The Unfair Kingdom?

"Brown spends 22% more on the Scots than on the English" will crown a story in tomorrow's Business newspaper.  The Business' Allister Heath has gained access to an analysis from Williams de Broë of 2004-2005 public expenditure data.  The analysis reveals that the taxpayer spends £6,623 per person in England but £886 more on every person in Wales... £1,473 more on every person in Scotland... and £2,275 more on every person in Northern Ireland.

This imbalance will only underline the reluctance of voters to accept a Scottish Prime Minister.   Only last week an ICM survey for BBC1's Politics Show found that 52% thought it “wrong” that a Scottish MP should become Prime Minister in the post-devolution-to-Edinburgh UK.  The number thinking it wrong rises to 59% in the South East of England.  This may reflect the fact that public spending on the average person in the South East is only £5,837.  The English number of £6,623 hides wide regional variations.  Londoners receive £7,873 per person.  The North East gets £7,531 and the North West £7,217.  Allister Heath's conclusion is spot on:

"The figures will fuel fears that Brown’s public sector spending binge is failing to achieve better health-care, education or life expectancy as there is no positive relationship between regional levels of public spending and outcomes. They will also confirm that most of Britain is now even more dependent on government spending than social-democratic countries such as France but that the southern tip of England is less dependent on state handouts than almost all other rich economies."

Comments

[Oberon Houston]

The implications of this data could be huge. If enough political traction can be found to redress the balance here, the the obvious winners are the Conservative Party.

As long as Labour votes in the regions and up North are bought at the expense of the English (in particular the Southeast, as there is also discrepancies withing England itself), they will have a support base built on undemoctatic principles (no taxation without representation etc. etc.)

If we can think of a way to end this, Conservatism will flourish.

[PassingThru]

Nearly £9k in Northern Ireland! That is truly disgusting. Thats like Nearly £30k per household. If ever there was an advert that we can spend money better than government, this is it.

My mind is set. Offload the baggage. England can do better without the Communist states.

[Julian Morrison]

From my perspective as an extreme libertarian, even in England that's about £6500 too much. Compared to that, the regional unfairness amounts to quibbling over detail.

[PassingThru]

The disheartening thing is, and i certainly dont use the word in a universal sense, is that this is a sort of fiscal apartheid, with the majority carrying the minority. While to an extent this is acceptable (although i personally think taxation should be confined to as few as possible), what is not is that we dont have equal rights. Specifically the rights to certain public services, and specifically those students and pensioners in Scotland are entitled to.
Quite frankly, that something as fundamental as this can go unquestioned is a travesty.

We are paying for services we arent entitled to.

[Disillusioned]

A good reason to support Scottish independence...(and to scupper Brown's desperation to get the keys to No.10). At the last election the Conservatives got more votes in England than any other political party – and England evidently picks up the bill for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. As an English Conservative it’s becoming somewhat harder not to support English independence.

In all seriousness I suppose Northern Ireland is a somewhat exceptional case explaining its disturbing figures. Scotland however along with Wales and the north of England don’t really have any exceptional excuse. It’s bad enough that Brown has taken the credit for the booming economy he inherited from the Conservatives but it’s worse still that Brown has ruined it by presiding over cancerous growth in the public sector at gigantic expense with negligible benefit.

[Chad]

I guess if we hadn't raped Scotland of its oil wealth then we might just have reason to complain.

[Disillusioned]

Although it's not as if Scottish nationalists discovered the oil.

[Chad]

I completely agree, but the way Tories jump on these stories then question why they are not doing well "oop North" just makes me raise my eyes to the ceiling.

The last time I checked, the Tories official name was the Conservative and Unionist party. You would expect Tories to be blind to the individual countries if they are passionate unionists and not really a narrow England-only party.

Surely we have a moral responsibility to redistribute wealth to the poorer areas within our union?

We need to reduce the ridiculously high level of taxation imposed by Gordon Brown not bitch about which country is getting the most.

[The ghost of Edward I]

I'd like to see the Jocks quibble over the oil if England keeps the Royal Navy.

[TC]

People should make more of a fuss about Scotland's post-devolution position. For me the West Lothian question is a fundamental and outrageous fault in our supposed democracy, and should have been addressed years ago. The discrepancies in public spending only underline the way in which Labour purchase their votes with the taxpayers' money, and perpetuate the cycle of dependency that may be the root cause of our greatest social problems. Grant Scotland complete independence and be rid of them.

[Disillusioned]

Devolution in Scotland and Wales should be abandoned, hold referendums – Scotland and Wales can remain fully part of the UK or declare independence.

[Della]

I recall that the Scottish Conservative Party were recently offering the Scots a 3% reduction in their taxes, because they said, it would make them more competetive than England. Cameron supported this.
Exactly why would anyone in England think that the Conservatives (and there isn't an English conservative party) would stand up for equal rights for the English?
Cameron stabs the English in the back, in the hopes that the Scots will elect him.
NOTHING will make the Conservatives do the decent thing. They have let England down and will continue to do so.

[Alan T]

"Grant Scotland complete independence and be rid of them."

Since Scotland isn't a colony I don't think England will be 'granting' Scotland anything. Why such animosity? It's not like most Scots who vote Labour actually understand the unfairness of the current set up so direct your frustration at the likes of Gordon Brown and the Scottish Raj and not the Scottish people because that's just petty.

No the Scot Nats didn't discover Oil but by all accounts Scotland would be much wealthier with control over even some, if not all, of North Sea Oil and the revenues from oil have plugged many a gap in the books of English/UK govts so this griping about Scots getting a tad more funding at the moment is really out of context. Scotland has subsidized the rest of the UK for years. I would lose no sleep over Scotland raising and spending all of it's own revenue because we'd be financially better off than any Barnett Formula hand out could make us.

There needs to be a positive case made for the redressing the inequalities England faces instead of sneering in the vain of 'England can do better without the Communist states.'

Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales need an injection of conservative/liberal reforms just as much as England.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Devolution in Scotland and Wales should be abandoned, hold referendums – Scotland and Wales can remain fully part of the UK or declare independence.<<<<
Rather the powers devolved to Scotland need to be transferred to Local Government with a Council of Scotland formed as a sort of grand meeting to decide elements of Scottish Law, English Law needs to be split into English Law and Welsh Law and similar changes need to occur in England, Wales and Ulster to those in Scotland; no power sharing fixes in Ulster and no full parliaments\assemblies just a grand meeting of Councils to decide English, Scottish, Welsh and Ulster Law respectively, and a substantial reduction in the number of politicians - a third or less of the current number.

[Disillusioned]

You make some good points Alan T. The inequalities that England faces do need to be redressed without sneering but since it’s in Labour’s interests to maintain the status quo – and since that very status quo might help keep Labour in power at the next election frustrations are inevitable. Devolution I also feel will increasingly become incompatible with the idea of a Scottish Prime Minister and Scottish ministers, it’s difficult to justify John Reid representing a Scottish constituency and having many powers that solely affect England.

Scots won’t go back on devolution and probably don’t want independence so I don’t know what the way forward is. I think eventually the relationship between Scotland and the UK will develop into some kind of ‘free association’ whereby Scotland enjoys autonomy in all of its affairs – except defence and foreign affairs. And I’d guess such an arrangement would give the Scottish Parliament far greater powers and Scottish MPs would perhaps no longer sit at Westminster. But the status quo isn’t going to change when so many senior politicians are Scottish...

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales need an injection of conservative/liberal reforms just as much as England.<<<<
They don't need Liberal reforms, in fact from the perspective of social policy they need de-liberalisation after a century of liberal reforms.

[Will]

Are we offering a different distribution ? I've not seen such a policy yet.

[Yet Another Anon]

Maybe some experimentation with not only Faith Based Schools and Hospitals but perhaps Faith Based Marriage systems as well, why not allow organisations such as churches, mosques, synagogues, gudwara's etc.... to formulate their own marriage, divorce and abortion laws within a framework of limits set nationally and people when getting married would do so with one organisation or another and it be registered under the rules of that organisation and administered according to the rules applicable for that community.

Surely this could be the beginning of introducing devolution from geographically based government itself and a move towards more family values.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

Northern Ireland and large areas of Scotland, in addition to most of the North East are poster children for the minimal state. Why do these people continue voting for socialism? Do they spend decades wondering when the great change is going to come? If they want to know what socialism ultimately achieves, this is it. Isn't it wonderful?

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Why do these people continue voting for socialism?<<<<
In the case of Ulster - the Parliament at Stormont was closed by the Heath Government and remained closed, in recent years a solution imposing power sharing has been forced on the people of Ulster by Westminster Government.

Simple - abolish all requirement for power sharing and allow Ulster politicians to form their own administrations and stop allowing Sinn Fein\IRA to bomb their way to negociations.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

ect ect administered according to the rules applicable for that community "The Wicker Man" comes to mind. Perhaps you should start costing the refugee camps we'd have to set up at the borders of such perfect communities? Anyway, surely "national guidelines" would limit such communities? Shouldn't they be allowed to stone adulterers? Or fortune tellers? This is if the fortune tellers haven't skipped town days before, obviously.

[Maria]

Raped Scotland of its oil wealth? Rubbish - we bailed Scotland out financially at the time of Union, when it had bankrupted itself, and it gained tremendously through the Union.

The oil is British until the Union breaks, and even then some will be in English waters. I don't see why things should be "Scottish" when it suits Scotland and "British" when it suits Scotland.

Scots MPs won't give up their stranglehold on England as their voice on the world stage would be reduced to a squeak.

We deserve to be free.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Perhaps you should start costing the refugee camps we'd have to set up at the borders of such perfect communities?<<<<
It would be within limits, a marriage would be registered as being with a particular organisation, organisations would be vetted to screen out terrorist organisations and political undesirables then a framework would be set and each organisation accepted for registration would have to operate within the rules or suffer the consequences which would include imprisonment, fines and in the case of illegal stonings - execution for what would be murder.

Naturally there could be seperate Scotland, England, Wales and Ulster areas for registration and each area could set it's own framework within a national framework.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>The oil is British until the Union breaks, and even then some will be in English waters. I don't see why things should be "Scottish" when it suits Scotland and "British" when it suits Scotland.<<<<
It's largely academic as the North Sea Oil and Gas fields are rapidly running out of oil that it is economically viable to extract, in fact more recent finds have mostly been either in the Irish Sea, as I understand it there was what was the largest ever inland find in the South West of England a few years back.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

A good part of the 2009(?) Conservative Party Platform would be a pledge to take pressure off the south east and work hard to encourage economic growth in other areas of the UK like, the West Midlands, Manchester, Leeds, Hull, Newcastle ect ect. Stop moaning about the inequalities and get the whole country up to speed!

[Gavin Ayling]

The nations of the UK should be offered independence at regular intervals. In the meantime England should be given a parliament like Scotland's. It really is that simple!

[Alan T]

"They don't need Liberal reforms, in fact from the perspective of social policy they need de-liberalisation after a century of liberal reforms."

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'liberal'. Call me kooky but I think libconnery is the way to go; all the caution & common sense of the good conservative and all the imagination/tolerance of the good liberal, in fashioning policy, seems like a good combo to me. I refer mainly to things I think most 'conservatives' could rally round like welfare reform and other market oriented reforms when I say liberal though and to not pc driven meltdown of some of our institutions and values.

I think the imbalance that has been created in the constitution is probably not rectifiable though to be fair Great Britain never really became an all encompassing Union inspiring consistent loyalty; so 'the Union' was never what it could have been, done right. English, Scottish, Welsh identity/institutions pertained to varying degrees over the years and I think the drift towards de facto independence for the constituent elements of GB/the UK will continue, not all to the detriment of UK residents, probably resulting in de facto independence for each area, possibly with common defence/border cotrol arrangements,common currency and the Monarchy remaining areas of cooperation. Though it's unclear if even those things will continue to be shared by the British nations (Scotland being a tad more republican for example). I imagine Northern Ireland and Wales to an extent will be left to react to whatever happens between Scotland and England.

You're right, Dillusioned, that MPs for Scottish constituencies being PM or Ministers( for areas of English/Welsh only issues), or even leaders/shaddow ministers, in the post devolution era becomes patently impossible to justify.

There needs to be a debate, hopefully one with positive ideas, about what comes next. For my part, while I think the British Isles would benefit from Eng, Sco & Wales competing with each other and having more independence I think it would be a shame for all cooperation, and for the idea of 'Britain' and 'Britishness', to completely fade away, even if it does take a rather different form- perhaps as secondary focal point- in
the future. We share what I see as a 'British' or 'Anglosphere' culture and I wouldn't want Scotland (where I reside) to miss out on the benefits of being part of a bigger english speaking culture and able to participate in British institutions like ConservativeHome.com and the diverse British media ;)

[Maria]

We need parliaments for England and Wales, a federal UK. Uneven devolution has created a lot of the problems - not least by landing England with undemocratic regional assemblies, the West Lothian Question and the prospect of the end of our democratically accountable Shires, with no referendum.

Heaven knows how much this government spends on new layers of unelected government.

A federal UK or independence for the UK nations is the way forward.

And England's parliament need not be situated in London! How about a nice location in the Midlands or North of the country?

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>And England's parliament need not be situated in London! How about a nice location in the Midlands or North of the country?<<<<
In fact given the fact that sea levels are rising around the South and East of England and groundwater levels rising, and that the Houses of Parliament are elaborate in ornamentation on the outside to the point that they cost a fortune to maintain why not build an alternative (preferably to take far fewer members along with a reduction in a third or more in numbers in both Houses) and then sell the old one which can be used as a museum and financed by charging for entry.

In fact if the capital was going to be in the South East then Luton or Farnborough would be better locations, how about Buxton, Macclesfield, Sheffield or Stoke-on-Trent as a possible location for the new capital?

[Alan T]

I think I agree, Yet Another Anon, with the non geographic devolution, to individuals/organisations, thing.If health and education would benefit from diversity then why not marriage too? You family values junkies might just find it works in your favour.

As for your other point about Oil running out. Not strictly speaking accuarate. There's as much Oil left in the what is thought would be 'Scottish waters' as has already been extracted- so that's potentially a bonanza for the Scottish economy. The SNP have an attractive policy for a Scottish Oil Fund for Future Generations, on the Norwegian Model, investing the tax revenues to be drawn on for infrastructure/public services projects, which is really the kind of thing a Scottish Conservative party should be coming up with.

Henry, Scots keep voting for socialism for lots of reasons one of which being that there is no credible/attractive centre right political force in Scotland. The Scots Tories sit tight hoping they can ride on the coat tails of the British party, meaning that libcon ideas are not disseminated in Scotland.

Maria, the Oil debate isn't rubbish. International precedent dictates that a significant portion of the North Sea would belong to Scotland.The English can be just of guilty of being English or British when it suits- more so I would argue. Anyone remember how the British Olympic skiing medalist, in 2002, suddenly became Scottish in the English media when he was stripped of his medal on drug charges but the Scottish Curling success in the same year was naturally hailed as a British one?!

The Union, Maria, was created because it was mutually convenient/necessary for Sco & Eng. There have been benefits and drawbacks for Sco & Eng over the last 300 years but on balance it's Sco that suffers the raw end of the deal at the moment.

As for your point about Scotland on the world stage. Scotland suffers by being in England's shaddow currently. It can't promote it's on interests through its own embassies or conclude its own international treaties to suit its needs, so losing 'military' influence is really a small price to pay to acquire these other powers.

[William]

Scotland suffers by being in England's shaddow currently. It can't promote it's on interests through its own embassies or conclude its own international treaties to suit its needs, writes Alan T.

Many British Embassies and Consulates are also being wound down, as we become absorbed into the EU Constitutional moves of amalgamating all the EU countries in to single EU Embassies. If Scotland manages to open any, could England come on board as a junior partner? I think we'd do better with you!!

As for the Oil, the Oil Companies have stopped trying in the UK. They will not come back until Gordon Brown is out of the picture. They run all the risks of exploration, contructing the rigs, pipelines, seeing off low price phases, and then when the pay-off eventually comes, GB is there with his money scoop leaving the companies with less return than they projected. They are completely sick of the unpredictability of the GB regime. He's lost the UK millions and Scotland's economy has been badly hit.

If Scotland would send better quality to Westminster, we'd all be better off.

A growing Scottish Conservative Party will follow on well once Cameron has got the North of England strategy right. As I remember it, Scots like the colour of money, and a resurgent private sector will be good - perfect material for Conservatives, once the Scots tire of endless Socialism.

Maybe Cameron will get his kilt on next. He's done icebergs and bikes. He obviously prefers it cool around the nether regions.

[Chad]

Gavin and Henry make great points, both in essence about restoring balance.

We need an English Parliament and we need to spread wealth and prosperity across the union to stop the overpopulation around London etc.

Creating a local tax (whether added to income tax or a local sales tax) to make counties fully self-funded would also enable them to compete with one another for business and thus staff, helping to spread industry, reduce the load on transport, reduce pollution from commuting cars, reduce commuting time and increase quality time etc.

At a time when the South is having enormous problems with the most basic things like access to water and house prices have moved beyond a new generation, now is the time to create a real strategy to stop the polarisation of wealth around London.

All conservatives will appreciate that it is competition that is essential to bring efficiency and balance.

And England's parliament need not be situated in London! How about a nice location in the Midlands or North of the country?
We don't need an expensive new building. Just make the HoC become the English parliament, then make the HoL an elected (Full-life time elected on a regional basis) national legislature to oversee the four national parliaments and control uk issues.

We should work positively to strengthen the union despite the imbalance caused by Labour, not weaken it because of them.

Of course the imbalance leads to frustration. We must restore balance, then move forward as a united kingdom.

[Mark]

England needs an English Parliament, what England doesn't need is Scotland.

[Bobby Lawson]

Sir Malcolm Rifkind once said that, 'One Nation Conservatives are the only electable element of the Conservative party' and this blog has proved that the free-market obssessed right of the party are completely unelectable. Thatcher believed in free-market economics as the means to an end but not the end in itself. There is more to a nation than capitalism. Right-wing Conservatives often accuse those who do not share their beliefs as being 'economically illiterate'. I would go further and say that free-market ideologues are historically and culturally illiterate in return. If like me you believe the regional disparities need to be addressed then it should be about lifting the North and Scotland out of dependency and giving them hope, not smashing the Union to declare an independent state of London. What a strange lot you all really are!

[Oberon Houston]

The debate over 'Scottish Oil' is gradually going to become historical as production declines. Pragmatically, once revenues decline to the point where any subsidisation outstrips oil taxation, then the political implications will become gradually more important. I expect this to be only a decade away.

What the numbers today tell us however is that Labour is directing funds to supporters and increasing the North-South divide as a result. As Conservatives, we know that the best way to encourage growth in the North is for them to dump the socialist baggage and adopt a more market led system which encourages personal achievement. But as long as these people are trapped by Labour in dependancy, the stagnation (compared to the southeast) will continue.
The simple way to avoid this imbalance would be to distribute funds evenly and allow more local decision making on how to allocate them. Areas of depravation could be given extra help with specific tax breaks for businesses. This idea would never get Labour support, because it would release all their supporters from the trap.

[Oberon Houston]

Bobby, there is some merit to your comments. I agree that some of the comments on this thread are a bit mind boggling considering which Party many claim to support, and then go on to say that they want to jettison Wales, NI and Scotland! We need to find a way to strengthen the Union, not dismantle it when things aren't going well. Again, getting back to your comments Bobby, many free-marketeers think everything of value has a £ attached.

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

Bobby you're my new hero! couldn't have put it better myself!

[Ted]

Did anyone hear the BBC R4 prog last night on the future of the right - was in a car so was able to barrack the panel in privacy.
What did get me annoyed was that the touchstone of conservatism from the right was tax cuts and little else - Bobby's comments on everything being viewed through the prism of cost. I'm not saying that lower taxation isn't a good goal but that we are about more than just economics.

I don't want Scotland to become a foreign country or Wales. There are issues about how we make devolution work, how we look at where tax-payers money is best applied. Lets start by saying we are Unionists and we want to make the Union work - and look for equitable solutions to the issues that devolution has bought out.

A good start would be by re-vitalising Scots conservatism and really put an effort into getting seats back there and in Wales. I think the 40 year experiment in having the Scots party fully integrated with the English Conservatives has been a failure. Its perhaps good that we aren't seen as the party of Scotlands Orange Order any more but let's recognise Scotland is nationalist but not necessarily separatist. Conservatives can be both Scots and Unionists; English & Unionists etc.

After all when the parties were separate we could still select Alex Douglas-Hume from the Scots Party as PM.

There is a positive agenda we can put forward rather than the narrow anti views some posers adopt.

[malcolm]

I would agree wholeheartedly with Bobby Lawson.I suspect there have been a few trolls visiting this thread.

[Editor]

There are injustices in the current spending distributions but I agree that we should be proud of the Union and all it has achieved. Conservatives must protect the Union and not sacrifice it for the sake of a few hundred pounds.

[Huntarian]

..’Scots keep voting for socialism for lots of reasons one of which being that there is no credible/attractive centre right political force in Scotland. The Scots Tories sit tight hoping they can ride on the coat tails of the British party, meaning that libcon ideas are not disseminated in Scotland.’

You are right about that, except we don’t hope to ride on British coat tails anymore, we are almost at the point of giving up. Unless we do something here in Scotland soon, oblivion beckons if we are not there already.

In fairness to DC he came to our Scottish Conference in March and told us robustly that we were free to offer tax cuts and consider moving towards fiscal autonomony and a whole raft of other ideas. The problem is that we are less than twelve months away from an election here, and we still have no policies to speak of; a slate of politicians who are largely interested in hanging around to improve their pension deal, rather than becoming a credible right of centre political force, and a leader who emerged rather than being elected, and who has since made self deprecation into an art form, but has achieved little else by way of leaving a mark on the political map.
It is quite clear that the spending gap between the SE and Scotland cannot be sustained nor can the 55% of Scotland’s GDP that is in the public sector. This is the old fashioned Brown style socialism. Make the electorate depend on the state for its livelihood and it will keep you in power for ever. In the immediate post war years it was low rent council housing that shackled impoverished Scots to Labour, now it’s a highly paid and unproductive public sector job and pension—the turkeys won’t vote for Christmas theory.
The time for DC to act is now, recent by- elections show clearly that we are flat lining in Scotland-16% (as we have been doing since 2003) whereas we are making real progress elsewhere.
Labour is in serious trouble here as the recent by elections show, but the main beneficiaries are the nationalists and the Lib dems. There is a real market in Scotland as elsewhere for a right of centre party that opposes Nationalism and Socialism offers a smaller state, greater accountability and fiscal responsibility and devolves power back to the people.
The Scots as a nation are one of the most capable and innovative peoples in the world, and could easily rise to the challenge that fiscal autonomy would present. The present Scots Tory leader is obsessed with the Scottish addiction to methadone. She would do better addressing herself to the Scottish addiction to subsidy; that is what is strangling economic growth here and the fact that Scotland continues to export its best brains, since they see their homeland mired in the collectivist Socialism of Marx , Hardie and Brown.
We Scots have nothing to fear from the rise of English nationalism, rather we should encourage it.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

I've always considered myself British, the union flag is my flag. Well done Bobby for putting it much better than I ever could.

[briank]

In my [long] life I've known many Scots -[particularly in the armed forces]- and like them. Volatile, passionate and loyal to a degree in my experience. And Scotland has played a huge part in the history of the UK. Whether the current situation is unfair and biased in favour of the Scots [and I think it is] is not the most important thing. The point is that it seen to be so - and increasingly. This is almost totally due the actions of this thoroughly arrogant, bad and incompetent government. We are ruled overwhelmingly by Scots who have virtually all the main heavy weight Departments of State. I have reached the point where i believe the conservatives should pledge, if elected, to offer two choices to Scotland and Wales in a referendum. Full independance or full members of the Union. I would be sorry, indeed, if the chose to leave the Union - but the presents situation becomes more disgraceful every day. And if independance is chosen it leaves open for the future the possibility of arrangement or alignment on mutually beneficial terms.

[Richard]

I am a staunch Unionist opposed to the breakup of the UK but as a South-Eastener I don't like being leached off of either. It's all very well saying "maintain the Union" but there is growing anger over the way that government funds are being distributed and this has to be dealt with. It is shocking that some parts of the UK have Continental European proportions of Government expenditure.

[United Irelander]

The British government spent over £100m on the Stormont Assembly in NI when it wasn't being used.

NI is the problem. If you want equality for British people then offload the non-British white elephant.

[malcolm]

If you're going to be a troll 'Scotch Ponce' try to be interesting,if you can't be interesting try at least to be funny.If you can't be either (and let's face it you can't) why don't you go forth and multiply?
Might also be an idea if you're going to write posts like the above to not post under such a moronic pseudonym.It does show a complete lack of guts doesn't it?

[Editor]

I deleted the nonsense of Scotch Ponce Malcolm.

[deborah]

I grew up in the North surrounded by people who saw all the investment going into the South, resented it and blamed it on the Tories.
Now I live in the South and find that everyone is complaining about Prescott (now Kelly) concreting over the South East and over-heating the local economy.
Bobby and Henry Whitmarsh are right. We need to take pressure off the South East and encourage economic growth in the North. to bring people on side. It's a win-win situation.

[Oberon Houston]

I have got to say, I find this debate to be hugely interesting (when taken seriously).

That is a very good point Deborah. There are justifiable reasons for the political persuasions of Northerners apart from the bribery of Labour, the perception that Thatchers was persecuting them was also very real in the North and will take a lot of effort to rub out.

[Oberon Houston]

ps, at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I wrote an article on "My Platform" last year on the subject of Scotland if your interested....

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2005/11/oberon_houston.html#comments

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>NI is the problem. If you want equality for British people then offload the non-British white elephant.<<<<
A majority in Ulster remain opposed to the 6 counties joining into the Irish Republic, and the Irish Republic doesn't want to acquire a population dominated on the one hand by Sinn Fein who have an agenda of turning Eire into a Marxist State, they don't want an area where organised crime is rife and where a majority of the population are hostile to them, if the 6 counties were simply handed over to Eire there would be a Civil War in Ireland apart from anything else.

The problem is the UK Government's insistence on the administration involving power sharing - they need to stop requiring parties to register as Unionist or Nationalist - indeed there is no reason why political parties in some cases shouldn't contain both, the main parties at Westminster wouldn't like it if they had to register as either Pro-EU or Pro-Independence, why factionalise things beyond how they are now while possibly trying to force through a government with no support inside Ulster, the governments attitude to Ulster is Communist.

[Mrs Marilyn Warburton]

I THINK DC SHOT HIMSELF IN HIS VERY WEALTHY FOOT WHEN HE TALKED OF HAPPINESS HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN HW WOULD BE RIDICULED ASND MISREPRESENTED

I WAS HOWEVER MIGHTILY IMPRESSED WITH THE UNPROUNCEABLE DEPUTY PARTY CHAIRMAN ON QUESTIONTIME THIS THURSDAY IF WE USED HER AND BORIS MORE OFTEN WE WOULD BE DOING EVEN BETTER!! I WANT TO HEAR DC APOLOGISE FOR SUPPORTING THE ILLEGAL INVASION OF IRAQ AND TO PROPOSE MAKING WINDMILLS AND SOLAR MORE AFFORDABLE TO ALL PARTICULARLY PENSIONERS IT WOULD BE MORE LONG TERM THAN THE WINTER FUEL PAYMENT

DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY READ THIS? I AM A PARTY MEMBER OF 60 WITH GOOD POLICY IDEAS WHO NOW VOTES ON ISSUES SO DON'T RELY ON MY 'WHITE SMOKE'!!

[Mrs Marilyn Warburton]

I THINK DC SHOT HIMSELF IN HIS VERY WEALTHY FOOT WHEN HE TALKED OF HAPPINESS HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN He WOULD BE RIDICULED AND MISREPRESENTED

I WAS HOWEVER MIGHTILY IMPRESSED WITH THE UNPROUNCEABLE DEPUTY PARTY CHAIRMAN ON QUESTIONTIME THIS THURSDAY IF WE USED HER AND BORIS MORE OFTEN WE WOULD BE DOING EVEN BETTER!! I WANT TO HEAR DC APOLOGISE FOR SUPPORTING THE ILLEGAL INVASION OF IRAQ AND TO PROPOSE MAKING WINDMILLS AND SOLAR MORE AFFORDABLE TO ALL PARTICULARLY PENSIONERS IT WOULD BE MORE LONG TERM THAN THE WINTER FUEL PAYMENT I WOULD ALSO LIKE HIM TO RESTORE THE RIGHT OF PROTEST AROUND THE WESTMINSTER AREA

DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY READ THIS? I AM A PARTY MEMBER OF 60 WITH GOOD POLICY IDEASWHO SHOULD BE SITTING ON YOUR PANEL/THINKTANK WHO NOW VOTES ON ISSUES SO DON'T RELY ON MY 'WHITE SMOKE'!!

[Robbie]

Any idea how much the Government would save by limiting spending in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to the English figure of £6632? Thereby allowing tax cuts without any reduction in services in England. If the Scotish don't like the cut in their grant then they have the freedom to vary their income tax rate by up to 3 pence in the pound. Alternatively (although unlikely with a Lib-Lab Scotish Executive) it would force public spending to be spent more efficiently in Scotland.

[Iain]

"The implications of this data could be huge. If enough political traction can be found to redress the balance here, the the obvious winners are the Conservative Party."

Oberon Houston, 'could' is the operative word, unfortunately the Conservative party leadership seem to be too stupid to realise this. In the last few years they have completely failed to raise the issue, let alone seek to embarrass Gordon Brown on it.

eg when Gordon Brown went around in his coronation saying the ' NHS was his priority' which can only mean the English NHS for that is all Westminster can legislate on, the Conservatives failed to publicise the fact that Gordon Brown had staged English nurses wage rise, while funding Scotland’s nurses wage increase in full. And pointing out that Gordon Brown had slashed capital spending in the English NHS by a third, yet leave his Scottish budgets untouched.

This and all the other opportunities they have squandered to politically knife Brown makes you wonder if there is really the hunger for power the Conservatives claim they have. For any party with a hunger for power would have pushed this up the agenda, and certainly anyone with political ambitions would have wanted to correct the injustices of constitutional mess Labour have created. But at best the Conservative response has been anaemic and limp, worst Cameron going to Scotland to bad mouth English anger at the situation.

[englandism]

Gordon Brown and the Westminster parish pump may like to pretend that England is a sideshow but this is what Dr Ian Davis of the British American Security Information thinks:

'The next UK general election must be held on or before 3 June 2010. It is possible that it may be held in June 2009 to coincide with elections to the European Parliament or even as early as Spring 2008, if a confident Gordon Brown were to take a sustained lead in the opinion polls. There are four key areas in which the UK election battleground will be fought:

1.
The Economy.
2.
Health
3.
The English/Scottish divide (The 'West Lothian Question'):
4.
Foreign Policy'

England is one of the key four battle areas? Gordon is drafting a battle plan that completely ignores a critical threat which is a wee bit like a general ignoring the enemy armoured divisions because he doesn't like them.

Source:
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4412

[Ekky Thump]

This comes up ever single day in conversation. The general attititude of irritation has changed track to fury.
I sometimes wonder if the ruling elite are deliberately trying to push us into a civil war.
It's either that, or they are so far removed from reality and the draining patience of the English, that they have no right to be in a position of authority in the first place.
Sides are being chosen and I wouldn't put my money on the Scots winning this one.

[Iain]

"This comes up ever single day in conversation. The general attititude of irritation has changed track to fury."

Yes that is my take on the issue, bubbling resentment is turning to outright anger, yet nobody in the Westminster village is prepared to represent the issue, which is just adding to the anger.

You wonder if the plan is to drive us to riot and rebellion, for that can be the only outcome of their contempt of English people and their complacency.

Essentially all the institutions are currently failing English people, the Westminster village, the Church of England, and the people who have arrogantly anointed themselves as the people to hold politicians to account, the BBC, are just as institutionally blind ( and that's being generous) to English peoples interests. In fact the only time the BBC raises the issue is when they ask Scots about their opinions on constitutional matters, English peoples interests forget it. As we heard with Any Questions last Friday, yet it was good to hear that English people were calling is sufficient numbers on Any Answers that the BBC had to give them air time.

[englandism]

William Rees-Mogg is on the case today at The Times:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/william_rees_mogg/article2469067.ece

'Beware, Mr Brown, the English are proud patriots too'

Except that English patriots are knuckle dragging chavs according to our betters, see:

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2007/09/englandism-resi.html

And the BBC are busily knocking out programming with British in the title just to numb us into compliance with an England regionalised out of existence.

[Mr Lachie Todd]

I am afraid the United Kingdom is now a quasi-Federal State in everything but constitutional name!
In all probability, Federal or Con-federal government is the next logical step on the road but, ultimately, it will evolve into a dissolution of this unitary state!
The centralised British State came to an end last century and is long Gone With The Wind!
Unionists will still attempt to paper over the gaping cracks in the ediface of the U.K. State but it is now far too late!
The Scots now have a viable, fully functioning unicameral devolved parliament which, presently, enacts devolved legislation and receives the Royal Assent in EXACTLY the same way as at Westminster AND Stormont!
In 1707, in their desperation to 'catch' Scotland, and force through the incorporation, the English and Scottish Commissioners made a fatal mistake when they
allowed Scotland to retain all its State Institutions(which never existed in the Principality or Province) especially the unique Law of Scotland?!
In effect, Scotland was still a nation which had simply been suspended within a unitary state and when the opportunity came along in the form of Devolution, The Scottish Parliament was reconvened, as if it had never ceased to exist!
The Nationalist genie is now out of the Unionist bottle and if your contributors care to examine Scottish voting patterns, since 1967, they will discover that, in a short 40 years, the Scottish National Party's gradualist approach to making Scotland an independent sovereign State is not far off.
British Unionists of course will do everything within their considerable power to prevent this outcome but it is now inevitable!
As the great Irish Statesman Arthur Griffiths stated during negotiations with Lord Birkenhead when the old British Empire
partitioned Ireland believing that it had stymied an Irish Republic forever: "This [treaty] gives us [the Irish] the freedom to achieve freedom"!
After the negotiations were over, much to the annoyance of the British Establishment, Lord Birkenhead described Arthur Griffiths
as one of the most courageous men he had ever met, and so it proved!
You cannot prevent the match of a nation!