Hague: Britain must be a strong player in Europe, campaigning for a transatlantic free trade area

This morning's Telegraph has the same story on the EPP that ConservativeHome published last night.  Toby Helm writes:

"David Cameron has re-opened Tory divisions over Europe by dropping a firm promise to pull Conservative Euro-MPs out of a federalist alliance in the European Parliament within a year of becoming leader... Mr Hague's spokesman said he was "not putting a timetable" on withdrawal, and that it might not happen until after the European elections in 2009.  A spokesman for Mr Cameron said "good progress" was being made and an announcement would be made in July, though it was unclear what this would be about."

The different positions of the two spokesmen point to possible differences in the outlooks of Messrs Hague and Cameron with the Shadow Foreign Secretary's office now most sceptical about leaving the EPP.  Speaking on this morning's Today programme Mr Hague said that he will have something to report on the EPP at the end of next month and that the commitment had not been abandoned in any way.   

The Times reports that Daniel Hannan MEP "would personally pull out of the group if Mr Cameron reneged on his pledge".  “I have every intention of keeping his word," Mr Hannan told The Times.

The timing over this EPP story stems from Mr Hague's failure to address the subject in a speech he will be making on 'The Future of Europe' to Open Europe later today.  The FT writes:

"Tensions within the Conservatives over Europe will escalate today when the party's foreign affairs spokesman makes a landmark speech that in effect ignores the pledge by David Cameron, Tory leader, to withdraw from the main centre-right grouping in the European parliament."

Mr Hague will use the speech to distance himself from those Conservatives who would like to leave the EU. "Britain's place is in the European Union," he will say, "a strong player in Europe, not at the margins".  The speech focuses on the need for freer trade between Europe and North America:

"I have been surprised by the breadth of support across Europe for a transatlantic free trade area.  It is a logical extension to the single market. If we think that removing barriers to trade within Europe is a good thing - removing the transatlantic barriers would be even better."

BBC reports that Mr Hague "will warn that Europe's prosperity "depends on free trade", and that while globalisation creates understandable fears among member states, "protectionists are undermining the EU's prime purpose"."  The Guardian says that "Mr Hague is expected today to unveil plans to allow different levels of integration inside the expanded EU, incorporating potential members such as Turkey."

***
Related link: Neil O'Brien of Open Europe asks 'Can Europe Ever Learn to Listen?'

Comments

[Serf]

A Strong Player in Europe?

Problem is that the EU is a Football team and we want to play Rugby.

[Larry]

I noticed a headline on the Telegraph's site this morning: 'Banker of the Year in Major Fraud'. Strangely enough, the story WAS about a banker of the year carrying out a major fraud. Life's full of surprises.

[william]

The USA will never agree to paying the rates we pay for manufactured goods,e.g a TV in Europe costs 65% more than in the USA. The EU will never agree to drop its anti-dumping programme either.

Hague's whistling up his hind quarters to cover his embarrassment at not being able to take a decision about anything.

Charming chap. Good talker and debater. Excellent author, but political leader? We'd do better with Max Hastings' pet labrador.

[Donal Blaney]

Dan Hannan is to be commended for his stance. IF the leadership fails to honour its pledge, the suspicion will be that it was never meant to be honoured in the first place - and that it was simply a ruse to dupe those eurosceptics who endorsed him into supporting his leadership

[Annabel Herriott]

But I have just heard William Hague on the Today programme, that they were just sorting out partners so they could come out of EPP. He said they were not abandoning coming out of it. And they say women are gossips!!

[Derek]

Let's remain calm, positive and resolute. So far all this is rumour and speculation. Annabel says that William Hague said the pledge has not been abandoned. The inference is that it may be some time before it is fulfilled. What we must do is ensure that this is not forgotten. We should write to William Hague and David Cameron, and sign the petition here

[Cllr Keith Standring]

Daniel Hannan MEP is not only right he has been consistently right. How refreshing to have a younger generation politician who is not prepared to be diverted. Together with Philip Davies, MP for Shipley and the other MP's who have associated themselves with the BETTER OFF OUT campaign, the Conservative Party has a bright future.

[Larry]

Women? Gossips? Never.

[Richard Hyslop]

I hope this is not true as it is vital that the Conservative Party withdraws from the EPP-ED. I have worked for the Conservative Party in the European Parliament and I have seen our relationship with the EPP-ED for myself and to be blunt it does not work. An example of this is that we already produce our own whip and regularly vote against the EPP-ED, so why remain a member of a group that we regularly disagree with?

[Disillusioned]

Since Britain imports more than it exports from/to EU member states it would surely be in the interests of the EU to negotiate a free trade agreement with Britain should we leave the EU. – Whilst enjoying the benefits of a free trade arrangement with the EU could we not join NAFTA? – Britain would infinitely become incredibly attractive to foreign investment if it had free trade links with North America and Europe.

Either way membership of the EU in its current state is not in British interests. We pay an absurdly high amount of money into the EU, even with the rebate Thatcher courageously won and Blair unceremoniously signed away we get ripped off. For as long as the French can siphon off billions of EU funds to prop up backward farmers, the Spanish can steal British fish and Brussels can destroy any notion of parliamentary sovereignty the EU is bad for Britain. It’s naive to believe we will change this cancerous institution from within.

[anontory]

we've had to listen to blair peddling rubbish about "isolation" for 8 years. now we have to listen to it from hague?

the cameronites have gone too far.

im voting UKIP now and hope cameron loses.

when will the Establishment Tories ever learn?

[TC]

People always assume we could just join NAFTA if we left the EU. I like to think the Americans would be glad to have us, especially after the support we have given them in recent years. Nevertheless, I doubt such reciprocity would be forthcoming. The US doesn't really want us in NAFTA, they would rather we were 'their man in the EU'.

This highlights the only real advantage of EU membership - the enhanced scope for diplomacy. The argument Hague is now making, and which Blair has always stuck to, is that Britain must be in the EU in order to change it to better meet our interests.

The real question, the elephant in the room that never gets mentioned, is whether reform of the EU is actually a possibility. The one certainty is that the status quo is not an option. If we can force through the necessary reforms (and I wouldn't bet on it) than we can stay in the EU - otherwise withdrawal has to be on the table.

[Disillusioned]

"im voting UKIP now and hope cameron loses."

It’s people like you we will need to thank then when Labour win again or Cameron doesn't win an overall majority (and Labour/LibDems form a coalition). The fact is the only electable mildly eurosceptic party is the Conservatives. A vote for UKIP if not a wasted vote is a vote for Labour and the LibDems. Simple fact is if you want less powers for the EU the only way to achieve it is through voting Conservative.

[Paul Kennedy]

"im voting UKIP now and hope cameron loses." 09:34

And all that that will achieve is a continuation of this dreadful Labour Government.

[johnC]

'if you want less powers for the EU the only way to achieve it is through voting Conservative'

A strange idea, given that it was the Conservative Party who took us into the Common Market in the first place and then brought in the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty, all without a referendum.
Just when has the Conservative party ever reduced the powers of the EU in this country ?

[John Coles]

Why on earth is Mr Cameron turning to yesterday's politicians to resolve today's political problems? Hague, Heseltine, Clarke and Gummer - these people have failed the country and the Conservative party. Why welcome them back? This is the first backfire in this "you are forgiven" policy - Hague never was much more than a likeable chap with a talent for debating: absolutely daft to expect him to resolve the EPP-affiliation problem. Indeed, this problem is now being kicked into the political long grass - exactly as Clarke suggested a few months ago. Now watch as rampant Europhilia takes hold.

[Jon Gale]

For christ's sake!

The Czech and Polish possible partners have had a spat with each other, suddenly through the magic of lazy journalists, chinese whispers and gossip this becomes "Cameron abandons EPP pledge".

Everyone ignores Hague saying pledge has not been abandoned and anouncement by end of July.

Then Hague delivers a speech abouit reforming the EU (back) to a single market, possibly a transatlantic one, a more flexible decentralized EU and pledging that no more sovereignty will be lost to Brussels without a referendum (of slight interest I would've thought) - and this magically becomes the height of Europhilia prompting some to switch to UKIP in disgust!

Get a grip and excercise some of that grey goo in your heads people!

[Christina]

Yes, the rumour was false. Hague clearly stated we were leaving the EPP and starting a new group, on the Today prog. You can now listen to the online recording, if you missed the broadcast.

It's here at 7:31am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

[johnC]

Are you calling our esteemed Editor lazy and his 'impeccable sources' nothing but chinese whispers and gossip ?

[I should have voted Davis]

Mr Cameron made one specific pledge during his leadership campaign - to split from EPP. He told Roger Helmer that we would be out in the first week. There was no talk of it being conditional on forming a new group. He has had six months to deliver and he has failed to do so.

Cameron has shown that he cannot be trusted to deliver a simple pledge. He has surrounded himself with Europhiles like Heseltine, Gummer and Clarke. His Chief of Staff worked for Chris Patten.

Those of us who voted Cameron because of the EPP pledge has been betrayed. We will not let this drop. Roll on Bournemouth and let battle commence!

[Jon Gale]

JohnC,

Not our dear Editor of course, but the Telegraph, jornalists in general (the Guardian ialso runs with a tory chaos story) and likes of anontory, william and John Coles on this thread.

[Mark Fulford]

Mr Cameron made one specific pledge during his leadership campaign - to split from EPP. He told Roger Helmer that we would be out in the first week. There was no talk of it being conditional on forming a new group.

Cameron was elected leader by members, many of whom went to hustings. I went to the Frimley hustings and at that meeting Cameron was absolutely specific that there was no set timescale for withdrawal - that it was a matter for his Foreign Sec.

[michael mcgough]

I remember asking Liam Fox about EPP membership in March 2004 and being told to expect an announcement at the end of April----none came.How convenient to defer announcing 'we know not what' until July ,post a difficult by-election where the candidate is a EUrophile unlike Eric Forth.Tonight's speech seems like it will be a re-run of one that Michael Portillo gave to the Bruges Group some years ago.Manana,manana----this will continue until the Tories have done their bit to deliver the EU Constitution.Just like Labour news management and Cameron and Hague talking with differing forked tongues.
How sad.

[TomTom]

to negotiate a free trade agreement with Britain should we leave the EU. –

There is NO need to do so it is automatic.

China has a Free Trade Agreement with the EU purely because Clintongranted China MFN Status.

If the Us were to grant Great Britain MFN Status it would automatically have tariff-free access to the EU alongside China.

[buxtehude]

Here we go. They can't even be honest about breaking a pledge.

So what's new? Same old politicians.

[buxtehude]

Jack Stone, where are you when we need you? I'm really looking forward to what you have to say.

Yesterday evening you argued that Cameron was to be commended, that staying in the EPP was sensible. Today, the Stepfords are saying that there is no broken pledge and Cameron will still pull us out of the EPP.

So what is your position? Is it 'sensible' to stay in the EPP or is it 'sensible' to pull out?

Or is 'sensible' whatever Cameron spins from one day to the next?

[johnC]

I just wish Cameron and Hague would be honest and admit that they have been bullied by the likes of Heseltine, Gummer and Clarke into 'indefinitely postponing' this pledge rather than spinning some fantasy tale about squabbling Czechs and
Poles. If they really wanted to withdraw they would do so immediately. The simple act by our MEPs of sitting away from the EPP-ED group on the European Parliament would say far more about the Tory view of the 'Future of Europe' than any high-flown speech by William Hague.

[Gareth]

Has anyone EVER had a punter on an estate mention our membership of the EPP on the doorstep?

[buxtehude]

"Has anyone EVER had a punter on an estate mention our membership of the EPP on the doorstep?"

So what? Tell me Gareth, doesn't our European policy matter, whether or not the voters care? Doesn't keeping pledges matter?

Winning an election of course is crucial. But it isn't the ONLY purpose of politics. What you do when you get there matters, and this says something about it. And how you behave - whether you stick to your pledges - also matters, doesn't it?

[Chad]

"Has anyone EVER had a punter on an estate mention our membership of the EPP on the doorstep?"

Probably not, but this was a pledge made to members during a leadership election when the issue of the EU, did arise, often.

The point is, if a pledge important to one group of loyal party members is broken, then what chance is there of Cameron being honest to the public at large?

[Chris]

Anyone fancy us just joining EFTA instead and remaining memebers of the EEA? You get the four freedoms, but don't have to pay French farmers not to grow food.

[Chad]

I'm simply in favour of letting the people decide our direction for the next 25 years with a referendum.

[Cllr Iain Lindley]

So the chinese whispers and the usual suspects on this site have turned "negotiations are tricky and taking longer than expected" into "a broken pledge, Cameron will never be trusted over anything again". Nonsense.

[Chad]

When do you believe EPP withdrawal will occur by Iain? Want to bet on it?

[Jon "I know the Truth" Gale]

A new grouping in the European Parliament - how difficult could that be? Obviously only take a week at most, they could pull out tommorow! (this afternoon in fact - why wait?).

The ODP leader called the Polish PM a "dangerous populist" the polish angrily reactedby saying they wouldn't enter any group with ODP.

This would obviously never cause negotions to be extended while Hague tries to patch things up - no, its obviously a ploy by Cameron's entirely Europhile cabinet to avoid fulfilling the pledge - But we weren't fooled, you saw straight through it!! Hah! A Czech-polish spat - that's just what They wanted you to think!!! We're not stupid you know!!!!!1!! I just hope that They will admit it!! GO ON ADMIT IT!!!!

As for "Judas" Hague saying that:
"There should be no integration without consent. Under a Conservative government there would be no Treaty changes that transfer more competences to the EU without a referendum,"

Hah!! Is it likey that They would would ever allow this to happen???!! No, its obviously Europhile black propaganda!!! Its all done with psychotropic drugs in microwaves you know!!!!

[JohnM]

You and your betting Chad.

Is this part of a greater problem that you should be dealing with?

Or do you win the bets you place elsewhere?

[christina speight]

I personally had the EPP betrayal thrown in my face on the doorstep when the local UKIP candidate was plugging the matter for all he was worth!
There are millions of Tory voters who put other matters first but still hate the EU and all its works. if this promise were broken I'd vote UKIP too because I rate Europe as the great poisoned apple in our midst. But let's wait a little longer.

So we'd lose to Labour. That's better than ditching your principles and betraying the British people.

[James Maskell]

I hope you threw something back in the UKIP members face...though Im not entirely sure its legal!

[Tam Large]

Has anyone encountered on the doorstep more than a handful of voters who want MORE EU control and a United States of Europe? I think not. That's what the EPP are working for.

Cameron has thrown away nearly every other conservative core principle / belief - a firm and principled stand on the EU (evidenced by leaving the deception of the EPP membership) was all that was left to distinguish us from Blair.

We work for the Party because we want a change of direction away from Labour / socialism - if a conservative administration does the same as Blair, what is the point of electing one? This country needs desperately a Conservative Government, not just that calls itself "conservative".

[Cllr Iain Lindley]

I personally had the EPP betrayal thrown in my face on the doorstep when the local UKIP candidate was plugging the matter for all he was worth!

Given that this story broke late last night, you are quite clearly making this up.

[victoria street]

We have had to listen to Major then Blair telling us we have to be “at the heart of Europe” or risk “isolation”.

Now we have “modern Conservatives” saying the same.

What is the point of Open Europe? It has done nothing. Alex Hickman has left, Neil O’Brien is trying to leave to get on the A-list. Leach cannot raise money for it.

Everything looks pretty ropey!

[Chad]

"You and your betting Chad."

:-)

Hi John, that's my financial markets background.

Lot's of people spout a load of stuff, but I have found that you only find the real truth, what they really think (not what they would simply like to be true) when people have money riding on the outcome.

A small wager going to charity (or the TPA in my case) can make all the difference.

I like to dig to find out real opinion, and losing a few quid is more than acceptable in my quest to do that.

[johnC]

'they could pull out tommorow! (this afternoon in fact - why wait?).'

Exactly right (except for the spelling). Our prospective partners have been kept hanging around by our indecisiveness for far too long. They are waiting for us to give a lead by withdrawing from the EPP. No wonder they doubt whether we really mean it.

[JohnM]

Fair point, Chad :o)

And a good free market view as well - plus the TPA is a damned good cause.

To go back to the issue at hand, personally, I half wonder if we don't need to show some balls and just leave the EPP whether or not anyone else joins us. When other parties of similar views in other countries see that we aren't somehow destroyed by thunderbolts from the heavens (given that EUrocrats appear to believe in their divine right to rule), they might very well come and join us.

If we sit and wait in some childish fashion, each egging the other on because we're all afraid to be the one to move first, we'll never get anywhere and the EU grand project to keeps steam-rollering onwards.

[Jamie]

So Hague was lying on Today and BBC Breakfast when he said the Cons would leave ?

[christina speight]

Cllr Iain Lindley - Please don't call me a liar and be so stupid too when you say. "Given that this story broke late last night, you are quite clearly making this up." What an unpleasant man. An apology will do.

There was an election in 2005 - remember? We were then in the EPP - Remember? The UKIP candidate was going round saying that the Tories are a federalist party - just look they're in the leading federalist group! It wasn't a big talking point but I did get it thrown in my face once [NOT by a UKIP member, but by a disgusted Tory who was unaware of that]

[Gareth]

"I've personally had the EPP betrayal thrown in my face on the doorstep when the local UKIP candidate was plugging the matter for all he was worth!"

Crikey! I don't know what's more impressive, UKIP out canvassing at 8am this morning or you being hot on their heels!

What was this 'UKIP candidate' campaigning for? Running for council on a platform supporting tory withdrawl from the EPP?

The other leg has bells on it Christina ...

[david]

If we join NAFTA will that mean the removal of all tariffs/controls on US/Canadian agricultural produce? Wonderful if true. Has anyone told those perennial whingers and parasites the farmers? Won't they be pleased.

[lucy74]

"I've personally had the EPP betrayal thrown in my face on the doorstep..."

Christina - to be fair to Iain, you did say specifically that you had the EPP withdrawal thrown in your face.

"What an unpleasant man"

Hmmm. pot, kettle and black spring to mind. I can't think of a single post you have written which hasn't been unpleasant in tone and a badly argued rant against all things modern/European/Cameroon.

[D W Buxton]

So, same old story, Cameron wants to be on the EU gravy train. Hate to say that I told you so, everything about the man is unprincipled. As to changing the EU from inside, some hope, snowballs and hell spring to mind. I fear that everyone who voted for the Green Moron were duped, he's as bad as Blairy Poppins.

[JohnM]

I think Christina, Cllr Ian and Gareth are on different wavelengths.

She's talking about an incident during last year's GE which, admittedly, could not be related to DC's pledge to leave the EPP. However, it doesn't stop the likelihood that some poor, demented UKIP type DID bring the subject up at that time.

While it does not relate directly to the particular point under discussion today re leaving the EPP and the potential broken pledge, it is relevant to the overall topic and it's a bit harsh to be name-calling just because it doesn't suit your point of view guys.

[JohnM]

When I say subject - obviously I mean membership of the EPP given its divergence to the Conservative Party membership's natural Euro-scepticism.

I really need to make myself clearer first time round.

[Andrew Woodman]

How did Labour get that question in first??

[Ross Cowling]

Having comitted to withdrawing from the EPP during the leadership election, David Cameron now needs to carry through is pledge. If he backs down at this stage and does not pull out then he will be open to critisism from all sides that he is "flip flopping" over this issue of Europe. The Conservative Party is not suited to being a member of the EPP and needs to move soon to give itself the best possible position in any new grouping that may be formed.

[Gareth]

Of course it's relevant John. Highly relevant. NO ONE CARES about whether our MEPs are members of the EPP, the RAC or the NSPCC.

This Europe obsession is like collective alcoholism. The slightest drop of the hard stuff sends the party onto a bender of Europe ranting. Meanwhile, the voters, who were just beginning to think we'd locked the Europe obsession in a cupboard with a sturdy lock, look on in dismay and disgust.

[JohnM]

I personally get better value from the AA :oP

Actually, no I don't...I can't afford to run a car under the tax burden of Gordon :o|

[Chad]

"NO ONE CARES about whether our MEPs are members of the EPP."

Not true. I care.

[Cllr Iain Lindley]

While it does not relate directly to the particular point under discussion today re leaving the EPP and the potential broken pledge, it is relevant to the overall topic and it's a bit harsh to be name-calling just because it doesn't suit your point of view guys.

I would have ignored her post if she had not tried to pass it off as something that happened as a direct result of yesterday's events.

On that note if we created a manifesto based on everything one disgruntled Tory voter had said on a doorstep we'd have a very odd set of policies!

[JohnM]

And it's not just you, Chad.

What was the magic word earlier? "Consistency"

We can't hope to be taken seriously on Europe (which, if we're honest, has to be one of the most important issues facing not just this country but all EU members and potential members) while we hold one position nationally and yet sit with a party grouping that holds completely divergent federalist views in the European Parliament.

It makes as little sense as a pact with the LibDems at a national level.

Actually...show of hands...who here would accept the EPP but not a pact with the LibDems because they make about as much sense as each other.

[Gareth]

You're quite right Chad. I ought to have said, no one (apart from Europe obsessed tory members, or in your case, ex-tory members) cares.

Any way, you shouldn't care less either. You're not a tory and are planning to run against a tory candidate in an election.

[Apuleia]

It's about the EPP, which isn't the EU. My preferred combo is 'In EU, out of EPP'.

'Sitting on your own' in the EP isn't the end of the political world. It wouldn't matter a damn, except to those Conservative MEPs who like chairing things. (Hannan's quitting the EPP anyway, no?) Let Frau Merkel stamp her foot - she'll have to talk to DC eventually. Her NBFs are Brown & Blair? Well, how nice for her - for now.

The to-be-won-over electorate doesn't care about the EPP but (activists do and) political journalists will try to make them care about a broken promise and 'Tory disunity again'. The reptiles are salivating over the prospect (distant, I pray) of a 'Bastards kill off Cameron' story, so they can re-hash all their old John Major copy. Skilful handling is vital for Party unity now, but absolutely critical for media-cred. The Hague interview this morning was not skilful.

This EPP move is difficult. Nevertheless, DC made a P-R-O-M-I-S-E. Fancy footwork urgently required at CPHQ to convince that this is postponement, not cancellation. And not by the twerps who advised DC to make this pledge without doing their homework beforehand.

[Adam]

Oh dear. It appears that setting up a new grouping in the European Parliament is actually quite difficult. Maybe the eurosceptic MEPs (Hannan and friends) have been overselling the ease of this a bit.

Does anyone even know who Conservatives are supposed to be trying to sit with, and what the rationale for choosing those partners - is it really worth dropping the German Christian Democrats just so we can jump into bed with French ultra-protectionists?

[Gareth]

I suspect it's the prospect of jumping into bed with Polish ultra-Catholics that is causing more unease Adam.

[malcolm]

Well said Apuleja.I think you have it in a nutshell.But a P-R-O-M-I-S-E is a promise and Cameron will have to deliver.No amount of skilful words will enable him to renege on it.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"On that note if we created a manifesto based on everything one disgruntled Tory voter had said on a doorstep we'd have a very odd set of policies!"

I believe you can see such a manifesto here!

[Editor]

"NO ONE CARES about whether our MEPs are members of the EPP."

What voters do care about is whether they can trust someone to keep a promise. That is the key issue here and I hope that David Cameron will overrule any objections that William Hague may have and deliver on his pledge.

Some think that WH refuted the rumour on EPP retreat this morning on the Today programme. Yesterday evening the press were getting a different spin which is why The Times, FT and Telegraph have ALL run with the retreat story this morning. Is it a retreat? Or is it just a muddle? Time will tell.

[Gareth]

As I understand it, many of our MEP's believe they made an equally binding pledge to get elected in 2004.

It's interesting though that you don't even attempt to defend the idea that the substance of this really matters to anyone.

[Gareth]

Very good DVA. I thought maybe it would be a link to Chad's election site though ...

[Tam Large]

Conservative voters have been betrayed by our MEPs' membership of the EPP ever since the Conservatives joined that federalist flagship.

Several times I had this hypocricy mentioned to me on the doorstep back in the General Election campaign as an example of "tories say one thing and do another". It was around March 2005 that the issue became widely known - and deplored. This was ordinary voters, not UKippers. It IS an issue. The compounding of the hypocricy by Cameron betraying on his withdrawal pledge is another huge negative signal to the millions who hoped for some change from the endless integration and empty words.

I also agree that irrespective of the merits of the issue - he will be branded a"flip-flop" and it will be used against him daily. Silly silly man.

[christina speight]

If someone thinks that nobody cares about the EPP / EU that person is wildly out of touch. I agree that ordinary voters may not know about the EPP but let me assure you that it was debated in Tory circles non-stop in the pre-election run up. [See both Helmer's and Hannan's blogs] as well as discussion groups. And for the head-in-the-sand brigade MORI found that not only does a majority of the public want to leave the EU but a two-thirds majority of Tory voters does. [Incidentally the EU's own poll found that a a majority of Britons thought Britain gets no benefit from membership]

The reason for Cameron's promise was that he had the question thrown at him again and again in his hustings. That was brought on by Tory supporters expressing dismay - as I experienced. It was forced out of him

I still think that Cllr Iain Lindley and Graeme were just a bit too keen to be clever dicks. They've been caught out and should apologise. [It's a good idea to think before you write]

[Gareth]

"Several times I had this hypocricy mentioned to me on the doorstep back in the General Election campaign as an example of "tories say one thing and do another"."

My eye-brows are arched to the ceiling (and I have a VERY high ceiling) ...

[christina speight]

If someone thinks that nobody cares about the EPP / EU that person is wildly out of touch. I agree that ordinary voters may not know about the EPP but let me assure you that it was debated in Tory circles non-stop in the pre-election run up. [See both Helmer's and Hannan's blogs] as well as discussion groups. And for the head-in-the-sand brigade MORI found that not only does a majority of the public want to leave the EU but a two-thirds majority of Tory voters does. [Incidentally the EU's own poll found that a a majority of Britons thought Britain gets no benefit from membership]

The reason for Cameron's promise was that he had the question thrown at him again and again in his hustings. That was brought on by Tory supporters expressing dismay - as I experienced. It was forced out of him

I still think that Cllr Iain Lindley and Graeme were just a bit too keen to be clever dicks. They've been caught out and should apologise. [It's a good idea to think before you write]

[Chad]

;-)

Do try to keep on subject though please Gareth!

"As I understand it, many of our MEP's believe they made an equally binding pledge to get elected in 2004. "
Um, you can't have it both ways. Cameron said he was elected on a platform of change, and he is seeking to deliver that change.

His EPP withdrawal pledge was the clearest definable part of that chnage mandate.

So is the change real or spin?

[Gareth]

"The reason for Cameron's promise was that he had the question thrown at him again and again in his hustings. That was brought on by Tory supporters expressing dismay - as I experienced. It was forced out of him."

Your capacity not to let the facts get in the way of your 'argument' is admirable Christina.

Cameron made his EPP pledge long before the hustings started.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"Very good DVA. I thought maybe it would be a link to Chad's election site though ..."

I was tempted Gareth. I'm trying to avoid Chad-baiting today, although I'm sure somebody else will do the honours at some point...

[Chad]

;-) Chad-baiting? I'm sure you spend more time mas... no sorry, too rude. :-)

[Apuleia]

Seen this? Sorry if you have.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2006/06/cameron_euro_co.html

[David Barnby]

James Elles' SE ‘Conservative’ MEP in his latest newsletter: 'Keeping in Touch' does not mention anything about David Cameron's promise that Conservative MEPs leave the EPP. Why is this?

James E is also very happy to promote and urge on Commission President Barroso in his drive to have the rejected (by the French and Dutch) EU Constitution implemented through the back door.

JAMES ELLES WRITES:

'In mid-May, Commission President Barroso announced a new policy initiative to “deliver a Europe of results”. ...............

'The initiative makes clear, however, that the failure [rejected by French and Dutch] of the constitutional Treaty and the absence of more effective institutional arrangements adapting the Union to enlargement cannot be an excuse for inaction. Rather, ALL THE PROPOSALS ARE TO BE IMPLEMENTED WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THE EXISTING TREATIES [writer's emphais].

'As President Barroso rightly points out, our citizens, whether as workers or entrepreneurs, consumers or private citizens – expect, and deserve, a response to these issues. In his words, “there is a very strong appetite for action”. I agree. But we now need to match these words with real action which reaches EU citizens. Concentrating the Union’s budgetary allocations on this priority will be a first step laying the groundwork for future action.

WHO DOES JAMES ELLES THINK HE IS WORKING FOR?

[Apuleia]

URL of Hannan's blog, please?

[Denis Cooper]

Of course there's been no change of heart - this is just a necessary delay of a few months. Which will turn into a delay of a few years. ("If you remember, we only said before the next European elections in 2009", "Please, let's not make the terrible mistake of rocking the boat in the run up to a general election when at last we have a real chance of getting rid of this awful government"). And then it will turn into an indefinite delay.

Meanwhile, the EU project rolls on, day by day, inexorably pursuing "ever closer union", and even implementing large parts of a rejected Constitution without any noticeable opposition from the MPs we pay to provide an official Opposition (who claim to be opposed to that Constitution) and certainly without that referendum on transferring more competences to the EU which Hague talks about.

(Oh, but then of course he's only talking about transfers through the front door - "treaty changes" - not through the back door of agreements between the EU member states outside the present EU treaties.)

For almost half a century the Conservative Party leadership has been pulling the wool over the eyes of its ordinary members - ever since Harold Macmillan took over from Eden in 1957. See Chapter 6 of Lindsay Jenkins' book "Britain held Hostage" for Macmillan's previous links with Jean Monnet and his activities as a founding member of "the small European League for Economic Co-operation (ELEC) set up by Count Van Zeeland in 1947 expressly to introduce political union by the economic back door."

And out of loyalty to the leadership and the party, many of those members have in their turn been complicit in pulling the wool over the eyes of the electorate.

Now it really is "make your mind up time". The EU project has reached the stage when you can no longer fudge the issue, or disguise it with flowery language and misleading figures of speech. You have to choose.

So, come on, which is it to be. The British state, or the European state? The British Conservative Party, or the European People's Party? The "and theory" of Conservatism can't apply here - it has to be either one, or the other. So decide, and then be honest about that decision.

[Anne Palmer]

So the European Union claims another victory. When will Members of Parliament remember their sworn allegiance is to this country, to this Country alone and to make their own laws, not just apply laws instigated on the Continent of Europe? The people are not with the Government, they are not with the Lib-Dems and they are most certainly not with the Conservatives after this pathetic effort. We want out of European Union before it swallows us up whole. Why do the Conservatives want to be governed FOREVER by a socialist government in Brussels because that is what it will be?

[Jon "I know the Truth" Gale]

Almost everyone in these comments wants to leave the EPP. For a variety of reasons and levels of euroscepticism. Personally I want to withdraw from the EU, but think this is a good step in the right direction.

They differences are between those who hate Cameron and/or are paranoid about Europe and see every hour that passes and rumour of a setback as proof that DC is the most Europhile politician since ...well, ever and has betrayed his pledge.

And those who realise creating a new international political grouping takes time and negotiations and are waiting for Hague's announcement at the end of July.

Lets not forget the pro-europe people were saying DC would never find anyone to form a new group with - He not only found allies, but the problem is that two allies have fallen out with each other.

Hague said on BBC Breakfast this morning (on the sofa) that they would still meet their pledge and there would be an announcement by the end of July.

After a quick look at the Euro Parliaments calender, you can see there are no sessions in August, so I expect the new group to be in place by the new session on 4th September.

That seems reasonable to me, anyone else?

[christina speight]

Gareth -"Cameron made his EPP pledge long before the hustings started" Pull the other one chum. Nobody had heard him say so. Time and Place? But the moment he said that under pressure the message was around the party like greaswd lightning. It could well have swung the election. For the majority of the party who are anti-EU rallied to him over other things.

It seems like Cllr Lindley, Graeme and Gareth are more interested in a punch-up than thinking about the subject..

[christina speight]

Gareth -"Cameron made his EPP pledge long before the hustings started" Pull the other one chum. Nobody had heard him say so. Time and Place? But the moment he said that under pressure the message was around the party like greased lightning. It could well have swung the election. For the majority of the party who are anti-EU rallied to him over other things.

It seems like Cllr Lindley, Graeme and Gareth are more interested in a punch-up than thinking about the subject..

[Cllr Iain Lindley]

*yawn*

[Mark Fulford]

The price of Camerson’s support from ardent Eurosceptics was this promise, and it was a very good deal for him. He was able to barter something very valuable, critical support, for something fairly worthless. The only way the deal can go bad is if Cameron fails to deliver, but that would be so obviously disastrous that it can’t possibly be on the cards. My hope for William Hague is that this ‘muddle’ isn’t the result of shenanigans.

[Adam]

Christina,

if you want to think about the subject, ponder who the Conservatives should sit with instead. They need to find partners from at least 4 other countries. To even begin to have any say they probably need to total upwards of 50 MEPs.

What the Conservatives cannot do is simply sit out by themselves. There are severe financial and political penalties to this. The important work of the Parliament is done in Committees, not on the chamber floor - not being part of a group locks you out of those committees.

Of course if you believe the likes of Hannan, it should all be a doddle (indeed supposedly it was all already planned by IDS), if that's so - why has Hague (not known for his EU enthusiasm) found it so difficult?

[malcolm]

What financial and political penalties Adam? What could possibly be so bad for Britain for the leader of our party to renege aon a promise? Please spell it out for me because I genuinely don't know.

[Richard]

Could we cease the slanging match please?

I think the idea of free trade with NAFTA is an excellent idea. It would expose the European social democracies to the full blast of a proper free market economy and they wouldn't be able to force the USA to swallow a load of interventionist regulations to minimise the impact.

[Andrew Woodman]

Financial Penalities? Since ROger Helmer was expelled from the EPP, he's recieved more funding and speaking time. The only financial penalities seem to be for those MEPs with thir snouts in the trough, and with the nonsense coming out of the EU, is being part of the committees that help create and ratify these laws a good thing!!

[Denis Cooper]

"What the Conservatives cannot do is simply sit out by themselves. There are severe financial and political penalties to this."

Not according to Roger Helmer:

http://www.rogerhelmer.com/halfmillion.asp

"My experience as an independent member for nine months is that I have more funding, more speaking time, more staff support, and more access to parliamentary facilities than I had within the EPP. There is a strong case to be made that we should also have more influence in the parliament as a cohesive, independent Conservative group. The EPP would be forced to pay attention and negotiate with us, as they are already showing signs of doing now that they know we're leaving. Previously, as a troublesome minority within the EPP, they were free to ignore us. David Cameron is right. Conservative MEPs have everything to gain by leaving the EPP."

[malcolm]

It is interesting that those who criticise the majority of the posters on this site for advocating EPP withdrawal (Gareth ad nauseam)or go on other blogs and refer to us as the 'Tory Taliban'(Kingbongo)seem unwilling or unable to spell out ANY benefits of continued membership.For about the tenth time, why?

[Richard]

Incidently, why just free trade with the USA? Why not call for the EU to remove all trade barriers with China, India and other fast-growing economies?

[andrew duffin]

"im voting UKIP now and hope cameron loses."

"And all that that will achieve is a continuation of this dreadful Labour Government."

Whereas voting Tory will result in a Cameron government whose policies are in all respects identical to those of Blair.

Forgive me if I fail to see any difference between the two outcomes.

[Selsdon Man]

Dan Hannan is a regular contributor to this site but there has been so sign of of him on this subject. Come on Dan, don't be shy!

[Chris]

Incidently, why just free trade with the USA? Why not call for the EU to remove all trade barriers with China, India and other fast-growing economies?
Its probably linked due to the fact that in eastern europe they still have a decent sized manufacturing industry. Opening up the markest to devloping nations would destroy their industries, as the sweatshops would easily undercut them, just as they currently undercut British business.

[Gareth]

"Gareth -"Cameron made his EPP pledge long before the hustings started" Pull the other one chum. Nobody had heard him say so."

Once again Christina, you fail to let the facts get in the way of your 'argument'. Cameron made his EPP pledge after Liam Fox made his (on 29th September 2005). Indeed, at the time, he was criticised by some for jumping on the Fox bandwagon.

[Anne Palmer]

There really isn't time to wait around while Mr Cameron makes up his mind "for sure" what he wants to do. Denis Cooper is right when he wrote, "Now it really is "make your mind up time". The EU project has reached the stage when you can no longer fudge the issue, or disguise it with flowery language and misleading figures of speech. You have to choose. So, come on, which is it to be. The British state, or the European state? The British Conservative Party, or the European People's Party? The "and theory" of Conservatism can't apply here - it has to be either one, or the other. So decide, and then be honest about that decision.

We are fighting for our Country, we are fighting for our own government to make ALL our laws. Our politicians are going to remember that we have our own Constitution and it is that Constitution we are going to observe and obey and no other.

If no major political party of this country will lead the people, the people will lead the way for themselves and that would be a disaster. It really is time to put Country before PARTY and coming out of the EPP would have been a very small start. It is time for MP's to start to earn all the money they expect to pick up, paid by the people of this Country before the well runs dry, or, before the majority of people realise that MP's are getting money for simply applying legislation/laws made by others on the continent rather than our own.

[Gareth]

"It is interesting that those who criticise the majority of the posters on this site for advocating EPP withdrawal (Gareth ad nauseam) ... seem unwilling or unable to spell out ANY benefits of continued membership.For about the tenth time, why?"

Malcolm,

Firstly, it's unfortunate that hearing a view contrary to your own induces nausea (although the knowledge that I have that effect upon you spurs me on no end).

Secondly, I have made the point several times but will make it again for your nauseous benefit. (1) The voters don't care about it, so why cause a internal row about it? (2) It makes us look Euro-obsessed once again. (3) The people we may have to sit with include some pretty distasteful characters who promise no end of opportunities for embarrassing us.

I don't however, intend to fall into the trap of being an obsessive about this. If it has to be done, for God's sake do it quickly and get the row over and done with.

[Deputy Editor]

URL of Hannan's blog, please?

Posted by: Apuleia | June 07, 2006 at 13:11

Hi Apuleia, I don't know of a blog but his main website is http://www.hannan.co.uk