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I'm shocked at those who are expending so much energy arguing with Christina Spite. My antenna has stopped tuning into her award-winning EUrant-monologue.

Very few of us are for staying in the EPP however we are the Tory Activists not the average Tory voter. A pragmatic withdrawal, (not a hasty one that won't even bring much benefit in public opinion) is required.

The average Tory voter wants to hear about Health, Education, Crime, Immigration, Pensions, and the Environment. The average man on the street doesn't even know what the EPP is. If we stayed in the EPP and kept on bleating "Europe Baaaaad, UK Goood" they would not notice.

I almost choked on my sandwich when Christina who must be about 107 years old, according to Annabel, claimed the rest of us are out of touch!

Christina, if you cared to step out onto the street and talk to people instead of hanging around with those who believe and think exactly like you do, you might realise that your comments are not as mainstream as you might think.

For a subject that a few deem unimportant it certainly generates a lot of postings.

Yes but half of the postings are just one person slagging someone else off,so they don't really count.

What do I think if its true that we are staying in EPP. Personally I couldn`t care less one way or another I just beleive in loyalty and I think that whatever the leadership decides we should support it.
Europe just isn`t important. It is not what the majority will decide to base there votes on and in my opinion a lot of the opposition to Europe is based on nothing more than an irrational hatred of foreigners. That`s why many on this site also feel strongly about race and immigration.
There is no chance of the party ever agreeing not only on a refernedum about Europe or withrawal and personally I think if it ever did it would be unelectable.
I just wished people on this site used there time discussing the subjects like health, education, crime etc that most people are concerned about not continually talk like educated versions of Alf Garnett!

Jack, you spin like Blair. Wanting out of Europe is not based on an irrational hatred of foriegners, rather having an accountable body dicate over our national Parliament. We talk about health, education and crime on here, but Europe has a direct impact on many of these subjects as 80% of our laws are coming from Brussels.

Why do the Federalists keep coming onto Europe thread saying talk about something else Health, Education ect. It's a little difficult as we don't have policies to talk about on them subjects as yet. We've had 2 policy commitments from David Cameron. The A list and the EPP. Not unreasonable we talk about their delivery surely?


Andrew, europhile fanatics like Jack generally prefer to avoid talking about Europe altogether, as they find it hard to come up with any intellectual justification for constantly handing power over to Brussels.

I just wished people on this site used there time discussing the subjects like health, education, crime etc that most people are concerned about

Because we all know that the EU has no impact on those issues at all.

'Europe just isn`t important'.

Writes Jack Stone

If that is so then why are we in the EU?


Well the real reason is so certain politicians and bureaucrats can line their pockets at taxpayers expence.

The only requirement upon them is to support the hidden powers that run the thing - the bankers (Rothschilds and Rockerfellers and their subsideries).

If you want to know more about this then read:

'The Sydicate' - the story of the coming world government by Nicholas Hagger

ISBN 1 903816858

The other reason to be obsessive about the EU is that Britain's membership has no real legitimacy (from 1972 to the present).

As usual Gareth, you refuse to answer my question as to what the benefits of staying in the EPP are except to say 'voters don't care'. Why do you pop up ad nauseum to crticise those who like our leader wish to withdraw?

The arguments about whether the average voter knows about the EPP or whether UKIP will let Labour in are all basically irrelevent until the Conservative Party sorts its stance on Europe out. The issue is 'do you think the British should govern themselves?'. If you do then our EU membership is incompatible with this and any other view is impossible once you look into the facts. The reason all our politicians stick to schools and health is that is all that is left in their power - the EU has the rest. This is why the argument about the EPP is important. If the Conservative MEPs cannot make this small move then it does not matter who wins the next election. A Labour Party who lets the EU run us is no worse than a Tory Party that does (neither will have any real power). If you don't agree with this please explain exactly how, for example, a Conservative government would have bailed out a single one of the recent car plant closures? Or will get our fishing rights back ... Or...

'I just wished people on this site used there time discussing the subjects like health, education, crime etc that most people are concerned about'

writes serf

No point in discussing these until you get the politics right - that means leaving the EU so we can make our own decisions on these matters instead of having other's interets rammed down our throats and taxpayers money removed from the budget by these people.

The 'benefits' are avoiding the hazards I refer to above. I've never suggested there were any 'benefits' other than these so asking me, ad nauseam (to borrow your favourite cliche) to outline something other than this, is a rather fruitless debating technique.

In any event, since I only ever respond to those suggesting that we ought to leave the EPP, it follows that their (and your) comments to that effect can only have been repeated as 'ad nauseam' as my own responses to those comments.

I think Gareth et al have to accept that if people are concerned about the EU they are going to talk about it. We all have our personal hobby horses - I've been banging on about non-jobs recently. Better we discuss it all here than in public viewing like we did before. See it as a safer environment where people can vent their displeasure.

That said I'd like to see this discussion focus more on the free trade idea.

Gareth -
" Cameron made his EPP pledge after Liam Fox made his (on 29th September 2005). Indeed, at the time, he was criticised by some for jumping on the Fox bandwagon" The campaign was well under way by then and Cameron was faced with angry Tories. Remember how many votes UKIP got in the Euro elections and what happened to those votes in 2005 - Most of them voted Tory - and they care passionately. If you want to lose them permanently go on being pro-EU against the wishes of party supporters. And I note that you are unable STILL to dream up any benefits at all.

AND the Telegraph's version today- - - " "MR CAMERON'S PLEDGE, FIRST MADE WHEN HE WAS LAGGING BEHIND DAVID DAVIES IN THE LEADERSHIP CONTEST" "

I in turn ignore "Torylady" whom I suspect of being neither, judging by the e-mail address - - which is "david cameron" at "is a hottie". Ye Gods there's teenage groupiness for you

The question that was put to the blog was - -
"Has anyone EVER had a punter on an estate mention our membership of the EPP on the doorstep?"

NOTE that "EVER" - his emphasis. I answered truthfully and got slagged off by a crowd of nasty bullies who hadn't read the question.

WHAT do those who criticise the stance of many to the EU have to say about the [how many?] who voted Tory in 2005 but UKIP in the Euro-elections. So many here are arrogant if they think they can be ignored.

And Jack Stone - The EU IS important - Brussels makes 80% of our laws

Nice try Christina, but I'm afraid your own rather lazily constructed petard has been the cause of your hoisting...

You wrote:

"The reason for Cameron's promise was that he had the question thrown at him again and again in his hustings."

I replied:

" Cameron made his EPP pledge after Liam Fox made his (on 29th September 2005). Indeed, at the time, he was criticised by some for jumping on the Fox bandwagon"

You now say:

"The campaign was well under way by then and Cameron was faced with angry Tories"

Now, how about you admit that Cameron did not make his EPP pledge as a result of grief at the hustings?

Right "NONTORYBLOKE" hiding your identity as "Torylady". You post in such a childish way - - - making fun of people's names is puerile drivel .When it's anonymous it's cowardly too. My advice to you is "Go back to your sandwich and choke on it properly this time"

I have fought political battles all my life and I've never used a pseudonym, It's the cowards's way.

I'm not 107 or anything like it. I ran my own highly appreciated political website until Dec 2005 and I worked locally for the Tory in the 2005 election. I get out plenty and I "mix" with umpteen tories electronically on better blog-Comments than this. Here there's a small Cameroon coterie who won't hear a word said against a deeply flawed leader.

Gareth - Would you like some more hairs to split? You're now dancing on the head of a needle as to when the "hustings" or the campaign generally started.

The plain fact is that at husting after husting the matter was brought up. Alright it was organised but none the worse for that. we got that pledge repeated again and again. He won't be allowed to forget.

No hairs or pins here! Just you back tracking and now actually changing entirely the point you initially made!

Anyway, this is getting tiresome ...

"Anyway, this is getting tiresome ..." - Gareth

Because you're losing the argument?

Having read William Hague's speech - what depressing stuff. He hasn't learnt a thing over the last 9 years. The same old rhetoric, we will push/fight for a flexible European Union. All based on Lady Thatcher's rebate, which didn't require a Treaty change, and if not successful Lady Thatcher had a Bill prepared to bring it about through domestic legislation. Isn't it time the Shadow Cabinet learnt how the EU works, or are they just continuing the deception?.

"Because you're losing the argument?"

Erm, I hardly think so.

Anyway, shouldn't you be updating your charming blog with more rants about Muslims, and the BBC/Gruaniad conspiracy to turn everyone into 'Sodomites'?

Ad Hominem, Ad Hominem,
The resort of the vague and dim,
I thank the Lord we have the vim,
To eschew that Ad Hominem!

(apologies to Ken Dodd)

All based on Lady Thatcher's rebate, which didn't require a Treaty change,

No, it just required the Anglophile Helmut Schmidt as German Chancellor to tell Giscard d'Estaing he wanted to move on and stop this harridan from ruining every summit............that's why Thatcher got her rebate.

What is all the fuss about? The nature of the group system means that no one ever enjoys perfect alliances. Most groups are very broad church. The only exception is probably UKIP's tiny group which provides a home to a fairly cohesive bunch of nasty oddballs.

Well Steve!

'UKIP's tiny group which provides a home to a fairly cohesive bunch of nasty oddballs'

You guys really like the personal abuse stuff don't you! There are oddballs all over the place. Some would say that to be involved at all in politics these days makes you an oddball. A large proportion of UKIP are ex-Conservative activists 'lending' their support to UKIP because the Conservative Party is in a hopeless mess. Why don't you guys stick to the point: Why should the Conservative MEPs stay in the EPP - because a lot of them are really Europhile LibDems? Want a bet on their chances of being at the top of the party 'list' next election once the grass roots get their vote? Remember Roy Perry?

Well Michael!

In my book anyone who has been roundly denounced by respectable campaigners against anti-semitism qualifies for the nasty oddball tag.

Funny thing is that quite of few of the Conservatives natural allies in economic matters are in the Liberal Group but alas they are also federalist.

Just a short note,
I have just had confirmation from Brian Crowley, the Irish Head of the UEN Group that the PiS have given him a cast iron guarantee thatthey will not join the Tory Group. There are those in my group, the IndDem that have talked to Hague in the past but mmuch ofthe Press coverage today is wildly inaccurate. I do not in any way believe that the Czech Polish spat was cooked up by Europhiles in CCO, but a serious case of 'shit happens'.
I understand that Hague is going to Strasbourg next week, this was booked becausethe plan was to launchthe Group next week. (Legally to create a new group it hasto be announced in the Parliament chamber bythe President ofthe Parliament) However given the rift between prospective members that will no longer happen,unless Mr Hague is weilding a very big stick.
Interestingly Hague's comments on the Today programme yesterday are odd to say the least. The next Strasbourg session is tabled for the 4th July, before his prospective date, the end of July. Therefore the next opportunity to create the Group is September at the earliest. Any announcement wbeforethat date would have moral but not A few points
I have just had confirmation from Brian Crowley, the Irish Head of the UEN Group that the PiS have given him a cast iron guarantee that they will not join the Tory Group. There are those in my group, the Ind/Dem that have talked to Hague in the past but much of the Press coverage today is wildly inaccurate. I do not in any way believe that the Czech Polish spat was cooked up by Europhiles in CCO, but a serious case of 'shit happens'.
I understand that Hague is going to Strasbourg next week, this was booked because the plan was to launch the Group next week. (Legally to create a new group it has to be announced in the Parliament chamber by the President of the Parliament) However given the rift between prospective members that will no longer happen, unless Mr Hague is wielding a very big stick.
Interestingly Hague's comments on the Today programme yesterday are odd to say the least. The next Strasbourg session is tabled for the 4th July, before his prospective date, the end of July. Therefore the next opportunity to create the Group is September at the earliest. Any announcement before that date would have moral but not legal force. However because the planned June date has been missed the EPP/ED will still get all the cash that travels with each member (approx 50,000 euros/see Roger Helmer for precision on that one), as it is divvied up once every 6 months.
So there would be little point on being precipitate before December, which could give the Poles and Czechs time to kiss and make up/but I doubt it. I suspect the comments were designed to protect Bob Neil in Bromley, not out of any cohesive strategy. From what I hear from canvas returns so far, he might just need a little protection.

Oh Steve, cohesive oddballs is an odd term. A touch like Conservative policy, bit of a contradiction. The Ind/Dem Group is odd in that all its members believe that democracy works most effectively within the nation state, a view shared by many posters here. Any serious allegation of anti-semitism levelled at the Group has been dealt with through various press ombudsmen in various EU countries. I know, I did it.
Given that the Tories are trying to jump into bed with a party that has banned Gay Pride marches in Warsaw I would say you are on a pretty sticky wicket if you start throwing allegations around, wouldn't you?

You didn't do a very good job then did you?

League of Polish families? LAOS?

Also, your posting indicates that you claim knowledge of the In/dem group, so perhaps you could elaborate on the League of Polish families and the demand by other groups for a debate in the European Parliament on homophobia.

Steve,
Keep up, the League of Polish Families (LPR), who are in Government with Samobroona (the Self Defence League - leader Andreas Lepper who famously said, "Can you rape a tart?" when one of his MEPs was accused of doing just that this year) and the Tories potential allies PiS left the Ind/Dem Group in December of last year, after the Ind Dem Group discovered hard evidence of anti-semtism displayed by one of its members. The remaining Poles in the Ind/Dem Group (7 of them) stand as independents. The European Parliament demand for a debate on Homophobia was launched against all members of the current Polish Government, not against any members of the Ind Dem Group.
In the case of LAOS, allegations have been made, allegations that are either unsubstantiated or in the case of believing the story of 9/11 to have been a Mossad plot, have been firmly rejected.
You have got to do better than that.

Smoke and mirrors methinks. Can you be a little more forthcoming regarding your contacts with press ombudsmen? What were the allegations, who made them, against whom, who did you contact, exactly what did they tell you? I'm sorry but "I know, I did it" doesn't carry much weight on its own. People who are sincere in their campaigns against anti-semitism, homophobia and a host of other prejudices raised concerns about some of the people you claim to have vetted. Concerns that have yet to be answered.

One specific example was an allegation in the major Swedish daily, Dagens Nyheter, early last year. I spoke to their own ombudsman and the Swedish press ombudsman. Though no formal apology was forthcoming a private agreement not to republish the allegation (after all it is a criminal offence in many EU countries to be publically anti-semetic). The allegations have not been repeated. I also have regular meetings with the European Jewish Council here in Brussels to monitor the situation.

Since that time there have been no formal allegations apart from on blogs and such like, which to be frank if I took seriously I would spend my entire time running from pillar to post.

The allegations are much like the claims made by Richard Corbett and so on in his Britian in Europe pamphlet, but mostly concern the LPR, which as I mention have not been a member of our group for over 6 months. When the Lega Nord produced its comments about the cartoon affair (and some of its election publicity) we initiated proceding against them which has resulted in their expulsion from our group.

As I mention, there are not enough hours in the day to rebut every hostile article in ionisphere, but seriously allegations are always followed up, and dealt with appropriately.

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