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A good debate everyone.After the Editor has had to close two threads recently I am very heartened by the way people have conducted themselves on this thread.

I like the Polish people that I have met and have no objection to them coming to work here. Mind you twenty charabanc loads of Polish workers comeing into Southampton each week could stretch resources.

But what really gets me is all the posters above who imply it is all the fault of indigineous people who are not prepared to work for less money. Have any of you actually read Mr. Brazier's statistics?????
England is has 365 people per klm, the most of any European country, and America and Australia. It may (or may not) interest you to know that the South East of England is the densest populated area in Europe. But no, you all have to crucify anyone who differs from your opinion as more or less racist, for saying things like that. OK people are going to continue to pour into this country and a report 'leaked' today (a government report at that) realises, finally that essential services like schools, hospitals etc. ARE going to be overwhelmed shortly and wants the relevant government departments to draw up emergency plans for coping, of course they won't take any other action themselves as it might mean they have to admit they got it wrong. But no, we must all welcome as many people as can make it to England, without a thought as to what they would/will do when they find that shangri-la no longer exists because it is just too over crowded.

And Jon White 'those' countries don't have as dense a population as we do, even though they maybe poorer, and most of them are not as small in land mass!

Patsy,
I agree the debate should be about how much we might need to invest to accomodate more people and whether it is practical to do so. When we are so densely populated at the moment we need pragmatic policy solutions for schools, hospitals and houses. Otherwise those who feel marginalised will drift to the BNP.

I would agree that many above don't seem to have read the article very thoroughly

Denis (18.37) makes a good point.

College places are not enough - we need on the job training if we want to produce our own skilled workforce in the building sector. I have heard industry repesentatives trying to highlight the shortage of training places and these will all but disappear if skilled workers can be imported for the same price or less. That will seriously reduce the prospects for our already disaffected youth.
At the same time our graduates - already up to the eyes in debt - will be facing unprecedented competition from qualified overseas workers.
What future are we offering our own youth?


I'll just play devil's advocate now, and muse as to what influence the minimum wage has had on employers willingness to employ immigrant workers???

Wish I had come online earlier to see this quite rough debate going on. Here are two strands of Conservatism going at it: one is the free market (they work for less than British workers) and the other is nationalistic (British jobs for British people).

I am fortunate in that I have seen firsthand when I attended my former school the hardworking ethic of many immigrants. One of my friends had a father who owned a shop: and worked more than twelve hours per day to ensure his children get the best possible life. I had many friends whose parents came from overseas and who were on Struggle Street and who worked harder and longer in order to get to the best universities.

Then again, I also saw the divide between different cultural groups which descended into violence. I saw the hatred and bigotry. In the end of the day, this issue is a lot more complicated than people think. We have people wanting to come to Britain because it offers a better future for their children. They are natural Tories and want a better life for their family. Conversely, with this mass migration we experience many socio-cultural clashes.

The Government, in my opinion, should only allow skilled migration into the country and set a limit on the number coming in.

In principle there's a wide range of options which could be explored. For example one would be to allow a quota of people from each foreign country to come here and work for a fixed period, on the clear condition that they would return home at the end of that period and under no circumstances would they attempt to remain here legally or illegally. They would not necessarily be skilled workers: somebody may want to come and accumulate more savings doing unskilled work here for two years than they could if they stayed at home, and that wouldn't necessarily be harmful to our economy or to the indigenous population, or for that matter to the migrants' home countries - see "Poland begs its migrant workers to come home" in the Telegraph today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/01/wpole01.xml

But that presumes that the government is disposed to control the process, and clearly the present government has no desire to do that. From the start their policy has been to maximise immigration under every possible pretext, and if that means that the indigenous population are induced to emigrate then so much the better. That is just one measure of how much they hate and despise us.

What we are seeing is the result of allowing free movemnet of people across the EU when there are huge diparities between the nations. We must not let our country become swamped.

Frank Field is a well-respected politician and he says in the Mail on Sunday "In 2004 almost 1 million people came to live in Britain while 340,000 left to start a new life. If this continues one-tenth of the country's population will will have changed within 5 years."

Does anyone believe that this sort of pace of change is desirable? Yet our party remains virtually silent on the issue.

Dear Jon White
With reference to your comments above describing me as a 'moaner' and suggesting i get on my bike and look for work ii would make the following observation:
for the last year i have been getting on my bike and looking for work , frenetically. I have written thousands of letters and been rejected by what few jobs i have been able to get to. Due to this i have suffered from rather intense depression , verging on a breakdown and have had to spend weeks in bed at a time due to the impactof unemployment on my mental health.
I am not picking on Poles , as a catholic i would be unlikely to , but they are merely the largest block of eastern workers i have encountered.
So before you lapse into your moronic Tebbitisms please spare a thought for those of us who rather than being moaners have had our mental health seriously damaged by the experience of long term unemployment.
As the Conservative party is now meant to be compassionate i assume your not a member.

I wonder how willing MPs, of any party, would be to live and send their children to school in areas which have seen a massive growth in immigrant populations in recent years, where infrastructure is crumbling and hospitals creeking at the seams.
This is not a abstract problem.
I come back to the issue of how do we cope with the rate of growth of population in a sustainable fashion. While immigrants may bring economic growth, accomodating their social needs needs careful planning.
Why is the Government considering "emergency" measures?
Surely this simply reflects the imbalance in resources we currently have to cope and the lack of investment plans

David, I am immensely sympathetic to your plight. It adds a much-needed human dimension to the market fundamentalist dogma which says that you can expand the workforce infinitely and at top speed without affecting either the supply of jobs or what they pay. Apparently some of the purveyors of economic snake oil on this thread have discovered perpetual motion!

So far as Compassionate Conservatism a la mode de Cameron is concerned, I'm afraid that you lack "Official Victim" status in the eyes of the "modernisers". Your gender is wrong. If you are white, your skin pigmentation is also wrong and, worst of all, you are a Catholic. Aren't they all bigots, misogynists and homophobes?!

What i , and i suspect a lot of other British workers need is just a chance , in a workplace swamped with people willing to work on the worst wages imaginable, to get a foot on the ladder.
Thankfully i have recently managed to get the prospect of some employment bathing people with learning difficulties in the following months. I really want to work as a gardener and have two degreesbut bacause i can't get a foot on the ladder because of our esatern european friends i have had to go for any work i can possibly find just to try and find some way to earn money and to try and forestall a complete emotional meltdown. No doubt the bicycling Tebbites would have no sympathy for a suffering individual who has had to scrabble for whatever they can get at the messy end of economic liberalisation. The problem i find is that i and a lot of people like me have through unemployment , depression and seeing lots of jobs go to those from overseas become a lot more radicalized and nationalistic and want British jobs for Brits. I am constantly struggling to avoid racism or any foolish sort of prejudice but when a state discriminates against its own people in favour of aliens its hard to be bouyant. Still , being a Catholic i think helps me not to be racist. Mind you as you say people think we're homophobic , ( i'm not but obviously i can't speak for a billion others.) Or even worse , that we're not keen on the UK and want to get rid of Northern Ireland. Wierd eh!

Good luck, David. To say that being out of work is no fun at all is of course an understatement. And of course if you have paid your taxes it may come as a surprise to discover that this government which wastes billions is very liited in the support it will provide, especially if you have assets. And there is the rub; many people on relatively low incomes who pay their taxes would in some respects be better off without the welfare state which taxes them and then denies them worthwhile economic support when out of work. I could also include he dubious quality of some state education.

Its not about welcoming immigrants or not, I speak a little of about six different languages BECAUSE I enjoy communicating with people who speak different languages. But it is a question of numbers.

How about this, posters are saying that 340,000 people left the UK to start a new life somewhere else (mind you I haven't seen a statistic yet for the number of people who become disillusioned when the sun doesn't always shine in their adopted shangri-la and the locals, whose language they don't speak, are not quite as nice to live with as they had thought), decide to RETURN to UK!! If we persue this theory that emigration of the indigineous people more or less balances out immigration, it does nothing to solve the problem that some of us are trying to warn of, because the immigrants who come here, come for a reasson, not just for a job, but for a better way of life, which they had learned about from films or friends. And this way of life is not based on a hotch potch of dozens of different nationalities living in national groups (even if those groups were all totally happy and in harmony!), what immigrants are attracted to (apart form the hand-outs on the part of some) is the way of life of the indigenous population which has existed for hundreds of years, yes it has included immigrants joining it, but at a fraction of the level of todays influx, so by and large they have managed to find a place for themselves WITHIN the community of the indigenous population. If too many English people leave, English culture will become blurred and lost. In fact under this clever government this has already started to happen, in schools etc:, and in certain areas at Christmas time....

Perhaps we are already too late!

Great

In the USA a great deal of work has been done on the economic effects of immigration. It is estimated by the National Academy of SCiences that current immigration enlarges the US econmomy by 0.10% per annum but causes a redistribution of about 2% of GDP from the poorest Americans to capital and users of immigrant services.This does not take account of either the fiscal costs of immigration or the effects of capital dilution.
Every british worker is backed by about £141,000 of accumulated wealth. An immigrant arriving without capital therefore causes a dilution in capital intensity . In other words to live at the same standard as a British worker he must instantly be provided with 141,000 of capital. If he is not you have the process of crowding-in,whereby existing wealth has to be spread over a futher number of workers that is crowded roads,airports,houses etc.
Frankly it is hard to see how any but the most highly skilled immigrants could possibly increase the wealth of native British workers.By that i AM TALKING OF EARNINGS OF £50,000 PLUS PER ANNUM

If too many English people leave, English culture will become blurred and lost.
Hollywood, Global Pop Music and other International Mass Media really has already done this and is a far bigger threat to the traditional cultures of ethnic groups around the world than any amount of movement about the world by peoples. The local cultures that there were in England, Scotland and Wales are largely going, Mass Media has been even more damaging to the prevalence of Gaelic Speaking in the Highlands than even the deliberate attempts to stamp it out that there were in the 18th, 19th and even into the early 20th centuries.

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