Damian Green begins immigration roadshow

"The Conservatives will next week ditch hardline policies on immigration that were widely seen to have backfired at the last election.  As they attempt to create a more “civilised” approach, David Cameron’s party will consult ethnic minority groups in big cities and begin to extol the benefits of migration, The Times has learnt."

The Daily Mail has quite a different headline for the same story: "Britain 'suffering' because of immigration, say Tories."

Reading through both articles, however, the facts about the Tory approach appear consistent:

• Damian Green is to begin a six month consultation on immigration policy - beginning with a visit to Muslim leaders in Coventry on Monday.
• A series of 'green papers' will provide a "fair and detailed" account of the immigration situation in Britain.  It will highlight the positive impact of many immigrants but also  the negative effects of failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants on Britain's housing demand and pressurised public services.  The papers will invite specialist statisticians to analyse all of the data sources on the number of legal and illegal migrants.
• There will be a promise of tighter border controls and the possibility of a new, dedicated border police service - to bring together police, customs and immigration services.
• A crackdown on bogus language colleges and students who overstay their permits.
• "A more rigorous points system to let in migrants with the right skills."
• "Controversial" policies including quotas for immigrants and asylum seekers, processing immigrants on a foreign island and withdrawal from the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees are likely to be scrapped.

Damian Green - widely seen as on the left of the Tory party - was appointed shadow immigration minister by David Cameron to deliver a more moderate tone than had characterised Michael Howard's 2005 campaign.  Shortly after becoming leader Mr Cameron told The Observer that genuine asylum seekers should be taken "to our hearts", fed, clothed and schooled.

Earlier this week ConservativeHome had worried about the reluctance of the party of engage with the public on immigration.  This roadshow deserves to be welcomed.

Comments

[Sally Roberts]

This is going to be interesting! Damian and his colleagues MUST find a way of tackling the problem of radical Islam. It is going to be difficult but he needs to engage with a great many moderate Muslims as well as people of other faiths.

[John Coles]

Now tell me, does dear Damian live in a high ethnic minority area? Sparkford? An inner city? Or might it be a quiet, leafy suburb somewhere in the home counties?

[UKIP Fiend]

Those on the right of the party (and those that have fallen off and joined UKIP) will demand extreme right wing policies to tackle asylum and immigration problems - we have tried this numerous times - it doesnt work - we need a firm but fair and workable policy on asylum and immigration - those that demand policy now - we are not the Government - we still have perhaps 4 years to the General Election - why publish our manifesto now - when past history shows Labour will just steal our policies and sell them as their own!!!

[Chris]

Now tell me, does dear Damian live in a high ethnic minority area? Sparkford? An inner city? Or might it be a quiet, leafy suburb somewhere in the home counties?
I live in a leafy suburb in Hertfordshire, but 500m away there is a council estate, populated almost solely by ethnic minorities. Then there is the the area to one side of my school, which is renowned for being the "bangladeshi area". The home counties do have high levels of ethnic minorities in these day, its a complete myth that they are the District 6 of the UK. Luton in Bedfordshire is another prime example, where the majority of the town is from eastern europe or asia.

Personally I welcome this announcement, providing we have a sound policy come out of it. Immigration is one of the areas where the only change we need is presentation, as opposed to an actual real policy shift. In 2005 it was all too easy to paint us as the racist party, and it wasn't helped by the "Its not racist to impose limits of immigration" campaign, where we effectively handed Labour ammunition.

[Chris]

we still have perhaps 4 years to the General Election - why publish our manifesto now - when past history shows Labour will just steal our policies and sell them as their own!!!
Quite right! The worst thing of all though is that Blair will first steal our policies, then implement them after a dash of socialism here and a dash of headline grabbing there, until we end up with meaningless/unworkable/unpopular legislation, which he'll then say the Tories invented!

[Denis Cooper]

"Damian Green is to begin a six month consultation on immigration policy - beginning with a visit to Muslim leaders in Coventry on Monday."

That's right, start off by consulting the hypothetical leaders of the most important 3 percent of the population, while continuing to ignore completely the views of the overwhelming majority who have to hold the country together, who have to bear the costs of mass immigration and the resulting "multi-culturalism", and who have really had more than enough of both. Well done, Mr Green.

[Chris Palmer]

How was controlling immigration 'hardline'? The previous election defeat was not a case of policy errors (independent polling proves that Conservative policies are far more popular) but a case of a damaged brand and many believing Tony Blair to be a better candidate than Michael Howard as Prime Minister.

[Chad]

Of course it wasn't hardline Chris, as John Hustings neatly pointed out, it was just too narrow, too focussed on one issue. It doesn't matter what the issue is, if your focus is too narrow, whether immigration or equally the environment, you will not be attractive to the country as a whole.

Hence, why 'single issue' ukip or the EnglishDemocrats have never really hit the radar. It applies to all parties even the big 3.

The answer is simply balance, and I can't help but feel that instead of restoring balance, Cameron is heading for imbalance in a different direction.

The change of image has been vital, and balance was briefly in place, but now the scales seem tipped in the other direction.

However, it is far from impossible to recover though, whether that be Cameron or possibly his future successor.

[Jack Stone]

I thought this was trying to formulate a policy on immigration not race.
Its irelevant what
a person`s race is. The thing that needs to be decided is who is allowed to settle here and how do we prevent illegal immigration.
All this talk about islam and bangladeshi areas is I am afraid nothing more than evil racism.

[David Belchamber]

As I have suggested elsewhere, the very word "immigrant" now has a highly emotive charge to it and we could do well to identify quite separate issues by finding different words for "welcome" immigrants ("guest workers" etc), those of as yet unknown status (e.g. "asylum seekers") and totally "unwelcome" incomers ("foreign criminals", "benefit scroungers" etc).
I defy anyone - however left-leaning - to support the continuing presence in this country of the last category, whilst the first two deserve a sympathetic hearing and welcome.
Many will remember the emotive issue of "unilateral disarmament" - until Maggie threw a welcome cold douche on the subject by renaming it "one-sided disarmament".
Whatever name the issue is called, it is a legitimate concern for many and has to be addressed - as dispassionately as possible - by mainstream parties.
We also must put back more stringent border controls, so that we do have much better idea of how many people there are in the country at any one time.

[Aaron P]

Tighter border controls. Crackdown on bogus language colleges. Points system.

How does that differ from Labour policy right now?

And, as Jack says, if we're formulating an immigration policy, why focus on talking to ethnic minority groups? 'Minority' does not necessarily equal 'immigrant' - this is all about trying to avoid 'appearing' racist, while making just the kind of assumption that would make us racist! Why oh why can we not actually do something because we believe in it, rather than just chase after appearances.

[Chris]

I thought this was trying to formulate a policy on immigration not race.
Its irelevant what
a person`s race is. The thing that needs to be decided is who is allowed to settle here and how do we prevent illegal immigration.
All this talk about islam and bangladeshi areas is I am afraid nothing more than evil racism.
Jack, you can deny it if you wish, but many British towns are now virtually segregated. Many immigrants through their own will move into areas populated largely by immigrants from the same background. Integration into the British way of life just isn't happening, even with third or fourth generation immigrants. In schools you'll find that the cliques formed can be based around race, its an awful state to be in, but it won't be solved by denying it. Integration into the British way of life is not directly linked to immigration, but its something that needs to be encouraged.

As for calling me a racist, I'm offended. Stating the truth about how segregated communities have become is not racist. I'm friends with a number of people from other ethnic backgrounds, and they too would be hurt to hear you hurl insults around like this.

[The Daily Pundit]

"This roadshow deserves to be welcomed." Spot on editor. I wouldn't care if ten million genuine asylum seekers needed refuge here. They deserve to be welcomed. But I resent the one million illegals that have come here to take advantage of soft touch Britain under New Labour.

[malcolm]

Jack,where is the 'evil racism on this thread?It isn't there and you know it.I'm probably going to get into trouble with the editor for saying this but I think you're either a liar Jack or incredibly stupid.

[arthur]

One of the reasons why the 'heat' has gone out of the immigration issue to some extent, is that there are those on the 'economic right' that have seen its advantages. The free movement of labour, is a vital part of any free market economy.

The once feared trade unions have been tamed by a mixture of laws/debt/cheap labour. The Conservative party is now in a peculiar situation, many of its activists/supporters are opposed to immigration, and don't lets go kidding ourselves that racism isn't one of the reasons, not exclusively that but its one. On the other hand the Conservative Party has strong links with the business community and they see an inexhaustable supply of undemanding un/semi skilled labour, what they've always wanted.

The Labour party too has a problem, see todays Guardian, good piece on the Dagenham situation (BNP). Many of their natural supporters feel abandoned by the party they have looked upon as protecting their interests.

[Denis Cooper]

"Damian Green, the Tory immigration spokesman, told The Times that the tone during the election campaign “was perceived by many people as harsh”. He will meet Muslims in Coventry on Monday in the first of a series of consultations towards a new policy, which he said must have the consent of ethnic minorities."

Can anybody please explain:

a) Why Damian Green believes that ethnic minorities, in total perhaps 8 percent of the population, should be given a veto over immigration policy?

b) How he will know that an ethnic minority has graciously given its consent to a policy? What test will he apply?

c) Will it need ALL ethnic minorities to agree to a policy, or will it be sufficient if a (perhaps qualified) majority of minorities give it their seal of approval?

d) Whether the rest of us will even have a say, let alone a veto?

[DavidB]

Damian Green is MP for Ashford in Kent. Or rather, he is MP for the rural villages around Ashford that account for two thirds of his constituents. Places such as Charing and Tenterden - famous for its vineyard, wide tree lined High Street, steam railway and 3rd highest house prices in Kent. The Ashford area was rated the #3 best place to live in Britain by Channel 4, based on various figures. Ashford itself has many problems, but the leafy area around it lifted it to the top of their rankings.

I don't think his electorate - or any - will favour a soft policy. The last general election was too narrowly focussed, had the wrong tone, and the party had the wrong image. As that Newsnight poll proved, the public supported the policies by a large margin, but not when labelled Conservative. Change the tone, but keep with the policy. In my area, Kent, the swing seats are places like Dover, Sittingbourne, Medway, Dartford...we need policies for 'strivers' to win these, not policies for fancy dinner parties. Part of me is cynical though, did the quoata system not get stolen at the election and set to be introduced by Labour anyway?

My school is in Green's constituency, and I have met him. He gave us a talk, answered questions. I wasn't impressed I'm affraid. Nice enough chap, but didn't jump off the page. Talked too cosyly about Europe, as if it was all perfect and we should do more. He had more in common with the fanatical socialists than us conservatives/liberals. I also understand he'd never heard of the steam railway in Tenterden - his seat - after several years as MP. It's quite hard to miss really.

[DavidB]

Damian Green is MP for Ashford in Kent. Or rather, he is MP for the rural villages around Ashford that account for two thirds of his constituents. Places such as Charing and Tenterden - famous for its vineyard, wide tree lined High Street, steam railway and 3rd highest house prices in Kent. The Ashford area was rated the #3 best place to live in Britain by Channel 4, based on various figures. Ashford itself has many problems, but the leafy area around it lifted it to the top of their rankings.

I don't think his electorate - or any - will favour a soft policy. The last general election was too narrowly focussed, had the wrong tone, and the party had the wrong image. As that Newsnight poll proved, the public supported the policies by a large margin, but not when labelled Conservative. Change the tone, but keep with the policy. In my area, Kent, the swing seats are places like Dover, Sittingbourne, Medway, Dartford...we need policies for 'strivers' to win these, not policies for fancy dinner parties. Part of me is cynical though, did the quoata system not get stolen at the election and set to be introduced by Labour anyway?

My school is in Green's constituency, and I have met him. He gave us a talk, answered questions. I wasn't impressed I'm affraid. Nice enough chap, but didn't jump off the page. Talked too cosyly about Europe, as if it was all perfect and we should do more. He had more in common with the fanatical socialists than us conservatives/liberals. I also understand he'd never heard of the steam railway in Tenterden - his seat - after several years as MP. It's quite hard to miss really.

[Derek]

It is the huge numbers coming here which is causing the problems. You cannot go on adding millions more to the population without creating massive problems which will require big changes to transport, schools, hospitals etc. Our whole way of life is under threat and we appear to be about to soften our attitude.

There is no consensus among the population for continued mass immigration and the party that recognises that and offers credible solutions will gain a lot of votes. However it's no good keeping quiet about it for four years and then hoping to launch a policy a few weeks before the next election. We need to ally ourselves with the excellent Migration Watch group and campaign for lower immigration starting now.

Finally, it is important to note that we cannot control immigration while we are still members of the EU.

[Jon Gale]

"I wouldn't care if ten million genuine asylum seekers needed refuge here. They deserve to be welcomed."

Well I'd care. 10 million??!!

The problem isn't illegal immigrants, it is the total number of all immigrants (inc. asylum seekers). We now have millions of people in this country with a non-british culture, and no sign of them becoming British - why should they when they can stay in their self-contained "Arab/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Indian Quarter" of our towns and cities?

Ok, we let asylum seekers in. Fine. But there is no certainty that their children will be moderate or consider themselves british. The parents of the 7/7 bombers were not extremists.

[Sally Roberts]

Exactly Jon and that's why I made my original point that dialogue is needed with the Muslim community at an early stage (which Damian is doing). We have got to face the fact that there are people in this country who are disaffected. They have to be re-engaged so that they feel some sort of loyalty to Britain and our way of life here.

[DavidB]

We need dialogue with minority communities to ensure the presentation and tone isn't offensively racist, or spun as such by the BBC and others. If they do we can at least then say "well the Muslim Council thought it was alright". The roadshow should be warmly welcomed in the presentation sense, and in reaching out to non-traditional voters. I think defining the different types of immigrant is the vital element.

Asylum Seeker: A person who's claimed they are a refugee and await determination.

Economic Migrant: Someone who leaves their country of origin to improve their life.

Refugee: "A person outside their country, has a well-founded fear of persecution, and is unable or unwilling to avail the protection of that country, or to return there, for fear of persecution."

Refugees should be treat via the UN 1951 Convention. Suggesting leaving it was bad PR. But this means those travelling across safe countries must return to the first one for refuge, and thus not be given it in the UK. We must accept those that come here first - providing they are genuine, and possibly on "leave to stay until safe" basis that would allow us to help more in the long run. We should take preventative measures working with the UN like safety camps, tackling issues like Darfur etc, as we can help many more this way. It would be best if they had to apply before entering the UK, in order to stop the human trafficing that's enslaving thousands and is very unfair (only the wealthy can pay, funds crime etc). Failed asylum seekers should of course be deported, and they should be monitorred closely whilst awaiting their decision to stop people running away to hide.

Economic migrants from the EU fill demands enough at the moment, and we do not need more really right now. EU migrants are filling vital gaps and integrating well; there's a lovely cafe sandwich bar place near me that some Eastern Europeans have opened. A skills points based system like Australia or USA would be fairest, or maybe a review after 2 years?

The main problem is the Melting Pot Vs Multicultural argument. If we are to halt extremism we have got to tackle the isolation and lack of identity many second generation immigrants feel, as well as many Brits too, and this means creating a shared national identity "melting pot". This does not mean some inheritted culture cannot stay, look at the Jewish traditions that have lived alongside for centuries, with most Jewish people proud Brits and Jewish. The typical BBC and liberal rubbish of "which identity most" is very unhelpful and nonesense - one's a nationality and the other a religion. It's like saying are you more Conservative or more British. Total multi-culturalism without melting pot will only breed hatred, extremism and isolation.

The worry is that integration will kick start extremism too, as occured in many countries when populations mixed widely. Whatever we do must be careful, slow and controlled.

[Sean Fear]

Arthur, some businesses may well welcome mass immigration of unskilled workers as a way of holding down wages.

But there are very good reasons for the Conservatives to oppose such a policy;-

a) it comes at the expense of taxpayers. They are the ones who have to pay for the social services used by unskilled immigrants and their families. Poorly paid workers are most unlikely to be net contributors to the public purse.

b) Unskilled work is precarious. What happens when the work dries up? Your left with an embittered population, with high levels of unemployment - rather like much of the Asian population in Northern cities, who were encouraged to come here to work in a failing textile industry.

c) mass immigration for the purpose of holding down wages is likely to generate considerable social disorder and political extremism.

d) the creation of a big underclass of poorly paid native and foreign workers means that you create a big constituency with a vested interest in voting for left wing parties.

[Denis Cooper]

Sally,

There is no such thing as "the Muslim community".

I watched Jon Snow interviewing Sir Ian Blair on Channel 4 News last night. In his questions Snow kept referring to "the Muslim community", but in his replies Blair invariably referred to "the Muslim communities".

So maybe it's dawning, at least with the police who are at the sharp end, that some groups of Muslims hate other groups of Muslims almost as much as they hate the rest of us, and that "the Muslim community" is just as much a figment as "the black'n'asian community" of a few years ago.

The "benefits" of immigration have been proved to be fictitious, see:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/faqs.asp

and even academics admit that "multi-culturalism" is a disaster, see:

"Multiculturalism is dead, say academics"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=394566&in_page_id=1770

but now the Tory leadership is chickening out of the debate.

I guess there's too much of a risk that in a few years they might have to translate words into action, which would alienate donors who profit from cheap labour, from demand for new homes, from building the additional infrastructure, etc

[Andrew Kennedy]

Mr Elsby - you are a bore. Not my words - but those of former Stoke Labour leader Mike Salih who proposed you to the Management Committee of the Abbey Hulton Community Association. Apparently he thinks that the Conservative Party would do Socialism a service if we offered you a position. I graciously declined his suggestion.

Now look, I know life in Abbey Hulton must be tough, and I also know that UpMyStreet describes your neighbourhood (ST2 7AR) as "blue collar community with below average educational achievements, where watching TV and occasional Bingo are the main forms of leisure activity." But do you really have to spend so much time making a nusiance of yourself on Conservative blog sites.

Now run along and do something useful.

[Sally Roberts]

Yes, you are quite right Denis - that was careless of me. I know that they are riven with divisions. Unfortunately, the most fanatical of them are united in a hatred for the West - particularly America and therefore Britain whom they see as America's "poodle". Engagement has to take place with the moderate of ALL Islamic communities to find common ground in dealing with the militants.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

" We have got to face the fact that there are people in this country who are disaffected. They have to be re-engaged so that they feel some sort of loyalty to Britain and our way of life here".

Posted by: Sally Roberts | July 08, 2006 at 13:20

Perfectly correct, Sally. But the people disaffected and look like remaining disaffected are the original, aboriginal indigenous people that used to vote Conservative - they desperately need to be re-engaged.
As usual, anyone not subscribing to the Left views on immigration is guilty of evil racismn usually against Islam, despite the fact that Islam is not a race. What we are really guilty of is cultureralism. We are tolerant, but prefer our own culture and believe that large numbers of immigrants, apart from placing great strains upon sections of society, re housing, education, health and pensions etc., will be at our expense and will one day undermine our own culture. I do not know how old you are, Mr Stone, but you will probably see that day arrive if concerns about immigration are not properly addressed. That day will probably arrive anyway.
In the meantime, Mr Editor, some of the comments are doing my head in, so in the interests of my health and sanity I will, reluctantly, be bidding farewell to your interesting, but vexing blog to some of the self flagellators and and masochists that adorn it. Damien Green was the last straw (did n't they have a thing about the name "Damien" in Only Fools and Horses?)
Good luck, everybody!
PS It is to be hoped that Cameron does not believe for one moment the tosh that he is coming out with.

[Jack Stone]

I am afraid Malcom you should read the threads more throughly and you will see there is an undercurrent of racism there.
Immigration is about who is allowed into the country, nothing to do about muslim`s and there communities but people on this theard go on as much about muslim`s as they do about how best it is to stop immigration.
People mention muslims but many immigrants come in from Africa and the percentage of christian`s is probably higher amongst them than our own country.
Lets have a discussion about immigration by all means but don`t let that be used to make points about the racial make-up of our country because that is simply a totally differant issue.

[Andrew Kennedy]

I think most reasonable people accept (a) the UK has a moral obligation to accept our fair share of genuine asylum applicants, and (b) the need for controlled economic migration.

What leads to anger and resentment is the continual abuse of the system.

I am employed as a manager with one of the worlds largest Market Research companies. My area includes South London. Although I am not directly involved with recruitment, I do see various recruitment statistical reports. In the last 3 months we have processed 30+ applications from either Ghanaian or Nigerian migrants who are in the UK on a "Highly Skilled Working Visa". It is valid to ask why they are now seeking employment as Market Research Interviewers if they are "highly skilled". It is also valid to ask why they are allowed leave to remain in the UK if they are clearly not fulfilling the requirements of their entry visa.

Another area of concern is the abuse of the "Student Visa". I have recently written to Joan Ryan, Home Office Minister responsible for Immigration, with details of another scam I have recently uncovered. A summary of that letter can be found on my blog:

http://andrew-kennedy.blogspot.com/2006/07/dear-joan-ryan.html

The Conservative Party must not be afraid to continue to speak out on asylum and immigration issues. To do so would result in another key area of political debate being handed over to the BNP and a further weakening in our core vote. However, it is also fair to say that the "dog whistle" messages of 2005 did sound shrill.

I wish Damien Green well in his road show. I just hope that in our desire to be "new and inclusive" we don't overlook the genuine concerns of the sometimes forgotten majority.

[Eleanor Justice]

the immigration problem has slid down the agenda because the forgotten majority are frightened to speak out,because they will be accused of racism exactly what new labour wants

[Chris Palmer]

As has been said above and on this website before, the problem with immigration currently is that levels are now so high that it is becoming very noticeable, even in areas like my own. About 2 to 2 1/2 years ago, it was uncommon to hear a foreign voice or even accent - these days my area is developing a significantly large Polish and Eastern European population. Fine in itself, most seem to be hard workers (compared with immigrants from other parts of the world) but the increase has been extremely rapid as this Labour Government has begun to move new entrants further from the major cities.

People intrinsically do not like change. It is part of our human nature that has evolved over 1000's of years. If change is slow and carefully managed (in line with conservative tradition) then people are less likely to notice or protest. It is only now, because this Labour Government (and previous Governments) have encouraged diversity rather than integration to such an extent that we now have communities within communities, completely unwilling to take on the customs of this country. It can never be healthy to have, in many cases, such extremes of thought and culture trying to co-exist (and sometimes failing) beside one another.

[TomTom]

but many immigrants come in from Africa and the percentage of christian`s is probably higher amongst them than our own country.

Prove that assertion Jack Stone before you start on your anti-Christian trip

[arthur]

First of all the name Damien in 'Only Fools and Horses'. This was a running gag, in that Rodney believed that Delboy's son was the 'Omen'the son of the devil, who in the film was called 'Damien'. Mr Green may be many things but the son of the 'Lord of Flies' I don't think so.

There seems to be this strange belief held by Conservatives in particular, that immigration into this country was a product of the 'Left'. In fact both parties since the end of the second world war have accepted immigrants into this country, the numbers have risen and fallen under both parties. It was Edward Heath that honoured our obligation to the 'Ugandan Asians' it was the previous Labour government that did everything to prevent them coming here. But this sort of nit-picking wont get anyone anywhere.

As for the fact that they maybe tempted to vote for 'leftwing' parties well that must include the Tory party these days! As for many of the East European economic migrants, I'm sure that anything 'left' may not be their first choice. If its due to our mebership of the EU, well I hate to point this out, but wasn't it the same good 'ol Ted' who took the UK into that.

[Chris Palmer]

Well, I hate to point it out Arthur, with a small a (and a small brain?) but Ted Heath did no such thing. He let Britain join the ECC, NOT the EU - which evolved out of the ECC. Something completely different.

[arthur]

Chris

herewith statement made to the House of Commons 10 June 1971, by E Heath to be found in his auto-biography (paperback)
page 375 chapter entitled 'Fanfare for Europe' I'll quote you the actual statement, read the whole chapter to place it into context.

We have said that as members of the 'enlarged' Community we would play our full part in the progress towards economic and monetary union. Thar was confirmed in my talk with President Pompidou and in my statement to the House...But let me make it clear that we have given no undertakings as to how fast or by what means these developments could or should be brought about. These would be matters for discussion after our entry, when we should be a full member of the Community with all the rights of a member.

Geoffrey Rippon, the Minister for Europe mad the following statement on the 6th of June. 'the British Government were prepared to envisage an orderly and gradual run-down of official sterling balances after our acession' adding We shall be ready to discuss after our entry to the Communities what measures might be appropriate....in relation to sterling with those of other currencies in the Community in the progress towards economic and monetary union in the enlarged Community'.

I think you'll agree Chris that the principle of the EU was already agreed on our entry, the only thing not decided was the timescale. I should also point out that no Cabinet member including Mrs T raised any objection.

[arthur]

Oh one other thing Chris I don't do abuse, think its childish. I'm also very good at typing 60 wpm plus.

[James Maskell]

I know Damian Green spoke about immigration in early March when the Government decided a points-based system was the one to use. If I recall he did indicate a softening in the position back then. I suspect that this change in stance has been around longer than many actually know.

Have a look at Hansard on 21st March 2006. Damian Green takes on the immigration issue in a debate. Its a bit sad to see him trying to push the government on something when the policy platform on immigration at that time was bare bones and basically non-existant. He tried hard though with what principles were in place.

[Jack Stone]

You are an idiot Tom Tom. I was trying to make the point that people are trying to give the impression that the only immigrants entering the country are muslims and of course there not.
Personally I think its totally irelevant what a person`s religion is but it seems that for a lot on this site it is not.

[Account Deleted]

Note that when the Government announced that foreign health workers were no longer to be stolen (from desperately poor countries) that OUR spokesman condemned this as a bad thing... I think that the tide is running strongly within the higher echelons of the party in favour of those who believe in the relatively free movement of labour.

The core of this issue is not whether we have a points system, but whether we have a quota system to back this up.

Otherwise we could have such a loose points system that almost anyone is allowed in, under the guise of 'toughening up'.

Personally this is what I think that the Cameron camp are going to go for.

[arthur]

agree 1am see my post 12:18

Oh chris arthur with small a, small brain here. Anychance of an apology re EU only off to watch Dr WHO. Don't send me off thinking the 'Nasty Party' hasn't changed!!

[James Maskell]

Damian Green was indicating the Party liked quotas...

BURNHAM: Picking up on what he has been saying, I understand that he is still in favour of a quota. Will he make it clear whether that is the case?

Damian Green: I am in favour of a controlled immigration system. Is the Minister in favour of uncontrolled numbers? Is it still the case that he can see "no obvious upper limit" to legal immigration? Will the Minister answer those questions?

Further on...

"Clearly, the brain drain from poorer countries to keep our public services going is a huge issue, which we need to address".

Points based quota system looks very much on the cards. The debate is well worth a look at on the following link...about 3/4s down "Managed Migration".

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/cm060321/debindx/60321-x.htm

[Chris Palmer]

I don't actually see your point Arthur. At the time Heath and other Conservative ministers believed the ECC to be an economic only institution. The passage you quote only proves that point.

Clearly, as the years roled on (hindsight) that became increasingly and obviously wrong. I doubt whether Heath knew, for example, of Jean Monet's (and other's) true intentions of 'ever closer union disguised as increasing economic prosperity.'

As for your previous post, at its heart, the Conservative party will never really change - as with the Labour party. For all Tony Blair's modernisation, Labour members are still the old socialists that they have always been. Nothing changed. It was all a facade to dupe the public.

If my comments make you believe that the Conservatives are the 'same old nasty party', then so be it.

[Arthur]

If you think Chris, that reading that proves your point that the EEC was only an economic union and Heath wasn't aware of the consequences of joining, then obviously your version of English is different to mine I suggest you take the time out to read his auto-biography.

Perhaps you would like to comment on this.

speech given by the then Leader of the opposition Margaret Thatcher. apr 16th 1975.

We must play our full part in ensuring that Conservative supporters say "Yes to Europe"

In particular there is a duty on Conservative members of Parliament who believe in and voted for Britain's continuing membership of the Community to play a leading role in their own constiuencies during the campaign.

Members must give a lead to both by their words and by their example.

I note that a few left-wing politicians have been talking as if this campaign is about whether we should JOIN the European Community.

It is not. We have been members for two and a half years.

It is a question of whether we should leave

But for Britain to leave would mean denouncing a Treaty.

Britain does not break Treaties

It would be bad for Britain, bad for our relations with the rest of the world and bad for any future treaty on trade we need to make.

As Harold Macmillan said recently: "We used to stand for good faith. That is the greatest strength of our commerce overseas. And we are now being asked to tear up a Treaty into which we solemnly entered".

Then further on there's this bit.

For hundreds of years the people of Britain have been writing history. Do we want future generations to continue to write history or are they simply going to read it.

If we fail they will read how we broke faith with both the present and the past.

If we fail and the british people vote 'NO to the European Community, they will read how there was a defeat for co-operation between nations and how there was a victory for the tribunes of the Left.

and so on

The full speech is in the Margaret Thatcher Foundation.

You'll notice how those dreadful left wingers keep cropping up, trying to wreck your wonderful Tory vision of a United Europe.

Funny Tony Benn who I'm not a supporter of, got it 'bang on'. Unlike yourself I'm interested in REALITY I'm not interested in the world seen through the eyes of a party hack Conservative/Labour/Libdem.

I've got to go out now, I think you should read up on that period 1970/75, your very weak on your political history.

ps gots lots of this sort of stuff!!!!!

[Chris Palmer]

Again, the text you quote does nothing to actually help your argument.

As I said before, as time went by, Europe changed from seemingly a solely defensive based/economically based union to something totally different. Of course, Mrs Thatcher did in the end realise that, but by then, it was too late and her time was almost up.

Again, I do not see that your point is relevant.

[Jon Gale]

Arthur,

Your Heath quote does say "We have said that as members of the 'enlarged' Community we would play our full part in the progress towards economic and monetary union." "in the progress towards economic and monetary union in the enlarged Community'." not political union, just a single currency.

Which rather proves Chris Plamers point about believing it to be an econmic union. The Thatcher quote is about honoring treaties and tells us nothing else about her views on political union.

[Arthur]

Hi Chris, put the capital A in thought it might please you.

The problem you've got when dealing with any political activist/supporter is their ability for denial. Best summed up in the following joke.

Once upon a time, there was this man who loved his wife, really really loved her.

Then his best friend told him she was having an affair, wouldn't believe it. But he was persuaded to hire a private detective.

After a week the detective came back with his report. 'On Wednesday, you wife met a man, went for a meal, lots of wine, billing and cooing. Then they went off to a Motel and booked into a room. 'I went outside and waited for the light to go on'. 'Then I looked through the window, they took all their clothes off and lay on the bed.'
The man looked crestfallen,'What happened then he asked' The detective replied,'Don't know they switched off the light,' The man brightened, 'Oh dear,' he said 'Shame so there's still that element of doubt'.

Because you Love the Tory party, really, really love it, you will aways twist reality, to let it off. Labour people do it, you all do it.

So this is pointless what ever evidence I produce, you will always reject.

You can have a preference for a Political party, but you must never allow 'love' because you will lose judgement.

Sorry Chris your a hopleless case, the lovelorn always are.

Now I really have to go.

Now I really have to go,

[TomTom]

You are an idiot Tom Tom.

There is only one idiot on this site Jack Stone and if you read this you will know who it is:

Le monde est plein de fous, et qui n'en veut pas voir
Doit se tenir tout seul, et casser son miroir,

[Editor]

The next person to abuse another person will be banned from using this site... Let's deal with each others' arguments or ignore them... Play the ball, not the man.

[RodS]

As part of 'playing the ball and not the man' can anyone define the term 'racist' which gets bandied about with such abandon. Is it someone who beats up pakistani's down a dark ally ? Is it someone who believes that different ethnic groups have different characteristics and agenda's ? Is it someone who wonders how many of our exploding(sometimes literally) population will be rooting for Britain in the 2012 Olympics ? Is it the BBC that routinely makes sure that any background film to a news report has far more ethnic faces than statistically justified ? Or is it someone like me who was born and bred in urban Leeds and wonders how it became an Islamic Traing Camp ?

The word 'racist' is now meaningless !!

What matters is numbers We are dreadfully overpopulated and the numbers are driven by immigration.

[David Belchamber]

Good quote, TomTom @ 22.26. Where does it come from? Perhaps this definition of fanaticism might be also be apropos to this thread: "Le fanatisme consiste a redoubler ses efforts quand on a oublie ses buts". Sorry no accents!

[TomTom]

Thomas Love Peacock, "Crochet Castle" 1831

[David Belchamber]

Thank you, TomTom.