Cameron: Coal mining closures still hurt Tories in north

Today's Yorkshire Post reports that David Cameron believes that Tory fortunes in the north are still blighted by "difficult decisions that had to be taken... in the 1980s" - particularly with regard to the mining industry.  Speaking to a lunch of regional political editors the Tory leader admitted that the party had still got a lot more to do to win back northern seats.  "These things take time," he said.

He argued that his top shadow cabinet team is very northern-focused:

"I wake up every morning and have a meeting in my office with two Yorkshire MPs, one on the left, one on the right – David Davis and William Hague. So there's a very good North-South balance in the Shadow Cabinet."

His shadow chancellor also represents a northern seat - Tatton, in the north west.  None of these seats are urban, however.  That is one of the reasons why the party leadership has appointed a whole series of 'shadow ministers for the cities'.

Twenty Conservative MPs are also embarking on a programme of 'immersion' in community projects serving inner city or other disadvantaged communities.  Iain Duncan Smith is spending this week in Bradford with a project working with excluded children.

Related links: The Tories' northern challenge and It's the north, stupid.

Comments

[kris F]

I think that this is a very astute observation. The way the Conservatives dealt with the pit closures have indeed deeply damaged our reputation. It ruined communities and caused a recession in the north and what made matters worse was the south prospered while the north suffered. Everyone in the north of England would have either been effected or knew someone who was. It made the conservatives appear cold hearted and uncaring. Is it any wonder why we are so unpopular still in the North. Recognising this is the first step to rebuilding our reputation. As a geologist i know that the closure of the Coal Mines was inevitable, that we could not compete on the world market with open cast mines, and pressure from America meant that subsidising our industry would not have been accepted even if we had wanted to (which we didn't), but we should have been seen to have done more to ease the problem by putting money into communities and by assisting people training into new work areas. This lack of support is the main problem. If we recognise this and show that we do care about the North, eventually this will change, but it won't happen overnight. I am pleased that David Cameron has recognised this issue and is prepared to deal with it.

[Richard]

"but we should have been seen to have done more to ease the problem by putting money into communities and by assisting people training into new work areas. This lack of support is the main problem. If we recognise this and show that we do care about the North, eventually this will change, but it won't happen overnight."

Public money is pouring into the North at the moment and their economic growth rate is still lower than the South East. It is not government spending but private investment that leads to long-term economic growth. By directing money into those areas it would mean taking money from other areas that was possibly being used more productively. The most effective way to help the North is to cut taxes and business regulations, thus allowing them to escape the trap of statism and welfarism.

[Jonathan Sheppard]

Its a point I make in my interview with Ken Clarke on Tory Radio. Having fought Bassetlaw I got - well it was your lot that closed the mines. It helped that in actualy fact my Grandpa ran the Miners Welfare in Chesterfield - but even so, memories are hard to erase.

Not only is there the issue of the Yorkshire coalfields feeling bitter - but those who didn't strike - under the UDM in the Notts coalfields feel in a way betrayed that under a Conservative Government many pits closed.

Agree with the comments about the need for Urban representation and for the party to have to understand these issues.

It comes back to definition of Northern - where in actual fact perhaps we should be looking more at Urban. Saying we have representation in Northern seats isn't really addressing a problem if those Northern seats are very leafy and well off.

[Sean Fear]

It's worth noting that in 1987 we outpolled Labour across the North, as a whole.

I don't doubt that there are areas where this issue still causes bitterness, but I don't see how we could have done otherwise. Scargill sought to overthrow an elected government, and he had to be tackled head on.

[TomTom]

Everyone in the north of England would have either been effected or knew someone who was

LOL - hardly. You make it sound like the whole of Northern England is a giant strip mine. Laughable. Mining was a small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire and much unloved by most people, but adored in its own districts where Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Kevin Barron etc hold seats...............but for most people in Northen England mining was about as relevant to them as farming

[YorkshireLad]

Or even suburban - the seats in Leeds we need to win back are effectively in, or partly cover, the suburbs of the city. The other 4 have always been safe Labour seats.

That said there are many seats up here we need to win which aren't "city seats" - eg. Keighley, Calder Valley, Colne Valley, Selby.

[Matt Wright]

Although certainly an issue I think people are over egging the impact of coal mine closures. I agree with some of those talking about some urban areas and if we have not had representation in those areas for a while then people don't know how to take us,

Matt

[YorkshireLad]

Agreed Matt - representation is the key. By the next election we'll have had a Conservative-led council in Leeds for a few years so hopefully people will start to realise that we are improving their quality of life.

[Editor]

I agree with Jonathan - I think it was the post miners' strike 'betrayal' of the UDM - at least its brutality - that was really shameful.

[Jonathan Mackie]

The whole north did not experience the mining closures. The mining communities themselves with such a narrow economic base and single primary labour market were always highly fragile from economic, technological, environmental shocks.

In fairness to Cameron what he is trying to say is that whilst the closure (or failure to prop up failing industries) of the mines could have been handled more subtly and as a consequence it has been easy to cite mine closures as examples of Tory hostility.

[Yet Another Anon]

His shadow chancellor also represents a northern seat - Tatton, in the north west.
There aren't any old coal mines in Tatton constituency, there were Independent ones in Poynton that closed long ago and there is a coal seam under Macclesfield but they are all well away from the mining areas in South Lancashire and in Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire, Staffordshire and many other areas - Kent of course used to have a fair amount of Coal Mining as well and of course the Welsh Valleys which are not in British terms in the north and of course there was coal mining in parts of Lincolnshire and in lowland Scotland.

[Jonathan Sheppard]

I think the opinion expressed about coal mining closures hurting the Tories in the north is accurate. In terms of demographics, however things are changing. And the view that it takes time is correct. I suspect that there are a great deal of ex miners who live in Worksop where I stood. In fact there were current Miners who work at the Wellbeck pit. A big issue in the last election was that of Miners compensation which I think really helped my opponent.

Now in years to come there will be people in Worksop and the surrounding areas who wont even know that there used to be a mining industry - but at the moment many people DO remember and rightly or wrongly - they dont particularly think it was our party's finest hour.

[Jonathan Sheppard]

Ooops - I cant even spell Welbeck. Must be the heat today in London!!

[Big John]

We must not hang our heads in guilt and shame, accepting the opprobrium for all the grief that happened in South Yorkshire at the time of the mine closures. When things go wrong. those who suffer look for a place to lay the blame. Close friendship with a circle of mining people shortly after the closures revealed to me that in the communities, it was Scargill who was held to be responsible. I was astonished.

[Jonathan Sheppard]

John - yes I wouldn't want to re-visit those decisions, and Scargills failure to hold a ballot was indeed a huge mistake. But to me, (and this isn't intended to sound trivial), it doesn't really matter who was right and wrong, its what do we intend doing about the perception which exists.

I belive there is a perception certainly in many urban areas - that voting Conservative is not the done thing. Indeed Ive had comments like "You're a traitor to your class". What Cameron I think - is highlighting is the fact that in many areas, it is going to be a long slog to win support back - and indeed in lots of areas people may NEVER had the opportunity to vote Conservative - or even seen a Conservative activists.

[Drew SW London]

If Tories really believe that "Mining was a small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire" they'll be waiting a good while longer for that first seat on Newcastle City Council, methinks.

[Andrew Woodman]

I found during the last election that in my seat of South Derbyshire, the ex miners were willing to listen to us (don't know if they voted for us of course). There is much new industry around the ex mine areas now, and the point needs making that if we didn't make the tough decisions of the 1980's, the new industry wouldn't exist. After all mining is a fairly awful job. My uncle had his life cut short from years in the mine and it's not a job I would wish on my offspring.

The point is we must get people in these Labour heartlands and challenge perceptions. To be taken seriously in doing this, we must be careful to put serious local candidates that people can relate to in gritty northern seats, and not southern lawyer types (no offence to southern lawyers) who are just there as paper candidates on a trial run.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

Well done on raising this issue.

A typical reaction I get when I tell people I'm a Conservative is "Thatcher shut down all the mines" (end of conversation).

Until we can put this perception behind us, we will struggle to win over hearts and minds beyond our hinterland, and this is where we are fortunate to have a leader who is seen as a 'new generation' Conservative.

[Robert McIlveen]

there was loads of research done in the late 80s and 90s pointing to the effect of regional economic factors - so even if you don't know people affected, through local media and society you do notice how well your part of the country is doing. The bitterness at the coal mines is more symbolic of the deeper split in economic fortune that happened in the 80s. We can hope ot repair that damage through policies desigend to boost private sector growth in deprived areas, rather than make platitudes about a homogenous "north".

[Paul Kennedy]

Of course the irony is that with rapidly rising oil and gas prices and declining energy security, our own, substantial, coal reserves are becoming economic and with the development of clean coal technology maybe a significantly greater contributor to our energy mix. Who knows it might be a Conservative Government that reinvigorates the British mining industry, with Bolsover electing a Conservative MP ! ;)(currently one D. Skinner AKA The Beast of Bolsover).

[Sally Roberts]

I think I just saw a Flying Pig going past....!! ;-)

[Paul Kennedy]

Sally, that must have been the one that flew into me, giving me concussion just prior to me typing the last section of my contribution to the topic. ;)

[Alfred of Wessex]

Ditto Coal and Steel in South Wales - I've still not forgiven Mrs T for turning Newport into an economic disaster area in the 1980s. As for the valleys, whole communities had the guts ripped out of them - and as far as I am aware they still haven't recovered.

People have very long memories when entire communities are affected.

[John Coles]

So that's all right, then. It's all Maggies' fault. Makes you wonder how on earth she managed 3 election victories. Well, let's not dwell on that, just keep on distancing the party from her and the bad old days. It'll go down well with Clarke, Heseltine and the dear old Beeb. Will it win seats in the North? - maybe not, but as long as we have made it clear how much we detest ourselves then that must do us some good. Won't it? Won't it?

[Denis Cooper]

It wasn't just coal, more generally it was a set of industries which had been built up because various mineral deposits and their products were available - coal, steel, shipbuilding, engineering, textiles, chemicals. And it wasn't just the north of England, it was more generally the north and the west of the UK, where those mineral deposits were mainly located. Plus fishing and hill farming, as well.

The correct approach may be to cut business taxes not everywhere in the UK, and not specifically in the north of England, or in Scotland, or in Wales, or in Northern Ireland, all of which might spark jealousies, but in targetted areas such as cities or boroughs where the per capita GDP is below the UK average.

There could be some kind of scale - eg, per capita GDP 30% or more below UK average, zero business taxes for a certain number of years; per capita GDP 15% - 30% below UK average, a two-thirds abatement; per capita GDP up to 15% below UK average, a one third abatement.

[Ted]

John C - problem is the rememberance of past wrongs seems to affect a wider population than it did at time. So Mrs T didn't lose many votes in heat of battle but as the romantic haze of history spreads (look at Billy Elliot the musical) the "wrongs" become folk legend.

It's also that loyalty doesn't get rewarded - Nottinghamshire suffered though it didn't strike, the Royal Dockyards were hit by job loses after working flat out in the Falklands - and the loss of the mines, steelworks and shipbuilding did destroy communities.

It's not hating yourself to recognise that necessary actions have downsides that need addressing.

[Disraeli]

"Mining was a small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire and much unloved by most people, but adored in its own districts where Ed Balls, Yvette Cooper, Kevin Barron etc hold seats..............."

That really is a staggeringly ignorant opinion to express and is a representation of one of the reasons why we aren't making good enough progress in the North. I imagine that my relatives in the North East of England would be surprised to find that they were employed in a "small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire". But what do they know?

[Disraeli]

Thankfully many of our frontbenchers, notably Caroline Spelman, have been mentioning the North in speeches and articles for many years now.

[Richard]

"I've still not forgiven Mrs T for turning Newport into an economic disaster area in the 1980s. As for the valleys, whole communities had the guts ripped out of them - and as far as I am aware they still haven't recovered."

What do you think she should have done that wouldn't have involved throwing money at the problem?

[Graeme Archer]

Is it just me, or is there a thunderingly obvious difference between debating whether or not the action against the NUM was the right thing to do, and whether or not it had (1) a negative impact on the communities involved and (2) had an adverse impact on those communities' (and others') perception of the Conservative Party? Actually this thread is wonderful for showing up the vision failure of the anti-change merchants who insist that all we have to do is scream more loudly about why a low-tax economy is for the utilitarian good. Whoever pointed out that Mrs T won three elections (thank the lord), may I ask exactly how this statement implies that there was no collatoral electoral damage in the process? Or are you implying that somehow the people whose immediate outcomes suffered as a result of the necessary medicine should (1) feel grateful, because in the long run more people prospered than failed and (2) simply give up thinking or feeling, because after all Mrs T won three elections?

The Soviet Union was A Bad Thing. Sadaam Hussein is A Bad Thing. Ought the people whose lives have been ruined post-Soviet Union, post-Sadaam, go around celebrating the demise of the Bad Things that gave their lives (spurious) meaning and stability? Or are we capable of seeing that they may not necessarily transfer their electoral affection to the agents of change?

[Annabel Herriott]

Small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire???? How ignorant! Have you not heard of the Durham and Northumberland coal fields? The Durham Miners Gala? that great old lab class feast?? my uncle was a pit manager in Ashington, and my dad was an analyst covering both coalfields, but they both hated it when it all got nationalised. I was too young to know why at the time.And they were both Tories!

[Ted]

Modern education is to blame Graeme & Annabel, no-one seems to remember that its within many peoples lifetimes when coal was the biggest employer - what about the Forest of Dean & Somerset coalfields, Kent coalfields? let alone the Welsh & Scots ones Just a small industry in Yorkshire indeed.

[Richard]

"Or are we capable of seeing that they may not necessarily transfer their electoral affection to the agents of change?"

But how do we win them over without lying to them? Can we persuade them to forget about the 1980s and agree to disagree? If not then we're going to be stuck in an impasse.

[Paul Kennedy]

But taking Chesterfield as an example, they might actually switch from Labour to Lib Dem.

[Paul Kennedy]

The NUM actually have a good website:

http://www.num.org.uk/?p=home

[TomTom]

Small industry concentrated in South Yorkshire???? How ignorant! Have you not heard of the Durham and Northumberland coal fields?

Yes I have heard of them and I know the seam in Nottinghamshire started in bradford in the 1700s. So what ?

Compared to textiles and engineering coal was a small industry - yes Annabel I know when you were young they produced 284 million tonnes of coal and employed a million men in the pits..............but after the First War it declined and no longer represented the bulk of British exports.

Pre-1914 Britain's major exports were cotton and coal. The mainspring of the economy is not coal and West Yorkshire and Manchester are major centres of manufacturing industry - they used to be the main centres for electrical engineering.

The mines were nationalised because the mine owners failed to invest - it was under Govt control in WWI and the Sankey Commission 1919 agreed with the miners that it should stay nationalised but it was privatised in 1921 and went downhill thereafter.

British mines have thin seams, deep pits and were fragmented - only nationalisation gave them funds and a good safety record.

It is nevertheless a small industry compared to manufdacturing and it employed 10% workforce in 1914 but domestic service employed a lot more.

Heseltine trashed the mining areas in the 1980s to prove his Thatcherite credentials; Labour had trashed mining in the 1960s when cheap Libyan oil made coal uneconomic.

Modern education is to blame Graeme & Annabel, no-one seems to remember that its within many peoples lifetimes when coal was the biggest employer

I'll bow to Methusaleh on that one ! Coal is a dead sector which might have some future with clean-coal technology but otherwise it is dead because the Conservatives rigged the Base-Load Eolectricity supply in favour of gas rather than coal - which was stupid as we have now exhausted N Sea Gas in generating electricity rather than heating !

Nevertheless the coalfields are the least of Conservative worries in Northern constituencies - read The Pickles Papers if you want to see deeper scars.

[david]

The problem the Tories have in the North/Scotland/Wales, Midlands undecided, is that they are being seen as a mainly, London South East and the more prosperous bits of the UK party. Cameron and those around him seem to reinforce this view, even though many of them don't come from the London/SE originally, they have that sound and feel about them, perception is all. What happened in the 80/90's in the coal mining areas is not really relevant, they will never vote Tory anyway!

[Richard Carey]

Interesting, I got similar comments (although not mine-related) once or twice at the 2005 General Election too. Sensing that I was on a loser at those particular doors anyway, pointing out that Lady Thatcher wasn't a candidate in this election, and that I didn't have a policy role (being in short trousers) at the time, didn't seem to have as much of an impact as you would have thought.

It really must be a good example of how some politics is just completely based in one side of the brain...

[Neil C]

We should not have to bend over backwards to convince former members of a particulary strong interest group that somehow we are sorry for destroying their inocuous attempts to bring down the government of the day!!
Perhaps many ex-miners will hold the same kind of class-conflict prejudices towards anybody who has worked hard through individual effort in life to get somewhere, that their puppet masters held back in the 1980's!!
We will never convince them to vote for us, but maybe their younger family members will be swayed as they now live in a Britain that is not held to ransom every other week by an extremely narrow-minded interest group with extremist political aspirations, they hopefully will not be tainted by the same prejudices!!

[Serf]

Is it just me, or is there a thunderingly obvious difference between debating whether or not the action against the NUM was the right thing to do, and whether or not it had (1) a negative impact on the communities involved and (2) had an adverse impact on those communities' (and others') perception of the Conservative Party?

Graeme. I whole heartedly agree with you your comments, with one little provisio.

We have become used to senior Tories trashing the brand. When we hear comment such as this one, we are therefore unsure of whether, a) Someone is making a nuanced point, b) whether they are indulging in Navel Gazing self hatred.

There is no doubt that Mrs T did the right thing. Nor should there be any doubt that the damage was as large as it was, due to the inaction of previous governments and NUM intransigence. However the damage is a fact and we need a way to deal with it.

[John Coles]

""However the damage is a fact and we need a way to deal with it.""

The best way is to move on. Essential surgery was performed and the patient as ever (the working class, my class) suffered. But nothing is gained by dwelling on this. There are far more important things for Mr Cameron to address than an essential but disruptive battle of the 80s. His instinctive navel gazing is no substitute for policies on the more substative problems we face, north or south.

[Denis Cooper]

Well as Cameron said in the Western Mail article yesterday:

"I think the concern is we've become quite a divided country. The Government has no effective regional strategy."

which is partly because to a large extent regional policy was taken over by the EU, and guess what, the poorest "European regions" are not in the UK, they're in eastern Europe and that's where our money goes via Brussels.

However the government does have a kind of regional strategy - basically to go along with what business says it prefers, which means accepting that the south east corner will grow faster than the national average, therefore the north and west will grow more slowly than the average, therefore the so-called "north sout divide" will get wider rather than narrowing.

And that's exactly what has happened, which is why it's necessary to shovel increasing amounts of taxpayers' money in those directions. Not the fault of the people living there! It's government policy.

[Alfred of Wessex]

John Coles | July 18, 2006 at 16:24

"So that's all right, then. It's all Maggies' fault."

No, that's not what I meant. What I was trying to say, maybe not very diplomatically, is that whole communities suffered considerable deprivation as a result of the structural changes that occurred. These changes may have been necessary, but for Norman Lamont to claim during the second recession between 1987 and 1990 that "unemployment is a price worth paying...to control inflation" was the political equivalent of kicking a person when they were down.

I don't know how many times you have lost your job through no fault of your own, but let me tell you from personal experience that for a man it is one of the most devastating experiences one can ever experience - far worse than losing my sister to suicide. Imagine what it feels like when all the breadwinners lose their jobs, and the bottom falls out of the local economy.

Bitterness and resentment are not noble responses, and are in the end self-defeating. But you don't help people deal with either by treating them as if they don't matter simply because they are "not one of us".

Richard | July 18, 2006 at 17:24

"What do you think she should have done that wouldn't have involved throwing money at the problem?"

I honestly don't know the answer to that question. But the one thing people in those places deperately needed was HOPE. All they got was "Get on your bike". They needed to know that someone cared, that their lives mattered. Try getting hold of a copy of Neville Shute's "Ruined City" (1938) to see what might have helped.