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BtL provides a yardstick. If Cameron proposes a policy - or indeed any of the policy committees - it can be critiqued with reference to BtL.

Does it 'encourage enterprise in all it forms'?

Does it 'give power to people and communities, and recognise the limitations of government'?

It will be waved aloft once people have read the small print. Keep it handy. Or would you prefer to follow the principles of Mao's Little Red Book?

The BtL statement of principles, aims and values is an historic moment in our Party. Shame that no one's actually read it yet.

Hoots. David Cameron is the best thing since sliced bread. I must be over 50 to be saying that I guess?

Chad. If you want me to insult your website I'll have to look at it first.

Chad , hello

Is UKIP / Tory insult tennis still the game we're playing? Whose winning? If Daniel Vince /archer pops up it could go to a tiebreaker. He's very cute though.

I liked Built to last. Just forgot to vote

David,

Do you really, honestly, deep down, believe that high taxes create economic stability?

BtL No 5. ...ending global poverty.

Further reforming the Common Agricultural Policy, abolishing all remaining production-linked subsidies, scrapping import tarrifs and removing all export subsidies.

Cheaper food. Less worldwide poverty. British farmers free to produce what's demanded e.g. more organic food, or expand volume to compete.

Win. Win. Win.

Chad, no-one believes that. But do you believe that taxes should be cut whether or not the economy can afford it?

The Conservatives lost their entitlement to being the party trusted with the economy under Norman Lamont. We won't get it back until the electorate see that we won't risk the stability of the economy by promising tax cuts the economy can't afford. That is what is meant by 'economic stability before tax cuts'

"signs are that a growing number of Tories are realising the crass error they made in failing to elect David Davis.

The prevailing groundswell of Conservative opinion is reflected in the views increasingly expressed on this democratic forum"

Wallenstein, it is typical of the debate here that you are allowed to get away with this comment without posting any evidence whatsoever. I hardly ever come on this forum because I can't be bothered to talk to people with closed minds. So many of the regular posters on here are aggressively anti Cameron. Yet the Party voted for him, and the Party is now ahead in the polls, consistently for the first time in years. What signs are there that there are increasing numbers of Tories who think they made a mistake? Most of those who post on here who say that they want to see the end of Cameron admit voting for Davis in the first place. They never wanted Cameron, and probably yearn for a return to IDS. Well wake up and smell the roses. We are going to win a General Election before long, and there will be a Conservative government. I'd rather have an IDS led Government than Blair or Brown, but I happen to think that Cameron will do a better job than the lot of them.

Does that make me a CCHQ apparatchik or a headbanger or a 'Jeremy Cardhouse' clique?

Surely a clique isn't the majority? Since a majority voted FOR DC I don't understand you...

"Chad, no-one believes that. But do you believe that taxes should be cut whether or not the economy can afford it?"

Hi Ben,
High taxes are *not* providing stability at all, we are slipping down the international competitiveness league.

That's just a Labour myth that Cameron has bought into.

I would say that if we have any serious long-term stability plans, then reduced taxation and increased efficiency are not a choice but a necessity.

Did you read John Redwood's interim report? It's growth, ie encouraging new investment, not adding ever increasing taxes on a dwindling local tax base that offers long-term stability.

Yes Chad, but time and again I have challenged people on this blog to explain how we are going to fund tax cuts. I don't think that anybody has ever put forward a solution apart from that old chestnut "efficiency savings".

If efficiency savings truly are possible, let's deliver the savings before spending the money.

Mark it really is quite simple - lower taxes encourage economic growth and hence higher tax takes. However it only works when stimulating an economy into boom. The economic cycle then means that we will eventually bubble and bust. Hence Brown's obsession with accusing us of boom and bust economics.

I actually believe that taxes can be lowered, and certainly simplified. But I don't believe that this should be at the expense of public services or any perception that we are economically deficient.

I also note that demographics are storing us up some real problems in relation to taxation - like how to pay for Social Services care when the elderly population is growing, ditto the NHS, and let's not forget pensions.

We have a lot to fix in Brown's headline chasing economy, and we won't be able to do it from opposition. If we go into an election on the back of four years of Brown accusing us of tax cuts=spending cuts then we will lose, and we'll have another 4-5 years of Brown's tax hikes.

So, because I believe that Cameron is a Conservative, and that I believe Conservatives wish lower taxes where affordable, I vote Conservative to get lower taxes.

Wallenstein wrote at 22.00 "Too true Ben, but we all make mistakes and the signs are that a growing number of Tories are realising the crass error they made in failing to elect David Davis. The prevailing groundswell of Conservative opinion is reflected in the views increasingly expressed on this democratic forum." Ben Redsell then wrote at 22.47, "Wallenstein, it is typical of the debate here that you are allowed to get away with this comment without posting any evidence whatsoever."

Well Ben, when I made some recent criticism of DC's approach I was told, "Listen to what David Cameron is saying, listen to what he is talking about, give his policy reviews time to come back." I did listen, I did wait before criticising him. But then came the ratting on his EPP promise, followed by all the attacks on Margaret Thatcher and, frankly, almost everything I as a free-market, libertarian Conservative believe. That's why I've become convinced that Cameron is leading the Conservative Party to disaster. If I believe that, as I do, there's nothing loyal or "headbanging" about keeping quiet as he leads the ship on to the rocks.

Cllr Standring, I note you are a Conservative member on Rother District Council. I am a Conservative member of Suffolk County Council. I see the way we are stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of our financing. Then I look to the Treasury of Gordon Brown and I realise it is a deliberate tactic of the Government to underfund some councils to benefit their own councils. Something I'm sure you recognise.

I mention this because it is one of the reasons I want to see the back of this Government. I want them eradicated.

You have become convinced that the Leader of the Party is leading that party to disaster. Yet I am convinced he is leading us back into Government, to the benefit of all.

I suggest you follow the advice you started following, and listen when the policy reviews report.

I happen to believe that he was naive to make the EPP pledge, but that eventually he will be able to fulfil it. But since Europe is NOT even in the top five issues raised by voters I'm not too concerned at the moment.

John O - "Those of us who actually want the party to win the next election"

Have you found a Conservative party to vote for then? Do tell us if you have please. I can only find a Liberal conservative party (small 'c' as requested by the group's leader)
=-=-=-
Mark F" - the money to cut taxes ??
Well there's the £12.8bn gross to the EU (£4.3bn net) THIS year for a start. This is going to rise to £13bn NET in 2013.
There's ID cards for another; and the failing NHS computer fiasco (£20 bn latest estimate) for a third. There's plenty like that So don't be daft please.
=-=-=-=-
Ben R: Since the party line is not remotely conservative the fact that you back it makes you too not rem- - - - mmm
AND "like UKIP are despite the ideas of Mrs Speight" Eh what?
AND if Cameron can't get more than a 4% lead when LibDems are weak and Labour are committing hara-kiri there must be something wrong with the man
=-=-=-=-=-
Cllr Keith Standring says it all - the party's heading for the rocks.


"92.7 approve" Stalinist that!" 13:18

For it to have been Stalinist it would have been "100% approve". ;)


Christina, you've made a list of what you consider to be waste. My point is that, provided each item can be unambiguously demonstrated to be waste, nobody is going to object to it being cut. If there's a saving, we can bank it and, at the next budget, George will be in the wonderful position of having money to return. But promising tax cuts before we've achieved the savings is leaving a hostage to fortune. We have no idea, for example, how expensive the war on terror will become.

Mark,

Imagine you are a shopkeeper, and you are one of 10 who sell similar products.

You are a long established, blue-chip business but have been gradually losing more and more customers to some newer rivals who have undercut you in price and are using the money to save up to build a superstore in the future that could wipe you out completely.

How would you respond?

Keep charging your dwindless customer base every higher prices to "stabilise" your income or seek to compete with your rivals and win back more customers before your rivals reach a point where they can destroy your whole business?

I used to argue with libertarians that tax cuts were not the be-all and end-all of Conservatism.

However they were sincere and principled in their views and I respected them for that. In the meantime I have come increasingly to agree with them.

What principles are being offered by the Cameron team. Even the "ethical" soundbites on Darfur etc. are plainly coming to nothing.

Carlyle writes of "decadent ages in which no Ideal either grows or blossoms. When Belief and Loyalty have passed away, and only the cant and false echo of them remains; and...the Creed of persons in authority has become one of two things: an Imbecility or a Machiavelism."

Can we be sure that our party is not now passing through such a despicable era?

Chad, following your line of argument to its conclusion, we should just become China or India. I’m afraid that your ‘UK is a shop’ analogy is too simplistic to be of much use.

The false argument often used in this Tory taxation debate is that, unless you promise tax cuts, you believe in high tax. That’s just not true. What is true is that the same people who criticise David Cameron for “breaking his EPP promise” (the Usual Suspects) now want him to make another promise on tax cuts, even though tax cuts are far harder to achieve.

There are two sensible routes to lower taxation: reduce demand on public services and encourage growth. Shifting tax and regulation away from business, the economy’s engine room, achieves both. So does taking seriously the causes and solutions of crime and poverty. Unfortunately, when David Cameron talks about empowering charities because they do the job better than government, the Usual Suspects deride his comments as ‘hug a hoodie’.

This suprises me, even though i'm one of the people who left. Guess you cant believe everything you see on the BBC.

It's not much of setback though. DC doesn't really need rank and file party members to hand out leaflets anymore, now that the whole of the BBC has come on board. The membership count should have included them.

Christina, a few weeks ago you described your creed as to why you are a Conservative. I agreed with every word of it. Yet I believe in David Cameron and in how he will acheive a Conservative Government. How is it that we both believe in the same creed, yet you hate DC with a vengeance and I believe he will return us to Government, getting rid of the most horrendous theiving nasty corrupt Government we've had since the last Liberal Government.

I would like to point out to you that UKIP are a separate party, not a branch of the Conservative Party as so many people seem to think.

I think for the Party to have a 4% lead when it has next to no policies announced yet is pretty impressive. We will roll out good, balanced, Conservative policies in good time.

I would like to hear whether or not you were one of the many members who demanded loyalty during the leadership of Iain Duncan Smith? Because I gave that loyalty, even though the tone of much of the policy at the time gave my moral code a great deal of trouble. I was sorely tested. But I remained loyal because the broad base of Conservative ideals were still there. They remain to this day, and DC will not wish to change them. It is not beyond the realms of change to demand loyalty from those who once demanded it themselves.

The Change that DC is demanding from our party is in our language and our presentation, in our outlook on the world. We need to recognise that this Country has moved on from the 1980's and we have to adapt to the fact that we are 6 years into the 21st Century. I support Change to Win, Win for Britain, because I believe in the renewal of the Party. I can't see the party of the 80's winning a general election now.

The Change that DC is demanding from our party

Cameron DEMANDS? Who the hell does he think he is? I didn't vote for him anyway.

When I joined the party Cameron was six years old. I'll choose my own language rather than be dictated to by this PC puppy.

Roll on the day when this party is again ruled by a real man.

David Davis.

Chad , if i had to believe everything a party said to support them i would be in a party of one.

Well, I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but sometimes I need to have a little fun...

Cameron DEMANDS? Who the hell does he think he is? I didn't vote for him anyway.

Well, I think he thinks he's the Leader of the Party - and he's right. More to the point, who do you think you are? You didn't vote for him? Tough. A majority of us did - and we won. That's called democracy, something the likes of you are usually bleating on about.

Roll on the day when this party is again ruled by a real man. David Davis.

Who is currently an excellent Shadow Home Secretary. The leadership election was last year, remember? Move on.

Chad , if i had to believe everything a party said to support them i would be in a party of one.

Actually David, I seem to remember Chad's already tried that before. I think he left it, although I'm not sure why. It's entirely possible that he fell out with himself, I suppose.

For your information Richard, I was doing real work getting my hands dirty for this party long before Cameron wafted fragrantly onto the scene seeking a job for life.

I didn't choose Cameron and therefore I have no reason to have any loyalty to the man whatsoever. My loyalty is to my country, a loyalty Cameron, and possibly you, clearly don't share.

I've asked this before and now I'm asking you. How do you define a "troll"?

Someone who doesn't agree with your sycophantic posts, perhaps?

For your information Richard, I was doing real work getting my hands dirty for this party long before Cameron wafted fragrantly onto the scene seeking a job for life.

I didn't choose Cameron and therefore I have no reason to have any loyalty to the man whatsoever. My loyalty is to my country, a loyalty Cameron, and possibly you, clearly don't share.

I've asked this before and now I'm asking you. How do you define a "troll"?

Someone who doesn't agree with your sycophantic posts, perhaps?

My loyalty is to my country, a loyalty Cameron, and possibly you, clearly don't share.

Firstly, I'm glad you put the possibly in there - you know nothing about my loyalties and should not presume to do so.

For your information Richard, I was doing real work getting my hands dirty for this party long before Cameron wafted fragrantly onto the scene seeking a job for life.

So long as you keep agitating for a preposterous change of leader at this time, it really doesn't make me like you any better. Some of us are still getting on with the "real work". Personally, I want to win, or I wouldn't be here. Is that sycophantic? I'd call it a positive approach to life.

And perhaps I do need to find a better term than "troll" for you and your kind on here, but it seemed the most polite one I could come up with that fitted! I am sure you can understand that my frustration sometimes mounts in the face of the continual unconstructive criticism of those of us who are actually working.

Cameron Demands.....

He may be Leader, but he leads an organisation in which the money is raised, and the donkeywork done, by VOLUNTEERS. We can all decide it is not worth the bother if we choose - let the MPs and Cameroons pay the bills and walk the streets across the country. In my own neck of the woods many are just giving up and are considering disengaging from a party which is alienating them systematically. Bromley suggest voters are already stepping away from Dave's brave new Blairite-Tory world.

True leaders lead: weak men "demand".

Cameron Demands.....

Tam,

While I might have encouraged these words to live on from someone else's post above (in the interests of stirring the pot with Wally there!), I don't believe Cameron has personally "demanded" anything of anyone, before you throw your toys out of the pram (again). He has, however, made a compelling case for change that we would have ignored at our peril.

He has, based on the mandate he was given as Leader, laid out a strategy going forward. I think that if he hadn't, you would be among the first to accuse him of weak leadership.

Unfortunately, however, the tone of your post suggests that you're unwilling to find anything at all good in our current direction, even less to help it. I'm sorry for that, but we have set a course now - I only hope we can persuade you to hop on board at a later stage.

Richard, since you supported my post I'll support yours. I was wrong to say that DC has demanded anything, you're right, he has merely laid out a strategy to win.

Tam in reply to your soundbite of 'True leaders lead, weak men demand' I would simply respond by pointing out that a key aspect of effective leadership is the ability to manage change within the culture of an organisation.

David has managed the change in culture better than most. We are finally shedding the disastrous language of the last fifteen years, phrases that have turned off the voters faster than you can blink.

We are finally shedding our obsession with Europe, which has allowed our enemies to portray us as Little Englanders afraid to look out on the world. This has cost us seats, especially in Scotland, where the portrayal as 'The English Party' has badly damaged us, almost as much as the portrayal of Labour as 'The Scottish Party' will damage them.

I believe that the leadership that David Cameron has shown on issues like the Environment, which are key to attracting younger, more active members, in order to replace those who are unfortunately passing away at an ever greater rate, is excellent. David Cameron is an excellent Leader of the Conservative Party, and will make an excellent Prime Minister.

Cameron's "mandate" included his pledge to come out of the EPP... which he has effectively abandoned.

EU obsession? Wait until corpus juris hits our legal system, with abolition of jury trial & habeas corpus and other safeguards in our own law - then you will see (too late) why some of us believe that all other issues become irrelevant if we give up control over our own governance. PS - the above will happen when our veto on criminal justice matters is given up later this week...

As for "change": change into what? Certainly not anything like a conservative party with the central planks of conservatism (such as low tax & less government) thrown out. Is it a case of "anything to gain power"? What is the point if the end result is yet more Blairism?

Some of you talk as if I am not a conservative. Er... I was Constituency Deputy Chairman (Campaiging) until March, with 30-odd years of pounding the streets for the Conservatives under my belt.

I have not left the Party: but it is leaving me (and many others). See you at Party Conference next month...

Built To Last cannot be implemented without quitting the EU. Murdoch is offering nil support to Cameron, which implies the EU are operating against him and see him as a threat. Support Cameron. He bowls reverse spin. It's too subtle for the crowd to pick up, and the commentators prefer to talk about his run-up. Cameron's about winning the series, not the one days.

Richard you may be frustrated by other Tories who are not supporting "your man".

The rest of us are increasingly frustrated by a Tory leadership which is increasingly living in a world of its own, totally isolated not only from the thinking of the membership, but also from the equally embittered and worried citizens of this country.

Blair's Britain is, as Hague rightly said, "a foreign land" for decent patriotic Tories.

What really turned me off Cameron when he first burst onto the scene was his injunction to Tories to love "Blair's Britain". Well I am afraid I see nothing to love in the squalid and dangerous mess my country has become, but since Cameron when on to tell the press he was "the heir to Blair" his sentiments were perhaps not surprising.

Whatever Cameron is saying personally the language and beliefs of the membership on Euroipe and much else remain unchanged, so any ultra liberal new members could be in for a jolt. Actually Ben you know very well the truth of the matter because you have just admitted on another thread that membership is probably falling and that three of your colleagues have recently died.

Apart from everything else it is fatal to sell the Tory Party as a new product when, plainly, it is actually nothing of the sort. In the final analysis spin has to be backed up with some substance.

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