70% say it's 'time for a change'

The headline numbers in the latest ICM survey for The Guardian* are a little disappointing for Cameron's Conservatives.  The Tories only enjoy a 4% lead on the eve of the Labour and Tory conferences although they will hope that lead will increase if Labour's conference is, as expected, fractious and the Tory conference is a showcase for Cameron's greener, gentler conservatism.  Below the headline, ICM's latest findings do offer encouragement for the Conservatives.

70% of voters agreed with one of the most powerful slogans in politics - that it was 'time for a change'.  The people surveyed by ICM didn't appear to believe that Gordon Brown represented that change.  The Conservative lead increased to +6% with Gordon Brown in charge.

Also below the headline ICM findings are a series of findings that show people are increasingly preferring Cameron to Brown.  The figures below indicate Cameron's advantage on the listed attributes:

• Most pleasant personality +35%
• Most able to work with his colleagues +17%
• Most enthusiasm for the job +12%
• Most honest +8%
• Likely to make best Prime Minister +3%
• Most arrogant -21%
• More likely to stab colleagues in the back -23%

* The changes in the ConservativeHome graphic are with Sunday's ICM poll for The Mirror rather than the previous ICM poll for The Guardian.

Comments

[sjm]

I think the Cameron/Conservative Party rebranding can be compared with the success that Stuart Rose is having with M&S - we all knew that M&S was reliable etc, but the designs were tired and there was no impetus to even cross the threshold of a store. Rose realised that he had to advertise, and focus on bringing people back in.

However much those of us involved in politics may wish the public took things as seriously as we do, Cameron has faced life as it is and dealt with it; a slow and steady improvement in the polls is much more solid than huge peaks and troughs.

The emphasis on green taxes and public service etc may not suit me personally but I have to acknowledge that so far, his tactics are working.

[kingbongo]

sjm - this is quite right but I'm afraid you can expect quite a lot of stick for daring to suggest Cameron may be succeeding in his dastardly plan to put a Conservative government in place

[Robert McIlveen]

Beware likeability! Kinnock was ahead of Thatcher on many measures of likeability, but was trounced on the measure that counts: best PM. While I agree Cameron is succeeding in creating a more attractive Conservatism, we're not there yet (although I'm sure we'll get there).

[TomTom]

that Stuart Rose is having with M&S -

Again - politics as shopping.

Well frankly I would think Philip Green could do a better job, he is a better merchandiser.....and if M&S thinks selling electricals is the way forward they are doomed.

[Monday Clubber]

The police are practically on the point of feeling Blair's collar and what do we have? A mere 4% advantage in the polls, down from an alleged 10% lead a week or two ago.

As I've said before, the Cameron effect is soft, and comparisons with Brown are not comparing like with like. I wonder how well Cameron would have scored before he became party leader? Very badly I suspect.

I'm not convinced that Cameron represents traditional Tories like me, or that he intends to champion Conservative principles. It's apparent from reading the views expressed here that my view is shared by a growing number of activists, including some who voted for Cameron.

Cameron has been lucky in that, apparet from one or two minor mishaps ("flip-flop", bike+limousine) he has had very little downside so far.

I'm reliably informed that the press have been digging to see what they can find. If Cameron loses that "Mister Clean" image we could be in for a very bumpy ride.

[Lord Haw Haw]

Another poll lead for Cameron Conservatives - what a disaster! If only IDS was still in charge we could have done a Thialand and never have to worry about polls again!

[James Maskell]

Monday Clubber, a "bumpy ride" is something Im sure were already very much used to...

[Monday Clubber]

I wonder what David Cameron would have to say about a "supporter" who names himself after an evil traitor and Nazi.

Very difficult to take seriously the views of someone who chooses to use such a vile ID.

[Chad]

'change' is what we already are left with after the taxman has taken all our pounds.

We'll have even less when Blair and Cameron plunder our coffers even further to repay their current and future debts with state funding.

For people like me, it does not matter if Blair/Brown/Cameron/Campbell are PM, as none of them are passionate small government, low tax, pro-grammar, anti positive discrimination etc.

Of course we need modern policies, but they must be fused to, not replace a solid conservative base.

[Jack Stone]

I wouldn`t say the majority on this site but a large number would be dancing in the streets if polls showed the party behind Labour.
It doesn`t seem to have got into there many thick heads yet that a Cameron government would give them far more of what they want then a Brown government would ever do.
If you want higher taxes, greater European intergration and eventually the single currency then my message to them is keep on doing what your doing!

[Graham D'Amiral]

Whilst our lead fluctuates a bit from poll to poll what has been clear for quite a while is that since David Cameron became leader people have looked much more favourably at the prospect of voting Conservative. With the exception of a rather silly recent poll from Mori no polling organisation has pointed to a Labour lead for many months.

We saw this at the Lib dem conference how angry they are that Cameron's liberal conservatism has reduced Britain's third party to an irrelevance. At the same time there is no doubt that it is a Conservative revival that is causing Labour to panic so much about their own leadership.

Now is a great time to be a Conservative, we have much more to do of course, but we should be looking forward to meeting that challenge.

[George Hinton]

It's a poll and the they are not accurate, in any event there is still a while to go yet, unless we choose the Roumanian option. We must not make the same mistake as Kinnock and believe the polls, the electorate are clever and will really make their minds up when an actual election arrives. For the time being polls only give an indication that cannot be relied upon. Dave needs to concentrate on sensible policy and actually listen to the people and combine their needs with that policy and arrive at an action that makes the party electable.

[Monday Clubber]

And it doesn't seem to have got into your head, Jack, that our current lead is built on sand. It's almost all down to Labour's huge current difficulties.

I grant you that Cameron is seen as more photogenic than his predecessors, but there wasn't really much competition was there?

When it comes down to substance rather than style there's really very little on offer.

Of course I want us to win, and I want us to win on the basis of sound Tory tax-cutting polices, and that's not just a matter of honesty and principle.

In the final analysis it's the only way we are actually going to win. We will win by giving the electorate an ALTERNATIVE VISION.

It's not happening now.

[christina speight]

Sim - " a slow and steady improvement in the polls" ??? In recent polls there has been a steady SHRINKING of the Tory lead. TAKEN WITH ---- "his tactics are working." You may be right but only if his goal is to wreck the Party for ever. People have seen through him.

Others see this puny AND DIMINISHING lead as a triumph. A 10% lead is the MINIMUM needed for a Tory government and that prospect gets more remote by the day. And this at a time when the party has every advantage going for it. The mind boggles at such facile optimism.

Face it! The public can see no good reason to vote Conservative. What's on offer? More taxes apparently.

[James Maskell]

Comparing this one to the last ICM Guardian poll, the Tories have shed 4 points while Labour have picked up 1. The Lib Dems stay the same.

[malcolm]

Glad Camerons poll ratings are much better than opponents but the poll is a warning for the whole political class, the figures on honesty show that the majority of people assume that most political leaders are liars.

[John]

Excellent piece by George Walden in the Guardian G2 today, taken from his book,'New Elites' Walden one of the clearest thinkers in politics, might be worth a link.

Quite a day for the 'Guardian' what ever your politics, its still the paper with some of the most thought provoking writing around, love it or loath it: best poll analysis too. The Telegraph has 'lost it' desperately needs a new direction.

The poll, the next GE will not be a beauty contest, what that poll tells me is, Labour have not collapsed, despite all the battering they have taken, the Labour vote is resiliant, the Libdems are holding their own, the Conservatives, despite Cameron are not making the break through they have been hoping for!

[TomTom]

I wonder what David Cameron would have to say about a "supporter" who names himself after an evil traitor and Nazi.

actually a member of the British Union of Fascists who ended up in Germany and was hanged as a traitor even though he was American not British

[Mark Fulford]

Didn’t the Usual Suspects gleefully prophesize that David Cameron wouldn’t survive Labour’s “100-day onslaught”? I don’t remember any admissions of error when that totally failed to materialise.

Now those same Suspects are gleefully spewing hyperbole that David Cameron has not managed, in only 9 months, to build an unassailable lead to a majority government – an expectation that 10 months ago would have been totally unreasonable. It’s quite ridiculous.

When David Cameron wins a majority in the next election, I want to see those Usual Suspects publicly eat their hats, and if they choke on them, so much the better.

[anon]

Looking at the figures I am concerned that although Cameron is seen as a nice chap (+35%) he has only a slender lead in the PM stakes (+3%). Thoughts?

[Old Hack]

Let's see how the polls look after the Party conference season. This ICM poll is a fillip for the Lib Dems but coming at the time that it does is frankly irrelevant.

If we are still sitting at 36% four weeks from now and start dipping in other polls then the growing groundswell of discontent evoked by the mass abstention of members in the Built to Last ballot may well gain traction elsewhere.

We all expected the LDs to have a bad conference but it was not as bad as it might have been. If Labour manage to get their act together next week Team Cameron may have more of a bumpy ride ahead.

We cannot rely on the opposition destroying themselves to make ourselves electable. At best we are still talking hung Parliament territory here.

If this conference is all about 'change' and not about policy and projecting purpose its going to get interesting. Style over substance equals subsidence.

[Angelo Basu]

There's probably a long way to go before a General Election so the key figure in the poll is the headline figure about people thinking it is time for a change. The challenge from that is to continue to build on the Conservatives being the change most preferred.

I doubt that any of Blair's successors would on the current state of the polls and within memory of the infighting that the leadership campaign will involve will look for a quick GE- so the thing to do will be to continue to nurture the yearning for change now and after the new Labour leader is in place.

While I'd like to see a strong and clear set of alternative policies showing exactly what we would do as the Government, clamouring for it now is premature. New Labour is very good at stealing our ideas if they are appealing ones and the case for change is weakened if the new Labour PM takes up key bits of our platform.

Likeability is an important thing for us, not just in DC but more generally. For too long we have been caricatured effectively as not being a party that can be voted for in conscience by anyone "nice". That feel is more important than the detail of policy for a lot of ordinary people.

[Lord Haw Haw]

Monday Clubber - I thought all Cameron supporters were traitors and deserved to be hung? Or am I reading u wrong.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Vapid CommieRon's handlers seem not to realise just how ephemeral polls are - I concede each supporter gained is good news but when each supporter gained is at the cost of a dedicated activist you are being lulled into a false sense of wellbeing.
The Tory Pary is now led on a course to follow the Whiggs into the history books by a man who had to lie about the EU to even get elected.
It is not a case of refusing to address the elephant in the room it is clear that the dinosaurs in the party are deliberately hiding the elephants and as a result the backbone of the Tories is withering - polls may be up but activists are leaving in droves.
Poor little CommieRon is dashing around with his false science, false friends and false policies BUYING votes but until he addresses Conservative values and the corruption and errosion of these United Kingdoms by vassal status in the EUropean soviet he deserves to lose.
At an election TODAY Labour would be back in with less voters voting than ever before and a very slightly reduced majority. The activists who went out and WORKED and brought in 100s of 1,000s of votes have been replaced by single votes to make a pretty but useless poll result.
PLEASE wake up! Address how you will repatriate democracy, restore Justice, reinstate self determination, a fundamental right of man, overturn The Treaty of Elysee and expose the corruption and invalidity of the ECA. THEN we might have a Tory Government in Britain and failing all else we might have Britain!
Greg L-W.

[TomTom]

Voters want a change..........they just don't like any of the parties on offer............

[Afleitch]

Greg, I know Europe appears to be an important issue for you and one that obviously attracts attention, but a campaign based pretty much solely on Europe and tac cuts (as in 2001) won't work. Europe may appeal to the party activist, but the ordinary voter has more important things to worry about such as education, health, balancing family life and making a good life for themselves. Secondly anyone who uses belittling words like 'CommieRon' and capital letters is clearly someone who shouldn't be taken seriously.

Our party is having a good year, solid poll leads since the spring, seen as trusted, united, seen as best able to deliver on health and education of all things and a popular leader. This time last year it was only a pipe dream and now it's a reality. It's time to wake up.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Tom Tom you may well be right - however is it the duty of the Tory party to lead not follow?
Remember the calamitous result of 'Time for a Change' in 1997 - we moved from poor, incompetent government to unarguably corrupt and debased government. We moved from SOME febrile control of our destiny to debasement and a parliament of self seekers and rascals. It is increasingly the age of the barbarian and like the times of Justinius the barbarians are at the gates and infiltrating the QUANGOcracy.
Those awake will already realise Westminster no longer has a meaningful role in this new police State where over 80% of all Law is ordered by EU diktat to overide Justice.
To appreciate the the 'change' brought about by 'Time for a Change' in 1997 see the collapse of Westminster read the debates of either Houses a mere 10 years ago and compare them with the ya boo and self serving chavery of today!
Beware the over simplicity of 'Time for a Change' it inevitably leads to a 'who can be more irresponsible competition' and sadly Vapid CommieRon and his handlers might win the Vapid race for 'change'.
What the voters want is a change to clear decisive pro British LEADERSHIP or yet again they will stay away in droves.
The Tories will not win by trying to apeal to ANY sector other than those who have wisely abandoned them and refused to vote.
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi Afleitch - there is no aim to belittle with the name Vapid CommieRon merely state the facts - Tory policy is increasingly Vapid and populist losing activists in droves much of what is being peddled is soft Communism along the lines of Common Purpose, EU Social Fund scams, dud science based on populist apeal.
The Tories are having a calamitous year - they are gaining popularity with the fickle and losing the committed.
That the electorate has failed to wake up to the fact that Education, Transport, Taxation, Food Regulation, Destruction of agriculture, collapse of manufacturing, poor equipping of our military, incompetence of our police, extension of licensing laws, drug related crime, Health and the balancing act of life are all directly controlled by the unelected apparatchiks of the EUropean soviet and the undemocratic process of QMV by aliens with no interest in Britain or the well being of our peoples is a huge endictment of The Tory party who have failed to lead, failed to explain, failed to educate the electorate and are now failing to hang onto activists.
That I use capitals is merely for your assistance just as sentences, punctuation and other devices in literature are used capitals are of use in keyboard conversation! Ignore those using this modern styling at your peril tho U may h8 it!
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Goldie]

It's pretty blindingly obvious that the Cameron idea is simply wrong.

This country is crying out for some thoughtful opposition -- instead he is giving them "more of them same".

Too bad, because an articulate politician like Cameron could have been a very opposition spokesman. If only he had stayed true to his previous ideology.

[Angelo Basu]

Do we really want Cameron to be just an opposition spokesman?

There is one party, UKIP, that is taking the anti-EU line and if the story is as strong as it is strongly felt by GL-W then that party should be the one to back and the one to sweep through into power. That it hasn't really caught on is perhaps telling. There's an interesting article in the latest edition of the Spectator about the unlikelihood of the UKIP policy of leaving the EU and joining EFTA so perhaps the problem is that on balance taking the bad things about membership of the EU is better than being completely outside the EEA and not even getting the old Common Market principles that were what we originally joined.

I suppose there's another in the BNP but that's likely to be less appealing to many Conservatives in the extreme socialist economic policies it would put in place if freed from "alien" influence.

[christina speight]

In the time I've been visiting this blog I've noticed a sea-change in postings. Previously there were a few of us pointing out that the emperor has no clothes and that he's leading us to disaster. Now it's the majority theme.

Doing sweet nothing for months accounts for the continuing slide in the Tory lead.

[Chad]

"There is one party, UKIP, that is taking the anti-EU line and if the story is as strong as it is strongly felt by GL-W then that party should be the one to back and the one to sweep through into power. That it hasn't really caught on is perhaps telling."

Hi Angelo,
Seeing as there has been a supermarket theme this week I'll continue it.

UKIP is currently like a supermarket that sells just the nation's favourite item x.

X may be extremely popular, but most people simply don't go there as they want a whole range of items as well as x, and so go to the other supermarkets that offer everything but x.

UKIP have now learnt this vital lesson and are thus beginning to stock their shelves with other items to sit alongside x.

[Angelo Basu]

Chad- as they should. It'll be interesting to see if it catches on.

Having torn itself up over Europe in the Major years there was an opportunity for the Conservatives to have taken the "out" position (we could hardly have done worse electorally) but now it is something which would consign us to another decade of Labour and in many moderate Tory areas even further encroachment by the LibDems.

[christina speight]

Angelo - I think you're wrong when you say "is something which would consign us to another decade of Labour and in many moderate Tory areas even further encroachment by the LibDems"

Antagonism to the EU is widespread, and, in the case of the referendum we never got, overwhelmingly hostile. There are daily press reports of how the EU is stitching us up in relatively small matters like this week's child car seats.

The case for leaving needs the impimatur of a major party to succeed but if the Tories would give that lead I believe the effects would be dramatic.

Of course the route is via demands for major EU reforms which we make a condition for continued membership. France would lead the veto to that request. We would then set in motion the procedures for leaving and call their bluff. But the real point is that we make those demands ones that are popular here with Britons and thus take a majority with us into the show-down.

Either way we win. If the others accede to the demands the EU would no longer be the monolithic bureaucratic giant. If they don't we leave and save ourselves £12bn a year. (btw the Rest would have to find that £12 bn elsewhere!!! That would really hurt]

[Wallenstein]

In the time I've been visiting this blog I've noticed a sea-change in postings. Previously there were a few of us pointing out that the emperor has no clothes and that he's leading us to disaster. Now it's the majority theme.

I've noticed it too, Christina and it's excellent news. Seems the penny is dropping. The more Tories see of Cameron in action the more suspicious they become.

Of course we get the usual chorus that we're only in it to win. Well I afraid that's not good enough. If we win the election but totally surrender the intellectual arguments we will end up worse than ever with TWO Labour Parties and no effective opposition.

That would be an appalling situation. Already Sir Menzies Campbell has savaged Cameron and his clique as a “substance-free zone”, despite the fact that David Cameron personally wrote “one of the most reactionary, unpleasant, right-wing manifestoes of modern times”

These are serious charges. The real problem is that we have no adequate answers to them.

[Andrew]

ICM Sep/05: Con 31, Lab 40, LD 21
ICM Sep/06: Con 36, Lab 32, LD 22

Excepting maybe another 1/2% of Blair's personal vote who may return to us, there's very little else to pick up. Labour is down to its core vote - where else can we pick up a few? The Libs are where they've been for years, more or less.

Ruling out the type of xenophobia that would bring votes from the BNP and a fair chunk of UKIP, and with our popularity in Wales/Scotland not improving, it looks rather like 40% is the upper limit of realistic ambition for a modern Tory party.

Yikes.

[Angelo Basu]

I think it would take a long time to translate the latent anti-EU feelings of the public into a conviction that the ONLY way to do the things that people want, improving education, health, general prosperity would be to leave the EU.

Perhaps that is true but it is a hard sell when coming against the view that things can be improved without taking that huge step.

[David Belchamber]

Old Hack @ 11.27:
"If this conference is all about 'change' and not about policy and projecting purpose its going to get interesting. Style over substance equals subsidence".
Absolutely correct; if we do not get "more matter, with less art" (Hamlet), I think disaffection will become very widespread and a lot of the good achieved by DC's leadership will be dissipated.
That would be a great pity, because BtL, although a bit schematic and showing some glaring omissions, is still a much better letter of intent than Nulab's "spend even more money and set more targets".
The Lib Dems still do not compete.

[Mark Fulford]

UKIP is currently like a supermarket that sells just the nation's favourite item x.

The nation's favourite item??? This item being withdrawal from the EU which, according to YouGov, is supported by only 24% and, according to Mori, is one of the top two issues for a whole 4% of people. Talk about talking-up your product!

[Wallenstein]

We can soon talk up the nations's hatred of the EU if we want to.

Tell them the facts and how much we can save by leaving this fascistic money pit and they'll be gagging for it.

Can't see Cameron doing it though

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi, you don't all feel you just might be missing the point do you?

That the FACT that the imposition of the EU on almost all aspects of our lives is undeniable; if the Tories clearly took a position of leadership in explaining this truth would soon raise the profile of the EU's involvement and the anger surrounding its arrogany hubris.

We have had unarguably corrupt politicians concealing the truth about the Evils of the Union and endless lies and threats/fear presented, yet a clear majority of the peoples of these United Kingdoms would prefer independence to vassal status.

Just think how a sea change to leadership would sweep the Tories into power if they managed to explain the damage and cost of interference of the EUropean soviet.

To date NO ONE has ever managed to present a single solitary achievement or benefit of the EUropean soviet, other than its self seeking expansive greed corruption and profligacy, that anyone of integrity could be proud of when measured against its staggering costs, massive bureaucracy and obscene downside risks.

IF the Tories had the courage to lead they would not attract new supporters maybe but they would be elected by a landslide of returning voters rather than watch Labour be re-elected by a mud slide of apathy yet again!

Explain the EU and its police state supra national dictatorial denial of democratic self determination and within 2 years Britain would have a Tory majority, but Vapid CommieRon and his wrecking crew who had to lie about the EU to get elected will lead to Nemesis for the Tories.
Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Joanna Yelf]

Greg what you write makes a lot of sense. If only our leaders would see the menace of the EU for what it is.

Will we even have the Queen in a few years time? Also, as a committed Christian I'm worried about the influence of the Roman Church.

Are you one of us or a supporter of UKIP?

[Cardinal Pirelli]

This thread is quite unbelievable in its tenuous hold on reality; the ICM poll has shown a 6.5% swing in just twelve months away from labour to the Conservative party.

I do hope that these headbangers are propped up in front of a camera for the new internet TV station because I'd like to be able to smirk at them in person rather than in cyberspace.

[Cardinal Pirelli]

By the way, terrorist sympathisers such as Mr Lance-Watkins have no place on this site.

Look at UKIP uncovered and type in his name, it's not pretty.

[Wallenstein]

We're all agreed that there has been an apparent swing to the Tories.

What's in doubt is the reason for that swing and whether it can be sustained.

If the reason you favour is that people think "Dave" has a nice smile then I would suggest that the roots of our apparent success are very shallow indeed.

I think the real reason is Labour turmoil. Paradoxically my reason gives Cameron a bigger chance of pulling something off if that turmoil continues.

But will it?

[Mark Fulford]

Why is the government suddenly in turmoil? I'd suggest that, for the first time since 97, we have a leader that is putting them under pressure and causing panic in the ranks.

[matt wright]

I think we have been doing better and it is a good time to be a Conservative but we need to be wary. The poll lead seems to have plateaued at less than we need to win. I think we need to be more practical and show some substance,

Matt

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,
In response to Joanna Yelf: I'm one of the many Millions you need to attract back!

I have supported UKIP for many years as our lifeboat but in view of the undeniable fact that to steal 45% of the vote and end up with less than 3,500 votes cast of the realistic membership of only some 10-12.5 1,000 Nigel Farage had to collude and acquiesce to cheating, lies, dishonesty and a full blown smear campaign I find them hard to support.

Farage WAS an excellent sales rep but sadly he seems to have sunk back to his roots as a barrow boy city trader with no integrity just self importance - such a damaging loss to EUroRealism!

It is noted that the new EUKIP is so bereft of ability that they fielded a recognised and admitted liar and fraudster as their rep at the CIB meeting on Thursday, no wonder some members complained - Tom Wise's morality is no representative of values I could espouse, neither was Knapman's lack of morality and hypocracy and his willingness to exploit EU law and people trafficking for personal gain!

EUKIP make it hard to support them with their lack of training, briefing papers, coherent strategy, leadership or integrity - their accounts would seem to be deliberately obscure and there is clearly an air of arrogant self enrichment and abusive ill manners of a clique at the top.

That said - on matters pertaining to the EU they would seem to be the only Party one could honestly support at the moment.

Even the Tory leadership realises the importance of the EU in British politics is such that to be elected Tory leader it was essential for him to lie about his EU attitudes!

It is time a major Party openly started to discuss the damage done to Britain by the betrayal of our values, ethics and peoples by vassal status in the undemocratic, corrupt and centralised supra national EUropean soviet, in which we have NO meaningfull influence.

UKIP's role, clearly has been, to keep the flame of freedom alive and act as a lever on the concience of politicians and their apparatchiks.

As UKIP it bumped along doing not a lot bar squabbling, but at the 2004 EU elections it moved to a role as EUKIP it seems with the lure of cash and wealth, grandure and going native with comfotable seats on the gravy train. It has done little for its members, save watch them wither dwindling from around 30,000 to some 12,500 currently active by virtue of enlarging their staff and comfort and losing sight of the aims.

Don't the new EUKIP sound remarkably like Vapid CommieRon's New Tories - so much in common even that both new leaders lied to get the job! Both new leaders seek populism at the expense of activism and value poll results above commitment - both driving away the core support in persuit of self agrandising fickle popularity!

I will never give my name, as a member, to the calibre of rascals and parasites at the forefront of either party as they now stand, but I will vote - based on the interests of the liberty, probity, integrity, justice and values of the best interests of these United Kingdoms acting with global self confidence once more an independent sovereign State.

There are around 5,000,000 ex Tories out ther who, just like me, will not vote for Vapid CommieRon or his dishonest populism.

It is the workers you need so to quote their playtime 'Wakeyyyyy Wakeyyyyy'.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

In response to the silly comment of Cardinal Pirelli:
>"By the way, terrorist sympathisers such as Mr Lance-Watkins have no place on this site.
Look at UKIP uncovered and type in his name, it's not pretty."<

Perhaps I could draw his attention to Rudyard kippling's stanza:
If you can hear the words you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools.

May I suggest you do not duplicitously over simplify!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Joanna Yelf]

Greg thanks for replying but I'm chilled by the vehemence of your opinions.

You seem to be filled with bitterness.

Please, I beg you, show charity and compassion for your opponents.

I hope you are a Christian and can understand the commandment of our Lord Jesus Christ that thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

Joanna Yelf is right to be chilled by the vehemence of my views - I see no action more despicable than betrayal for personal gain.

One wonders what compassion is required of the 1,242,000 British citizens who gave their lives during the 20th. Century for these United Kingdoms only to have their sacrifice betrayed.

I am happy to debate my beliefs and values on a fair basis and seek not to blame any gods for my views. I am a pacifist who believes peace worth fighting for - a patriot who values the values of these United kingdoms that are so glibbly being betrayed by stuffed shirts and political nebishes of over blown importance and little real ability.

I vehemently defend the basic right of man to self determination a fundamental freedom denied by our unlawfull membership of the EUropean soviet that will so clearly and happily risk 200,000,000 deaths across Europe just for its own self seeking gain.

I give no quarter for betrayal more especially when it is for personal gain, do you?

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Richard Carey]

I vehemently defend the basic right of man to self determination a fundamental freedom denied by our unlawfull membership of the EUropean soviet that will so clearly and happily risk 200,000,000 deaths across Europe just for its own self seeking gain.

Couldn't tell he was a UKIPper, could you? What was it? Fruitcakes, nutters and... etc.

Back on-topic, it's good to see this opportunity wide open for us to "be the change" that 70% of respondents are looking for, as well as see DC's lead on so many positive attributes over Brown.

The headline figures tell us there's still alot of work to do though - I'd like to think the forthcoming conference will be a good opportunity to showcase that the changes in the Party are (albeit too slowly) going deeper then just the leadership.

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Poor Richard Carey clearly can't hold a thought in his head for long and even with a clear explanation is nutter enough to think I am a UKIPper!

Clearly the introspective tendency who is only really happy preaching to the converted. Try a reality check and get out more and you will realise it is NOT new supporters the Tories need it is the 5,000,000 you have driven away.

Surely the Tories would welcome back the activists they have alienated with names like fruitcakes and nutters rather than depend on the rump of diminishing activists and the clear collapse of the party activists since Vapid CommieRon lied his way into leadership.

Time for a Change? How about electing a leader!

You have watched the Church of England steadily self destruct based on abandoning its core believers to chase the fickle clappy hand crowd - now you can watch the Tories follow suit with both being led to destruction for lack of leadership under the control of a liberal please everyone lead nowhere committee ridiculing the core of thinking activists in favour of Vapid claque of supporters in polls.

Is election to power at the cost of all principle to be lauded - are the Tories of today no more than a rump of political whores with a gungho disregard for values, principles and morality.

The Conference is no place for politics it is just political incest - like kissing your sister it might make you feel warm and safe but we must hope it leads nowhere!

It would seem that you fail to believe in the defence the basic right of man to self determination as a fundamental freedom - since you ridicule it.

You seem not to realise that right is denied by our unlawfull membership of the EUropean soviet - have you read the EU's corrupt so called Treaties and considered them in the light of the Franco German Treaty of Elysee and British common law? Have you considered our Constitutional inalienable right to democratic rule by our Monarch in Parliament?

Are you so irresponsibly unaware that you do not realise that the EU will so clearly and happily risk 200,000,000 deaths across Europe just for its own self seeking gain?

And you deem to accuse the primarily Tories who have woken up and are desperate for leadership currently supporting UKIP as fruitcakes and nutters on your way out for some fresh air take a risk and look in the hall mirror!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Annabel Herriott]

Monday Clubber. Lord Haw-Haw is a Troll - surely!
Mark F.Agreed. I posted the other day that hats will be eaten when DC gets into his stride over the next couple of years.

[Richard Carey]

Poor Richard Carey clearly can't hold a thought in his head for long

I hope anyone who knows me will probably tell you that's not true! (pardon the conceit)

Greg, that is a good rant. I really don't need to reply when you've underlined my point so eloquently for me, I think. This was particularly disturbing, though:

The Conference is no place for politics it is just political incest - like kissing your sister it might make you feel warm and safe but we must hope it leads nowhere!

While I'm at Conference, I shall be thanking my lucky stars the world is safe as I'm an only child!

on your way out for some fresh air take a risk and look in the hall mirror!

Thanks for the tip - I'll do that. And I like what I see just fine, thanks.

Okay, too much fun for one night, time for me to stop feeding the trolls again...

[Jamie Douglas]

And you deem to accuse the primarily Tories who have woken up and are desperate for leadership currently supporting UKIP as fruitcakes and nutters

as UKIP members are primarily older people who don't like to see change in the world, and as most people with mental health problems are older people, it would seem reasonable to assume that there are a higher percentage of 'fruitcakes and nutters' in UKIP than in other political parties and in the public in general.

:P

[Ben Redsell]

Christina Speight writes 'Doing sweet nothing for months accounts for the continuing slide in the Tory lead'

Andrew writes 'ICM Sep/05: Con 31, Lab 40, LD 21
ICM Sep/06: Con 36, Lab 32, LD 22

Sorry, but continuing slide in the Tory lead Christina? We wouldn't have a lead were it not for DC. We've been trailing for ten years. I see the posts of some on here now as the dying screams of a monster that gripped and paralysed our once great party, one that is now being slain. Change to Win, Win for Britain. The majority of the party voted for it. If you don't like it, then you know where to go. UKIP/BNP and help get Brown elected for a fourth term. Otherwise, shut up and put up, like we had to when IDS was leader.

[Ben Redsell]

Jamie, let's not forget that UKIPs measured and sensible response to being called fruitcakes was to turn up at Conservative Spring Conference in an armoured personnel carrier, like the slightly camp Lieutenant in Hallo, Hallo. Naturally UKIP/BNP are mostly fruitcakes. Under FPTP they can't win a Westminster seat, all they can do is help Brown win a fourth term.

[Richard Carey]

Jamie:
Thanks for defending my point. However, mental health and provision for mental health care in this country is a very serious issue and one that we should be careful not to abuse in political rough-and-tumble. I think Ben's comments about Farage and the armoured personnel carrier underscores my point adequately, though!

Ben:

I would be the first to echo anyone who tells Tory whingers to "get on board or get out of the way" in the face of the best chance we've had in a long time. I would be wary, however with:

then you know where to go. UKIP/BNP and help get Brown elected for a fourth term.

I'm not aguing with the factual correctness, but I would rather people voted for anyone but the BNP. They are a truly odious group of cretins, who have no place at all in modern British political debate. We have unfortunately gained a BNP councillor in my constituency this year, and I will do all I can to ensure that he promptly loses his seat next year.

I think we should return the conversation to how best to exploit the results of this poll, rather than than allow our opponents to fully convert this to yet another UKIP/BNP/EU thread!

[Wallenstein]

>>as UKIP members are primarily older people who don't like to see change in the world, and as most people with mental health problems are older people, it would seem reasonable to assume that there are a higher percentage of 'fruitcakes and nutters' in UKIP than in other political parties and in the public in general.<<

An interesting, if unpleasantly ageist comment from James Douglas.

What he says about UKIP may be true. It is also true many more times over for the Conservative Party, which is much larger than UKIP and has an even older average age now approaching 70.

I can only assume from this absurd remark that James has no experience of the Conservative Party whatsoever

[Greg Lance-Watkins]

Hi,

Richard with your comment:
>"I think we should return the conversation to how best to exploit the results of this poll, rather than than allow our opponents to fully convert this to yet another UKIP/BNP/EU thread!"<

I presume you are merely reverting to type - when confronted with reality bring in the dinosaurs so that we can hide the elephants in the room behind their legs!

It is peurile in the extreme to avoid the big issues and claim victory based on the hidden truth.

No aspect of the Governance of these United Kingdoms is or will ever be under the control of Westminster so posturing for seats in the meuseum is a bit silly.

You overlook the unarguable fact that 5,000,000 Tory supporters have GONE and you need to get them back to achieve anything - many of those voter that still vote have supported UKIP. Insulting them and childishly denouncing your own natural core support surely is political idiocy rather than mildly nutty.

The aim is surely to GET BRITAIN BACK and it would be your aim to achieve that with a Tory Government - I may be wrong but doen't that require increased votes not just increased support?

Whilst EUKIP is in disaray there can be no better time for the Tories to start to explain to those they hope will vote for them that there is not one word of a Tory manifesto that can be implemented even in Government without its compliance and authorisation by the EU.

You might find many of those Millions who abstain out of disgust and apathy will flood back.

To pretend the public do not know detail is silly as it is not detail that is relevant to them as it should be on this allegedly politically aware list but they do know there is a fundamental failure in governance and that it emmanates from our vassal status in the EUropean soviet. The public are not the fools you take them for.

As for the rash attack on one of the largest groups in Britain the baby boomers of 1945/6/7 & 8 perhaps it would be wise rather than gratuitous insults to realise the agegroup most opposed to membership of the EU would seem to be the young!

40 years of propaganda and rigged carricula in schools and still a majority do not want to be ruled by the axis power under the terms of The Treaty of Elysee.

Herd in the dinosaurs but at your peril hide the elephant or the Tories will follow the Whiggs to extinction. NEVER have the Tories been so fractured a fact hidden by excommunication of a huge number of once loyal activists.

5,000,000 lost votes and you crow about a couple of points gained in an unreliable poll that overlooks the collapse of voting!

Roll on the conference to reinforce the tunnel vision and restore the power of blinkers!

Regards,
Greg L-W.

[Opinicus]

This site's poll of polls has seen a 1% drop in the Tory vote since I started looking at this site three monthe ago.
We are now shown as 37% which is six points down on what we need for victory, even though governments always pull it back as an election approaches.
Perhaps one of the Cameron apologists would now explain, how it is intended to bridge that gap - given that policy, principle and tax cuts have all been ruled out.

[Wallenstein]

One wonders whether Ben Redsall's rather unpleasant and anti-inclusive comments apply to his Tory colleagues in Suffolk or wherever it is he hangs out.

Difficult to understand why Ben joined the Tory Party and not some more Ben-friendly centre-left outfit like the Lib Dems.

However, if he's right in suggesting that Cameron wants genuine Tories to join UKIP or the BNP then it follows that genuine Tories will have to wage all-out war against the leftists who have hi-jacked our party.

And for Ben's information the Tory lead has more than halved over the last couple of weeks. That's a dangerous trend, even if he can't see the writing on the wall.

[Richard Carey]

I think we should return the conversation to how best to exploit the results of this poll, rather than than allow our opponents to fully convert this to yet another UKIP/BNP/EU thread!

(Apologies for quoting myself. Must be having an arrogant evening!)

Well, I guess it was just too much to ask of some of this crowd, wasn't it?

[Opinicus]

70% want change! We all want change.

It's a pity then that it's not on offer from Dave and Leftwing.

[Chad]

"Couldn't tell he was a UKIPper, could you? What was it? Fruitcakes, nutters and... etc."

...but he's not.

I believe he votes Tory, but Greg is more than able to answer for himself.

Any more baseless insults you'd like to throw at conservatives, Richard?

Keep it up. The more you scream and insult the more it looks like projection....

It's just too much to get you to discuss the issues, isn' it?

Face it Team Cameron is going to go off the rails and the solid, values-based Tories have gone quiet because they are biding their time until after the next election.

Boy, there'll be some blood drawn then. I can't wait.

[Monday Clubber]

I'm sad to see fellow-Tories resorting to childish mudslinging.

As I've said before I believe the time will come when we have to work with Chad and his UKIP team.

UKIP's excellent new leader Nigel Farage would be top leadership material in the Conservative Party itself; UKIP are very fortunate to have such a star.

Meanwhile there's much reason to believe that Cameron's offbeat take on Conservatism is increasingly out of step with the rank-and-file.

As The Guardian recently commented

“The David Cameron 'brand' is failing to percolate down to the grassroots of his supposedly transformed party, according to a leaked presentation to his inner circle.

The memo...will alarm MPs already concerned that their party is being packaged like a soap powder.

The revelation follows last week's unveiling of the party's new logo, a scribbled green tree which prompted Margaret Thatcher's former press secretary, Bernard Ingham, to suggest that the party had gone 'completely mad'.”

[Richard Carey]

...but he's not [a UKIP supporter].

I really don't care that much - his bizarre rants are enough for me! I was going on the following, however:

GL-W:I have supported UKIP for many years

Seems pretty clear, although Greg does say that he is having difficulty with them now.

Keep it up. The more you scream and insult the more it looks like projection....

That's funny, I always thought I was one of the more moderate posters on here - I certainly don't recall any screaming (not from my end, at least).

It's not too much to debate the issues (well, okay, it was on a Friday night!) but I'm not sure what the value of doing that with opposition (UKIP) supporters on here is.

The results of this poll represent an opportunity, and show Conservatives are moving in the the right direction, nothing more. If we can move far enough and fast enough is another question, one for many of us (inside the Party) to work on.

Boy, there'll be some blood drawn then. I can't wait

Not projecting, are you Chad? I'm suprised to see this kind of language from the guy who writes so often on here about the possibility of co-operation between his party and Conservatives!

[Monday Clubber]

I'm afraid, Richard, with your comments about 'fruitcakes', 'feeding trolls' &c, you yourself started the vicious circle of abuse.

As a fellow Tory, very possibly of longer standing than yourself, I deplore that kind of conduct.

Sadly, you also come across as yet another cardboard cutout "Dave" cheerleader, apparently incapable of original thought. Your "ideology", such as it is, seems not to reach beyond a fanatical desire for Cameron to become PM.

Hopefully, with eventual maturity, will come the realisation that other freely expressed views have equal validity with your own.

[Chad]

"possibility of co-operation between his party and Conservatives!"

Indeed, that is exactly the aim.

But I have no plan to work with left-wing Cameroons as they are as much the opposition to conservatism as Labour and the LibDems.

[Joanna Yelf]

Richard if you deny the personhood of BNP supporters you too are allowing the same poison of hatred to enter your heart.

Why not try to understand their bitterness? Only then can you convert them to the way of decency and understanding.

I know a good kind Christian lady who started to support the BNP because of the terror attacks. I have tried to talk her round. And hope that she will see the error of her ways.

Why do you link UKIP with the BNP. They are not a far-right party.

[Chad]

"Why do you link UKIP with the BNP. They are not a far-right party."

Because it's an easy insult Joanna.

Of course you can't get much more different from libertarian-right and authoritarian-left, but then why worry about policies and truth when a cheap insult will do....

All neatly dispayed in the real world with the BNP picking up votes from disillusioned 'old Labour' as show here

[Monday Clubber]

Joanna you echo what I have said to Richard previously. I think Ben writes in similar vein, sad to say.

I assume that these Cameron Conservatives want to rid themselves of the "Nasty Party" tag.

By resorting to this kind of abuse I am afraid they are going about it the wrong way.

[christina speight]

Ben Redsell - If Cameron can't do better than the current 5% lead with the Labour Party in turmoil and the LibDems in personal scandals galore and a not-enthusiastically endorsed leader then Cameron's "Born to Lose". Hague, IDS and Howard all had a buoyant and confident Labour party to face.

5% is pathetic and if Cameron nevertheless wins give the credit where it belongs to Blair and Brown.

Anyone for joining the "Tories for UKIP" movement whereby the woud-be Tory voters stick together as a cohesive whole but "lend" their votes to UKIP for one election. That way the Conservatives might get a decent leader to LEAD and as well the EU would get centre stage where it belongs.

As Wallenstein says " genuine Tories will have to wage all-out war against the leftists who have hi-jacked our party." Too right. Sign up here!

[Cardinal Pirelli]

It's useful (and typical) that those who have sympathies without the Conservative party use their real names here (well a few don't but their banter with fellow travellers makes their identities clear).

All anyone needs to do is to search the internet and you realise that these people are not lifelong conservatives, they flit around right wing groups, annoying each other, being banned and generally trolling to their heart's content.

[christina speight]

Cardinal Pirelli - Pseudonyms give (a semblance of) power without responsibility which it was said was - - er - - someone's prerogative. ! I accept that for professional reasons this may be necessary but as one here has said " pseudonyms. For devious subterfuge I use several myself".

The fact that critics of Cameron generally use their own names means that they are prepared to stand up and be counted. I am proud to do so.

[Monday Clubber]

A strange comment from "Cardinal Pirelli" who is obviously unwilling to link his own real name with support for the Notting Hill Set.

Personally I don't blame him, but he's at odds with a couple of his (named) confederates both of whom recently sounded off about people who fail to toe the Cameron line "hiding behind" pseudonyms.

I prefer not to identify myself for sound business reasons. At my level of seniority I am unlikely to suffer the same fate as the Orange employee who posted here (what has happened to him?) but I firmly believe that business and politics don't mix.

But to return to Cardinal Pirelli. I wonder who he has in mind? Chad and Christina have been extremely upfront about their political journeys. James Maskell appears
to be a loyal if somewhat disaffected Tory.

In fact most posters who have a strong party pedigree (lifelong or not) and are prepared to talk about it, seem to be taking the Cameron-sceptical view.

But is that really surprising?

[Jamie Douglas]

my comments were meant entirely tounge in cheek.

i'm sad to see that some people took them to be deadly serious.

[Cardinal Pirelli]

Monday Clubber -

Mr Lance Watkins for a start, a name, I am assured, with which Ms Speight is also acquainted. Richard North, similarly.

I believe Mr Maskell is quite young so there is little history to hide away. Chad tends to be amusing rather than splenetic and, as you say, very upfront with his various political movements.

[Tom Collins]

UKIP have many confirmed policies, after they achieve their main aim - withdrawal from the E.U.
All the abuse, criticism, muck-rating and
histrionics are mere sidewhows to distract
voters from the only patriotic/democratic party in the U.K.