Happy Europe Day...

"You may have come across a reference in a diary or elsewhere to the fact that 9 May is "Europe Day" and perhaps asked about its significance. Probably very few people in Europe know that on 9 May 1950 the first move was made towards the creation of what is now known as the European Union."

It is 56 years to the day since French Foreign Minister Robert Schuman called on Europe to pool coal and steel production as "the first concrete foundation of a European federation".

Chris Patten last night marked this precious occasion by sounding off against David Cameron's pledge to leave the European People's Party. He said that now is not the time to be throwing custard pies at the EU, and that the commitment had not been thought through.

Lord Patten is not alone - Quentin Davies MP, who recently wrote about political funding, had already said the Conservatives would look like dishonest double-glazing merchants and gazumpers if they left the EPP. There is even a "Campaign for the Conservatives to remain in the EPP-ED Group" blog, it is rarely updated but does include handy "Good Guys", "On the fence" and "Bad Guys" lists of MEPs.

George Osborne reaffirmed the pledge on Sunday AM, saying "we have a clear commitment to leave the European People's Party... we are making pretty good progress with finding partners". A senior party insider that I have spoken to is confident the party will disaffiliate within months.

William Hague has been in negotiations with like-minded parties, a key one being the Czech ODS party which is heading for victory in next month's elections.

The issue was first brought to public attention in September when Liam Fox pledged to leave the grouping if elected leader. ConservativeHome is now taking questions for Liam in the Interviews section.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

Many happy returns on Europe day, lets hope -to coin a phrase - that European co-operation "goes deeper, faster and wider" in the forthcoming years.

Happy Europe Day.

[Sean Fear]

A good day to remember that all true Conservatives should be at the throat of the EU, rather than at the heart of the EU.

[Christina]

It will be a happy day in Europe when a lot of reforms are carried out. It's good to be European though.

[Andrew Woodman]

I wonder if the founders thought in 56 years, that the EU would become a by word for corruption, sleaze and unaccountability.

Can we have an EU reform day?

[Annabel Herriott]

Like Roger H says, "Love Europe, Hate the EU"

[Serf]

He said that now is not the time to be throwing custard pies at the EU

What is so special about now?

Its alway time to throw custard pies at the EU, assuming that they conform to The Custard Pie Directive, of course.

[wasp]

Why shouldn't we celebrate Europe day, whatever you think about the CAP its great to be European.

[Christina]

Serf wrote:

"Its alway time to throw custard pies at the EU, assuming that they conform to The Custard Pie Directive, of course."

Which, of course, forbids the use of shaving foam masquerading as custard. :-)

[True Blue]

Let us celebrate the longest period of sustained peace and economic prosperity in Europe since Ugg the Caveman learned how to kill the first mammoth. Remember Churchill's words:

"There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent? And why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings and help to shape the honourable destiny of man? In order that this may be accomplished there must be an act of faith in which the millions of families speaking many languages must consciously take part."

(Incidentally, I think Churchill's wish for a United States of Europe was horribly misguided, but this is a stirring speech with some worthy sentiments nevertheless.)

http://portal.coe.ge/index.php?lan=en&id=million

The EU has terrible problems, but an inward looking xenophobia would cripple our economy and make us pariahs. It echoes the nationalism and suspicion of the pre-ward years. Current Conservative policy allows us to engage with Europe, welcome new Eurospectic members to dilute the social democratic malaise of Germany and France, and build a Europe of cooperating nation states, where decisions are taken at the lowest level they can be taken.

We can only do this by building a new Eurosceptic alliance within Europe by making full use of the mechanisms, and laws of EU. Turning away from the EU, towards groups of states with a total population of less than Greater London, or looking West to a sensibly self-interested North America will leave us stranded.

There are 364 days to moan about Europe; this is one day where I hope even withdrawalists can celebrate the common achievments and culture of this great continent.

[William]

Conservatives like Patten should be ashamed of themselves. He helped the Chinese to override democracy in Hong Kong, and now he wants us silenced too. No wonder the BNP are surging, accusing all three major parties of being a conspiracy to destroy British democracy.

If Osborn is right, it's the first sign of hope about Cameron - that he is not a Europhile who's conned the Conservative eurosceptic wing into backing him. Is this the new Brown/Blair act? Cameron acting europhile (like Blair)to get the media backing required to win elections, while Chancellor Osborn keeps the EU brakes on.

Unless we in the Conservative Party get off our arses and articulate the principles of democratic accountability and national sovereignty in the EU Parliament, which the EU is destroying by day, we, along with 350 million other Europeans will be dead meat.

Europe needs the Conservatives to take a lead. If Patten thinks such matters are the moral equivalent of custard pies, then he had better find something else to do - isn't running Oxford University into the ground satisfying his lust for endless tear-filled failure?

[johnC]

I've just looked at the website for the 'campaign for the Conservatives to RemAin in the ePp-ed group' (CRAP for short ?) Among other nuggets we are informed that next year the Treaty of Rome (1957) will be 60 years old. With such mathematical accuracy among the federasts is it any wonder that the EU accounts haven't been signed off for 11 years ?

[True Blue]

Europe needs the Conservatives to take a lead.

Absolutely. I'm sure you agree you can't lead a race by leaving it.

[Michael McGowan]

Oh dear, not more patrician outbursts from the day-before-yesterday's men like Marshal Chris Petain. Just stick to what you are best at, Chris: enjoying the delights of High Table.

[William]

Tru Blue, whether Britain stays in the EU or leaves the EU, it is in the interests of the whole world that the EU does not descend into totalitarianism. With all power rushing to the centre, and the once democratic nations which created it being subsumed into its tentacles, the EU is becoming dangerously powerful and subject to no democratic control.

There is only one way for us to try to turn this disaster in the making around. That is to work through a new alliance in the European Parliament with countries that can also see the extraordinarily dangerous situation that is being created. We must get out of the EPP, join with the Czechs after their elections, and others and start the process of saving Europe from the EU.

If we fail in the attempt, we will have no choice but to exit the EU. It will become an economic and political black hole from which all the rats will have no choice but to run, and run fast.

[Richard]

"There are 364 days to moan about Europe; this is one day where I hope even withdrawalists can celebrate the common achievments and culture of this great continent."

I can sympathise with this. However I fear that "Europe" has become so synonymous with EU (and indeed this anniversary is about the start of European federalism) that many people will be reluctant to celebrate. Perhaps when the first steps are made towards turning the EU into a free trade area would be a more appropriate day!

[True Blue]

That is to work through a new alliance in the European Parliament with countries that can also see the extraordinarily dangerous situation that is being created. We must get out of the EPP, join with the Czechs after their elections, and others and start the process of saving Europe from the EU.

I'm glad we are agreed, and serendipitously, this is Conservative policy.

[Geoff]

I'm sure you agree you can't lead a race by leaving it.

What on earth is there for us to "win"? The EU is a lose/lose scenario for Great Britain. I for one am not celebrating Surrender Day. Let's leave.

We are losing sight of our traditional and natural ally on the other side of the Pond. The Europeans are not our friends and never will be. Unless we adopt a more Atlanticist policy we will soon find ourselves friendless in the diplomatic world. Already our policy of only buying poor quality outdated European weaponry (Eurofighter with a gun full of concrete to make it balance, those inadequately armoured jeeps etc etc) is causing issues. France's policy of giving military technology to the Chinese means the US quite rightly doesn't trust us with theirs.

We have to concede, though, that the Foreign Office were just as interested in selling this country down the river under our leadership as they are under Labour, so there is nothing new under the sun.

One of these days I'll agree with True Blue, but today is, once again, not it.

[malcolm]

Why do you always seem to imply True Blue that opposition to the EU is based on 'inward looking xenophobia'.I see absolutely no evidence of that within the Conservative party and would be grateful if you could provide examples for us all.Most of the opposition to both our continued membership of the EPP and the EU in general seem to be based on practical considerations rather than anything else in my experience.See Dan Hannans recent article in the Daily Telegraph.
The EU shows no inclination to reform itself and continues to be inefficient,corrupt and unaccountable how much longer should we wait before we decide that being a member of this terrible club is no longer in our best interests.
If Europe day encourages people to look seriously at the pros and cons of the EU it will be worthwhile.In that spirit I would wish everyone a happy Europe day!

[Andrew Woodman]

The reason Pro EUers always call us who are anti EU 'inward looking xenophobics', is because they don't want to argue on the basis of fact, so it's easier to categorize us by name calling. The EU is bloated and unaccountable. One of the reasons voter turnout is so low is because so many of our laws come from the undemocratic European Commision, and until that starts being rolled back, voter turnout will remain low as there is a feeling their vote won't make any difference.

[Chad]

Indeed Andrew, there are three choice of approach to foreign policy; internationalist, regionalist or isloationist. Only one supports membership of the EU, but the pro-EU'ers pretend the only other option is isolationist.

Internatinalist exist in the LibDems too, they just see the EU as a good first step towards internationalism, not the solution in itself.

However, I love Europe, have lived on the mainland and didn't want to return (missus did) and have one of the kids born in the land of clogs.

There's no need to argue about the EU, just give us a referendum, then we can all agree to abide by the result and pursue the direction chosen by the British people. Deal?

I'll happily accept and work for reform within the EU if that is what the people decide.

In the same way, will the reformists accept withdrawal if the people decide?

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

Anybody up for a chorus or two of the obviously misnamed European supranational anthem - Beethoven's 'Ode To Joy'?

[William Norton]

I'm sure you agree you can't lead a race by leaving it.

Well, yes, but: I've never led the London Marathon. I've never entered the London Marathon. I have no intention of ever entering the London Marathon. I've no objection to other people running in the London Marathon but personally I find the idea of running around 26 miles of London streets a bit silly. I don't believe I've suffered by denying myself membership of the London Marathon.

[JT]

True Blue - you make frankly idiotic and grossly ill-informed comments on the subject of the EU.

If you would care to read Richard North's piece on this topic today (link below) you might gain a more historially accurate view of the EU project and a more realistic view of the potential it has (i.e. none) for the type of 'reform' we would like to see.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/05/another-try-on.html

[Chris Gillibrand]

Europe Day 2006 and the "Day of Open Doors" in Brussels A photoreport.

[True Blue]

True Blue - you make frankly idiotic and grossly ill-informed comments on the subject of the EU.

Which particular ill-informed, idiotic comments do you most object to?

If you would care to read Richard North's piece on this topic today (link below) you might gain a more historially accurate view of the EU project and a more realistic view of the potential it has (i.e. none) for the type of 'reform' we would like to see

I've just read it. I don't see the relevance to this debate. I don't see any discussion of history, or potential. I can only assume you have accidentally pointed at the wrong article.

[Serf]

Let us celebrate the longest period of sustained peace and economic prosperity in Europe since Ugg the Caveman learned how to kill the first mammoth.

Membership of the EU is in some ways, surrender before the first shot is fired. That the members are willing to do such a thing, shows that they have no stomach for fighting each other.

Therefore the EU is a symptom of our desire for peace, not the cause of it.

[JT]

True Blue

Many apologies!

This is the one I intended to link to.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/05/europe-day.html

[True Blue]

I have posted extensive responses to the EU withdrawalists on another thread. In summary (if you really need it):

1. There is an historical opportunity in the light of the failed referendums on the Constitution, the obvious disadvantages of the German/French social democracy model, the accession of new, self-interested nation states, a growing mood of Euroscepticism amongst the whole of Europe's population. This is the opportunity to fight within the EU to remake it a as a free market, as I think most people desire. The opportunity depends on their being a Eurosceptic Tory government with an overall majority. To leave instead of grasping this opportunity would be short-sighted and foolish. This will be our window for change.

2. EFTA. A vast, powerful trading bloc consisting of 12 million people - yes - 12 million people. 89% of Norways legislation is just EU legislation rubber-stamped, and yes that does include the nasty social legislation which you might think to avoid by joining this immense world force. That's why a former Prime Minister called them a "fax democracy." The member states are rich for historical reasons unconnected to their absence of membership of the EU. Norway has been subject to punitive taxation on their exports. So, if we left and wanted to continue trading, we'd have to do what they say, without being able to say what they do. We aren't the States.

3. Joining NAFTA. Becoming an insignificant adjunct to the US, with basically no clout at all is a bad idea. It isn't even a free market zone. Just look at how Canada has been treated. In addition, and perhaps more importantly - they don't want us to join. Successive US Presidents wish us to remain what we are, an EU member and a stepping stone for the English speaking world into Europe.

4. I've been asked - surely the French would put economics before politics? Their exports to us would are vital. Welcome to the world or realpolitick. Remember when interest rates were determined by the Chancellor? Was the rate he set best for the economy, or were rate cuts and raises sometimes made for political reasons, and not economic reasons? I suspect a bit of nationalistic Albion-bashing would go down pretty well amongst an EU with no Britain. No, they won't let us have access to their markets with no comeback. Yes, they would screw us over to score political points at home. Bang would go our access to the new Eastern European markets. In short, our trade with the EU is more important to us than the trade of individual EU countries with them.

That's just a few reasons to add to the more obvious ones.

To paraphrase Churchill - the EU is the worst kind of relationship with Europe we can have apart from every other arrangement that has been tried.

[johnC]

May I suggest that we move this celebration to 29th May, the anniversary of the French rejection of the EU Constitution, and rename it 'Good-bye to Europe Day'. That really is something to celebrate.

Also, are there any OUCA bloggers out there who can organise some custard pies to throw at Fat Pat at the next Encaenia please ?

[malcolm]

I have just looked at the Campaign for the Conservatives to remain in trhe EPP-ED group.What a horrible little site it is too with absolutely NO coherent arguments as to how the EPP benefits Britain but plenty of references to prestigous (!) jobs that have been secured by individual MEPs as a result of our membership of it.It also talks about the 'influence' we apparently have but as always does not explain what advantages this brings.
As Tim mentions above it describes a number of our MEPs as 'bad guys' which is an absolute disgrace.I would urge all bloggers at CH to send their comments to this site.It will be interesting to see if they publish any of them!

[malcolm]

True Blue, we run a huge trade deficit with EU members, are you seriously suggesting they would wish to put at risk their trade with us?

[True Blue]

True Blue, we run a huge trade deficit with EU members, are you seriously suggesting they would wish to put at risk their trade with us?

Is that a rhetorical question? I thought I'd covered that in point 3, above. The EU trading block would have more clout over us than vice versa. We'd have to accept their rules and regulations in order to trade with them. Would they be bloody-minded about it if we didn't? You can be your life they would, if it was politically advantageous. They have a much bigger stick than we do.

Therefore the EU is a symptom of our desire for peace, not the cause of it.

The EU is a consequence of the desire for peace after the second world war, but I believe it has allowed us to sustain peaceful relations with Europe over the last 50 years, and not expend energy fighting each other, either economically or militarily. If there had been no EU, I'm not sure this would have happened. There was a similar desire for piece after WWI, but the Europe of squabbling nation states, nationalism and xenophobia within Europe, and a Britain which stood aloof from Europe allowed WW2 to happen. The EU has made it almost inconceivable that we would have war in Europe again - the leadership have been working together for too long, and the EU has allowed and enforced free trade and free movement of capital and some labour. I'm not sure how far this analogy should be taken, though.

Do you seriously think that Europe would be a better place if Churchill's vision of unity had some to pass? If we hadn't joined the EU when we were the "sick man of Europe"?

[Andrew Woodman]

I don't really find any of True Blues arguments convincing. EU members will not stop trading with us if the EU is rolled back. We're in an era of globalization after all. Many of these dire warnings appear similar to those about going into the Euro. We survived not doing that pretty well.

The EU is unaccountable and when unaccountable institutions rule the roost over a body of people, an uprising is inevitable.

[Sean Fear]

Well there are other reasons why we have been at peace. The first was that we have mostly been members of the same military alliance, NATO, from 1949, and we faced a common enemy up till 1989. The second is that warfare between democracies, in the modern World, is very unusual.

Suppose we had not joined the EU in 1973. I'd regard it as being highly unlikely that we would have gone to war with an EU member state over the past 33 years.

[johnC]

'The EU has made it almost inconceivable that we would have war in Europe again '

Oh yes ? What about Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo ? We had war on our doorsteps and a fat lot of good the EU did about it.

[Rob Largan]

The 9th of May is also another special day.

[Chad]

Could perhaps ConHome run a poll of EU options? It would be interesting to see how many here support withdrawal.

[True Blue]

Oh yes ? What about Bosnia, Croatia, Kosovo ? We had war on our doorsteps and a fat lot of good the EU did about it.

Thank you for this confirmation of my view. They were not members of the EU. Would you have liked the EU to interfere in international politics and intervene?

[Chad]

Hi TB,

You are right, members of the EU did not go to war. Should we not therefore logically extend this grouping internationally to stop all wars from occurring?

[True Blue]

Could perhaps ConHome run a poll of EU options? It would be interesting to see how many here support withdrawal.

I've been asking for this, too.

In the general population support runs at 24%-35%. Amongst most Tories, I seem to remember it is a little higher (at least according to the Telegraph)

I suspect amongst this activist bunch it will be closer to 50%.

I suggest the three options are:

Immediate withdrawal from the EU.
Staying in the EU but renegotiating so that the EU becomes just a free market.
Continue with European integration.

The first option is UKIP policy, the second current Conservative policy and the third the Europhile Labour and LibDem option.

[Commissioner Petain]

"As Tim mentions above it describes a number of our MEPs as 'bad guys' which is an absolute disgrace.I would urge all bloggers at CH to send their comments to this site.It will be interesting to see if they publish any of them!"

A number of our MEPs *are* bad guys, just not the ones that site thinks....

[True Blue]

Suppose we had not joined the EU in 1973. I'd regard it as being highly unlikely that we would have gone to war with an EU member state over the past 33 years.

I agree, but if there had been no EU at all, things might have been a little different (although I suspect no direct military conflict). I do think American economic hegemony over Europe would now be complete.

[True Blue]

May I suggest that we move this celebration to 29th May, the anniversary of the French rejection of the EU Constitution, and rename it 'Good-bye to Europe Day'. That really is something to celebrate.

This Freudian slip says it all - not even 'Good-bye to the EU', but 'Goodbye to Europe.' If that isn't inward looking, I don't know what is.

Of course the French rejection of the constitution is an opportunity - this is exactly what I've been saying, but it is an opportunity to renegotiate.

[True Blue]

You are right, members of the EU did not go to war. Should we not therefore logically extend this grouping internationally to stop all wars from occurring?

Expanding the EU is a definitely a good thing. The new nation stations joining have to take on certain values and laws in order to be permitted to join, and are far less likely to act militarily.

I hope one day in the distant future that Russia will join.

[Chad]

Tim,

Are you still confident on a pre 01.01.2007 withdrawal from the EPP?

[William]

Andrew Woodman doesn't really find any of True Blues arguments convincing. EU members will not stop trading with us if the EU is rolled back

Of course they would not - also we could start trading with the rest of the world which even with huge EU barriers to trade e.g. 50% tarrif on all electronic goods, and 75% tarrifs on agricultural, is still the majority. Europe is shrinking fast in its significance to the world economy.

Prof Minford estimates the EU loses us £200 Billion a year in lost opportunity, let alone the cash costs of membership. We could afford to get rid of VAT in its entirety if our economy grew 20%.

[Andrew Woodman]

'I hope one day in the distant future that Russia will join.'

Somehow, I can't see that happening.

[johnC]

True Blue - it was you who made the slip (I don't know what's so Freudian about it) of confusing Europe and the EU. You said that war in Europe was inconceivable thanks to the EU. I pointed out that we had recently had wars in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo - which are certainly in Europe - to which you replied irrelevantly that they are not in the EU.

[Andrew Woodman]

Another thing that amuses me about the EU is peoples attitude to regional aid. 'What will happen is we leave the EU, we won't get EU money anymore'. It's our money!! We send it to Brussels and get a tiny percentage back whilst the rest goes to worthwhile projects such as buying Real Madrids training ground.

[True Blue]

True Blue - it was you who made the slip (I don't know what's so Freudian about it) of confusing Europe and the EU. You said that war in Europe was inconceivable thanks to the EU. I pointed out that we had recently had wars in Bosnia, Croatia and Kosovo - which are certainly in Europe - to which you replied irrelevantly that they are not in the EU.

Touché. I did make this slip. To clarify, I meant "wars between EU nations". Did you mean "Goodbye to Europe?"

[Editor]

Chad: "Tim,

Are you still confident on a pre 01.01.2007 withdrawal from the EPP?"

Yes. I'm looking forward to you writing that £100 cheque to CCHQ, Chad!

[Andrew Woodman]

'Yes. I'm looking forward to you writing that £100 cheque to CCHQ, Chad!'

Make sure you use it as a banner for a thread Editor.

[johnC]

Touché. I did make this slip. To clarify, I meant "wars between EU nations". Did you mean "Goodbye to Europe?"

No - I meant goodbye to the EU political concept of Europe as a single superstate, a project always doomed to disaster.

Shall we call it a draw ?

[Richard]

Patrick Minford's book can be read online:

http://www.btinternet.com/~patrick.minford/europe/index.html

[Chad]

Use of ConHome: Free
ChameleonArmy Membership: £100
EPP bet with Tim: £100
Caroline Jackson's face when EPP withdrawal is completed: priceless

It will be the happiest 100 quid I've ever lost I think! :-)

[Deborah]

On this fine day we should remember Marta Andreasen, former chief accountant at the EU, who was sacked for the "crime" of acting with honesty and professional integrity.
I think that says it all.

[Deborah]

Perhaps I should have added:
Lets remember Neil Kinnock too - he retired on a full pension

[True Blue]

Andrew Woodman doesn't really find any of True Blues arguments convincing. EU members will not stop trading with us if the EU is rolled back

Who said they would? However, in order to continue trading with them - and they are our biggest trading partners - we would have to implement their laws, just as Norway has.

Professor Minford's paper has an overriding assumption, that the EU will continue towards greater integration and protectionism, but as he says " it does not have to be this way". It is exactly this greater integration that our policy is against.

[True Blue]

Shall we call it a draw ?

On this issue, yes! Although I may demand satisfaction on other matters, sirrah.

[malcolm]

'However in order to continue to trade with them....we would have to implement their laws,just as Norway has'. How do you or anyone else know that?Has the issue been explored? No.
You sound like someone who feels defeated already.Chamberlain perhaps.Personally I prefer Churchill.

[Andrew Woodman]

So if we sell bananas in pounds and ounces instead of grams and kilograms, EU countries will stop trading with us! We've managed to opt out of the Euro and at the time, the social chapter. I can't see us having to implement every petty bit of European legislation to keep our trading partners should we roll back the EU.

[True Blue]

You sound like someone who feels defeated already.Chamberlain perhaps.Personally I prefer Churchill.

Oh, Malcolm, this is like taking candy from a baby.

You are just the teensiest bit mixed up here. It was Churchill who believed in European integration, and Chamberlain who was the isolationist. I'm sure you'd be happy to support Churchill's views:

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted by the great majority of people in many lands, would as by a miracle transform the whole scene and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and happy as Switzerland is today. What is this sovereign remedy? It is to recreate the European fabric, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, safety and freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living. The process is simple. All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing.

[True Blue]

'However in order to continue to trade with them....we would have to implement their laws,just as Norway has'. How do you or anyone else know that?Has the issue been explored? No.

What do you mean by this? Do you want to "explore the issue" by leaving the EU and seeing what happens? A ridiculous, foolhardy an unnecessary risk. Have you any evidence to the contrary? You are the one who wants to change the status quo.

[True Blue]

So if we sell bananas in pounds and ounces instead of grams and kilograms, EU countries will stop trading with us!

Pretty much - yes. They will insist we sell them products suitably packaged, created within the scope EU directives including units, which they will make without any consultation with us at all.

If we don't follow their directives, we won't be allowed to export the goods.

[Anne Palmer]

"Probably very few people in Europe know that on 9 May 1950 the first move was made towards the creation of what is now known as the European Union." We shall never forget May the 9th. Never, even though we try to put it behind us. So very, very soon after the war,(just five years) it was decided to conquer what they did not succeed in doing by war. While we were still trying to rebuild our cities, grieve over the loved ones we lost forever as young men and women. May 8th was a day we prefer to remember, long before 'today's' brash young men give away all we fought for.

Yet a new kind of war is not very far off now and whether the new leader of the Conservative Party understands or dares to mention or not, the European Union will be mentioned in the future especially if the Commission get its way with police, justice and home affairs and foreign and defence policy. Just how long do you think the people are going to 'just stand by and watch'? It may well be that the people that have CHOSEN to come and live here because of the wonderful way of life we HAD when they first came, that will be first to become unsettled.

We shall see, but the Union will not even begin to be what the USA has become, at least not with the United Kingdom of Great Britain in it. For those that prefer to mistakenly be at the heart of Europe (meaning the Union) they will have to move to the continent eventually.

[malcolm]

Thank you for being so characteristically patronising True Blue.I do know my history and am well aware of this speech from Churchill.Equally I'm sure you are aware that Churchill never envisaged Britain joining a United States Of Europe and stated many times thast if asked to choose between Europe and the USA he would always choose the USA.
'Do you want to explore the issue by leaving the EU and seeing what happens?'.No but I do want to have a debate both within the Conservative party and if it proves to be acceptable with the British people.Finally if it proves to be the will of the people then we discuss it with our European partners.

[True Blue]

I'm guessing the other Conservative party supporters on our Europe policy have lost the will to post. I don't blame them.

A few pragmatic points from a purely Conservative poltical perspective:

1. The current Conservative party policy is coherent and straightforward. We are the only party offering a solid Eurosceptic line. I think very few people in the country would disagree with it. You want to leave before even trying renegotiation?

2. A number of people on the left, but far more on the right support withdrawal. This amounts to a relatively small minority of the population, and minority of the party. A platform for EU withdrawal is simply not going to happen, certainly not this side of an election. So what will be the effect of dissention and in particular disloyalty on this issue? Straightforwardly, lost votes. Europhilic parties will be more likely to win.

The proportion of people who consider this a vote-switching issue is very low. If you do consider it an absolute point of principle, and your on contribution is to attack Conservative party policy, I think you'd be much happier elsewhere. Unfortunately, your only option is to vote UKIP, BNP, or possibly SWP.

UKIPs' showing in the local elections showed us just how popular an issue this is. What a vote-winner!

If we did take this on as a policy we would be utterly destroyed at the polls. It would be our unilateral disarmament. The parallel is instrucive. Unilateral disarmament supporters injected the nuclear weapons debate into every argument, saying it was more important than anything else, believed that if only people heard the message that they would change their minds, that there was a conspiracy to hide the truth and that unrealistic ideological purity was more important than winning the election. And what did those lefties get? Pure Thatcher on their pasty red arses.

3. On the referendum. I don't think a referendum would satisfy the withdrawlists even when they lost. Just a few other reasons not to have a referendum. The only people who want a referendum are the 24% who want to leave. There is no current constitional issue to debate; there isn't anything like the support required to win; it would destroy the Conservative party; it would waste a great deal of time and money; it would send the wrong signals to our allies and it would waste parliametary time best spent on governing the country. Finally, I have no doubt that it wouldn't shut the withdrawlists up. I'd be happy with a referendum on the Euro or the European constituion (ironically rejected by the French for being too Anglo Saxon)

[malcolm]

A whole bunch of assertions as usual. Others may have lost the will to post,I certainly have to debate with you.

[Rob G]

TB: I'm guessing the other Conservative party supporters on our Europe policy have lost the will to post.
Not exactly. I still agree with most of what you are posting and have little to add. I suspect you are broadly right in thinking that the original EU countries (especially France) would put innumerable barriers in our way if we withdrew and wanted to continue trading. For them, the EU is not a matter of logic and practicality, else they would never have pursued the degree of harmonisation and regulation that already exists.

I would certainly not want to see any further steps towards EU integration. And I would expect a DC-led Conservative government to do what he has promised, which is that we should challenge "the culture of the EU. Not just resisting new regulations, but fighting to end the EU’s damaging social role, leaving it to focus on its real job: making the single market work properly and championing free trade" and "press home the arguments for radical change: returning employment and social regulation to national control.”

More generally, I would expect us to fight for proper implementation of the principle of subisdiarity. If we can't achieve this with the support of the newer members of the EU, then we should consider withdrawal. But it would be defeatist to opt for withdrawal without ever making a serious attempt at reform.

[True Blue]

A whole bunch of assertions as usual. Others may have lost the will to post,I certainly have to debate with you.

Do you want to offer any response to my points, or offer anything up in support of your views?

That's me done for the day, but I've noticed a total lack of substantive responses to my main objections to EU withdrawal, and little else other than "EU bad" in support of the position. I hope this is rectified by the morning. This is a legitimate thread for an EU debate - so put forward your arguments.

[William]

The UK is the destination of 16% of the eurozone's exports approximately - more than the USA.

It is possible that the EU would raise tarriff barriers against us if we left the EU but it is unlikely.

If they did so we could retaliate not by raising tarriffs against the EU in a tit for tat, but by getting rid of the 50% barriers we are forced to put up against the rest of the world by the EU on many product areas. The EU would have to compete for our business for once.

Cars could tumble in price. Computers could fall by a third. Food could halve. Our economy could grow so fast that we could lower rates of tax and net larger revenues. We could at last join the world economy.

True Blue says that we do most of our business with the eurozone. We don't. Of the 30% of our economy that is internationally traded (70% is internal), about 50% is with the EU - i.e. 15% of the total. The figures are always hotly disputed - e.g the Rotterdam effect.

Without the tarriff barriers in place against the rest of the world this would swing to a more natutal 66/33% with the EU the lower figure (maybe 10% of our economy).

We could grow like mad as the trading nation that we are, instead of being locked up inside an economy designed to protect over-priced EU manufacturers from another era.

[DavidB]

I am sickened at Europe Day. Money is being wasted forcing Euro-rubbish down people's throats; no thank you. I am pro-Europe but anti-EU, because I love Europe but hate the EU, for several reasons;

1. From the very start it has been a federal nationalistic project; "federation europeeann" (Schuman Plan, 1950). This has largely been kept from the public and those speaking against it have suffered vilification as eccentric loonatics.

2. It's too Nationalistic, trying to create a new 'European identity' which, by its very idea, overrides the native cultures which are natural, organic and based around the people that created them. To create a European identity would mean destroying diverse and interesting cultures; a huge travesty. Basically, it's top down culture, instead of a grass roots culture. I prefer liberal nationalism as discussed earlier on CH (Garibaldi foreign policy) and by Dan Hannan MEP.

3. It's too xenophobic, inward looking and protectionist. There's more to the World than Europe!

4. It can never be democratic. A democracy requires a single 'demos' or 'people' who feel culturally bound as one. Otherwise the losing parties would always reject the rule of the majority. It would be like merging India with Pakistan, America with Canada or Australia with New Zealand.

5. It steals credit. Peace has been created by free trade and NATO! Cheap air travel by competitive markets [and Freddie Laker].

6. It bankrupts farmers/fishermen and destroys our environment with the CAP/CFP, then traps developing nations in poverty.

IN QUOTES
"I have always found the word 'Europe' on the lips of those who wanted something from others which they dared not demand in their own names!" (German Chancellor Bismarck, 1880).

"Our continent has seen successive attempts at unifying it: Caesar, Charlemagne and Napoleon, among others. The aim has been to unify it by force of arms, by the sword. We for our part seek to unify it by the pen. Will the pen succeed where the sword has finally failed? " (Valery Giscard d'Estaing, president of the EU Convention, 29th May 2003).

“[I am against creating a single European state] because each state has its own identity, its own history, its own language, its tragedies, triumphs and ambitions” (De Gaulle), “any form of 'intégration' or ' fédération' must be shunned,” instead, “the key requisites must rather be 'concertation' , 'entente' and ‘rapprochement’”.

[William]

What is not reported in the UK (which is odd as it fills papers such as Wall St Journal) is that the USA, frustrated by the EU at every turn in the GATT rounds, is now making its own bilateral free trade deals across Asia. Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia, Philippines and so on.

This is what we could do if we quit the EU. This is where the future of the world's economy lies, where most of the growth is coming from. We could really get out there and build a future for ourselves. Locked up in the Brussels nightmare we are being bypassed.

Maybe 35 years ago the EU made sense as a way to get trade going between European nations. But the wold economy has more than trebled since then, and Europe's share of it has halved.

Why are we locked up in the shrinkzone? when we should be moving into the growthzone. The USA is getting a free run in Asia with Europe's arms tied behind its back. We should be there too.

[Andrew Woodman]

'I've noticed a total lack of substantive responses to my main objections to EU withdrawal'

That's because you've skimmed over them True Blue.

[Richard North]

You don't argue with Eurphiles... you apply the Harrison Ford solution.

[Richard]

True Blue, I would be interested to hear your opinion on the Swiss option. they have far less clout than us but have successfully negotiated bilateral free trade agreements with the EU.

I am willing to give EU reform a try if there's a serious chance of it working. However, turning the EU into a mere free trade area would antagonise the French and Germans who don't like having to compete with deregulated labour markets. As far as they're concerned EU regulations are needed to make us as crippled as they are. Otherwise it's "unfair" competition. The pro-European Will Hutton has pointed out that the rest of Europe won't want a "race to the bottom free trade area", especially if Turkey becomes a member. How do we convince them otherwise?

[Derek]

I hope the rumours are wrong that we are going to drop our policy of repatriating our fishing rights from EU control. It seems odd that we may be going soft on this when we are going to leave the EPP.

Personally I would like to see us re-negotiate our relationshi with the EU altogether, but I realise that it could not be official policy as it would be too controversial and frighten the floating voters. What those like me have to do is work to change the perception of the public by supporting initiatives like "Better Off Out", and inform the public of what the EU really costs the country.

[Oberon Houston]

Well well, who would have thought that the EU being mentioned on a Tory Blog would attract such a response.

I love the EU!!
I think we would be sunk without it!!
I love Delores!!
Get rid of the Pound!!
Vote Goldsmith!!
Burn Patton!!

Okay, before I get letters reminiscent of GSC shareholders, I would like to distance myself from the above comments, however, I do have a problem with the fact that whilst we are IN OPPOSITION for the 3rd term, whilst we NEED to concentrate on regaining power from a ruling LABOUR PARTY that are doing more damage to our institutions and our internal union than any european deal has ever done, well I feel that we have got our priorities mixed up a bit. And, yes, I do think that it is holding us back from power.

[DavidB]

We may as well leave the EU, it's simple;

1. The only benefit is trade, we can sign free trade if we leave the EU (like the Swiss etc). Furthermore we can sign free trade with more countries like the USA and Canada, plus free the developing world by trading with them also.

2. It costs the UK more than we get back.

3. We will be more competitive without EU red tape, more democratic as powers will be back in Britain, and more powerful because we'll have an independent voice.

DC has got to support EU withdrawal or his anti-poverty message is worthless.

N.B. Peace hasn't been created by the EU despite their claims but by NATO, a lack of insane meglomaniacs in government and far better cultural understanding. A free trade bloc and NATO agreement is the only decent, liberal and sensible answer. For example, the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance has kept peace between our independent nations since 1294 (and lent us the Azores during the Falklands War).

[Oberon Houston]

DavidB:

1. No we can't
2. No it doesn't
3. Needed to prevent protectionism

NB: How do you know? Someone that has done a PhD on this couldn't defend that claim. History has repeatedly taught us, however, that countries that are economically integrated are much less likely to destroy each other in a pointless war compared to those that are riding high on a wave of nationalism.

[DavidB]

Some answers to trueblue's thinking:

"You want to leave before even trying renegotiation?"
There is nothing to negotiate, we want to govern ourselves. I don't believe Ghandhi hung around to renegotiate.

"A number of people...support withdrawal. This amounts to a relatively small minority of the population."
If I could direct you to a recent poll at http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/RMW050101026_1.pdf you would see 24% support pulling out, with a further 35% supporting a free trade bloc only. This is 59%. Then, 59pc of the trade bloc gang support leaving if the EU refuses to free trade.

"UKIPs' showing in the local elections showed us just how popular an issue this is. What a vote-winner!"
Who votes UKIP for local councils, but in EP 2004 they got 17pc.

"If we did take this on as a policy we would be utterly destroyed at the polls. It would be our unilateral disarmament. The parallel is instrucive."
Not at all, the public support this policy PLUS we can be positive...free trade, fair deal for the third world, looking after the environment, maybe a European Commonwealth?

"Unilateral disarmament supporters injected the nuclear weapons debate into every argument, saying it was more important than anything else, believed that if only people heard the message that they would change their minds, that there was a conspiracy to hide the truth and that unrealistic ideological purity was more important than winning the election. And what did those lefties get? Pure Thatcher on their pasty red arses."
We mustn't inject Europe into everything, that doesn't mean we can't have a decent policy. In fact, proposing EU withdrawal would let us create even more popular policies for the repatriated policy areas.

"The only people who want a referendum are the 24% who want to leave."
The 59pc who want a free trade bloc only?

"There is no current constitional issue to debate"
Do we believe in self-government or not?

"there isn't anything like the support required to win"
Yes, there is.

"it would destroy the Conservative party"
I thought pro-EU Tories say there should be more than just Europe policy.

"it would waste a great deal of time and money"
Like the EU.

"it would send the wrong signals to our allies"
So what? They have referendums.

"and it would waste parliametary time best spent on governing the country."
Lots of our laws come from the EU, so there should be plenty of time. Also, it's a one off debate, so why not?

It's time for liberal nationalism a la Dan Hannan; a Garibaldi foreign policy.

[DavidB]

Oberon:

"No we can't [sign free trade]"
Why not? USA is doing so, Australia has done so, Switzerland has, Denmark has...

"No it doesn't [cost more than we get]"
See this from the BBC. The UK is a NET contributor to the sum of 3.8bln Euros in 2003, before the rebate was cut back http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4079316.stm

"[red tape] Needed to prevent protectionism"
There's regulations like crazy, nothing to do with protectionism.

"[EU didn't create peace] How do you know? Someone that has done a PhD on this couldn't defend that claim."
The EU hasn't had to step in between EU nations has it.

"History has repeatedly taught us, however, that countries that are economically integrated are much less likely to destroy each other in a pointless war compared to those that are riding high on a wave of nationalism."
Free trade is good, it lessens the chance of war, thus why we must sign it with the EU and elsewhere. Free trade and markets are creating globalised economic integration, no EU required.

We're talking about political integration anyway. Gov integration will cause anger, blame [many blame the Euro already], and if anything, civil war [see Balkans, Kashmir, US civil war etc]. I'm not saying it will, but might one day.

If you want peace you have to let people govern themselves in their own, historic, cultural and geographical national units, which are the result of organic, natural and truly 'grass roots' evolution instead of centralised committee design; with agreements to peace between all nations and open borders for trade.

[Anne Palmer]

The homes where love and peace should dwell,
Fierce politics shall vex,
And unsexed woman strive to prove,
Herself the coarser sex.

The Statesman that should rule the Realm,
Coarse demagohues displace,
The glory of a thousand years
Shall end in foul disgrace.

Trade shall be held the only good,
And gain the sole device,
The statesman's maxim shall be peace
And peace at any price.

He army and her navy,
Britain shall cast aside,
Soldiers and ships are costly things,
Defence an empty pride.

Europeans on the continent,
Shall rule the narrow seas,
Old England's flag shall cease to float,
In triumph on the breeze.

Taught wisdom by disaster,
England shall learn to know
That trade is not the only gain
Heaven gives to man below.

This is about where we are up to now.
This tale that I unfold
I'll leave the rest for another day
For 'tis better left untold.

[Michael Clark]

Britain has always had a wrong-headed approach to the EU. Here in Ireland, we embraced the EU, made friends and have witnessed unprecedented economic growth. The patronising attitudes the UK and US take to France & Germany is outrageous. France and Germany may have stagnant economies and France does indeed have major racial tensions but overall living standards are better and the gap between rich and poor is not as egregious. The Celtic-Saxon world could learn a few things from "Old Europe".

[Yet Another Anon]

How about EU Abolition Day that would be nice.

Chris Patten really is an Orange Book Liberal Democrat - he is pro STV for the electoral system, pro-Euro, anti-War in Iraq, he comes down as liberal on every social issue and his only possible difference is that he is perhaps rather more emphatic regarding the neccessity to cut public spending, basically he is an out and out Gladstonian Liberal.

[Ted]

There's political theory and political reality. The EU is a fact and a policy of withdrawing from it would lose us any chance of government and would almost certainly be a failure in any referendum.

There are a number of people who see the EU as the number one issue, that affects every other issue and which will eventually destroy this nation. They can show evidence of its persuasive influence and demonstrate the economic alternatives.

But most of us don't see it as the important issue of the day - except when it's the Euro or federalist constitution. To most of us it's an irritation, like traffic camera policy or political correctness in the police. I think of the EU debate in similiar terms to fox hunting - a few vociferous people on either side but most people wouldn't elect a government because of fox hunting but if asked in a poll will express an opinion.

And having voted in the EEC referendum I think the Get Britain Out Brigade don't recognise the difficulty of the negative in campaigning - it's harder to get a change than to keep the status quo.

Take the common fisheries policy - are Aberdeen, the North East and Cornwall represented by Europhobic or Eurosceptics MPs ?

The Tory Party has a sensible middle of the road policy - no to further federalism, no to the Euro, desire to re-patriate parts of the aquis communitaire, interest in improving the freedoms to trade and in building a wider community of European Nations rather than a deeper community of the few. There might be a few more compomises but I think that there is a realistic chance of changing the direction of travel.

It has been for centuries a central plank of British policy to balance the powers of European nations. To cut ourselves off (because thats what it would mean) would significantly impact on our economic well being, on our influence on our nearest neighbours and on our influence outside the community. We might not be a super-power but he UK is still an important international player.

[michael mcgough]

When asked at this morning's Europe Day Cafe d'Europe event by the Austrian Ambassador for an EU joke Timothy Garton Ash responded that "if the EU were a state applying to join the EU it would fail as it is undemocratic"

says it all really

[josef]

Ted wrote:

"There's political theory and political reality. The EU is a fact and a policy of withdrawing from it would lose us any chance of government and would almost certainly be a failure in any referendum."

Government of what? The ungovernable EU or ourselves?

I think it would be a success in a referendum, why else the reluctance to hold one?

Ted also wrote:

"It has been for centuries a central plank of British policy to balance the powers of European nations. To cut ourselves off (because thats what it would mean) would significantly impact on our economic well being, on our influence on our nearest neighbours and on our influence outside the community. We might not be a super-power but he UK is still an important international player."

You can't balance the mess that's the EU by getting sucked into it. But from the outside, well, it's so easy to divide the French and the Germans - just tell the Germans that the French can do it better and see what they can do.

Who is talking about cutting off? This crowd could be played like a fiddle.

[Richard]

"France and Germany may have stagnant economies and France does indeed have major racial tensions but overall living standards are better and the gap between rich and poor is not as egregious."

We overtook France as the world's 4th largest economy (although China kicked us back into 5th) and we are on course to overtake Germany within a decade or so unless they get their act together. I'm afraid higher inequality is a price that may have to be paid for economic growth and lower unemployment (although Japan has proved that this isn't necessarily true).

The point is that we do not want the Franco-German economic model foisted upon us by the EU. Why should we have to contend with the social chapter and the working time directive? Why can't we choose whether or not we want these and other European regulations? Just so that France and Germany can have less competition from more deregulated economies?

[Richard]

"Here in Ireland, we embraced the EU, made friends and have witnessed unprecedented economic growth."

Ireland's economic growth only began to rapidly increase long after it joined the EU. This increase coincided with the significant cuts in Irish taxation - a very Anglo-Saxon policy.

That said I accept there's a possiblity that EU subsidies may have allowed you to fund those tax cuts (which was a far better use for subsidies than whatever was being done with them before). However, the UK does not get significant subsidies from the EU and nor will it.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>We overtook France as the world's 4th largest economy (although China kicked us back into 5th) and we are on course to overtake Germany within a decade or so unless they get their act together.<<<<
GDP per Capita is higher in the UK than in France, Germany, Japan and way higher than India.

China is overhauling a number of East European countries at the moment in terms of GDP Per Capita and India is rapidly growing but both have a decades to go before they are as wealthy as the UK.

The richest countries in the world are Luxembourg, Norway and the USA - the UK is about 15th roughly comparable with Eire although Eire undoubtedly was hugely pushed forward in recent years by agricultural subsidies.

In terms of overall size of the economy it won't be that long before India overhauls the UK as well and China is emerging as the World's Second Superpower already but with populations of over a Billion it is almost inevitable that they will be among the largest economies in the world.

[William]

You cannot get a taxi ride in Dublin and they don't start lecturing you that Britain's made a big mistake not joining the Euro.

And yet Ireland's experienced high inflation (not mentioned) since it joined. Dublin used to be a cheap city - not any more.

House prices are so high that most people have no chance of buying one, and many Irish are forced to emigrate to countries where they can afford to live - like the UK. Their standard mortgage term is now 35 years not 25 like ours is still.

People have gone into massive debt to ride the property boom, or to try to catch it up. The economy is tiring under the load.

If there is ever a property bust, they will be the same as Japan were until recently, locked into years of recession, with hardly anyone not in negative equity.

The Irish have done well with Europe but only by ignoring all the rules. For example, they cut Corporation Tax to 10% which is against all the Tax Harmonisation policies for example.

If Britain had tried similar, the EU would have come down on us like a ton of bricks, but Ireland is a useful play for the EU, and they are small enough that they can get away with it.

Thank God we didn't go into the Euro. We've have had exactly the same mess here.

[Gillibrand]

Democracy- Europe style. Not to consider at least the possibility of coming out now is inexecusable.

[Richard]

"Brussels considers that referendum is not the best way of ratification “because the experience shows, as it was the case in France, that numerous citizens taking part in the referendum do not vote on the subject but on the Government.”"

Obviously they didn't notice about those French left-wingers complaining about it being too Anglo-Saxon. What about the case of the Netherlands? Ah yes, they did actually vote on the subject so they can't be used as an example.

This arrogance is shocking.

[Chad]

"Brussels considers that referendum is not the best way of ratification “because the experience shows, as it was the case in France, that numerous citizens taking part in the referendum do not vote on the subject but on the Government.”"

In short; The people have a nasty habit of getting in the way of the aims of the ruling elite.

Conclusion; remove the people from the decision making process.

[I support withdrawal but would actively support reform if the British people vote for it]

[True Blue]

A few quick comments - I must work today, but I will read and absorb everything when I get time.

True Blue says that we do most of our business with the eurozone. We don't. Of the 30% of our economy that is internationally traded (70% is internal), about 50% is with the EU - i.e. 15% of the total. The figures are always hotly disputed - e.g the Rotterdam effect.

I didn't. I said the EU was our largest trading partner. It is our most important trading partner. I'd be interested to read your sources for the 50% trade tarrif. Please point me at it.

Personally I would like to see us re-negotiate our relationship with the EU altogether, but I realise that it could not be official policy as it would be too controversial and frighten the floating voters.

It is Conservative policy. None of the manifesto commitments could be enacted without renegotiation.

http://www.yougov.com/archives/pdf/RMW050101026_1.pdf you would see 24% support pulling out, with a further 35% supporting a free trade bloc only. This is 59%. Then, 59pc of the trade bloc gang support leaving if the EU refuses to free trade.

You have misread this poll. Only 24% support withdrawal. 56% support Conservative policy (stay in the EU, renegotiate, no further integration), 10% support further integration, and 10% don't know.

And when they asked who has the best European policy, who do they pick? Tony Blair on 28%. (Michael Howard was on 16% and Charles Kennedy on 11%.) Also, YouGov polls gave Labour a big lead over the Conservatives on European policy. If you give people a chance to moan about Europe in a poll, they will, but when it comes to voting...
http://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/issues/europe/
Looking at the way polls are going, it seems that there is now less wish to leave the EU than there used to be. I think this is because the French very kindly voted down the constitution for us.

If someone has time, would they please summarize the reasons (economic, political and international) for immediate withdrawal from the EU, and the alternatives for Britain, and state what the UK could then do.

Finally, I'd love to hear how realistic you think it is for Tory policy to change to supporting EU withdrawal between now and the next election, and the effects of an internal debate spotlighted in the media. How much risk would you be willing to take that the Europhile left will win the next election after such a debate (succesful or otherwise) with us as a one-issue party?

[Serf]

One thing that the Europhiles have totally failed to address is the fact that under current WTO rules, the allowable tariffs on most goods are very low. The EU is forced to make dubious antidumping actions to slow down imports from China to take one example.

When we joined, the WTO did not exist, so our options were very limited. Now even if the French did do their worst, the impact would be limited. Added to that the ability to import food freely, and to be able to negotiate trade agreements with third countries ourselves, and the worst case scenario would be no worse than today.

Meanwhile the domestic economy (the vast majority of it) is subject to Socialist European Legislation. Thats not to say that Blair and Brown wouldn't have made the same damaging rules, but at least we could have rid of them on coming to power. EU rules are unchangeable.

In answer to those who want to reform the EU. You might as well train Myra Hindley in child care. The EU is designed to be a nascent state, like it or not. It can never be reformed, or its reason for existence would disappear.

Finally to those who always claim at such occasions that Euroscepticism has damaged the Conservative cause, they might wish to look in the mirror. It was Europhiles that made the EU a factor in the demise of Mrs Thatcher, despite the nation being more in tune with her. It was John Major's decision to be Europhile, that got the Eurosceptics angry and lead to the creation of UKIP. This despite the fact that there was no great desire for such a move by the party or electorate.

I can happily live in a Conservative Party that wants to try and reform the EU, even though I think its impossible. Such is the nature of big tent party politics. However my choice is pragmatic and I believe that ultimately to be pro EU and a Conservative is basically an oxymoron.

[Chad]

I agree Serf, despite others claiming otherwise, I am sure most of us 'withdrawalists' would happily be 'reformist' is such reform was likely to be possible.

I've gone either further and said I would support the reform approach even though I consider it impossible, if the British people are given the chance to decide and that is the path they choose.

Far from UKIP's positions, as I have noted before there are four not three types of eu views:

1: Europhiles
2: Eurosceptic - want reform and think reform is possible so stay in.
3: Eurosceptic - want reform but think reform is impossible so come out.
4: Europhobes.

I'm sure most withdrawalists here are 3's not 4's which is both conservative and pragmatic.

[DavidB]

Reasons to leave the EU;
1. Protectionist trade policies against developing World
2. Tariffs damage non-EU trade
3. It costs more than we get back
4. Qualified majority voting means that a democratic government may be forced to do something it doesn't want to do
5. QMV also leads to back room bartering and dodgy deals
6. It is too Nationalistic; flags, anthem, day, Citizenship etc
7. It will cause friction with America and a bi-polar world is never safe
8. It can never be democratic as it lacks a coherent demos
9. One size doesn't fit all; why have 25 mediocre comprimised nations in a union when you can have 25 happy ones?
10. EU will not reform, it is too good for France which has a veto and will never give that up, and even then QMV would mean total stalemate

What we could do out of the EU;
1. Sign free trade as Australia, Norway etc
2. Rebuild farming and fishing
3. Save money and spend it better
4. Work positively with Europe instead of always being an awkward partner

Polls;
24pc want total withdrawal full stop
35pc want EU membership but with the EU only as a free trade bloc; the EU isn't a trade bloc, that's EFTA

Policy;
1. 'Renegotiate' means nothing really
2. Policy could be settled by party ballot
3. Withdrawal only by national referendum
4. Free/Fair trade policy to be highlighted
5. Would show Cameron has changed the party
6. We're changing other policies so why not?

[DavidB]

Chad, I think most people nationally are type '3' really. Really I want a European Commonwealth of independent nation states, united in peace, mutual defence, voluntary cooperation, understanding and free trade. I would like to see such a body larger than just Europe, and because it would be non-governmental it could be.

As De Gaulle said; “any form of intégration or fédération must be shunned, instead, the key requisites must rather be concertation, entente and rapprochement because each state has its own identity, its own history, its own language, its own tragedies, triumphs and ambitions”.

This current EU route will just need ever more 'national glue' to hold it together; such as flags, anthems etc, since it isn't an organic naturally created identity. It'll be like America with flags everywhere, symbolism like crazy and the need for a common enemy. Unlike the USA it'll all mean nothing; like why 12 stars on the EU flag? The same as Mao statues in Tibet, Emperor's coins from Rome, Stalin across the USSR. All the same; creating a new identity from the top-down. It's odd how the EU Cafe tried to use Europe's many cultures to sell its project of building a single culture. The EU now seems to be desperately selling itself. See the quote by Spooner below.

Some Quotes:
[On a single language] "there is no obvious language to choose. The EU language with the largest number of native speakers is German; the languages with the largest number of native speakers worldwide are Spanish and Portuguese; French is one of the official languages of three Member States (France, Belgium and Luxembourg). Although English is the most widely known language, recent surveys show that fewer than half the EU population have any usable knowledge of it."

"The Euro is a conquest of sovereignty. It gives us a margin of manoeuvre. It's a tool to help us master globalisation and help us resist irrational shifts in the market." - Dominique Strauss-Kahn, French Finance Minister, The Daily Telegraph, 1st January 1999.

"One essential of a free government is that it rests wholly on voluntary support. And one certain proof that a government is not free, is that it coerces more or less persons to support it, against their will" -Lysander Spooner, No Treason No. II, 1867.

"The time for individual nations [in Europe] having its own tax, employment and social policies if definitely over. We must finally bury the erroneous ideas of nations having sovereignty over foreign and defence policies. National sovereignty will soon prove itself to be a product of the imagination." - Gerhard Schröder, Chancellor of Germany, January 1999.

"From the extent of our country, its diversified interests, different pursuits, and different habits, it is too obvious for argument that a single consolidated Government would be wholly inadequate to watch over and protect its interests; and every friend of our free institutions should be always prepared to maintain unimpaired and in full vigor the rights and sovereignty of the States and to confine the action of the General Government strictly to the sphere of its appropriate duties" - Andrew Jackson, A Political Testament, 1837

"Of course, Britain could survive outside the EU...We could probably get access to the Single Market as Norway and Switzerland do..." - Tony Blair MP - UK Prime Minister, Speech in Ghent, 23rd February 2000

“we shall call it harmonisation and co-ordination to soothe British feelings” (Gerhard Schroeder, 2002).