Scottish and Welsh logos revealed

Here are the three slightly different logo designs for Scotland, Wales and England.  If you look carefully you can see slight differences in the tree design but I cannot see why they are so slightly different.  I presume that there is a more colourful version of the Welsh logo but I only have a b&w version.

Northern Ireland Conservatives haven't got their own logo.

Comments

[James Burdett]

I'd have thought that the Scottish one would have been more purple to hint at a thistle. I'm sure these logo's will grow on us all though in time!

[John Coles]

Aren't you the Polyanna, James.

[T Sinden]

Where is the English one?

The usual ruddy insult from ALL the parties and the British establishment -
England carefully not allowed to be mentioned and airbrushed away .

Just another revealing act by a party which is so far up Scotland that their feet are disapearing .
Fact - the Scots are never going to vote for you again - get used to it .

The English are going off you too .

[Mark Fulford]

The Welsh and Scottish symbolism is lost on me! Can someone explain?

[Alison Anne Smith]

I'm happy to stick with NI and let the Welsh and Scottish mambers have their own pictures. Its just a bit sad that they feel the need to be separate in the first place?

[Alison Anne Smith]

....mambers ??? I meant members, I'm not trying to get this changed as well !!

[Watchdog]

Uck

[Chris Palmer]

Oh look, two more sqwiggles.

[Jonathan Scott]

Of course the Scots and Welsh Conservatives need to have separate logos. David Cameron has recently apologised for the Thatcher Government's attitude towards Scotland in the 1980s, which decimated the 'Orange Vote', the traditional support of Scots Protestants in the central industrial belt for the SCOTTISH CONSERVATIVE & UNIONIST PARTY. It was this support that got Sir Teddy Taylor elected for Glasgow Cathcart in the 70s.

The United Kingdom is about 'unity in diversity'; that is why the Scots and Welsh need a separate logo, separate party etc. It is because the Conservatives under John Major were so out of touch with Scotland and Wales and even opposed devolution (a unionist way of supporting the union while recognising the need for separate governance) that our Party lost all its seats in Scotland and Wales in 1997.

[Simon Mallett]

Is the Welsh logo going to have an English translation below it or just the Welsh wording?

How much is this rebranding actually going to cost? The £40,000 on the consultants is only the start. Everyone will have to scrap all previous party publicity. I liked the torch. I quite like the tree but actually think it's a waste of time, effort and money.

[Cllr. Gavin Ayling]

As T Sinden said, where's the English version? England's is ignored again by the party that I otherwise have no problems with. Come on Cameron!

[Steve Paine]

England's version is above! It's an oak tree, a marvelous tree that is slowly dying out because of the mismanagement of our environment. Let's just hope that in the future, "squiggles" of Oak trees isn't all we have left of them! A fine logo, fit for the party.

[Bob]

Why doesn't England have it's own logo? What an insult to the 50million of us.

[Jane de Weijer]

Why are we all jumping to the conclusion that this is an Oak tree??I've squinted at it for a few minutes and ,ok, maybe I am not an expert but nothing there says 'Oak tree' to me? Not even a hint of an acorn ..?
Come to think of it it doesn't say Political Party either...I would expect it to be printed on a paper bag in a gift shop in Swanage..maybe one selling hand crafted soaps and wind chimes..

[Jane de Weijer]

Why are we all jumping to the conclusion that this is an Oak tree??I've squinted at it for a few minutes and ,ok, maybe I am not an expert but nothing there says 'Oak tree' to me? Not even a hint of an acorn ..?
Come to think of it it doesn't say Political Party either...I would expect it to be printed on a paper bag in a gift shop in Swanage..maybe one selling hand crafted soaps and wind chimes..

[Max]

I may be entirely wrong but I think the Scottish logo is a birch tree rather than an oak tree.

Jonathan - I don't think you can blame Lady Thatcher for the loss of the 'Orange vote' it was in decline (along with the Church of Scotland) since well before 1979. Glasgow Cathcart was also a fairly well off seat and it was only really due to the growth of the Castlemilk estate that Teddy Taylor lost it. He did extrmely well to hold it as long as he did though.

[Andrew Woodman]

Has the Welsh tree been burnt out?

[Andrew Woodman]

Has the Welsh tree been burnt out?

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Is there a reason why the Welsh logo is in some language alien to almost everyone in Wales but not in the common language spoken by all in Wales?
I have no problem pandering to minorities - or as the logo does to small children - but what on earth is the divisive significance of a black logo for Wales - is this indicative of some EU immigration plan to be foist upon us undemocratically like 80% of our legislation where Westminster is just the museum of democracy and a cypher for an alien power - the EUropean soviet, now a fully fledged state with its own dictator committee and refusal to implement Justice, merely more and more laws.
What on earth is the relevance of the squiggle - inane doodles on a fag packet for lack of ideas?

This entire concept is childish, banal and oh so indicative of Vapid Cameroon's new blue labour!

How sad,
Greg L-W.

[T Sinden]

To J Scott ,
I see a Scottish logo , a logo for Welsg speakers in Wales and a ( presumeably ) British logo .

There is NO logo for England , as usual we are taken for granted and not allowed to be what we are , which is English .

Meanwhile Cameron is still committed to income tax in England being 3p in the £ higher than in Scotland .

" United " Kingdom - don't make me laugh .

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

I initially hated the new logo, but the more I've seen of it, the more I've come to like it.

However, I'm not sure it's worth £40k, particularly at a time when some of our party, led by Andrew Tyrie, are calling for state funding because party finances are in a mess.

And in response to Greg Lance-Watkins, Welsh is not 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales', and it's precisely ignorant attitudes like yours which undermine efforts to extend usage of the language further.

(Although to be fair, those efforts are also undermined by incorrect spelling and grammar as evident in the Welsh Conservative logo above.)

[Matthew Oxley]

As an Englishman, I'm actually quite relieved we don't have our own special logo. 3 embarrassing logo's are enough for now

[elrafa]

You're f***ed if you live in Wales and don't speak Welsh then.

[malcolm]

'Meanwhile Cameron is still committed to income tax being 3p in the £ higher in England than in Scotland'-T. Sinden. Eh?

[Jonathan Mackie]

Malcolm - The Scottish Parliament has tax varying powers. It has the capability of raising or lowering the basic rate by 3p.

Given that tax powers were the second part of the endorsed 1997 plebiscite, Cameron isn't really endorsing it.

Now if he were very brave and want to emphasise his Britishness and the Britishness of the Party, then lets offer an independence referendum to Scotland. That should end the debate once and for all, either way.

Personally as a Scot living in England, I think it would be utter madness to create an independent Scotland, but it is now time to put the issue to the popular vote.

[Stephen Hodgson]

Perhaps they could produce a Christmas logo of a fir tree with a star on the top! (The star would be blue of course, like the badges we wore when we were students in the 1980's)

[Sandbagger]

I really think that Jonathan Scott should learn a little history of the Party in Scotland before he havers on about the reasons for the demise of the Tory vote in Scotland. How dare Dave apologise for what Margaret Thatcher was supposed to have done in Scotland. I, for one supported her all the way and it was the great unwashed who brought down the fairest system of financing Local Government ie.The Community Charge. All who use the services,should pay something towards them.I could go on and on about this subject and the reason why it was first of all brought in for Scotland the year before the rest of the Country. Before people rush into make comment it would be better to have done some research. As far as the logo is concerned,we will be the laughing stock in political circles for being daft enough to accept this scribble. What sort of market research was done before putting this forward or was it the result of a Infant school art prize.

[George Hinton]

So the Scots tilt leftward;
The English are stunted and tilt right;
and the Welsh look like TAZ from the cartoon series.
What a waste of forty grand.

[Dick Wishart]

The Welsh logo is green

[James Burdett]

To be honest the Welsh one looks rather like a shaggy dog doing lifting its leg...

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

In response to the comment:
Posted by: Daniel Vince-Archer | September 15, 2006 at 15:06
>"And in response to Greg Lance-Watkins, Welsh is not 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales', and it's precisely ignorant attitudes like yours which undermine efforts to extend usage of the language further.
(Although to be fair, those efforts are also undermined by incorrect spelling and grammar as evident in the Welsh Conservative logo above.)"<

Your point is ill considered and ill informed - rather less than 5% of the population of Wales have passed ANY meaningful test in the Welsh language - there are at least 3 clear dialects amongst those who do use it and there are far more people in large parts of Wales who speak Gujerrati or Hindi than Welsh.

In a sub economic area with almost no meaningful inward investment since 1997 other than repatriation of British taxes laundered and filtched throuigh the EU, it is ill advised to force a false language upon its majority and spend a fortune of other peoples money on building resentment for the language?

Better to use the money to build a Childrens' Hospital, clean the existing ones (having had MRSA & HAI myself), or even create some jobs outside of the QUANGOcracy as controlled by the Crackau (sp). The governance of Wales is a disgrace Devolved irresponsibility under direct control of the EUropean soviet in an attempt to bypass Westminster!

The aim of language is communication and as my monoglott Welsh grandmother soon discovered there are none with whom one can not communicate in Wales with English and now none who are monoglott!

Perhaps Daniel lives in some benighted area unknown to modern man where Lady Guest's translation of The Mabinogian of globally replicated stories is not known!

Welsh is as I described it 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales'even with compulsion there are only a very small minority who can use it with any accument with need!

S4C the Welsh subsidised Welsh language TV channel is the worlds most costly TV per hour watched with audiences recorded as Zero for some coverage of The National Ass for Wales!
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[George Hinton]

On reflection the Welsh one looks like a sheep about to do a runner.

[James Maskell]

Could someone who speaks Welsh please translate the supposedly Welsh "Conservatives" bit...is it correct Welsh...if not, what does it actually mean in English?

DO NOT POST THE CORRECT WELSH...let CCO work it out for themselves...hehehe

About the English tree...its got to be the green one...the bottom one.

[Richard]

"Is there a reason why the Welsh logo is in some language alien to almost everyone in Wales but not in the common language spoken by all in Wales?"

What percentage of the Welsh actually speak Welsh? I am genuinely interested to know.

[Della Petch]

Cameron has just given a speech on how ignorant and disrespectful the Little Englanders are towards Scotland.
I'd like to ask - Where is the English logo? Where is the English Conservative Party?
And if Cameron is such a devout Unionist, why not just one BRITISH logo?

Clearly, the Conservatives are ignorant and disrespectful Little Unionists, when it comes to England and the English.

The Conservatives could well soon be as irrelevant in England as they are in Scotland, as long as Dave "there's a lot of Scottish blood in these veins" Cameron is allowed to treat us this way.

And is there no one in the Conservative Party willing to stand up and defend their people and their nation? Are they all so shallow that will continue to live on the taxpayers money and not defend our rights?

ENGLISH PARLIAMENT OR INDEPENDENCE NOW!!!!!!

[The UK Daily Pundit]

After seeing the full range of logos I'm even more convinved that this is a wind-up.

[Cllr. Gavin Ayling]

It's independence for me, Della.

Those who have commented here that the green one is the English one are quite, quite wrong. It is the British one.

EVoEM is a sopp to those who realise that Scottish and Welsh devolution has left England in a democratic and constitutional mess. That EVoEM, which is flawed, was chosen is understandable when the party ignores England in something so facile as its logo!

[Paul, Southampton]

"Now if he were very brave and want to emphasise his Britishness and the Britishness of the Party, then lets offer an independence referendum to Scotland."

Jonathan at 18:44

Shouldn't the English get a vote on Scottish Independence? He who pays the piper calls the tune, surely?

Going back to the logos, has anyone mocked up a ballot paper to see how the trees look very small and in black ink? The trees will probably look like smudges.

[Della Petch]

I'll go for that, Gavin. Actually, the green one doesn't even bother to say British. Its just one for all the Conservative Party.

Paul, Southampton, you are quite wrong. England should not vote on Scottish Indepdence. We should vote on English Independence. We are in the driving seat for the Union, apparently. Without England, there IS NO UNION. That's what the terrified speeches are all about.

Scotland have been dithering for years and we've been waiting patiently for just as long, for them to go. They need a push.

Doesn't anyone else find it incredulous that Cameron is trying to shift the blame onto the English, because the Scots hate them? It's his Scottish blood talking - he knows he can say that in Scotland and its perfectly acceptable.

When will England be getting a similar speech about the Scots? Well, never, actually. He thinks we will continue to accept this anti-English crap, because we've kept silent for so long.

Just because we're not yet rioting in the streets, they shouldn't take that as a sign of acceptance. We are English and we take other routes first. Cameron would know that, if he understood the English.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"Your point is ill considered and ill informed - rather less than 5% of the population of Wales have passed ANY meaningful test in the Welsh language - there are at least 3 clear dialects amongst those who do use it and there are far more people in large parts of Wales who speak Gujerrati or Hindi than Welsh."

Actually, I rather think it is your point that is ill considered and ill informed - rather than making spurious references to 'meaningful tests', why don't you take a look at the 2001 census statistics?

You might like to note that those statistics revealed that, in 2001, almost 600,000 people (i.e. over one in five) over the age of three in Wales were able to speak Welsh.

Furthermore, those statistics also revealed that, in 2001, over 26% of under-35s in Wales were able to speak Welsh, an increase of almost 9% on 1991 figures.

Considering these statistics, and given that the number of Welsh speakers will almost certainly have increased since 2001 thanks to active efforts to promote the Welsh language in education and throughout the public sphere, I think any reasonably intelligent person would consider your ignorant comments about Welsh being 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales' to be nonsense.

"In a sub economic area with almost no meaningful inward investment since 1997 other than repatriation of British taxes laundered and filtched throuigh the EU, it is ill advised to force a false language upon its majority and spend a fortune of other peoples money on building resentment for the language?"

The failings of the Labour administration in Cardiff Bay are certainly plentifold, but I don't consider the active promotion of the Welsh language to be one of them.

As for your patronising, prejudiced description of Welsh as a 'false language', I consider that to be quite offensive, but I see from your alleged description of the murder of former Swedish foreign minister Anna Lindh as 'the act of a patriot' that such remarks are par for the course with you.

"Perhaps Daniel lives in some benighted area unknown to modern man where Lady Guest's translation of The Mabinogian of globally replicated stories is not known!"

I have to admit I've got no idea what you're referring to there - I can only apologise for my obvious ignorance.

"S4C the Welsh subsidised Welsh language TV channel is the worlds most costly TV per hour watched with audiences recorded as Zero for some coverage of The National Ass for Wales."

That can be attributed to a variety of factors, not least the quality of Welsh language programming relative to the far superior English language alternatives on offer.

I agree that S4C ratings are poor, but I don't necessarily see that supports your original point about Welsh being 'some alien language to almost everyone in Wales'.

[Ian Campbell]

What English version? I can't see one. There is one for Scotland, one for Wales and one for the UK. Where is there one that says English Conservatives? In its absence we can only conclude the the Conservatives do not care for England and think that what is good enough for the UK is good enough for those of us who live in England. What will Mr Cameron do if he gains five seats in Scotland and loses five in England because many erstwhile supporters decide to vote for parties that recognise England?

[David Banks]

Why oh why is the Welsh Oak BLACK?
Have you ever seen a BLACK oak tree?
As a gardener i would have to say , it would be dead.

[Richard]

One thing I'm wondering about this whole logo debacle - does anybody think the electorate actually cares what our logo looks like as long as it's not a swastika?

I've seen people talk about the new logo being "modern" and explained in great detail how it will appeal to people.

Firstly, I don't think the electorate is shallow enough to vote for a Party just because it has changed its logo.

Secondly, allow me to quote someone from the previous thread on this topic:

"An oak tree if not done carefully could appear aloof, imposing and forebiding which goes completely against the 'bottom up' sort of politics Cameron has been trying to advocate."

Do people REALLY analyse logos to that level of detail? An oak tree has never struck me as aloof or imposing. It just strikes me as a tree.

My personal opinion is that the new logo will probably attract more mockery than praise because it looks like a childish scribble - something I would have thought a PR Company would have foreseen. I shall be interested to see what Private Eye make of it.

[Paul, Southampton]

"Paul, Southampton, you are quite wrong. England should not vote on Scottish Indepdence. We should vote on English Independence."

I don't see how I am quite wrong. The definition of a dependency from Collins is "a territory geographically distinct from the country governing it". England can't vote for independence because we are not dependent in the first place. You could argue that because many cabinet members are Scottish, the English are dependent on the Scots, but it's not a strict interpretation of the definition. So if the English were to be given a vote on Scottish Independence and we all vote in favour of it, that would give the Scottish the push to leave the Union that you suggest they need. Surely?

However, I fear that we will be told off by the editor for going off-thread. This thread is all about those lovely trees/shaggy dogs/scribbles or whatever the hell they are!

[Richard]

By the way, in what way is the new logo "modern"? Yes, it's new. But not everything that is new is good (New Labour for example). Those using the word "modern" seem to be implying that it is done in a particular "modern" style that is somehow superior to previous styles.

Seeing as this "modern" logo looks scruffy and untidy I would be interested to know why this concept of "modern" is a good thing? Surely a smarter logo would be more appropriate for a modern professional political party, even if this isn't "modern" style?

[David Banks]

oh i see .. you only had a b/w pic for the welsh logo.
Well i realize that we don't deserve colour , ( dramatic pause) , not important enough ( fake sob)

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

In response to:
Daniel Vince-Archer | September 15, 2006 at 19:59
Your representation of the prevallence of Welsh as a language is as distorted as your allusion to Anna Lindt - it takes information and presents it out of context with the aim for cheap shots.

Consider the demographics of Wales and the fact that EVERY school in Wales is forced to impose Welsh on its pupils do consider how few speak Welsh much beyond the level of those 3 year olds you cite.

The claim that 600,000 people in Wales speak Welsh is based on counting every school child until they can give it up - likewise the FACT that the entire Taffia run QUANGOcracy of Wales is racist based upon a lingusistic interpretation of race.

Further you will have noted there is no deffinition of what being able to speak Welsh means - to the level of a greeting? the level of speaking with a 3 year old? kitchen Welsh? simple shopping Welsh? Technical Welsh? Commercial Welsh? or the rather pointless political Welsh? Was that North Walian? South Walian? or Carmarthen Welsh?

In passing why isn't the new 'Squiggle for Scotland' backed up by The Gaelic?

As for the cop out over S4C with the astounding subsidies and all these Welsh speakers you claim perhaps you can explain why S4C is even worse than the introspective BBC Wales or ITV Wales.

You choose to overlook the FACT that S4C's Welsh language coverage of The National Ass for Wales regularly drew an audience of ZERO yet BBC's equivalent in English reflects the linguistic usage never having had no audience without the subsidy.

Perhaps the Census will tell you howmany people have ever achieved degree level Welsh and which dialects they were in - I understand there are about 3 people with Doctorates in one or other of The Welsh language dialects, Dr. Tim Williams an outspoken supporter of opposition to the devolved irresponsibility of the EU's Regional Council in Wales risibly portrayed as The National Ass for Wales and implausibly and delusionally alluded to as The Welsh Ass Govt. by those on the make and the take!

I still want to know why 'Squiggle for Wales' from CCO is seemingly forced on the Welsh in a minority language alien to most of the population of Wales!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Alexander Drake]

Greg you are now my favourite poster on this site because of your "welter of self-doubt and sodomy" comment a few months ago. I remember splitting my sides with laughter at that. The imagery of that comment still makes me laugh.

Guys, give it a rest. Forty grand isn't a lot in the big scheme of things - yes I know its more than an Association's fete makes in a year, but you know what I mean. Relax. And the logo is fine - perhaps not my first choice, but it's fine and like DVA it's starting to grow on me.

[Derek]

Why no English Conservative Party?
I would like to say goodbye to Scotland Wales and N.Ireland.
Home Rule for England.
Cameron is so pro Scottish why doesn't he go to Scotland and stay there? He should stand for election to the Scottish Parliament.
Role on the Holyrood elections. Hopefully the SNP will paste New Labour and hold a referendum.

[Blimp]

I found a better logo for the conservatives on toilet paper this morning, straight after wiping me bum. Also, it took no effort, was very cheap and sums the tories up to a tee!

[Nichola Black]

They spent HOW MUCH deciding on how best to ignore England!!??

Well, they certainly spent enough to sell my vote elsewhere!

[Preston]

"Cymreig" is an incorrect spelling, surely?

[David]

Why is the new logo so naff looking? I like the idea of a tree, but why does it look so crappy? It is not even drawn properly, they should have hired a real artist to design it instead of an immature child.
Although anything is better than the crappy old torch logo which was stupid.

[Della Petch]

Paul, Southampton, you totally missed the point. Scotland can make its own decisions. It's time we in England were asked what we wanted. If you want to vote on Scottish decision, go to Scotland.

As Nichola above says, the new logos were deliberately designed to ignore the word England or English. This was not accidental and Cameron would have made that decision himself. The message could not be any clearer, if he spat in our faces, painted his blue, donned a skirt and sang Flower of Scotland!!

[Blimp]

Well said Nichola and Della (why is it always the girls that have the most balls?) Get lost Conservatives, get lost Nooooo labour, get lost the other lot - Its an English party we want and an English parliament!

[James Maskell]

"The message could not be any clearer, if he spat in our faces, painted his blue, donned a skirt and sang Flower of Scotland!!"

Anyone else grinning at the thought of Cameron in a skirt? You never know what politicians get up to on weekends...

[Monday Clubber]

Alexander Drake - Guys, give it a rest. Forty grand isn't a lot in the big scheme of things - yes I know its more than an Association's fete makes in a year, but you know what I mean. Relax. And the logo is fine

Is this a polite way of saying "Shut up, you're rocking the boat"?

£40,000 is a lot more than many associations make in several years and the logos are utterly pathetic. We have shelled out £40,000 to make the party into a laughing-stock.

A friend of mine who is a parliamentary candidate tells me he understands that several of the IDs on this site are pseudonyms for CCO staff, desperately "spinning" a pro-Cameron line.

I don't know if "Alexander Drake" comes into this category, but one could certainly be forgiven for jumping to that conclusion.

[jim gash]

How come there is no English Conserative Party.

[jim gash]

Do not apologise on my behalf about the Poll Tax Mr Cameron. The Poll Tax came about because the people in Scotland complained bitterly about the rating system.
The poll Tax was devised by a Scot for the people of Scotland by a fellow from I believe the Callander area. So stuff you apology where the sun don’t shine.

[Automated Robot]

"Is there a reason why the Welsh logo is in some language alien to almost everyone in Wales but not in the common language spoken by all in Wales?"

Ceidwadwyr is the noun and means "Conservative". It is close to ceidwad meaning keeper, saviour, custodian.

Cymreig is an adjective meaning "Welsh" and pertains to Wales or the Welsh culture. This is not a misspelling: Cymraeg refers to the Welsh language.

Welsh people everywhere will appreciate the depth, rhythm and richness of these common words. Not so those who hear only their own.

[Paul, Southampton]

Della,

I haven't missed the point at all. If you weren't so wrapped up in your own hysteria, you might be able to appreciate someone else's point of view. But as I said in my earlier post, this thread isn't about the Union, IT'S ABOUT THE BLOODY LOGO!!!!!

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi, I was amused at the thought put forward by several here who claim that Scotland has some sort of meaningfull say over its affairs as it is now like Wales directly ruled by diktat from the EU soviet through a staggeringly costly rubber stamping office and yet another tier of superannuated councillors.
I do fail to realise why some want to further diminish England by having its own EU council. These Regional Assemblies even when given a grandiose title are just a further bypass of Westminster where over 80% of all legislation is imposed by the undemocratic and very alien EUropean soviet.
I guess it matters little how dire the leaders of Parties or their footlings and logos are since ALL Law must be approved by the unelected apparatchiks of the EUropean soviet (ECA 1972 Section II Part 2).
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[UKout]

What matters is that the new logos won't clash when the ring of stars is superimposed.

[Neil C]

At the last GE, the Tories won the popular vote in England and this is how they are rewarded!

As many people have mentioned already; where is the English logo?

If/when England becomes independent, the Tories would probably be the governing party election after election.

[Scottish Conservative]

I assume this is the same Della Petch who on another thread said:

"Tough on terrorists? Not the Scottish variety, apparently. The silence is deafening."

men in white coats my dear, men in white coats.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"In response to:
Daniel Vince-Archer | September 15, 2006 at 19:59
Your representation of the prevallence of Welsh as a language is as distorted as your allusion to Anna Lindt - it takes information and presents it out of context with the aim for cheap shots."

Er, no it doesn't - the context of my point was your ignorant assertion that Welsh is 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales', which the official statistics I referred to have shown to be complete nonsense.

I see you've really gone to town constructing an argument full of more red herring than a Scandinavian fishing vessel to try and back up your point but, just like somebody allergic to soap, it just won't wash I'm afraid.

You said: Welsh is 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales'.
The government's survey said: 600,000 people in Wales (i.e. over one in five of the population) are able to speak Welsh.

End of story.

Diolch yn fawr a nos da.

[matt wright]

Agree with Daniel on this. Although most speak English, many can speak Welsh. In fact our Party helped the language flourish by introducing the Welsh Language Act. Something to be proud of,

Matt

[Afleitch]

Reading through this fills me with disbelief; as a Scottish Conservative the attitude shown by some here towards the situations in Wales and Scotland almost sickens me to the stomach. The Scottish and Welsh parties have had seperate logos used interchangably with the national logo for years, why all the fuss now?

[Alexander Drake]

Monday Clubber, the inference I was trying to say make was: "If you want to rant about the current direction of the Conservative Party, then personally I think you're crazy, but don't let me stop you. However, why not pick something more substantial to rant about than forty grand?"

FYI I am a fair-dinkum person, an ex-CCO staffer (thoroughly enjoyed working there), and an Australian now back home. I also try to stay in touch with a number of people I worked with there. No assumed names here - how about you, Monday?

These days I read the comments on this excellent site almost as much for pure entertainment value as to work out why the vast majority of the people who complete this site's surveys seem happy with Cameron, but maybe 80-90% of the postings are against him. Again - if you want to disagree with his direction one could mount many logical, reasoned, substanial arguments for that position, I'm sure. It's just a shame one doesn't seem them here that often.

[sandy mac]

oh no

[noddy]

The new logo look more like slippery elm to me, nothing like an oak. Now if the tory's had the thinking heads on they could have come up with a much better logo. Say a red rose.

[Terry]

Scottish Conservative - google SNLA and look for the recent threats to poison England's water supplies. They've been busy for years, but then you already know, don't you?

Are the media and your own police force lying? Take it up with them if you're not happy about it, or prove its not true.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,
I said: Welsh is 'some language alien to almost everyone in Wales'.
Which clearly is true since so few speak Welsh and less than 5% of the peoples of Wales have EVER passed any meaningful test of their ability to speak Welsh in any of its 3 very distinct linguistic dialects.

Many dedicated Welsh men and women proud of their regional origins speak no Welsh whatsoever.

Daniel reitterating Government propaganda:
>"The government's survey said: 600,000 people in Wales (i.e. over one in five of the population) are able to speak Welsh."<

Fails to address the unarguable fact that this shows they speak the language to the level of a 3 year old since it specified over 3!

The entire contention from Daniel in support of The National Ass for Wales' statistics fails to define the level to which it is spoken.

I rarely leave Wales & Monmouthshire and I very, very rarely hear Welsh spoken. The last time I met a monoglott with whom I could not communicate was a forester's wife in the forest near Brecon in 1956.

Compulsion in schools and the linguistic racism present in the parasitic Welsh QUANGOcracy has without doubt raised the prevallence of Welsh. I would expect Welsh to double to maybe 10% passing a meaningful test within the next few years, as a result of compulsion and spending a massive amount of money promoting the language, at the expense of the economic base in Wales, rural education and the Regional NHS, which steadily deteriorates, despite repatriation of some of the taxes levied by the EUropean soviet to try to prop up their extra tiers of apparatchiks.

For the record, in answer to your earlier question, Lady Guest sponsored one of the best gatherings and translations of The Mabinogian, the composite of Welsh and international folk tales told in Welsh, a read I commend to anyone in whatever their preferred language - though very few copies sell in Welsh even in the EU Region of Wales - now downgraded from a Principality to the same status as the costly and utterly pointless East Midlands or South West Regions of the EU in the vassal state of these United Kingdoms!

Devolved irresponsibility and some in England wish to further subjugate themselves , with an English Regional 'Paliament', when already Wesminster makes less than 20% of Britain's laws, the rest being imposed as law by Brusells surplanting democratic justice!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Automated Robot]

"Many dedicated Welsh men and women proud of their regional origins speak no Welsh whatsoever."

Any dedicated Welshman or woman is proud of their language and would support its preservation and promotion. As mentioned in an earlier post, Ceidwadwyr Cymreig might be translated as "custodian of Welsh culture" (Sept. 16th @ 12:10pm).

"they speak the language to the level of a 3 year old"

This is the most blunt of statistical instruments, as befits a census. However, in the interests of balance, quite apart from respondents' own experience of 3 year old speech, it is worth noting that many 3 year olds understand far more than they choose to articulate. There is the further complication of being brought up in a bi-lingual environment.

" I rarely leave... Monmouthshire and I very, very rarely hear Welsh spoken."

Get out more. Come north, you will find an enormous number of Welsh speakers who through resilience and resourcefulness have acquired a second language (English) but think, argue, swear, educate and woo in the language they love: Welsh.

[Hafanedd]

Mr. GL-W,

"Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" Welsh National Anthem loosely translated:

"Though foeman have trampled my land 'neath their feet,
The language of Cambria still knows no retreat;
The muse is not vanquished by traitor's fell hand,
Nor silenced the harp of my land."

But you would know that wouldn't you.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Indeed Hafanedd with the same clarity as the other verses of Our National anthem. Having heard the Welsh anthem less of recent years I am rusty on most of the verses but would, being from Wales and domicile in Monmouthshire, most likely make a better fist of it than John Redwood.
I return to my original point, since one assumes the aim of the New Tories is to apeal to the widest audience with 'squiggle' why is it not in English for Wales as less than 5% of all people in Wales have ever passed a meaningfull test in Welsh - best surely would have been bilingual to avoid offending the minority.
As also with the Scottish 'squiggle' should it not also be bilingual using also The Gallic?
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Monday Clubber]

FYI I am a fair-dinkum person, an ex-CCO staffer (thoroughly enjoyed working there), and an Australian now back home.

Well, Alex it seems that there is certainly more to the "CCO" theory than meets the eye, although I doubt that current employees will be outing themselves as readily as you.

Actually, I have seen documentary proof that CCO regularly monitor other conservative-orientated sites and take screen dumps of posts for their files. As an ex-CCO man maybe you can confirm?

the vast majority of the people who complete this site's surveys seem happy with Cameron, but maybe 80-90% of the postings are against him

That's probably because most posters, myself included, have not been asked to take part in the survey. However I note that Cameron's approval rating is on the way down.

It's also because articulate people who are passionate about politics and political ideas (as opposed to political careers or "yah-boo my team's winning") are unlikely to be particularly enthusiastic about a bland "construct man" like Cameron and the ideological shapeshifters who support him.

Sorry that some posts here are not to your liking but the problem with democracy is that it sometimes democks.

[Christopher Reeves]

Why are we only complaining now ?

The Tory's did just as bad a job in the elections last year with...

"putting Wales first" "putting Scotland first" and "putting Britain first"

Labour are just as bad, England will never get a mention for as long as we don't stand up for ourselves, for god sake what's the matter, why don't people in this country stand up for themselves?

[Richard Gadsden]

The reason there are only three logos is that that is all that the Electoral Commission allows to be registered for ballot papers. The GB parties all use three logos, one for England that doesn't mention England, one for Scotland and a single version for Wales - sometimes in Welsh, sometimes in English, sometimes bilingual and sometimes with no words at all.

The Conservatives are the only UK party and the legislation allowing the registration of logos forgot about the NI Conservatives.