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Martin Bristow: What Cameron is saying is we will get growth and distribute that growth as an when.My questiion to him is how is he going to produce sustainable growth moving forward without the incentive that a low tax economy provides?

Fair question or not?

A very fair question. There is likely to be some growth from the private sector/city as enterprise is not yet totally squashed in this country. As I said earlier in the thread if you can prove to the public that tax revenues rise when taxes are cut and be honest with them when this is likely to be the case then I think this is a sensible argument for cutting taxes. This would have to be a robustly presented argument that would stand criticism from economists and be able to get beyond the normal Labour how many schools is that going to cost. I think it would be difficult to logically say no to this argument. If it is doubtful that revenues will be increased then tax cuts should not happen.

thanks malcolm, i love you.

"Don't remember you ever saying that you thought Cameron would be PM John. I can only remember relentlessly negative comments about him from you although you did stop posting for a while.Couldn't you bear it?"

I don't know if I've said it on here or not, Malcolm, but I think I've said so in conversation with people. The fact that the poll ratings looked positive enough to suggest that a general election victory was probable doesn't mean I was happy with his general direction. I continue to be unhappy at his lack of courage and principle, but I *want* him to change for the better. And I feel that if he *did* offer some courage and principle, his chances of electoral success would increase. I happen to believe that my views and electoral success go hand in hand.

As for not being able to "bear" it, you're wrong if you assume that I'm wishing on defeat for the Tories. I just want to see them advocating an agenda that I can feel I can support. Right now, I don't see Cameron saying much of anything that makes me feel enthusiastic about party politics. So if I've become detached and posted less, that's probably the reason. I'm probably not alone.

Tom Tom is correct. We have "growth" now because of Gordon Brown's spending binge.This has been facillitated by anunprecedented tax take and an ever increasing state bureaucracy.Is DC going to continue this approach?

I am interested in breaking out of this suffocating state mentality.Encouraging enterprise and initative letting the private sector flourish and innovate.It really is simple : for me individuals free from control spend their resources more wisely than does the state.

This approach is also the only one I see as consistent with liberty and personal responsibilty.Admitedly these are old fashioned notions but I hold them dear.I don't want the state taking an ever increasing share of the national wealth and distributing it as it sees fit.That way lies dependency culture ans serfdom.

Goldie said - "Cameron and his sidekick Osborne have decided not to cut taxes AT ALL. This after 9 years of Gordon Brown!!!"

Thats just not true. I wish you would actually listen to what Cam The Man says, you obviously never hear or see a full speech from Dave.

David @19:30

Please give a link where your other comments may be found.

Included in your earlier list was the following:

"He could state unequivocally what the tories intend to do about curbing the powers of Brussels"

This implied an ignorance of the realities.

There is of course nothing Vapid can do or state that would make a ha'p'orth of difference other than, like yourself, ascribing to BOO.

Mark Bristow @ 1913 puts the tax/growth problem in a nutshell. If only Osborne or Cameron could demonstrate such a clear grasp of the underlying problems.

How are things in CCHQ voreas06 and G-Matt Wild .Do you ever get out of there to get on the streets and talk to real people? I may be speaking out of turn but if you are not in CCHQ then it would be helpful if you can at least assist us all into taking on board your arguments if you could give us all an inkling of your experience since leaving Uni and the sort of level of employment and say life experience you have had?It would maybe make me think that my assessment is wrong.In that case,I will hang up my gloves.

How are things in CCHQ voreas06 and G-Matt Wild .Do you ever get out of there to get on the streets and talk to real people? I may be speaking out of turn but if you are not in CCHQ then it would be helpful if you can at least assist us all into taking on board your arguments if you could give us all an inkling of your experience since leaving Uni and the sort of level of employment and say life experience you have had?It would maybe make me think that my assessment is wrong.In that case,I will hang up my gloves.

Martin, Whilst I philosophically agree that individuals spend their money more wisely than the state, I also believe that private enterprise will always go for the most profit. To me in a sector like health where competition is unlikey you are neither likely to get a good deal from the private sector(PFI) or get necessarily get the services that you need. Now of course there is waste in the public sector. In my opinion the answer to that is to delayer management and introduce performance related pay based on customer service, management appraisal, and well thought through targets, with non customer facing departments paid on either targets or whether their customer service facing colleagues are getting good customer service feedback.
As well as health there are areas such as climate change that require state intervention either through incentives or taxes.
Having said all that, the best deal should always be got for the tax payer and that obviously includes tax cutting where possible.

Sanbagger: it would be helpful if you can at least assist us all into taking on board your arguments if you could give us all an inkling of your experience since leaving Uni and the sort of level of employment and say life experience you have had?
I left university 11 years ago and have had jobs in several private sector companies and also in the public sector. Just to ask did you ever get your gloves out? the only thing I think I have heard in terms of discussion of policy from you is that a conservative has to be a thatcherite, which is of course not true, but if you do not want to elaborate further then as I say you were never really in the ring.

For many years I have listened to and read articles and speeches by otherwise seemingly intelligent people discussing changing the EU from within - since Heath LIED to the British peoples, Parliament and the Monarch, which he openly admittede to having done No British Government has made a single solitary consequential alteration of so much as a substantive phrase of EU diktat that has undemocratically been imposed upon our Country and our peoples.
To date I have NEVER seen a single solitary proven statement of a single solitary benefit of our vassal status in this Evil Union that justifies the monetary OR the political OR the commercial costs and down side risks.
Now here on the Conservative Home I endlessly read of some Vapid little squirt with not one ounce of leadership ability being handled like a puppet in denial of ALL Conservative principles by those who I can only assume betray our Country, our Justice our democracy and values and our future for personal gain.
Clearly the Conservatives will not win the next election though Labour may lose to the new light red Tories. Are all Conservative values to be made whores of for election under a little man who had to lie about the EU to get elected?
They say Power corrupts and we need only look at tiny Blur, the Brown smudge, man of Straq and PressClod to realise that but it is sad to see the very chance of power so easily corrupt Conservatives that they will follow a liar to nemesis!
Address the issues with truth and integrity or stand aside for a leader who will - Westminster is an irrelevance whilst we remain a vassal of the EU - I do wish some people of integrity would actually bother reading the corrupt documents of the EU and the unlawful and corrupt manner in which we have been duped by crooks in our own parliament to so called ratify the sequence of illegal and unlawful EU documents which are totally counter British Justice and unlawfull under the British Constitution - just howmany more years of liars, cheats, crooks and self seeking self important halfwits must we have in parliament?
They should all have an 80% pay cut to reflect how little say they now have, now that we are directly and undemocratically controlled by the centralised and undeniably corrupt EUropean soviet.
Find a leader - fire Vapid Cameron and his parasites and sychophants and more importantly the corrupt puppet masters. Sadly if you fail to do this soon you WILL face open war and starvation as the EU follows every false soviet in history into bloody collapse.

"Wonder what he would make of Jacks?! Anyone who can spell 'subterranean' can spell well in my opinion!"

He's probably using spellcheck now. Seven glaring spelling, punctuation and syntax errors in one of his typical two-liners make it pretty spectacular by any standards.

Sorry, but spelling "Nazi's" costermonger-style (as in "banana's") just has to be the sin against the Holy Ghost.

Hear hear Voreas06.

And SandFlogger, your entirely patronising presumptuous post doesnt deserve a dignified reply.

This is a crazy idea, but I wonder if some of Labour's improved poll ratings has something to do with the recent fall in the price of petrol?

Of all the things we buy, petrol is the one where the price is up there and in your face every where you go.

I'm not saying it accounts for the whole bounce, but it may account for say a quarter of it.

It's all part of the feelgood factor, or at any rate the feelnormal factor.

As I see it, personal finances are going to have to get a whole lot worse before people seriously - I mean seriously - think about kicking this lot out.

Personally, putting the vexed issue of tax on one side, I'm doing rather well at present.

A Conservative need not be a Thatcherite in the sense of agreeing with everything Margaret Thatcher ever said or did.We all know the world moves on and challenges change.But the great Lady certainly had vision and she certainly changed things for the better.

As Conservatives we should however have a filter on the world driven by principles.The kind of society we want to create should be informed by ideas hardwired into the psyche of all Conservatives.

The role and Limit of the state in the life of individuals is key.At every turn we should seek to increase the forces of personal responsibilty.Individuals need to see that actions have consequences and that the state will not bail them out or tolerate free loading.

What we have now is just the opposite. Britain has a strong welfare and dependency culture fed and nourished by the last 10 years.It is the Conservative Party task to stand against this for a coherent and visionary change of direction.

My problem is that we are simply not doing this. There is absolutely nothing for the electorate to be excited about in Cameron's approach. No committment to reduce Tax despite the apparent view of Michael Forsyth's policy review.No demonstration of the return of power from Brussels (Tory MEP's still sit with the Federalist EPP)

I know the familair retort that the Election is years away will be trotted out, but why should I or anybody assume that this fact makes any difference at all.

What I actually want to see from David Cameron (hopefully in one of his speeches) is real passion and anger about the long term damage Labour has done to this country under Blair & Brown. Be it Pensions, PFI, rising Tax levels, Britain's international Status, Crime, Civil Liberties, Debt levels, Democracy, the environment, housing, transport, you name it, beyond all New Labour's spin these all are serious long term issues that they have either created, made worse or done nothing about.

I would then like to hear his vision, some parts we already know, localism, Work-life balance, tackling the causes of crime, Less slavish foreign policy stance, Less authoritarian government style, obviously there are huge gaps. and I would like to see him fill them.

Thanks for the response which does not really tell me a lot.You do not say whether or not you work in CCHQ. I do not have much more to say on this subject other than that I did not have the priveledge of going to Uni due to the fact that my Mother was a widow and I had to work.I am a working class Tory who has served his Party and his City for over 40+ years. However,I made sure that my sons have all benifited from having been at Uni and all are real Tories. It is in the blood! I am quite used to roughing it in political battlefields but cannot seem to take on board this denial of our Party's past. I can say for sure that Margaret Thatcher will at least go down in history as one of the greatest Prime Ministers this Country has ever had. I wonder if the same will apply to the current breed. How many elections have you worked and fought voreas?? It would give me a better idea if you know what you are talking about. By the way,are you still working in the private sector??

It is the vision part that looks limited to me ,Voreas06.I have the impression that we are accepting too much of the Guardian reader consensus.It gives the impression that the leadership is engaging in some great dinner table debate internally.They then ring their hands in disgust at positions the Conservative has held for Generations.

This approach has seen us avoid talking about the issues raised by: Multicularism,The share of the state of National wealth (Tax and Spending),Support for the traditional Family,The paucity of political Correctness and Violent Crime.

This has been replaced by a leadership talking generally about climate change and making absolutely absurd interventions anout Hoodies.

What about the world people see outside their own windows in the Big cities of the Midlands and the North.How is all this playing with the overtaxed ,hard working majority of our citizens.

Some clue is given by the polls surely.In a year of unprecedented Labour meltdown the best we can do is pull marginally ahead.People complain that we don't speak to them.We are paralysed by the fear that if we say what we think eitherthe BBC or a Guardian commentator will critiscise us. We will no doubt hear such nonsesnse from the likes of Polly Toynbee but their arguements have never appeared frightening to me.

Let us get up of our needs stop apologising and think about how we engage with the mass of the electorate many of whom do not vote at all but were once Thatcher supporters.

I absolutely agree Martin. This poll was not the result of Blair’s speech because much of the respondents had cast their opinion before the conference.

Cameron has stood in front of so many open goals only to run the other way, I seriously doubt he is capable of taking us to an election victory.

At a time when we had “lifers” spending less that six years in prison, an open door immigration policy, labour infighting at the highest level, little improvement in public services despite record spending (with taxation reaching record highs, of course), Cameron decided to go to Scotland and refer to his core support base “sour little Englanders”.

I don’t know if that endeared him to Guardian readers, but it sure as hell annoyed a great number of people I know, as was reflected in these boards. It even makes me hesitate to vote for a party led by him and I'm died in the wool!

Way to go Dave!

Good morning, Martin Cole. In reply to your post of 19.54, I can't, I am afraid, give you a link, because all my previous posts have gone and I have no record. Suffice to say, I have consistently said the same thing about Europe over the past few months.
The tories have to confront the issue and they have to come up with a solution that is in the best interests of the UK.
I suggest they outline what is wrong with the EU now, say that they realise that we are a voice in the wilderness, that they realise that reforming it from within is a no-hoper and then recommend to the electorate that we withdraw and apply for membership of EFTA.
Above all, DC should promise a referendum on the matter, after all the pros and cons of membership have been set out - preferably by a totally independent commission.

If I may generalise, post WW2 history says that Labour get in on waves of enthusiasm (war over, recession over) that peters away once they've fouled up badly enough, then the Conservatives get back in to sort out the economy and so on, once economy is back on its feet, wa-hey, euphoria kicks in and Labour get back in.

This applies to most changes of government from Lab to Con and back again, except Heath losing to Wilson, Heath having fouled up right royally.

This time The Goblin King is making sure to strangle the economy ve-e-ery slowly and stealthily, leaving a bare minimum of actual growth (that is swallowed up in extra state "spending").

Whether the Conservatives win the next GE is, depressingly enough, a function of how badly house prices crash and what sort of knock on effect that has on the economy.

Well, 'Monday Clubber' , i don't know who your trolling for but you must be at somewhat of a loose end if all you have to do all day is send in snide little comments like those above.
Sad really. Still don't worry , i'm sure help is available for you. Maybe the party you belong to ( BNP?) should have a conference?

Monday Clubber
1) i do not use spellcheck
2) i do not feel any need to feel inferior to you merely because you happen to be able to be snide about other peoples English. Your merely an anonymous bully.
3) As an anonymous bully , you are doubtless a coward. I don't know who your trolling for , probably Nulab, but you must be a pretty pathetic individual if all you can do is sit around sending in snide comments.
4)You are such a pathetic little creep your posts are not worth responding to.

Actually David when I'm indoors I spend most of my time working at my PC which means that even on a Sunday I do indeed have the odd moment to post here.

Not that I have posted on this thread at all today so you seem to have got that wrong for a start

Care to tell us which of my posts suggests a BNP connection?

I've already been told I'm a UKIP Troll and a Labour Troll so I suppose it was inevitable somebody would make the hat-trick.

Returning to the subject of this thread, (before certain a troll tried to derail it)i don't think that one can read too much into these slight fluctuations of polling strength. The Lib Dems did not have such a bad conference as they may have done , and Blairs speech was certainly well received by the party faithful. Therefore it is obviously imperative that we have a good party conference. It would be good to see the party putting more flesh on the bones of the Cameron revolution and to see old themes being approached in a new spirit.

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