog by removing a FAKE posting and apologised for wrongly banning the person who DID NOT WRITE IT ?

It is the most disgraceful chicanery on your part and you've had ample opportunity to make amends. Instead you pursue a Stalinist censorship which many of us will now assume is on the instructions of Party Officer(s)

"I find it so depressing to come on here sometimes. I wonder where all the Conservatives have gone!"

Perhaps alot of Conservatives have lost enthusiasm for party politics because David Cameron offers them so little hope that he will make a difference.

Martin, I think the empahsis on health and the reassuring tone on the NHS will help us in the North and in the cities.


Is it not time the Edior also banned Christina as her shouting is becoming more tedious by the day.

Ben - There is NO modernisation on offer. All that we get are politically correct tinkering with party democracy all based on a massive broken promise, which promise enabled Cameron to get elected. That;s enough to hate anyone.

The blog's survey is confined to party members ON the blog. They are NOT "the vast majority of the party"!! Dob't kid yourself.
Most who feel like me have written the bloggers here off as juveniles in mind if not in age! I have been openly encouraged by several candidates I know - all relegated to the Z list.

They don't dare post themselves, but nobody's perfect. They all want to see the end of Cameron.

"The Real Enemy". That to me is anyone who would destroy everything that has made us a great country - that's ALL the Social Democrats - Yellow, Blue and Red. = you can't tell them apart. They all spin , they all lie and they all break their promises but Cameron must hold the speed record for breaking his.

This is the first time I've visited this site... learnt about it at the Conservative Conference.

It's great to have the ability to comment on tory issues.

However, must some contributors be quite boring and go on about people being banned -or not???

This is a great site for comment to for bashing each other....

As for the subject - I think David Cameron has a certain appeal about him. That is what people like - no wonder he has taken the lead.

Yes Matt - you are right - let's ban anyone who doesn't agree with the whole of the Cameron project.

These dangerous forces who suggest conservative policies need removing. I want to talk about chocolate oranges, pre-teen clothes and my carbon footprint on here and these people are getting in the way.

you might want to check out [email protected]

christina is getting mightily tedious too. Monday Clubber, real or not, did *nothing* but bash the Conservative party.

If you think this site is under instructions from CCO you need your head examined. There are stories on here every day that are critical.

"No more 'hello sunshine', Mr Cameron"

"Andrew Gimson regrets David Cameron's 'use' of his children"

in just the last few days. A slavish site would not choose to single these stories out.

Mr Montgomerie comes from a right-wing traditionalist perspective I believe, and works with the party on that basis, sadly many posters on here don't want to work with it on any basis, and post as Christina does on how they "hate" the party. This is useless and the overwhelming majority of Tory supporters want the party to win, that is why its support is well up and that of UKIP where these nasty trolls come from is not.

Unfortunately the strident trolls manage to dominate here despite the fact that Mr Cameron is far more popular than the likes of bankrupt Brown and Tony Blair. This gives a completely misleading impression of the party that the likes of Monday Clubber who openly admits to preferring Blair's Labour with its unconservative obsession with public spending, years of massive immigration, and tax credits to all and sundry, to the Conservative party under David Cameron who have committed unlike Labour to reducing taxes when it is possible, and have sensibly avoided being pinned down on specifics so far in advance.

These horrid trolls clearly prefer a left-wing Labour government to a right-of-centre Tory one.

Sadly they are taken as representative of Tory opinion: Monday Clubber was posted on the BBC website as a sample of opinion, when he is nothing of the kind, and nothing other than a destructive troll.

Bee - what you want then is this site to close down.

I personally think we are not doing well enough. The government is imploding but we are not close to a lead that will get us an overall majority.

All the polling showed that our policies on tax/ europe/ immigration were popular until people found out they were conservative policies.

In Cameron we finally have a leader who is a great salesman. If only our popular leader would sell our popular policies, we could win.

Spot on, Bee. It is high time that obvious trolls like Monday Clubber, who have done nothing but embarrass the Party in front of the media and provide ammunition for its opponents were silenced.

People like right-wing policies but unfortunately the left-wing BBC doesn't and likes to portrary them as evil and wrong, so even with a charismatic leader, we won't win with right-wing policies.

People have been taught to feel guilty about being right-wing, it just won't work in modern Britain.

Lest you forget we had these policies for the last 10 years, and they were consistently rejected.

Bee - " Lest you forget we had these policies for the last 10 years, and they were consistently rejected. "

Unless you want to completely ignore the polling, the policies weren't rejected, the conservative party was. Our party image was the problem and we choose leaders who would be better suited to an Adams Family tribute. Cameron could win if he chose to use his image to sell our popular policies.

Our image doesn’t start and stop with the each Leader. David Cameron is doing a fantastic job of modernising the party – bringing it up to date with the issues that voters care about. A year ago nobody thought this sort of progress would be possible.

You complain that he’s not making enough capital out of Labour’s implosion, but ask yourself why Labour is imploding. The state of the nation is little worse than it was two years ago... Labour hasn’t had a Black Wednesday. Their troubles are a direct result of how David Cameron’s leadership has put them under real pressure.

I welcome the calm and interesting postings by Bee, Mark Fulford, and other courteous posters here, not just because I agree with their sentiments, I respect others whose views I do not share when they are put in a similar civiised way. However I object strongly to the likes of Christina and those who metaphorically shout abuse at those of us who have different views to theirs. Any attempt to put up a counter argument is treated with distain, discussion is shut down. Christina in particular, seems not to know the basics of civilised discourse, and in my opinion this site is demeaned in consequence.

"Unless you want to completely ignore the polling, the policies weren't rejected, the conservative party was. Our party image was the problem and we choose leaders who would be better suited to an Adams Family tribute. "

Sorry, we thought it was the leader, so we tried three successive leaders, and they all failed. We heard "change the leader" three times, and three times it failed.

Now it is time to change the message. We are after all talking about marketing. Babycham did something similar I believe, seen as horribly passé, they didn't change the product, they just changed the marketing of it.

The party is seen as nasty, and when we are associated with right-wing policies people have rejected us. These policies sound nice to the individual, but when it comes to the ballot box people are scared we will wreck the economy and privatise the NHS. That is why we are hearing the NHS message, a very valid one when Labour have doubled spending without improving output and are now closing hospitals. People heard us saying "no more immigrants", and they rejected it.

I think the tone of the debate needs to be raised.The challenge of out time is how do we create a new electoral consensus capable of entrenching Conservatism as our dominant political ideology.

It is true that I do personally differ with our leadership on certain issues that will always be the case for any of us.However it is quite wrong to suggest that David Cameron is not a conservative as some appear to do.

Much of the rist 12 months of DC's leadership has been an excersise in positioning and that is fime,he has done this very well.Now however we have the hard part.We must bring forward a truly broad and radical political prospectus based upon our roots.

The Conservative Party has always been keenly aware, however, of the need for adaptation through the ages and now is such a time.It is my belief that there is currently no consensus within British Politics.People are wholly disaffected ,lacking trust in all politicians including our own.There is no one issue that units all and their is an undercurrent of volatility within the elctorate.

Against this background the Conservative Party must entrench itself.We must addressthe key issues people come into direct contact with each day of their lives.Drug use and it's terrible consequences,Violent Crime the creation of enclaves of deprivation and welfarism in our great cities.

Much of this has it's roots in the failures of the past.A breakdown in the traditional family and the desertion of the criminal justice system to wrong headed liberals who never see the consequences of their actions.

From my perspective we have to find a way of engaing Labour on these issues.This would show the clear blue water between our prospectus and Labour's.It is my hope that DC appreciates this and will build a new political consensus in this way.One way or another I doubt that his current agenda will be broad enough.

Isn`t it about time Ms Speight said something postive about something.
Her progressive policy`s are about as progressive as wanting hanging back.
The present leadership of the party are Liberal Conservatives not Social Democrats. I am afraid you are just parroting the words of the leader of a minor party of no significient.
The party is moving forward, with the right stratagdy and leader to win the next election. All Ms Speight and her fellow dinasauors can offer is defeat.

It could be said that its about time you were critical about something in the Conservative Party...

Maybe Jack you ought to talk a bit more about the future.How are we going to build the key electoral consensus to give us victory? Do you really think we resonate with those in our big Northern Cities for example?

What do you think our policy priorities should be moving forward?

Martin Bristow - "wrong to suggest that David Cameron is not a conservative as some appear to do." Well you could start with Cameron himself who specifically disowned the label Conservative preferring the term "Liberal conservative""WITH A SMALL C" !!

Mark Fulford - "David Cameron is doing a fantastic job of modernising the party – bringing it up to date with the issues that voters care about" Will Mark please tell us ANYTHING that Cameron has done exceppt for his most unpopular "A"list and his B2L referendum fiasco? Modernising ? WHAT modernising? What issues? What's he done? NOTHING except photo-ops. He misses every open goal that Labour presents and every important issue. On the services and their equipment? -NOTHING except smarmy praise!. On the stolen pensions disaster? Nothing at all - he hasn't noticed it because he and his friends are so rich it dosn't impinge.
Mark also claims that Cameron has put Labour "under pressure" - For heaven's sxake WHEN? On WHAT? Rubbish!

But Mark typifies what is wrong with Cameroonian tories - all slogans, image and spin. Not a serious thought in their heads. That's why so many here can't take criticism and want to go all Stalinist and silence it.

"Troll" appears to be a sloganeering word of abuse produced by empty minds that have lost the argument!

AHM - "It's high time they were silenced"- -Matt - "Is it not time the Edior also banned " -
Bee - lies when she writes - "post as Christina does on how they "hate" the party" I have NEVER said that. I have said that I could hate Cameron for breaking the solemn promise he made to get elected. NO what I hate are the non-Conservatives who have hijacked the party that I've spent most of my life with and are trying to turn it into a neo-NuLabour clone.
And, Bee, all you suggest in your 0932 post is that we don't put forward the policies that are right for Britain but those that please the focus groups. That's to abdicate leadership.
Gwendolyn - It is not easy to keep a civilised tone when every attempt to make constructive and detailed policy suggestions is met with either silence OR ABUSE. I get the impression that the details of policy are of little interest to some who post here and who look upon the blog as a mutual support device with CCHQ tolerated criticism to give an appearance of independence.

Christina please remember that at present we have a Labour Governement.All of us share your frustration with this fact and wish it were not so.

We will not however change this unpalatable state of affairs by precipitating a massive arguement within our ranks.Reflection,Analysis and reasoned arguement is the way forward.It is a fact over the last 12 months the Conservative Party has improved it's electoral prospects.Not enough , we all realise this ,but certainly a move in the right direction.

I acknowledge this.Whatever language DC chooses to describe himself does not diminish his leadership's achievement in making the party look and sound better.

There is much work to do now on policy.On doing what Tim Montgomerie alludes to and broadening appeal.Turning inwards and attacking people in the way you are currently is counter productive and futile.It is no good being right about things and ringing your hands in opposition.

Sorry Christina I didn't say we should put forward focus group policies, I said our 'nasty' *marketing* had been proven to be unelectable, and despite many crises from Labour from 1997 to 2005, the Tories NEVER had a lead for more than a couple of weeks as they do now. The difference now is our image.

I personally would like to see a party with the following policies:

vouchers for private education
scrap national insurance and introduce proper contributory insurance for pensions
end immigration from Eastern Europe
exit the EU and pursue a free trade agreement with Europe
scrap high-paying public sector non-jobs, and encourage wages to fall in areas where there is little employment to bring in investment, rather than the Communist levels of public sector employment in parts of the country of 60%+
end incapacity benefit as a substitute for the dole for the long-term unemployed
stop printing public information leaflets in Gujarati, etc. rather than English
scrap the Human Rights Act

and quite a few other rather right-wing policies

But this puts me in a small minority of the population. I'm realistic enough to acknowledge that that policy platform isn't electable.

Normal people worry about the NHS, many middle class people are now very liberal and find the party of section 28 offputting. In the 70s such attitudes were normal. Time has moved on, Rupert Murdoch of all people prints a free London paper with a daily gay diary. My colleague, who earns in excessive of £100,000 per annum and is gay, liberal & in a stable relationship, is disgusted by Labour's slavish pursuit of US foreign policy, finds Mr. Cameron to be the first Tory leader that he could consider voting for in his life.

The world has changed, and I for one don't welcome all of it, but at least I'm sensible enough to recognise that the massive dependency culture of Labour in any way is definitely *not* preferable to a moderate Conservative government.

It's quite clear, you can support the Conservative party we have (which is without doubt still a conservative party, and to the right of Labour), or you can fight it, argue for policies argued for an Alf Garnett world, and end up with a Labour government. The choice is yours.

Bee puts the position succinctly and well.That is the reality.Striving for some ideological purity in policy is futile.It is probable that the majority of us support many of the policy stances Bee outlines wholehearteddy maybe even Christina does too.

It is also irrefutably true that many do not.I am simply saying that to win an election we need to switch on both camps.This requires skill and swallowing a lot of things we don't agree with in positioning our party.

People like Christina need to decide what they really want the government of Britain to look like after the next election.That is the most crucial decision for us all.

Bee - It's not the change of leadership that has improved the party's standing , it's the collapse of the Labour party's impregnable stance. Any improvement is due to Blair and not to that Blair-clone, Cameron. And he's not done very well either.

The party's reached a plateau (at best) in the polls at a level of another defeat. Howard in an actual election improved the party's position immensely and if he were still in place he would be making mincemeat out of Labour on defence (men and equipment), education, pensions. We get silence on these. The NHS doesn't NEED more money. It needs proper structure and management. (The initiative today may help - I haven't got to grips with it yet)

You list a range of policies YOU want. I happen to agree with most of them. Cameron has no intention of doing anything about any of them but relies almost entirely on photo-ops and spin. He is ruled by the Focus-Group mindset and since you back him it is only reasonable that I should say that you are backing that mindset, surely?

Where I get riled is with your remark that I want policies " argued for an Alf Garnett world". That's near libellous. I've suggested here progressive policies on tax, NHS reform, educational suggestions, and you talk about Alf Garnett - Per-lease! That's not debate - it's abuse.

Martin Bristow - Where I disagree with you posting is that you are urging solidarity above all. I despair when I see no proper conservative party (small c) ever again. For whether Cameron wins or not, conservatives are finished if they stay with him. With no conservative party the country will also be finished. It's not far from the abyss now. I put my country before my party and am arguing here for Tories to wake up and see what is being done to them.

This blog is perhaps the most concentrated collection of Cameroons around so I know I'm sticking my neck out but I do so because I must!

I do urge solidarity Christina.Without this the Conservative movement will find no practical hearing.It is not a question of Tories waking up to what is being done to us.It is a question of us waking up the people of this country to what is being done to them.

In this task we face a formidable establishment which wastes no opportunity to portray Consevatism as an anachronism irrelevant to today's world.

It is a concerted attack taken forward by the press and TV media.These are the filters through which many unpolitical people get their views.We need to challenge this.Sites like this are a start hopefully a disticnctly Conservative TV news may follow in time ( a little like Fox news)

Forums like this would allow us to challenge and set agendas. But to be listened to we must first be united in our purpose.This involves recognising were we are and why.Creating a massive fight internally is bad politics.The leadership will see this off and the ideas that you and others want to see heard will be harmed.

The only alternative left for anybody going down this line would be to Join a party such as UKIP which with all the best will in the world is an electoral irrelevance.

" It's not the change of leadership that has improved the party's standing , it's the collapse of the Labour party's impregnable stance. Any improvement is due to Blair and not to that Blair-clone, Cameron. And he's not done very well either. "

Sorry, wrong. What changed overnight with the Labour party when Cameron got elected? Blair didn't do anything different from the previous 10 years. It's absolutely laughable that you claim that it is due to Labour rather than Cameron, when we couldn't get a sustained lead for 13 years, and only now are we leading under Cameron.

"The party's reached a plateau (at best) in the polls at a level of another defeat. "

In case you hadn't noticed, the last election was 1 year ago. The next one is in 3 years. We do not need to win the election now! Hare and the tortoise and all that. I will be happy to see us behind for three years if we win the election.

"Howard in an actual election improved the party's position immensely and if he were still in place he would be making mincemeat out of Labour on defence (men and equipment), education, pensions. "

No, people don't care about policy arguments. It's well known and proven - the average Joe is not interested in defence debate. Howard did poorly after 8 years of Labour, apart from London, the party went backwards in many areas with only the Lib Dems keeping Labour back.

"This blog is perhaps the most concentrated collection of Cameroons around so I know I'm sticking my neck out but I do so because I must! "

No it's not. Cameron has 80%+ support, and yet on many stories here it's over half strident Cameron bashers who make the party look divided and opposed to him when it is not. Conservativehome is on many days a disaster for Tory PR.

Martin - You don't get over those who "portray Consevatism as an anachronism irrelevant to today's world" by agreeing with them and selling out! You get out and fight them. True Conservatism will not be immediately popular on first sight but that's what all those on the blog should be selling not a watered down neo-Blairism.


Bee - What changed? The Labour party got more and more unpopular and then noticeably sleazy to the point when some floaters thought the Tories couldn't be any worse and they've got a new leader. Simultaneously many Tories were horrified and in the polls went into 'Don't Know' mode (rarely reported in the polls) or into UKIP / BNP as protest mode. So all Cameron's posturing produced a temporary and inadequate blip. Remember Bromley???

"Not intersted in defence debate?" What rubbish! Our lads are dying for Blair's incompetence and hubris.and any politician worth his salt would go for the jugular on this because people DO care about sending Britons to their deaths ill-equipped. Blair's vanity deaths to boost his legacy.

The same applies to Gordon Brown's wrecking of Europe's best pension arrangements. Under proper Conservatives we had more pension savings than the rest of Europe put together. Now GB: has stolen that, put Britain at the bottom of the league AND CAMERON HASN'T NOTICED

"Conservativehome is on many days a disaster for Tory PR." Excellent news - I must keep up the good work. For as I've said a win for Cameronian Tories would wreck the party and country.

What you really mean Ms Speight is that you what to keep up the good work and get Gordon Brown elected because that is all that will happen if you keep posting all this rubbish we are subjected to day in day out.
Do you really think we will have more chance of tax cuts, less European intergaration with Mr Brown as PM than David Cameron. If you do you just don`t listen to what DC says in his speeches.
Also please lets stop this nonsense about David Cameron saying he is not a Conservative. David Cameron said he was a Liberal Conservative which is a perfectly acceptable thing for any member of the Conservative Party to be.Not all Conservative Party members have to be part of the right-wing UKIP tendancy.

I wouldn't have thought that a conservative (or a Conservative) should use the term "right-wing" as an insult.

Editor - can you butt in please. Haven't we all had enough? I have.

Its the same people getting involved in these petty disputes...and they arent just the more Cameron-critical posters involved here. The pro-Cameron posters are getting involved too. This is pretty pathetic. This website isnt for nursery age people...were supposed to be pretty intelligent thinkers discussing how best the Conservative Party can move forward. This is descending into farce...

James M: Yes CAN we please talk about things that matter like:- the party's reaction to Blair's foreign adventures and sending our men out to die unprepared; like the party's reaction to the pension scandal; what are the party's priorities on tax cuts - whenever; what the party proposes for the NHS (so far it's entirely attitudinal); what are the party's proposals for the shambles that are our schools; what the party is going to do about the DOUBLING of what we pay to the EU thanks to Blair (not a peep out of Cameron on most of the above)

Ive raised ALL these matters and get PERSONAL remarks in return. But then I'm an "intelligent thinker(s) discussing how best the Conservative Party can move forward"

Christina, theres intelligent discussion and theres ranting. You seem to indulge far too much in the latter. It does drag down the quality of debate. It only takes one person to post something which they know will get a reaction and then it all kicks off. If you want to go and cause trouble (and this isnt just directed at you Christina, its for anyone else) then go elsewhere. Guido's weblog is probably more appropriate.

There is a limit to how far we can take this thread.Christina will never agree that Cameron has any merit whatsoever.These entrenched position are causing the whole debate to become farcical as James Maskell says above.

It is apparent that all of us have our own positions.Maybe we should leave it at that

Martin - Did you see Murdoch's opinion of Blair, Brown and Cameron (BBC !!! Mmmm) I posted it on the blog's home p;age. Of Cameron he said he was "charming and bright" adding "He behaves as if he doesn't believe in anything other than trying to construct what he believes will be the right public image"

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