David Cameron's speech to the Scottish Party

Speaking to the Party in Scotland David Cameron points to the 1980s and the poll tax as a big part of the reason for Scotland's increasingly unhappy relationship with England:

"A series of blunders were committed in the 1980s and 90s of which the imposition of the Poll Tax was the most egregious.  We all know why it happened - the rates revaluation and the rest of it.  But the decision to treat Scotland as a laboratory for experimentation in new methods of local government finance was clumsy and unjust.  On devolution too we fought on against the idea of a Scottish Parliament long after it became clear that it was the settled will of the people.  It’s no compensation to see the Labour Party displaying the same insensitivity today.  It weakens the Union and reminds Scots of Tory mistakes.  For example, the destruction of much-loved and historic regiments like the Black Watch by this government reprises the unwanted regimental mergers initiated in the early 90s."

Another big theme of the speech was resistance to those who want to address the alleged England-to-Scotland subsidy:

"There’s another grievance held by those in England who seek to dismember Britain.  They want to end the Barnett Formula.  Politicians like Ken Livingstone regard the Scots as subsidy junkies who get far more of the national pot than they’re entitled to.  Again, I’m sorry - it’s more complicated than that.  Other areas within the UK are subsidised more heavily than Scotland is.  Nowhere outside London has as large and profitable a financial services sector as Edinburgh’s.  Let’s remember that before throwing accusations around.  We all know that families can fall out bitterly over money.  I’m determined that won’t happen to the British family.  We’re bigger and better than that."

In the final part of his remarks the Tory leader worries that English attitudes to Scotland are a large part of the reason for Scots' increasing openness to independence:

"Whether it’s Russ Abbott-style lampooning or the inevitable aggressive Glaswegian drunk in TV programmes, the cumulative effect can be depressing.  Even as an Englishman, I find it a bit embarrassing.  Another aspect of English cultural insensitivity that rears its head in the media is the vexed question of sporting identity.  Why is that Scottish sportsmen and women who win are habitually claimed by English media commentators as ‘British’ only to be promptly redesignated as ‘Scottish’ the moment they lose?

One other aspect of the interface between the Scots and the English causes offence.  And here there’s absolutely no excuse.  Scottish banknotes are every bit as good as those issued by the Bank of England.  That’s something everyone working in shops or other parts of the service economy anywhere in the UK should know.  Yet Scots often have to endure the indignity of having their money examined by suspicious staff south of the border as if it’s come straight out of a Monopoly box.  Sometimes Scottish fivers and tenners are simply refused.  Of course, it’s not the end of the world but it’s hard to think of a clearer demonstration of disrespect.  It seems to say to Scots - “Do things our way - or take a hike.”

Instead of deriding Scots as chippy or difficult, isn’t it time that English people of good will educated themselves?  Part of the problem is that some English commentators don’t seem to know what to think of Scotland - when they can be bothered to think at all.  They appear seriously confused.  One moment they deride Scots as hopeless drunks and beggars.  The next they complain that England is run by something called the Scottish Raj, a race of superhumans led by John Reid and Kirsty Wark."

Full speech here.

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Comments

[James Maskell]

The British family? Its called the Union...apparently a few hundred years ago a piece of paper make Scotland and England friends... So basically Cameron does a bit of England bashing in that speech?

[Zhukov]

Very interesting stuff... perhaps Cameron will be the first Conservative PM to 'get' Scotland in a very long time.

All we need now are a load of new MSPs with a bit of new thinking and new direction - not putting money on that yet!

[Jonathan M Scott]

Brilliant speech from David Cameron. For too long Scotland has been neglected - indeed, even harshly treated - by our Party (particularly in the 1980s), and it's good to see that our leader is taking a different attitude.

[Richard]

I don't suppose Cameron is aware of the strength of anti-English feeling in Scotland that sometimes comes across as racism? I know it's trivial but Scottish support for any football team that plays England is a cultural manifestation of this.

Ah but of course, we're not allowed to point out the faults of minorities. Only those big bad WASPs.

"Yet Scots often have to endure the indignity of having their money examined by suspicious staff south of the border as if it’s come straight out of a Monopoly box. "

Shock, horror - not everyone down South has seen a Scottish note. What ignorant peasants we are. Actually I do know what they look like and am quite willing to use them but I can fully understand why some people might at first be a bit unsure of them.

[James Maskell]

Cameron has a moan about shopkeepers who look on Scottish money with disrespect...whats he on about? The reason why many shopkeepers, including myself, react the way we do is that we dont accept Bank of Scotland money unless we are absolutely certain its not fake...which I wouldnt know. As a rule I accept only Bank of England money.

Its not so much about disrespect as watching out for ourselves so we dont get conned... I can easily recognise a genuine fiver, tenner or twenty if its Bank of England money. If its Bank of Scotland though, I simply wouldnt know.

I wonder...how many shopkeepers has Cameron spoken to about the Bank of Scotland money issue? Im willing to put money down hes never done it...

[Don]

This speech is very clever. DC really seems to understand the Scottish psyche.

I never thought I'd say this when he was first elected but this is a guy who could actually help us win seats up here.

[James Burdett]

An interesting and fairly balanced speech from Cameron. Of course it is going to a lot more than one speech to solve the long term issues affecting Conservative performance North of the border. This is a good start though providing of course that no-one disappears down comfortable bolt-holes of anti-Englishness, anti-Scottishness or as seems a particular favourite here knee-jerk anti-Cameron diatribes.

[Og]

I was on a 137 bus in Battersea years ago and the conductor, a nice west indian woman, didn't like the look of my Clydesdale Bank tenner. Had never heard of the Clydesdale, in fact. We had an Ask the Audience moment, and a show of hands supported the note as kosher. She happily relented.

This was not a difficult speech for Cameron to make but I suppose only he and IDS could have made it, given that Major and Hague and Howard were in government when Maggie went bonkers over the poll tax.

But it looks a good speech. Thank heavens he didn't try to play the Caledonian card by alluding to his Cameron roots. It would have gone down quite badly in Scotland, but would have been a massive gaffe for many English voters.

[Martin Cole]

Anyone yet noticed how the Daily Mail is covering the speech? English ignorance is apparently the problem.

Yet another major clanger dropped by this closet Scot.

[Zhukov]

Martin - it will be interesting how the Scottish Daily Mail handles the story.

The Mail have a habit of praising "courageous" comments moaning about the Scots but mysteriously don't print them in their paper north of the border.

[anoan]

A little less racism from Scots toward the English might help preserve the Union too!

[Callum]

So far the response to the speech in Scotland has been encouraging. Scots like to think of themselves as fair minded so we may yet see progress.

Well done to DC for trying something different.

[T Sinden]

Mr Cameron said "Every part of Britain is entitled to full and equal respect.
Let's go forward together - and make the Union work for all of us."

- so can we have a parliament for England fully equal to Scotland's ? Nope

- and can we have equal constituency sizes thtoughout Great Britain ? No

- and can we have an end to the Barnett Rules which we English pay for but were never consulted about ? - don't be stupid

- and can we ? - look just shut up will you and remember you are British not English .Think of the British family and don't rock the boat -

- but,look , that's not fa-- door slams in face .

It is because of Cameron's blinkered attitude and his complete blanking out of any awareness of English sensitivities and rights - and others with similar mentalities like him in all the parties - that the Union loks quite likely to come to an end in the near future .

[Richard]

"An interesting and fairly balanced speech from Cameron."

I would consider it balanced if he criticised anti-English sentiment in Scotland as well.

[Kristian Shanks]

OK one of things that really bothers me is that when English people are criticising the Scots, or vice-versa, that people call it racism. IT'S NOT RACISM. Just stop calling it that, please! That is a very dangerous and harmful word to be throwing around in this discussion. All of us on the right resent how the 'racist' label can stigmatise individuals and hamper reasoned debate, so lets not descend to that please. The English and Scots are not different 'races'. One of those groups just happens to speak with a slightly funny accent, that's all. They had a debate on Radio Five Live about this topic the other week, and all these Scots were ringing saying it was 'racist' that English people were saying that there shouldn't be a Scottish Prime Minister or that the ability of Scottish MPs to vote on all matters should be curbed given that they have their own Parliament. It wasn't racism. Can we just stop using this word in this debate.

Additionally, I have a problem with Cameron being so one-sided in favour of the Jocks in his critique of Anglo-Scottish relations. I'm English, I lived in the North-East of Scotland for six years, and frankly, they don't like English people up there (and it's one of the many, many reasons why I'm never going back there). They just don't. So I resent the implication that it's just a one-way thing. Many Scottish people have a history of being very prejudiced towards the English, so lets cut this one-sided crap, can we?

Now then, there are a number of points to make clear. The Barnett Formula is something I don't have too much of a problem with. Rural areas tend to require more state funding per head than urban ones because of the difficulty of having a good infrastructure and decent public services in those areas. Given that Scotland is, to use a Denis Thatcher quotation out of context, miles and miles of bugger all, its hardly surprising that it appears that they get more money. Now I don't know whether Cameron is right when he says that some areas of the UK get higher funding per head than Scotland, but I can see that being true.

The problem is the constitutional havoc created by the existence of the Scottish Parliament (and the Welsh Assembly). This is what I strongly object to. I do not like the fact that Scottish MPs can vote on measures that do not affect their own constituents. It is completely inequitable. This also creates problems when we're talking about whether Scottish MPs can hold certain Cabinet positions or even become Prime Minister. My own solution (and what I believe to be the only logical solution) would be the abolition of the Scottish Parliament, but that is never going to happen. The only other solution is to create an English Parliament with the same rights and priveleges over England that Holyrood has over Scotland. However, this would fatally undermine Westminster, as the only areas left under its auspices would be taxation and foreign policy, so I can't see this happening either. The problem here is that Scotland and Wales are treated as special cases. Either they are part of the union, and subject themselves to the exact same laws and processes that we English do, or they aren't part of the union.

The point about how much representation Scotland should have at Westminster is a good one. Certainly I should think that if the current system is to be maintained, then they should have far fewer MPs. But then you're gonna be asking Scottish MPs to vote themselves out of a job which surely is never going to happen.

We are either a union or we aren't. If we are, then Scotland, Wales and NI should be subject to the policies of Westminster like England is. They should not be a special case, which is currently, what they are.

[kingbongo]

I am very disappointed with this speech - and for my wife who suffered frequent anti-English sentiment when she ived in Aberdeen it's the final straw and she won't be voting for Cameron anytime soon.

I'm not sure why Scottish chippiness is always England's fault and the banknote thing was very silly. One of our local Arts centres has been conned a number of times by fake Scottish notes - they no longer accept them because they don't know what they should look like. Cameron could have schmoozed the Scots without needing to blame everything on the English. There were sensible points to be made and he made them well but the tone was unpleasant towards the English for no reason.

[Denis Cooper]

T Sinden @ 19:31 -

"and can we have equal constituency sizes thtoughout Great Britain ? No"

As far as Scotland and England are concerned the constituencies are now pretty much equal in size, ie in the number of electors. Scotland has 9.1% of the seats for 8.5% of the UK population, 2003 estimates, so maybe it should lose 4 seats out of the 59. The much bigger problem is that 41 of those 59 seats have Labour MPs, and there is just one Tory MP. Yet in 1955 the Tories got over half of the votes and held of half the seats in Scotland.

It's Wales which is significantly over-represented at present.

Good speech from Cameron, I hope he means what he says.

[MH]

I hear he's travelling to Dublin next to apologize for the English behaviour in the Irish potato famine.

Please, let's just rebuild Hadrian's Wall, end their subsisidies and have an English parliament for the English.

[Denis Cooper]

You'd better check with the Novacastrians about that, as Hadrian's wall actually runs through the middle of their city!

[Denis Cooper]

Oh, and Newcastle is one of those areas of England which is subsidised just as heavily as areas of Scotland. The answer is to cut business taxes in such areas to stimulate their local economies and increase their tax revenues, so that they become more self-sufficient. Not dump them.

[Colin M]

A brilliant speech. One of our major problems North of the Border has been the divergence of the politics of patriotism from the rest of the centre-right agenda. This is one of the main causes of the peculiarly low level of support for the cnetre-right Party in Scotland. Afterall what would the Republicans be without American patriotism, the Tories without the patriotic/eurosceptic vote in England, the Liberals without Australian patriotism etc.

This speech seems to tackle this issue in a quite Cameroonian way, dealing with attitudes, perceptions and sentiments - bank notes, sportspeople etc. - rather than policy. This approach is often criticised but since national identity is an essentially emotional issue I think this the correct approach.

It also contrasts very favourably with Jack McConnell's attempt to tap in to this sentiment in an attitudinal, non-policy based way. He did it by saying he wasnt supporting England which appeared negative and uncharitable however much many others felt the same. DC has essentially pitched his tent on the same ground but done it by using examples which display his vastly superior political skills.

Our problem in Scotland has been that we have allowed nationalism and patriotism to seem synonymous. By arguing against independence in terms of Scottish chippiness, economic deficiencies, parochialism etc we have become infected by the kind of self-loathing than more normally infects the liberal elite.

The effect of this rejection of prevailing sentiments in the social policy sphere is well known - perception of nastiness, loss of middle class, educated and younger people's support. This has been bad enough.

However, the effect of a centre right party not just rejecting prevailing social values but also the prevailing patriotic sentiments and national allegiances have been devastating. The insight that I hope is to be detected from this speech is that there is a recognition that to defeat nationalism and defend the Union, unionism must also be about national self confidence and patriotism rather than the self loathing into which it often descends.

Maybe Im inferring too much but was strongly encouraged by this speech. Think DC might have 'it'.

[Henry Cook]

Great speech DC. To those who say he should have also criticised anti-English sentiment in Scotland, I think that would have been a mistake. While he is no doubt aware that it exists and is a problem, the point about this speech is that he is offering an olive branch to the Scots. He is holding his hands up and saying enough is enough, lets move on from past grievances. Its and extremely generous speech, and all the better for it. He has made the first move, if you like, in repairing a severely damaged relationship.

[Andrew]

"Oh, and Newcastle is one of those areas of England which is subsidised just as heavily as areas of Scotland."

A major factor behind the level of Scottish spending is that it simply costs more to deliver the same services in areas of low population density, with poor/slow transport links (ie the islands). You could say that country dwellers implicitly accept poorer services, but that's a separate argument - and one that applies UK wide, not specifically to Scotland.

As for Cameron's speech: well delivered, with an interesting new approach. Unionists for decades have done little but expect to be agreed with - Cameron is asking for an intellectual renewal of that position ..... a positive declaration rather than sitting on a stagnant policy position. If the latter remains, the union will go the way of everything stagnant: it will die.

[ENGLISH!]

Lets be honest about this, most English people can not be bothered to really spend much time thinkng about Scotland or the Scots, it just does not concern us. On the other hand, far too many Scots spend their time thinking how they can hate the English. Look at football, as an Englishman I support any British team, do the Scots?
Of course not!
The real racism in this country is that meated out by the Scots to the English. I was once told where to go in no uncertain times whilst in Scotland simply because I was English. Would that happen here, no.
Would you be beaten up for wearing a Scotland shirt in England. Not likely. Would you be beaten up for wearing an England shirt in Scotland. Far more likely. As is documented by CRE statistics which have consistantly shown an increase in racist incidents committed on English people living in Scotland.

Cameron is so wide of the mark on this one it beggers belief. It is about time Scottish racism to the English was dealt with. Many Scots have such a perverse idea of history. I mean most of them still believe they are Celts! Few of them even understand that the south east up to forth was part of a Saxon kingdom. They are they ones who rely on a false history and use this to put forward anti-english arguments. Get real Cameron!

[ENGLISH!]

Lets be honest about this, most English people can not be bothered to really spend much time thinkng about Scotland or the Scots, it just does not concern us. On the other hand, far too many Scots spend their time thinking how they can hate the English. Look at football, as an Englishman I support any British team, do the Scots?
Of course not!
The real racism in this country is that meated out by the Scots to the English. I was once told where to go in no uncertain times whilst in Scotland simply because I was English. Would that happen here, no.
Would you be beaten up for wearing a Scotland shirt in England. Not likely. Would you be beaten up for wearing an England shirt in Scotland. Far more likely. As is documented by CRE statistics which have consistantly shown an increase in racist incidents committed on English people living in Scotland.

Cameron is so wide of the mark on this one it beggers belief. It is about time Scottish racism to the English was dealt with. Many Scots have such a perverse idea of history. I mean most of them still believe they are Celts! Few of them even understand that the south east up to forth was part of a Saxon kingdom. They are they ones who rely on a false history and use this to put forward anti-english arguments. Get real Cameron!

[lucy74]

Have I encountered Anti-English sentiment during my 18 years living in Glasgow? Yes of course. Have I encountered Anti-Scottish sentiment in England in my 10 years in London? Yes of course. Do Manchester United fans slag off Man City fans? Yes of course.

Being half Scottish and half English, I can of course sit comfortably on the fence but accusations of "they started it first" are unhelpful and more than a little childish.

Cameron has made a great speech today which actually makes me think for the first time in many, many years that the Conservatives could actually be taken seriously once more in Scotland and that at least deserves some respect.

[Ted]

A strong & sensible speech. On patriotic grounds those of us who are proud to be British welcome a Conservative leader who comes out fighting for the union - yes there are strains, there are the "football" nationalists in both countries and Scots national pride does seem to be celebrated while England's is feared.
Politically astute too in two areas - the next major elections are the Scots & Welsh in 2007 and EVoEL must not be perceived as anti-Scots but about fairness in the family. Brown will continue to attack any proposals we put forward as being "English nationalism" and the Tories as little Englanders. Difficult to do if we are serious players in Scotland, pushing conservative principles.

[verulamgal]

So Boy Wonder thinks 'Scottish banknotes are as every bit as good as those issue by the Bank of England' does he?

That was not my experience in Malaysia a couple of years ago.Arriving back in KL from Edinburgh, I still had Scottish notes with me. It was extremely difficult to exchange them and when I could, their exchange value was worth far less then a Bank of England note

[Della Petch]

So Cameron thinks the English are ignorant, disrespectful and portray Scots as drunks?

Easy way to fix that, then. Close the British Parliament, then Charles Kennedy can claim it was all the fault of the English for portraying him that way.

The only way to increase votes in Scotland is to slag off the English. Even Gordon Brown hasn't sunk that low!

Incidentally, the link to the Scottish Sunday Times also has a story about the Scottish National Liberation Army's latest antics, in plotting to poison England's water supply and kill as many English people as possible.

Tough on terrorists? Not the Scottish variety, apparently. The silence is deafening.

[Aileen Brown]

If the truth was told, the problems are because the English are no longer so ignorant of Scotland's favourable treatment and their Auld Enemy mentality. Cameron must surely wish, deep down, that we had remained ignorant, so he didn't have to address the imbalance.

I saw a rugby match on TV, between Scotland and England and a bunch of Scots had dressed up like Mel Gibson in drag, painted their faces and were chanting "Oooh Ooh" noises at the English team, who politely refrained from laughing. It was cringingly embarassing. We sat in stunned silence, witnessing Scotland's answer to the Taliban.

I knew a little about Scotland's sectarian problems and their racist problems about the English. Yet the full extent of that behaviour was never apparent to me), until I started reading the Scottish press and in particular, their letters pages. Hate filled bile is the only way to describe it. They have been obsessing about the English for far too long to claim anything other than the Fatal Attraction syndrome.

England has always been a forward moving, progressive nation and Scotland is starting to look positively medieval in its attitudes and behaviour. I'm glad they don't claim to be British; they're going backwards, not forwards. I'm glad the English don't dress up in medieval costumes and revert to a dead language, just try and feel special.

England must be given her independence; not just because of the democratic and funding imbalance, but because it drags her down, and prevents progress, by having such a nation saddled to her back.

Yes, David Cameron secretly wishes the English had remained ignorant of Scotland's antics.

[Monday Clubber]

A series of blunders were committed in the 1980s and 90s of which the imposition of the Poll Tax was the most egregious.

More attempts to rewrite history made by someone who wasn't even "there",

The move to the Poll Tax started was led by Scottish Tories when they raised Cain (at their annual conference - attended by Thatcher)about the quinquennial domestic revaluation.

One would have thought such an event had never previously occurred. Anyway, it was the Scots Tories who set the ball rolling towards the disastrous denouement.

On another point I see the same old IDs endlessly popping up with "great speech" and other unquestioning rhubarb rhubarb style nonsense intended to big up Cameron.

I am informed that some of these pro-Cameron IDs are sockpuppets of CCO employees, and I must say I can well believe it.

[EML]

This sort of speech had to be done, before anything more serious could be said by the Conservatives in Scotland.

From what Cameron has done and said so far, he seems to have a very detailed and long-term strategy to reverse our fortunes - and for the most part it is working. I hope he and his team will pay just as much attention to Scotland and Wales, because there's a lot to do.

[Della Petch]

EML says: I hope he and his team will pay just as much attention to Scotland and Wales, because there's a lot to do.

Great, that's all we need. Cameron touring Wales to apologise that the English weren't in their houses on the days that they were torched.

The pro-Cameron-slagging-the-English-off, on this forum, just demonstrates how far removed from reality the political parties in the British government are.

They'd sell their grannies to the knackers yard, if it got them just one more vote. Power corrupts, but just look how the desperate quest for power has corrupted the Conservatives.

Morally bankrupt from the top down

[Denis Cooper]

For goodness sake, Della. I'm an English nationalist - and until recently I've been called "Nazi", "fascist", "racist" for my pains - but I'm also a British Unionist.

Why? Because apart from the blood links between the English and Scots, and their immensely fruitful synergy since the Union, it is no more in the long term interests of England to have its northern border exposed now than it was in 1707.

If you weren't so blinded by your hatred of the Scots - and the Welsh too, it now seems, and maybe the Cornish would come after that - you would see that.

Unless of course all this constant boiling indignation about the injustices heaped upon the poor English is feigned, and in fact you're working to a different agenda - the most obvious candidate being the Brussels "divide and rule" agenda.

[Della Petch]

LOL, Denis. You've just accused accused me of being racist towards myself.
Nice one.

[Denis Cooper]

No, I haven't accused you of being "racist" towards anyone.

[Opinicus]

Well what do you expect if you elect a leader called Cameron!

The rise of English nationalism is a fact. It is a popular force despairingly ignored and belittled by the liberal media for fear of what it can achieve. Properly harnessed it could sweep us back into office with a really radical right wing agenda.

Cameron has thrown it all away. I wonder if Farage will pick this up?

[Afleitch]

I'm pleased with the speech. As a Scotsman myself, I find it difficult to get our message across because of a resentment of the Conservatives when in power, in particular the introduction of the 'Poll Tax' a year before the rest of the nation was seen as a bit of a 'trial run'. We have important elections in May and this speech will go some way to allow us to regain some of our lost support, much of which has leeched to the SNP or the Liberal Democrats.

[David]

Re the money: I was in a cafe run by Italians, and they were refusing to accept Scottish banknotes from a customer. I swopped the money for some of mine, I then had a similar problem. I like the comment from Kristian,'Its not racist, one lot happen to speak with a funny accent thats all,' could you let us all now who exactly speaks with the 'funny accent' bet its not the English. Could anyone out there tell me when Dave will stop apologising? I think he could earn himself a new name: Apology Dave. Does he wear a hair shirt?

[Opinicus]

Denis Cooper
English nationalism has got nothing to do with EU regionalism. EN is probably our biggest defence against the EU.
The political pressures that EN would whip up, especially if taken as far as English independence, create excatly the sort of political opportunity that we would require to try and withdraw from the EU. The sort of new thinking that would allow us to become independent from Scotland, predispose to freeing ourselves from the greater shackles of Brussels.
Trying to hold the status quo together produces the opposite political effects of inertia, danegeld and poltical timidity. These teach voters that we are dependent - that nothing can be done.

I have now officially given up on Cameron. He may yet have his hand forced by the Scots nats. If they win next May as seems likely then they will hold a referendum on Scots Independence. I will take a suite at the Caledonian for the duration to assist with their campaign - by leafletting for our Party and being as offensively English as I can on the doorstep.

[Ted]

Happily with the plurality of parties we have there is are parties other than the Conservative & Unionist Party that English nationalists can choose to support if their purpose is the break-up of the UK.

I am proud to be English by choice (ancestors from England & migration to England) and British by birth. I believe that the various peoples of these islands gave to the world a great deal through ideas and values. We did this better united than we would have done separately. As Gordon Brown pointed out nearly half of Scots have an English born partner or family connections in England - so at least 2 and a half million English have a Scots born partner or family in Scotland based on todays generation forgetting the mix of ancestry that creates the English.

Cameron apologised for our party making wrong decisions - a good thing in a politician. We were wrong politically to impose the poll tax on Scotland in advance and against the wishes of most Scots MPs - just as Labour would be wrong to use Scots MPs to make laws that apply only in England that are opposed by majority of English MPs.

[Wallenstein]

If Cameron broke wind one or two members of his dwindling fan club would be chanting "fantastic, really humane, thoughtful speech"

Trouble is, these sycophants are so far up "Dave"s back passage the wretched man is probably physically incapable of delivering the showstopping ripsnorter.

[Denis Cooper]

Jonathan,

As far as Brussels is concerned Scotland is just a European Region, one division of "Union territory". There's no reason to suppose that would always be the case: eventually it might become administratively convenient or politically expedient to organise that part of "Union territory" in another way.

England similarly is part of "Union territory" (and it even has that name on the official map now, inserted across the midlands), but as we know the Union would very much like to re-organise that part of its territory on entirely different lines.

Dissolution of the Anglo-Scottish Union would be a huge triumph for Brussels, and it would leave both parts vulnerable to further depredations.

Incidentally, if the UK was broken up that certainly wouldn't mean that any of its parts would automatically be outside the EU. That would be another decision.

It's not as if voters in Scotland are keeping voters in England locked in the EU.

[Denis Cooper]

Just remember those signs at the European Commission which Daniel Hannan mentions from time to time.

They say: "Europe - Your Country". Not England, or Scotland, or the UK, but "Europe" - "a Europe of Regions and Cities". It's an old idea - "divide and rule".

[Eleanor Justice]

Ihave never heard such a sycophantic load of rubbish in my life ,suck up to the Scots and the English have to lay down and beg forgiveness ,if the Conservatives are pleased with this shamefull toadying they should never be in Government again,And if "Dave" thinks this will win him one Scottish vote he is sadly mistaken,he has already lost this English one .memo to Tory head office GET RID!

[Lord Haw Haw]

This is the first Tory leader's speech to get favourable coverage in the Scottish media in living memory. The only negative coverage in the Scottish press today is some selected quotes from this web site maoning about the new logo. Another great contribution to a Conservative victory from Conservativehome!

[Martin Cole]

Last June, as reported on my blog,Teetering Tories, David Cameron had the following exchange with Andrew Marr on Sunday AM as transcribed by the BBC:

ANDREW MARR: Sure - another area of constitutional argument just at the moment is the whole business of the Scots and the English. Lots of people are saying now there should be English votes for English laws - Ken Clarke is clearly attracted by that - and there’s quite hubbub now saying that the Scots are getting too much public money, that the old Barnett formula, in fact Joel Barnett himself has said this, needs to be looked at again. Are the Scots getting too much public money at the moment, proportionately?

DAVID CAMERON: I don’t have any plans to change the arrangements. Obviously we’re in opposition, we have the opportunity to look at these things and we should do so. But I don’t have any plans to make changes. And we should look at funding on the basis of need. And I think that’s the right way, right way round. But I want, you know, I am a passionate Unionist, I think that Scotland brings a huge amount to the United Kingdom. The Scottish people bring a huge amount to the United Kingdom and I don’t want, and I’m a Cameron, there is quite a lot of Scottish blood flowing through these veins.

Further comment on the dilemma posed by this contradiction with yesterday' assertion 'No one is prouder of being English than I am' by this same 'Cameron' is on today's Teetering Tories.

[Stephen Tolkinghorne]

It's funny how those living in Scotland think that it's such a good thing to help 'Get the message across'. Scots will not vote Tory, even if you bribed them with nightly free deep fried pizza and kebab.

Defaecating on the English has been a constant NuLabour tactic since coming into office. It seems Cameron is copying Tony Bliar in even more things. All he's going to do is put off English voters.

Anti-English sentiment in Scotland is entirely born of ignorance, xenophobia and watching rubbish like Braveheart too often. It's these fires which are regularly stoked by the sleazy and corrupt leftie politicians who seek to make political capital. Cameron is falling into the trap of believing that they've got genuine grievances. They haven't.

[Opinicus]

Denis
I am as unkeen on the EU as you but I see English Nationalism as a way out. Of course it is a separate argument but the political storm that set off English Nationalism could very easily be used to get us out of the EU too. The rise of nationalist feeling is useful to both aims. We're never going to leave the EU, even if we ever manage a referendum on the subject, unless the voter believes we can manage on our own in the outside world. All the media and an innate love for the status quo is telling him not to risk it. A constitutional upheaval like English independence or even a new parliament would open the possibility to real scrutiny. When English voters no longer paying the Barnet formula and keeping the whole of the wealth of the City to themselves see income tax drop and Scottish income tax rise to cope with their welfare dependency, they will be open to the question how much more would it drop if we didnt have to pay into Brussels too. Scotland doesnt vote Tory and isn't going to vote Tory again any time soon. This speech has done nothing but annoy Englishmen who are tired of people apologising for things we dont feel guilty about. Cameron's real worry is that if we do get independence he will have to be on the first coach back across the border with Brown and the rest of the cabinet.

[Denis Cooper]

"the English have to lay down and beg forgiveness" -

No, if Cameron is seeking forgiveness it's for the Tory party, not for the English.

Quite right: next he should go to parts of the north of England, and to the south west, and to Wales, and seek forgiveness there too.

"Scots will not vote Tory" -

A lot of them used to vote Tory, over half the votes and seats across Scotland in 1955, and there's no reason why eventually they shouldn't do so again.

[Ian Lambton]

Groooovey Dave is 'right on' and more power to him.

Groooovey Dave is obviously wholeheartedly committed to an English Parliament and should be given the Scotch Darwin Award.

Here's to English Independence (with help from Groooovey Dave)!

[Denis Cooper]

I just don't buy this argument that if we break up our country then one or more of the fragments will more easily escape from the EU.

Fact: out of 646 Westminster MPs, 529 or 82% are elected in England.

Fact: out of the 529 MPs elected in England, so far only 6 (5 Tory, 1 Labour) are prepared to have their names listed as supporters of the Better Off Out campaign.

Not fact, but a reasonable conjecture: if a member of an English Parliament was elected for this constituency, he would be little different in his attitudes from the present Westminster MP for this constituency.

Hypothesis: whatever may be confidently asserted by some nationalists both sides of the border, it's impossible to calculate whether overall people in England are subsidising people in Scotland by some billions a year, or the other way round; let alone whether UK residents who identify themselves as "English" are subsidising those who identify themselves as "Scottish", or the other way round.

Fact: but while it may be some billions net passing one way or the other between the two parts of the UK, we know that being in the EU is costing the UK as whole far more, at least £50 billion a year and possibly as much as £250 billion a year.

[Opinicus]

"A lot of them used to vote Tory, over half the votes and seats across Scotland in 1955, and there's no reason why eventually they shouldn't do so again."

And no reason why the Liberals cant rule in Westminster again.

Everything's possible not everything's likely

[Denis Cooper]

Ian Lambton, there can be no "English Independence" within the EU, and if a sovereign English Parliament was elected tomorrow it wouldn't vote to leave.

[Dulouz]

David Cameron says a decent and noble thing that people should respect each other and that mayve the English should attempt to learn about Scotland in the same way every Scot from School to sport to TV learns about the English.

Rubbish they cry. There is too much respect and understanding of Scots. Here are some examples that prove him right. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad:

Og - [being Scottish would] "have gone down quite badly in Scotland, but would have been a massive gaffe for many English voters."

Martin Cole - "Yet another major clanger dropped by this closet Scot"

Sorry guys for being Scottish. I mean if it disgusts you so much then maybe I should just hide it? If it also freaks out England so much then the country really has problems.
------------------------------------
T Sinden - "so can we have a parliament for England fully equal to Scotland's ? Nope"

Of-course that big thing in London that has been in existence for so many years has always given the Scots equal respect to England. Get real. It is a fact of life that England totally dominates the Union in every way. An example? Most English people don't want nuclear weapons on their soil. Most Scots don't want nuclear weapons on their soil. Who wins?
-----------------------------------
Kingbongo - "I am very disappointed with this speech - and for my wife who suffered frequent anti-English sentiment when she ived in Aberdeen it's the final straw and she won't be voting for Cameron anytime soon."

Well I have been spat on and nearly assaulted in London for having the audacity to buy a drink with a Scottish accent. By your logic the English are all anti-Scottish.
------------------------------------
ENGLISH! - "Cameron is so wide of the mark on this one it beggers belief. It is about time Scottish racism to the English was dealt with. Many Scots have such a perverse idea of history. I mean most of them still believe they are Celts! Few of them even understand that the south east up to forth was part of a Saxon kingdom. They are they ones who rely on a false history and use this to put forward anti-english arguments. Get real Cameron!"

See the above on this racism nonsense. When did the English turn into wallflowers? Every Scot who has ever went to England has experienced some anti-Scottish sentiment so you are not alone my friend.

"On the other hand, far too many Scots spend their time thinking how they can hate the English. Look at football, as an Englishman I support any British team, do the Scots?
Of course not!
The real racism in this country is that meated out by the Scots to the English. I was once told where to go in no uncertain times whilst in Scotland simply because I was English. Would that happen here, no.
Would you be beaten up for wearing a Scotland shirt in England. Not likely. Would you be beaten up for wearing an England shirt in Scotland. Far more likely."

Have you ever been to Glasgow? There are many English shirts on show without any bother.
--------------------------------------
Della Petch - "Tough on terrorists? Not the Scottish variety, apparently. The silence is deafening."

Oh my goodness. Did I just read that? Are you feeling okay?
---------------------------------------
Aileen Brown - "I saw a rugby match on TV, between Scotland and England and a bunch of Scots had dressed up like Mel Gibson in drag, painted their faces and were chanting "Oooh Ooh" noises at the English team, who politely refrained from laughing. It was cringingly embarassing. We sat in stunned silence, witnessing Scotland's answer to the Taliban."

Of-course English football fans are great ambassadors aren't they? The difference is I don't have such a small mind that I think this sums up the English, as you seem to think this sums up the whole Scottish nation.
----------------------------
Stephen Tolkinghorne - "Scots will not vote Tory, even if you bribed them with nightly free deep fried pizza and kebab."

Ian Lambton - "Groooovey Dave is obviously wholeheartedly committed to an English Parliament and should be given the Scotch Darwin Award."

Here are men who either knowingly insult Scots by calling them Scotch and say all they eat are kebabs and deep fried Pizza, or they do know they are insulting. Whats worse? David Cameron has got this respect and stereotypes thing all wrong hasn't he?

[Hadrian]

Cameroon, Blair, Campbell, with millions of other Scots politicians, estate agents, and second hand car salesmen flood down the road south in order to gain preferment. All would claim to dislike or hate the English but all want their money and power.
The Greet Broon gives the slippery spiel about being British when anyone knows he is rabid Scots and prior to the past two years would happily ram that fact down your throat. The oily Cameroon now sneaks over the northern border to simper on about the ignorant anti Scots English knowing that he and the political class have semi disenfranchised the English people.
All are dishonest carpet baggers and snake oil salesmen, with little interest other than milking their expenses and voting themselves higher pensions. The problem is , who is left that we English conservatives can vote for without choking. Frankly the time has come to vote BNP or possibly, "none of the above". The BNP will not yet be able to afford representatives everywhere, so in the meantime vote "None of the above".

[Wallenstein]

Reading "Lord Haw Haw"s asinine comments above, I am driven to wonder what sort of person would choose the name of a vile anti-British traitor.

Another vile anti-British traitor, I suppose.

[Denis Cooper]

Hadrian, you do realise that the BNP is the "BRITISH National Party"?

[malcolm]

I agree with most of what Doulouz is saying.Many of the commentators should be embarrased at the comments they have left on this thread,perhaps the half-witted Hadrian most of all.
I'm glad that Cameron spoke so well on behalf of Unionism.It's clear that the Unionist cause must be sold in England as well as Scotland.What is also clear is that the West Lothian question must also be solved because as you can see Doulouz there is a huge amount of anger building in England with the unfairness of the current situation.
I doubt that anything short of English votes for English laws will suffice.

[Denis Cooper]

"Cameroon, Blair, Campbell, with millions of other Scots politicians, estate agents, and second hand car salesmen flood down the road south in order to gain preferment. All would claim to dislike or hate the English but all want their money and power."

Actually there was quite a lot of this after 1603 when James VI of Scotland came down and also became James I of England. Not specifically about estate agents and car salesmen, of course. See eg:

http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/culloden/union.htm

"They stated that his subjects who had followed him south were 'northern adjectives' and 'Caledonian bores'. One Englishman is quoted as saying: 'They beg our lands, our goods, our lives'. 'They switch our nobles, and lye with their wives.' said another."

Most of us have got over that during the intervening four hundred years.

It's been an unhappy sequence of events, that Heath (and before him Macmillan) decided that European Union was more important than the British Union, then Thatcher ground Labour down so much in England while further antagonising the Scots (and Welsh) and left Scotland (and Wales) as almost the final Labour strongholds, so Labour politicians in Scotland (but not so much Wales) got a disproportionate degree of control of the Labour Party, and so since 1997 they've had a disproportionate degree of control of the UK government.

But that anomaly will work its way through the system, especially if the Tories start to make some headway in those parts of the country.

[Yet Another Anon]

Fewer Scottish and Welsh constituencies might actually make it more difficult for the Conservatives to make any recovery in Scotland or Wales, Ulster as I understand it also has more constituencies per head of population than the UK, the larger the constituencies at the moment in Scotland and Wales the more likely they are to be Labour or Liberal Democrat - so probably the Conservatives would lose the 4 MP's that they have in Scotland & Wales increasing the impression of the Conservatives as a mainly English Party, equalising numbers of voters per seat right across the UK including between urban and rural constituencies including inside England is logical though.

Yet Scots often have to endure the indignity of having their money examined by suspicious staff south of the border as if it’s come straight out of a Monopoly box.
Short of making Scottish and Ulster notes legal tender (currently they are not legal tender but a small number of Banks are allowed to issue their own notes by permission of the Bank of England) or somehow incorporating a seperate set of Scottish, Welsh and Ulster designs into the official notes then I don't see what difference central government policy can make to this. Given that the Bank of England is Central Bank of the UK and has been for hundreds of years it is rather absurd though that it isn't simply called the United Kingdom Central Bank - whether the UK is to have a Federal Structure or whether English Law, Scottish Law and Ulster Law were merged into a single British Law and the Union replaced by a new country of either the United Kingdom or Britain then it's still going to be the bank of all the UK while the UK remains together.

[Yet Another Anon]

Just creating an English Parliament and phasing out the Barnet Formula won't create a balanced Federal Parliament - no doubt the people in the area of the GLA will attempt to keep that body when an English Parliament was introduced, in addition Wales is still under English Law, English Law would thus need to be split into English Law and Welsh Law and there would have to be greater devolution of powers to a County Level, indeed there is no reason why Yorkshire, Lancashire, Cornwall, Cheshire, the GLA shouldn't all be full Parliaments in their own right only making decisions jointly on a limited range of things as English Law.

[voreas06]

I really don't think having a go at the English about Russ Abbott and dodgy Scottish Fivers as a tactic to get votes in Scotland is particularily wise. All it implies is that the Scottish hate the English so much that the only way the Scottish Tories can get votes is by being anti-English. If that is the case then frankly the union has had it anyway. I don't really have a problem with the Scots but I do have a problem with the current unbalanced devolution settlement, and the fact that I have to have Brown, Reid, Alexander, Darling, Des Browne etc etc making a vast amount of policy affecting England with no accountability.

[Denis Cooper]

It's difficult to keep equal numbers of electors in all constituencies when there's a constant drift of population towards south east England, plus a much larger influx from abroad - of course the eastern Europeans should not be allowed to vote here at all, but they're told to register because they can vote in local and European Parliament elections. The age distributions of the populations in Scotland and England are probably not the same, either, so there isn't necessarily the same proportion eligible to vote.

However using the 2003 estimated populations, Scotland and Northern Ireland are now about right while Wales should lose about a fifth of its seats:

Scotland: 9.1% of seats for 8.5% of population
Wales: 6.2% of seats for 4.9% of population
Northern Ireland: 2.8% of seats for 2.9% of population
England: 82% of seats for 84% of population.

[tapestry]

The Camerons Are Comin Hurrah Hurrah. (makes a change from The Campbells).

Anyone nostalgic for a bit of Scottish culture should head for The Royal Hotel in Oban on a Sunday evening. I was brought up on Scottish dance and music with a mother obsessed with the bloody stuff. I'll never get it out of my bones, and need a fix every so often. It's bloody moving stuff. I'd challenge the hardest-nosed Sassenach to not feel a twinge in an evening of it.

[Len Welsh]

You can all write what you like, pro or con, but from where I sit Cameron was up in Scotland brown - nosing the Scots just as G Brown did, both will get their come -uppance when the time comes and it will be given by those who have been campaigning for an English Parliament, and possibly by Scots under Alex Salmond.

[Denis Cooper]

You mean those campaigning for the break-up of the United Kingdom.

[Scottish Conservative]

The English nationalist case being made by some posters is utter nonsense.

EVfEL -

1. Throughout our period in government English MP's voted on legislation which applied solely in Scotland. It is striking the number of English bigots on here who omit this facts when ranting about the Jocks.

So for those of you bemoaning Scottish MP's voting on English laws answer this - was it right or wrong for English MP's to vote on Scottish-only legislation?

2. The fact that England has the overwhelming majority of MP's also means that they were able to determine the outcome in a vote affecting only Scotland, even where Scottish MP's were overwhelmingly of the opposite view.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN VOTES WHICH ONLY AFFECT ENGLAND.

Scottish MP's can only swing an English-only vote where English MP's are divided since Scots MP's are a small minority in the Commons. Thus not only is the 'unfairness' on England not unique it is considerably less 'unfair' than that inflicted upon Scotland by England.

The number of votes solely affecting Scotland which have been swung by English MP's massively exceeds the number of votes applying only to England which have been swung by English votes. Why is this fact (and it is a FACT) ignored by all the English nationalists/bigots posting here?

3. The EVfEL argument seems only to apply when it benefits the English. English MP's still have the right - which they exercise -to vote on issues solely affecting Northern Ireland. Where is the concern for "fairness" there? It seems English nationalists are happy to inflict upon others that which they are horrified to have inflicted on themsleves - albeit in a far milder form.

4. Do the English nationalists on here seriously believe Scotland has had a greater impact on the governance of England than England has had on Scotland. That over hundreds of years the tail has really wagged the dog? come on now.

As for Della Petch and the problem of Scottish terrorism, i mean really.

[Edward Longshanks]

Nice one Donald Cameron!

If we were in any doubt about your true allegiance to Scotland first and foremost, we aint now!

Absolutely brilliant of you to go after the lion's share of the 3.9 million Scottish voters.

We English nationalists will continue to concentrate on the 38 million voters in England.

Perhaps you could step up your work rate, and make more anti-English speeches! After all, isn't that what Scots do best?

[Cardinal Pirelli]

Have to say that I'm a little disappointed with this speech. There are clear problems regarding the West Lothian Question and the way that devolution has created an absolute mess of the union. Until these are addressed and equity is restored then there is little prospect of being taken seriously.

[Edward Longshanks]

Just a couple of points for Scottie Conservative:

(1) Who was Colonial Secretary when the Eden Conservative Government arbitrarily gave the right to ALL Commonwealth citizens in 1956 to have a British passport? Was it Duncan Sandys or Iain McLeod?

(2) Who was Foreign Secretary in the Heath Government which arbitrarily took us into the EEC in 1973 without a referendum? Was it Sir Alec Douglas-Home?

Yeah, you're so right. Scots have never had much to do with affairs affecting England.

I mean, the Earl of Aberdeen, Lord Rosebery, Sir Henry Campbell Bannerman, Arthur Balfour, Andrew Bonar Law, James Ramsay MacDonald, Harold Macmillan, Sir Alec Douglas-Home were never Scottish prime ministers who affected England were they?

Oh, I forgot, you're still back at Culloden aren't you?

[Voreas06]

@Scottish Conservative, First of all I assume you are probably a labour troll trying to cause trouble but nevertheless I shall reply to your points. Your argument seems to be that before devolution the English outnumbered the Scots in Westminster and if they wished could vote on bills only affecting Scotland, and because that was the case for nearly 300 years it is now only fair that the 50 odd scottish MPs have every right to vote on english only bills. In other words the Scots deserve the right to vote on English only Bills as they had to put up with the English voting on Scottish only bills for so long.

There is just one problem, English MPs no longer have a right to vote on most legislation affecting Scotland, however Scottish MPs can change the course of English only legislation (I Believe this in fact happened with a couple of Bills this year where English Labour MPs rebelled and the Bills were only passed due to Scottish Labour MPs). Does this not strike you as just a little, and can you not see why it grates a little with an awful lot of the English.

[Denis Cooper]

When somebody posts under a foolish pseudonym like "Edward Longshanks" it suggests to me that either they belong to a distinctly lunatic fringe, or they're an agent provocateur. Actually as a Kentishman I'd quite like to restore the ancient kingdom of Kent, but I wouldn't let that romantic notion blind me to modern day political reality - part of which is that unless we stop it happening Kent will in due course be as much attached to France as it is to England. On Friday John Reid will be off to Finland, and there's every indication that he'll be willing to surrender our veto on Justice and Home Affairs. So do these fiery English patriots care that the EU would then take control of criminal law and court procedures in England? Apparently not, bad-mouthing the Scots is far more important than defending the ancient liberties of the England that they pretend to love so passionately.

[Scottish Conservative]

I can assure you that I am not a Labour troll but even if I was I suppose I would say that neway. Indeed i find it a little striking that English patriotism is considered conservative and yet scottish patriotism inhertently anti-conservative but there you are. As for the substantive points:

Voreas06 - your point is that devolution has rendered it unfair for Scottish MP's to vote on solely English matters. I dont accept this as I consider the devolution argument to be a red herring. Either it is OK for MP's to vote on legislation solely affecting another part of the Union or it is not. If it was OK for English Tory MP's to vote through Scottish-only legislation in the 80's I fail to see how it is suddenly unfair for Scottish Labour MP's to do the same. I can see no logical difference between the two positions.

If your argument is that the right to vote on the others affairs is no longer reciprocal between Scottish and English MP's (following devolution) then I would also disagree. Reciprocity is essentially about equality. Scotland and England are inherently unequal due to size thus English MP's voting on Scottish-only issues have a hugely greater degree of clout than would Scottish MP's voting on English-only issues.

Thus I dont think that England is treated more unfairly than Scotland. Indeed it is true that a couiple of English only votes were swung by Scottish MP's. But due to the power disparity referred to above the number of times English MP's have outvoted Scottish MP's is far larger. Indeed there was hardly a single Scottish eduacation or law bill during our time in government that wasnt passed using English Tory MP's to vote down the opposition of Scottish MP's.

[Ian Lambton]

Dennis Cooper: I don't understand your reference to Europe but you don't need to explain it.

[Scottish Conservative]

with regard to edward longshanks.

your list of Scots who affected England is rather silly. The whole argument is about MP's from Scottish seats who vote on English issues, not MP's who are Scottish ie Liam Fox who represent English seats. If that is your gripe well then it is one you have with your fellow Englishmen and women who elect these people.

This is a constituional rather than a racial/ethnic issue after all.

On this basis your list is flawed - Arthur Balfor sat for Hertford, Iain MacLeod for West Enfield, and the Eton and Oxford pairing of Sandys and MacMillan also both for English seats - Lambeth and Stockton respectively. This expansive definition opf Scottish to include the likes of McMillan (born in Brixton) and even the likes of David Cameron is just a sign of paranoia.

Your list still leaves a number of names of Scots who have quite certainly had influential positions which have affected thwe whole of the UK including England. But your list is irrelevant and misses the point. My point is not that no Scots have ever had any power in the uk - that would be preposterous and is clearly not the case. My point is that under the Union (which i continue to support) the English have had more influence over public life and governance in Scotland, than have the Scots in England. That doesnt especially grate with me, but I think the idea that Westminster from walpole to Diraeli, Gladstone, Lloyd George, Churchill, Heath and Thatcher has been a means by which Scotland dominates England is just silly.

[voreas06]

@Scottish Conservative: There is nothing we can do about the fact that more people are resident in England than Scotland. That is just the way it is but for arguments sake if you image that the scots had an equal number of seats to the English would you still see the current devolution settlement as fair?

@Dennis If Reid does throw away the veto he would be extremely foolish and that would be the end of his credibility in the Home office. To be honest I don't fully understand the implications of it.

[Opinicus]

@Scottish Conservative
What exactly permits you to couple English Nationalist and bigot in your post above. Bigotry consts in loudly maintaining a view despite any new contrary evidence that might emerge. More a description of your position than mine I would have thought.

EVfEL is a response by Englishmen to Labour's devolution settlement. As former Unionists, the Commons was the UK parliament. Any vote there was decided by a consensus of the whole nation. Whether it was Scottish Labour or English Tory MPs in the ascendency was immaterial. It was one UK party against another UK party and everyone accepted the result.

After devolution the situation is wholly different. You and doulouz (I was mortified not to be on his list too) seem the only people on this thread who cannot grasp that. On health, education, environmental, farming policy etc a Scotsman can vote for an MSP who will decide the policy with not influence from Englishmen or Welshmen. On English policies, a Scotsman can be a Minister deciding the policy and there is no possibility for any Englishman to elect or to sack him and he can call on his Scottish colleagues to push the policy through (as you have admitted has happened several times) over the opposition of English MPs even from his own Party. This didn't matter before devolution but it matters now. It is fundamentally unfair. It is slowly cooking the political pressure in England

And now Cameron has declared himself part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Opinicus]

@Denis
I just have to accept I cannot convince you that English nationalism is not a distraction from our problems with the EU but a mechanism for ending them.

That said perhaps you could email me with your carefully worked out alternative programme as to how you propose to bring about EU withdrawal?

[Edward Longshanks]

Scottie Tory you really should concentrate upon the arguments instead of pompously presuming to label contributors as a substitute.

You wrote: "Do the English nationalists on here seriously believe Scotland has had a greater impact on the governance of England than England has had on Scotland. That over hundreds of years the tail has really wagged the dog? come on now." You asserted this without tendering any substantiation.

I merely pointed out how Scots from various backgrounds had had an 'impact' on England. In your arrogant, uncomprehending way, you then proceeded to instruct me that my list was silly (what would I have done without that gem), and what was the 'whole argument'. Now you must try to keep up.

A number of your unsubstantiated assertions are quite bizarre. Here's one: "Reciprocity is essentially about equality. Scotland and England are inherently unequal due to size thus English MP's voting on Scottish-only issues have a hugely greater degree of clout than would Scottish MP's voting on English-only issues." Would you kindly explain how one kind of majority can have a "hugely greater degree of clout than" another majority? Surely it is the nature of the issue which determines the impact of a decision?

You speak of 'English votes' and 'Scottish votes' without any attempt to define them, and without any acknowledgement of the fact the more than thirty Scots sit in Constituencies in England, whilst no English sit in any Parliamentary Constituency in Scotland. (How unwise of me to betray my paranoia to a caledonian bigot!)

You may wish to confine the issue to being solely constitutional, but the fact is that Scots are hugely over represented in many positions of power and influence in England. At one time, that might have been acceptable. However, Scots in power have proven beyond doubt that they are less than even handed - not only to England and the English - but also (albeit to a lesser extent) to Wales and the Welsh! Why the Scots-dominated Government in Westminster would not even permit the English to record their origins as English in the 2001 Census, but I'm just being paranoid!

In a free society, a community is at liberty to chose who will represent them in their legislature and if, on the basis of experience, the English decide to dispense with the services of Scots who, but Scots, can blame them? After all, this is what Scots have quietly been doing for years. Of course we expect you to jump up and down, and to condemn us, but you will have brought it upon yourselves. Scots are British when they want positions in England, and Scottish when they want to keep their own positions.

So you carry on with all your scorn and name calling of English nationalists! Tell us, as Donald Cameron has done, that we are ignorant! It is a grand job that you are doing. We want the English to become even more aware of your arrogant contempt, how you despise even our protests. We want the English to take control of the British Parliament and, in accordance with democratic principles, put the interests of the majority first and foremost, rather than those of vexatious and malign minorities. We'd like to be able to mark and to celebrate our own nationality for a change without all the petty obstacles placed in our path by officials who, all too often, turn out to be Scots or other non-English individuals occupying posts in England.

As I said above, you and Cameron can go after the lion's share of the 3.9 million Scottish voters., whilst we English nationalists will continue to concentrate on the 38 million voters in England. After all, it is difficult to deny now on the evidence that Cameron is predominantly Scottish in outlook and inclination, which means that all three main political parties are headed by Scots and very unrepresentative of the interests of England and its people.

Come on do your stuff laddie! Let's have some more Scottish insults.

[Scottish Conservative]

ill answer most of these points in the morning but a few ill deal with here first.

Firstly, my reference to English nationalism/bigotry is not a contention that the two are synonymous per se. However, I think that many of the posts on this page - esp see douoluz's v.good post - straddle the boundary between nationalism and bigotry/national stereotyping which was the reason for that part of my post.

As to whether my arguments are bigotry (per Jonathan) ill leave to others to judge :-)

Jonathan you then say "EVfEL is a response by Englishmen to Labour's devolution settlement. As former Unionists, the Commons was the UK parliament. Any vote there was decided by a consensus of the whole nation. Whether it was Scottish Labour or English Tory MPs in the ascendency was immaterial. It was one UK party against another UK party and everyone accepted the result.

After devolution the situation is wholly different. You and doulouz (I was mortified not to be on his list too) seem the only people on this thread who cannot grasp that."

You are of course correct, Jonathan, that prior to devolution there were a number of issues such as Defence, Foreign Policy, International Aid etc etc which were not specific or exclusive to a specific nation within the UK. Indeed, this remains the case for the reserved issues which continue to be dealt with at Westminster.

However, this is not the whole story. Your argument states that prior to devolution votes at Westminster were UK-wide and about consensus within the whole of the country. Thus it follows that issues relating to one nations MP's voting on issues relating solely to another area did not arise. Unfortunately, this was not so. Scotland has a separate legal and education system and many pieces of legislation were passed at Westminster prior to devolution on these matters. On many occasions during our period in government such laws were passed with the overwhelming majority of Scottish MP's having opposed the proposals and they only got through on the back of English votes. This seems to be an exact parallel to the present situation. I fail to see the logical difference - either it is OK for MP's to vote on matters solely affecting another part of the Union or it is not. The only difference is that the roles have swapped.

You then go on to say "On health, education, environmental, farming policy etc a Scotsman can vote for an MSP who will decide the policy with not influence from Englishmen or Welshmen. On English policies, a Scotsman can be a Minister deciding the policy and there is no possibility for any Englishman to elect or to sack him and he can call on his Scottish colleagues to push the policy through (as you have admitted has happened several times) over the opposition of English MPs even from his own Party. This didn't matter before devolution but it matters now. It is fundamentally unfair."

This is exactly the case for Scotland prior to devolution - their elected representatives being outvoted on matters solely affecting Scotland by English MP's. Im not talking about UK-wide issues such as Foreign Policy but the old Scottish Office responsibuilities. The present situation is therefore not new at all. Indeed, the Scottish Parliament's responsibilities are broadly similar to those held by the old Scottish Office on which English MP's voted. The roles have simply swapped.

[Scottish Conservative]

@ mr. longshanks

Edward, i shall try to answer your points if i can though i suspect not to your satisfaction.

You refer to the 30 English seats held by those of Scottish origin. Im afraid your gripe here is with the electors in Makerfield, Woodspring, Heywood and Middleton, penrith and the Border etc etc. This is not a constuitutional point though. I fail to see the difference between condemning someone for BEING Scottish and being say Pakistani. The persons origin is of no constitutional import - it is the role of MP's from Scottish seats which is the normal area for debate.

You then go on to say "In a free society, a community is at liberty to chose who will represent them in their legislature and if, on the basis of experience, the English decide to dispense with the services of Scots who, but Scots, can blame them? "

I assume this relates to defeating the 30 Scots in English seats and indeed this is true the electorate are perfectly free to defeat them on polling day. However, at the moment the good people of Woodspring, Makerfield, Penrith and the Border etc are exercising that liberty by electing Scots to represent them, so this undermines your own case.

Your point that a Scots dominated government stopped English being put in the census is the next matter. I would be quite happy for this to be a census option, but I would point out to you that whatever you may believe this is not a Scots dominated government. There are 40 Scottish Labour MP's on the government benches. There are 286 English Labour MP's on the government side. Labour may do well in Scotland but there will never ever be a governemnt in the UK the vast and overwhelming majority of whose MP's do not represent English seats.

It is worth noting that whilst Scotland returns 40 Labour MP's, Yorkshire returns 44 Labour MP's, London 44, the North West 61 and the Midlands only 1 fewer on 39.

You say the Scots are less even handed towards not only the English but the Welsh as well but offer no illustartion of how this is the case so i dont feel i can rebut this point. I would note however that following the last Scottish boundary review which introduced the English electoral quota for Scottish constituency boundaries, it is now the case that Wales enjoys the real parlaimentary overrepresentation in the Union.

You then ask "Would you kindly explain how one kind of majority can have a "hugely greater degree of clout than" another majority?"

There are currently 59 Scottish MP's and 528 MP's in England. Clearly then if English MP's are able to vote on a Sxcottish-only issue they will carry greater clout than would Scottish Mp's voting on and English-only issue.

Finally, by a rather interesting quirk of argument you manage to convince yourself that David Cameron is Scottish and therefore "very unrepresentative of the interests of England and its people." David Cameron represents Witney in Oxfordshire. He was brought up in Oxfordshire and attended both school and university in Engkand. The only basis for asserting that he is Scottish is that he has a scottish bloodline. are you seriously suggesting this makes him unsuitable to represent england?

[Scottish Conservative]

@ voreas06

Of course there is nothing we can do about the differential poulation sizes of Scotland and England and I hadnt meant for that to seemlike a pot shot at England though I can see that may have seemed the case. My point is that the differing levels of representation (see also my last post) mean that if English MP's vote on Scottish-only issues they will due to the power of numbers carry much greater clout than would Scottish MP's voting on English-only legislation. The Scots could only tip a vote if English Mp's were divided.

I still think taht there is no logical difference between our English MP's voting on the old Scottish Office issues and Scottish MP's voting on English-only legiasltion now. Therefore I would rather we didnt have EVfEL.

GHowever, Im realistic enough to realsise that will probably happen and if so i wont be overly annoyed. My concern is less at the intricacies of the issues and more at the antagonistic attitudes that may underpin this. We are all Conservatives after all!

[Della Petch]

Until one of the major parties takes the issue of an English Parliament seriously, then we are due for a hung Parliament in the next GE and much, much lower turnout of voters.
As for Gordon Brown's nationality - if he promises England equal treatment to Scotland and its own Parliament, then he will get my family's vote. His nation of birth is not the issue - his constituency most certainly is!
David Cameron has shown his true colours. He is willing to stab English voters in the back for political advancement. He wouldn't dare say these things about the Welsh or Scottish. He doesn't know yet that the worm has turned and we will no longer accept this discrimination.

[Stephen Gash]

This speech has ensured I will never vote for the Conservative Party again.

A Scots-led Government, with its majority provided by MPs in Scotland, is actively carving up England into unwanted regions.

This same Scots-led Government has discriminated against England with top-up fees, elderly people having to sell their homes in England, but not in Scotland, denial of life-saving medicines in England, but free provision of the same medicines in Scotland etc and the long list grows daily.

Labour speak of the "nations (Scotland [naturally], Wales and Northern Ireland) and regions (of a country once called England) of the "United" Kingdom.

The Scottish First Minister "supports any team, but England".

Presumably, David Cameron believes all these attacks on England are Scottish "respect" for the English?!

His comments about "drunks, beggars and the Scottish Raj" are beneath contempt. The reality is that Scots, on the one hand, brag about how they once ran the empire and how they run the "United" Kingdom now, but on the other hand whine about how they have been "oppressed" for 300 years. They have had their cake and eat it since 1707 and David Cameron obviously intends that they will continue to do so.

Anything with "united" or "union" in the title is mere shorthand for "you English, get your wallets out".

[Cllr. Gavin Ayling]

Sadly David Cameron's speech proves that he doesn't understand the problems that the Barnet Formula and Scottish and Welsh devolution (without devolution to an English Parliament) has caused to democracy in England.

Perhaps his commentators will refer to the Campaign for an English Parliament's message before making positive remarks in this respect?

Cameron talks about the Scottish Raj as if it is some concern for groups of housewives with nothing better to worry about. The Scottish Raj is not racist either -- it is an excellent way of describing those MPs who represent Scottish constituencies but have no accountability to the English that their policies solely effect (for devolved policies which is the majority).

[Scilla Cullen]

I am appalled by Mr Cameron's ignorant speech about the English. He says that the last three centuries have witnessed an erosion of Scottish identity. It is the erosion of English identity that he needs to address, to which his party contributes when it fails to acknowledge England in its separate manifestos for Scotland, Wales and the “UK” and its logos for Wales, Scotland and another place.
He says ”Sending an MSP to Holyrood to vote against tuition fees for Scotland is fine.
Sending an MP to Westminster vote for tuition fees for England is fine too”. Oh no it is not, Mr Cameron, it is discrimination against the people of England, who pay the same taxes but will be subsidising Scottish students through the Barnett formula and also having to pay their own children’s fees.
He refers to “sour Little Englanders who cry 'good riddance' when independence for Scotland is suggested” but does not mention the sour little Scotlanders who called for the break up of the Union, through devolution, in the first place and call now for moiré independence. How biased is that! No-one in England ever called for the break up of the Union before 1997 but then they realised how damaging asymmetrical devolution was to them and that they should be treated with equality. Oh no Mr Cameron it is not we that have engineered the break up of the Union but the Scots.
He claims the English people are ignorant about Scots and Scotland. Well that may be the case but the reverse is also true. An otherwise well balanced Scottish colleague informed me that that the Scots hate the English because of what we did to them. Without a long dissertation on our histories let it be said that Scotland has invaded England more often than the reverse, Edouard I was hardly English and the Act of Union benefited them more than it did us. Citing the poll tax is disingenuous as Cameron well knows.
He says "Why is it that Scottish sportsmen and women who win are habitually claimed by English media commentators as ‘British’ only to be promptly redesignated as ‘Scottish’ the moment they lose?" That is quite the opposite to the case. It is always the Welsh and Scots who are given the courtesy of their nationality by the BRITISH media and the English who are always called British. An example of this different treatment is the way David Coulthard is always called Scottish and Jenson Button always British. English history is continually called British history and a recent example is the faux pas made by Gordon Brown in his speech referring to the 1689 Bill of Rights and Magna Carta. Another example is the B(BRITISH)BC’s series on David Starkey’s book on the English monarchy, which the BBC insisted on calling the British monarchy.
As for his inaccuracy, the only other area subsidised more heavily than Scotland is the north east of England. How dare he say "Instead of deriding Scots as chippy or difficult, isn’t it time that English people of good will educated themselves? " after an English child and disabled person have been attacked in Scotland for wearing the wrong sort of slogan I find this most insulting. However, clearly Cameron finds this and the "Anyone but England" slogans acceptable. If that was not some kind of anglophobic chippiness and from those in the public eye I don't know what would be. Clearly Cameron, with, as we understand, plenty of Scottish blood in his veins, needs to educate himself about the long-suffering English.
He says “ they do expect their distinct Scottishness to be both recognised and respected”. Well I expect my distinct Englishness to be both recognised and respected. It is not, not by recognition of my nation with a national Parliament, not by the ethnic identity questionnaire, not by the BBC, not by the British media, (which Cameron clearly believes is English, which it is not) not by the British Political Parties.
We in England look forward to the full and equal respect he promises every part of Britain. That must start with our own national assembly with powers equal to those of Scotland and a review of the Barnett formula. Unfortunately, he promises the people of England no such respect.
Scilla Cullen
Secretary to the Campaign for an English Parliament

[Helen proud to be English]

If the Conservatives are so proud of this anit-English rhetoric from their great leader, why don't they take out a full page ad in one of the British papers that sell in England, jsut to make sure the rest of the English can read it?
Do they really expect us to pat them on the back?
The Scots have their own Parliament, favourable funding and can impose discriminatory policies onto only the English. What more does Cameron suggest we do to "show respect?" Doff our caps, pay more taxes? Just remembered, he's already said the English should 3% MORE than the Scots, hasn't he?
Does he really believe the Scottish are stupid enough to choose a party that can be so two faced? Obviously, Cameron hasn't shown enough respect for Scots, if he believes that. Even the most ardent Scottish nationlist will be puking at that speech.

[Denis Cooper]

Della, the worm has indeed turned, and a good thing too. But just because the English will not longer remain silent when they're insulted that doesn't mean that they should embark on a deliberate, systematic campaign of insulting the Scots as evidenced by some of the postings here. I've just re-read Cameron's speech:

http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=news.story.page&obj_id=132019&speeches=1

and as an English nationalist it seems pretty balanced to me. But then unlike you I'm not driven by an irrational hatred and contempt for the Scots.

[tapestry]

Denis, can you imagine how well the Sunday papers would sell with headline - 'Cameron Makes Another Well Balanced Speech'? The ties between England and Scotland run deep. A few noisy and noisome politicians are trying to wreck the bond. Cameron's having none of it. So they attack him. Of course they'd be out of a job.

[Denis Cooper]

Stephen Gash @ 09.08 -

"A Scots-led Government, with its majority provided by MPs in Scotland, is actively carving up England into unwanted regions."

You seem to conveniently forget that the minister who spent eight years pushing this agenda, John Prescott, is not a Scot, he's as English as any of us, and he has been elected and repeatedly re-elected by his English constituents in Hull.

Nor is true that the government's majority has been provided by MPs elected in Scotland, except I think on two occasions - and even then the overwhelming majority of the Labour MPs who voted for the government's proposals were English and/or elected in England.

[Della Petch]

Denis, I'm flattered you feel the need to keep inventing reasons to speak directly to me, but stalking is not a pleasant characteristic. On the internet, its called trolling. You're on your own, Denis. I don't feed Trolls.

[Courtney Williams]

I have no problem with David Cameron addressing issues which cause resentment in Scotland. Resentment and bitterness are the result of unfair treatment and discrimination. Now perhaps Mr Cameron could deal with the issues that are causing the English to feel bitter and resentful. He could start with promising to end creeping regionalisation and follow it with the introduction of an English Parliament. Then we would no longer be the only country in the UK and the EU not to have control over our own destiny.

[Edward Longshanks]

We're all going to trust the 'balanced' judgement of someone with the pseudonym Denis Cooper who posts the following drivel:

"When somebody posts under a foolish pseudonym like "Edward Longshanks" it suggests to me that either they belong to a distinctly lunatic fringe, or they're an agent provocateur."

aren't we? Are we?

[tapestry]

I thought Cameron favoured an English Parliament. Poor old Denis, getting a bit of flack this morning from the weekenders!

[Terry]

Denis, John Prescott is WELSH. He is on record as saying he is a red blooded welshman.
In 2001, he issued a statement that there is no such nationality as English, in response to queries as to why you could tick most nationalities (including scottish), but there was no choice for English. Denis, it is correct to say that you are uninformed and argumentative for the sake of it. You must be very popular.

[Courtney Williams]

Dennis, John Prescott was born in Prestatyn North Wales!! He's the one who wants to divide England up into regions even though the people of the North East rejected the idea.

[Christopher Reeves]

Who the hell does David Cameron think he is, English dis-respectful to the Scottish? He may regret saying that in years to come.

After all it is the English, that give massive subsidies to the Scottish Government and it is the English who have to put up with the day-in-day-out mafic in Westminster, making laws for England that have nothing to do with Scotland what so ever.

Is it not Scottish fans that support the opposing country whenever England plays in the World Cup? I think so!

An English Parliament would solve all this rubbish the English have to put up with from the Scottish.

[Christopher Reeves]

Denis, John Prescott may be elected again and again by his constituents in Hull, but is that what the majority of the English people? I think not!

Don't be so narrow minded, everyone knows about the Scottish majority in Parliament and the denial of any English representation.

England IS being regionalised, still, despite the "north east" assembly being rejected, but still it continues without the consent of the people of England.

Open your eyes.

[Denis Cooper]

Ian Lambton @ 23:17 - the reference to the EU should not need any explanation.

You could no more achieve an "independent" England within the EU than the SNP could achieve an "independent" Scotland within the EU. 80% of our laws come from the EU, and most are now decided by qualified majority voting without any member state being able to exercise a veto. The UK presently has 9% of the votes, an "independent" Scotland would have about 2%, and an "independent" England would have about slightly fewer than the UK.

Many of the matters dealt with by the Scottish Executive are already under EU control - eg farming policy in Scotland is set by the EU, and the Executive and Parliament only have a marginal degree of control over implementation.

voreas06 @ 23:45 - if it is agreed to abolish the veto on Justice and Home Affairs then we would have agreed that in the future our Parliament (be that the British Parliament, or separate sovereign Scottish and English Parliaments) will accept whatever decisions may be reached by qualified majority voting within the EU on such matters as:

Criminal law
Operation of the police
Court procedures
Border controls
ID cards