Cameron distinguishes GWB from GDP

Talking about a subject Conservatives have rarely broached, David Cameron will today say that the Protestant work ethic should be replaced by a "modern vision of ethical work". He believes we should talk not just about Gross Domestic Product but about General Well-Being too, hoping to triangulate between the issues by fomenting strong relationships and progressive employment practice in order to boost productivity:

"The traditional response of the right – that government can't do much about all this and shouldn't try – is inadequate. But equally, the response of the new left – that government should regulate the specific details of working life – is too ineffective. It produces unintended consequences that end up damaging our competitiveness. It's vital to create a space... which stands firmly between regulation and indifference. I refuse to choose between the intolerant impulse to right every supposed wrong by passing new laws, and the coldly amoral refusal to even take a view on the actions of others."

The Guardian reports it as wrong-footing Gordon Brown, Sky News as going for the Feel-Good Factor, and The Times as drawing a line under Thatcher.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

Really fantastic stuff. I've felt for too long that as a party in the thrall of a Thatcher mythology we have been the fool who "knows the price of everything but the value of nothing".

I've posted on here before that the "politics of happiness" is the coming debate. I think increasingly people will look for a sense of well being as much as simply paying the rent. How content are we as a society, I can't help but feel that as a whole we are an increasingly despondent island which is having an insidious effect on all sort of policy areas.

[JP]

This is the sort of thinking that could only come out of the mouth of a millionaire southerner. Good luck in Manchester and Liverpool and Newcastle and......

[Annabel Herriott]

Are not us "gritty northerners" allowed to be happy, and enjoy well being, low cholesterol levels, and all the other benefits JP is implying that yon "metrosexuals" darn Sarf are supposed to be having??

[JP]

Annabel Herriott? Henry Edward-Bancroft? I rest my case. By the way did anyone see Dominic 'man of the people' Grieve on the box over the weekend? I thought his bow-tie was rather fetching.

[Ted]

This is a bit motherhood and apple pie - yes it is the quality of life that matters but what exactly is governments role?

Governments have two levers - legislation & fiscal.

Legislation produces unintended consequences and I have a lot in common with the late Eric Forth in thinking we need less legislation, compently enforced. Legislation in this area also tends to put costs on businesses while providing them with little commenserate benefits.

Then there are fiscal levers - these either move costs to the state or impose additional burdens through targeted taxation.

If neither of these is to be used we are then left with exhortation - useful but without supporting action not usually effective.

Dave, I like the story but I would like to know what you intend to do, rather than whats good to hear.

[Chad]

Surely leaving it up to employers to maintain a fair balance is like leaving it up to rail companies to play fair with price increases?

What happens when an employee asks for shorter or more flexible hours to spend time with their family, improving their general well-being, and the boss tells them to bugger off?

OK Mr Cameron, you believe in GWB. How is that currently failing in Britain, and what do you actually propose to do solve it?

[Martin Curtis]

This is spot on. I have been talking about the need for "responsible capitalism" for some time, this surely is a huge step in that direction.

[David Belchamber]

I believe that DC is absolutely right in his assessment of the practical effects of the two polar opposites - "unintended consequences" from the new left and "the government can't do much about all this and shouldn't try" from the right.
The tricky bit is to make his "third way" a practical reality and especially, as JP suggests, to make it work in the north.
As a northener myself, I feel that sturdy independence is a virtue and a conservative one at that. If, perhaps by the gradual implementatioin of local democracy in action, people's quality of life does improve, then we will over the years gain more support nationwide.
Sadly, in itself, quality of life is very unlikely to prove a vote winner in the North at the next election. It will require less airy-fairy attractions.

[Edward]

Great positioning, great soundbites, great way to convince the papers we're different now, Cameron. "Modern Vision of Ethical Work" though? Fatuous, meaningless, vacuous tripe.

[Ted]

I get confused about Northerners in comments on this blog:

They are sturdy independents, straight talking, no nonsense...
or
They are Labour dependents, living on Southerners tax, voting Labour to get more benefits...

Our job in the North seems to be about winning back people who went to New Labour or have gone to the Lib Dems. These don't fit the first stereotype. I'd like to understand what made them move leftwards before proclaining what we need to do.

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

There is amble evidence both, empirical and otherwise to show that there is real and tangible poverty in Britain today. I've no doubt that an incoming Conservative government will tackle this issue with a vigour that has been missing over the last 30 years.

However, there are equally large numbers of people for whom poverty is not so much material but emotional. It is right that as a modern government in waiting we are sympathetic to what Peter Mandelson would call "middle class concerns". That is to say, quality of life, work life balance, child care and a sense of well being.

[wicks]

OK i have to admit i'm getting a bit bored of all these vague speeches now, in so much as its hard to have any sort of opinion on them.

Cameron is talking a really good game but I really want to know now what he's going to DO to give us this utopia.

[JP]

Ted, are you suggesting northeners don't pay tax? That they scrounge off the state? I was under the impression the Conservative Party was changing, modernising, abandoning the sterotypes of the past? Are you Nicholas 'man of the people' Soames in disguise?

[Ted]

JP

I was just pointing out that in one thread on the Unfair Kingdom the North was being discussed as a nest of welfare addicts then suddenly its a hardy breed of independents. Suggesting that perhaps the sterotypes are rubbish.

[TimC]

This is clever - by putting quality of surroundings as a goal, we can then oppose Prescott's old plan to concrete over large parts of England.

[william]

Can we do this as an and? GDP and GWB, not one or the other.

These are false contrasts. Building a better society will involve a certain amount of wealth creation along the way.
Businesses grow best which provide contentment and happiness to their people. So do economies.

Make contentment a key value of business. Don't imagine that by reducing employment, investment and activity that people will become happier. As a rule people like to be busy in a cause or an activity they believe in.

If private wealth were allowed to increase by the aboliton of IHT for exmaple, the people would have more choice - to stop working for money, and work for charity or political ends, for example. If everyone is a wage slave, paying the mortgage, stressed and stuck in traffic trying to move, then they will be discontent.

If companies control all the wealth, that is what will happen. By allowing individuals to become welathy, different kinds of communities could come into being, where other facets of humanity can flourish.

Wealth creation will be needed as the underlying factor in improving quality of life. Don't kid yourself. Aim for GDP and give people the choices they need for GWB by cutting tax and getting government out of their lives, and by allowing people to accumulate wealth, reduce the power of big business to dominate everyone.

[Esbonio]

It sounds to me like a mixture of a statement of the obvious (everybody wants a better quality of life) and more blather. Businesses (particularly small ones) are so worn down with regulation that they have little scope to cut their employees more slack. It is of course a lot easier for the tax funded public sector to
take a more holisitc approach towards employees. It must also be said there is more scope for large corporations (of which Dave has expereince) to do the same. It is though as I have noted a lot tougher for smaller employers. Perhaps Dave should focus on loosening things up for the latter and then we might have more and better jobs for all.

[Richard]

GDP is a flawed measurement anyway because the measurements are tilted towards consumption at the far end of the production chain. Anyway, pedantic point over.

Cameron was just on Radio 2 saying "there's more to life than making money" whereupon my mother said "that's easy to say when you've got it!".

To repeat other posters, what does Cameron plan to do? If he's not going to pass legislation to bring about this work-life balance then he is wasting his time. He's right about the unintended effects of regulation so I'm pleased he's not proposing any. I just don't see what else he expects to do though.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

I'd just say that it's important to remember that although we work the longest hours in Europe we don't have particularly high productivity, or happy workers. Family time gets squeezed out, stress rockets, and with ridiculous house prices and high consumer debt people are extremely vulnerable to unemployment and interest rate rises. There's nothing wrong with the protestant work ethic, but if you look a little closer at that ethic, it has some pretty stringent things to say about personal responsibility for your actions, debt and thinking of others. Most companies don't have an ethic which means anything, protestant or otherwise, perhaps there would be some benefits for them if they did.

Governments can't do anything about any of these problems, really. It's more to do with our work/family culture, the way we build cities so that people live hours from their work. Collectively we've all helped to create these problems, partly by refusing to to take a view on the actions of others and partly by letting the government get away with so much.

[Sean Fear]

I don't actually think there's very much governments can do to increase "happiness" per se - partly because happiness is impossible to measure objectively; partly because different people will be made happier by different things; and partly because one of the main determinants of happiness is the quality of our personal relationships - something which is wholly outside the influence of legislation.

IMO - governments should only promise things that they can deliver - and happiness isn't one of them.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

Governments can't do anything about any of these problems

[Chad]

"although we work the longest hours in Europe we don't have particularly high productivity, or happy workers"

Henry - surely you mean 'because' not 'although' - then you clearly have an area to focus on that government can get involved in.

It might just be me, but I've got a feeling that most people might just prefer to have more leisure time and less work time. They aren't actively choosing the latter.

What is the point of Cameron even raising this if he has no plans to introduce or reduce legislation to tackle the issue?

Cameron's preach/proposal balance seems out of kilter.

[Richard]

"Collectively we've all helped to create these problems, partly by refusing to to take a view on the actions of others and partly by letting the government get away with so much."

Agreed. But we live in an age of non-judgementalism and dependence on the government. It's going to take a huge cultural shift to turn things around.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

The point I'm making is that the sci-fi picture of a world run by global corporations wouldn't appear to be possible. Business people wouldn't want the hastle of having to deal with ideas of principle or ethics. In a funny way I suppose they like being treated like naughty children by the state, doing only what they can get away with, but I don't think that's good for them or for the wider community. I'm pretty sure that the board of a local company could put run rings 'round the local council, if they put their minds to it. Perhaps the big role of the state as the protector and the carer has made businesses be less caring, which has ultimately hurt business since the state has been able to stigmatise them for this percieved lack. In a world where there is less evidence of the state it might also mean that businesses have to take a more holistic approach to the communities they operate in. For instance, if the state took less of a role in education, businesses would still need qualified workers, so they might have to part fund colleges or internships ect ect.

[Hey Ho]

Clever old Dave, making all these telling points contra materialism, and going to a party at Beckhamingham Palace all at the same time ....... Repeat a thousand times: Cameron is a Fake.

[Annabel Herriott]

Dear JP
I may have a poncy name, which I had no control over, but my grittyness is beyond reproach! 45 years in the NHS would get me a pass mark in grit I believe.

[PassingThru]

Well said Sean Fear. This is simply wishy-washy unidentifible, undeterminable, unmeasurable pick as you please rubbish. So we focus on and 'improve' one issue (not sure how) there will always be 101 other issues the opposition can focus on. Its a fools errand.

Next he'll be saying vote Conservative and go to heaven...

[AlexW]

People who are condemning Cameron for uttering platitudes are rather missing the point: the whole object of the exercise is to expunge the stereotypical loadsamoney Thatcherite from the public's collective memory.

[Sean Fear]

I'm a good deal more interested in substance of what governments are capable of, Alex, than in spin.

[Stephan]

DC: "It's vital to create a space... which stands firmly between regulation and indifference."

The most important thing at this stage would be to define this space rather carefully. If it's not government action, then what is it? Some sort of glorified Public Relations Space, rather like the 'bully pulpit' which the Editor has in the past approved of?

How would a real live business navigate such a space? Would it look for clues in the speeches of political leaders, such as Cameron's 'Chocolate Orange' pronouncements, to guess what they should do?

Should businesses do what they think is right, or what they guess politicians think is right? They already operate in the 'court of public opinion', so what is this new space?

It's hard to object to the notion that there should be a public debate about the nature of society and the role of business within it, but we already have such a debate. I think most of us already "refuse to choose" between amorality and intolerance, even without Cameron's leadership. So what is David Cameron now proposing?

[Andrew James]

This looks like a snazzy attempt to show off some post-Thatcherite post-materialism... but DC should be careful how much of this he churns out. This won't convince anybody (North or South) that the Tories are sufficiently 'compassionate' to get into government, especially in the absence of any policy. Its vagueness and 'yummy-mumminess' is frustrating for those of us who elected Cameron to be honest and radical. He cannot afford the policy review to have a similarly unimpressive outcome.

The fact remains, that especially up here in t' North, for those living in the rows of terraces and high rises money is still very important - council tax, national insurance, benefits, etc. These are the people who were left behind by Thatch and who are ignored by this post-materialist message.

I think this effort from Cameron also shows how cautious the Party still is, when it comes to the economy. There is nothing wrong with tax-cutting and deregulation, except for the fact that Labour have made it impossible for us; by claiming that we will cut investment in public services. This simply does not have to be the case.

[William]

Governments can't do anything about any of these problems, really

I agree. But they do a lot to undo GWB by taxing people, and over-regulating.

One reason we have low productivity/higher stress in Britain is our poor record at capital accumulation. Other than buying houses, and playing the property game, Brits don't save and invest enough. One reason for that is we have the highest rate of IHT in the world at 40%. The world average is 20% approx.

Cut tax and regulation, Dave. We'll work out the rest.

[Stephan]

William, you put it really well. Unless a government has a very clear evidence-based idea of what it can do to improve GWB, it shouldn't do it. That's what worries me about this latest wheeze: what exactly does DC know about the GWB of other people? How is he going to find out?

And when he has found out, how will he apply this? I'm thankful he's ruled out more regulation. If he could also rule out whimsical judgements about what is or is not ethical business, I'd be even more grateful. But then there wouldn't be anything left for the triangulation.

It would be nice to hear what he might do to help British business become more productive, because unproductive business (as William has already pointed out) leads to more misery than chocolate.

[Derek]

I agree with Sean on this. We must be careful not to get involved with issues unless we can offer solutions. Mood music is all very well, but we can only hope its doing the business with the public. Those who take a deeper interest want more substance.

[Matthew Oxley]

I agree with what others, including Richard have said on the subject.

To people I talk to here in the 'North', they will scoff at this type of rhetoric and say he only says this because he is a millionaire already. This is, unless, of course, he has genuine plans to do something about the issue.

I really don't know what Cameron could do to legislate happiness without reducing competitiveness of business. I don't think our businesses would react well to 35 hour weeks and 8 weeks annual leave. If he has genuine ideas, however, I'm all ears.

[Chad]

I really don't know what Cameron could do to legislate happiness

Well he could save parents from having to work all hours to pay for school fees by supporting grammar schools.

[Serf]

The best thing that a government can do to increase our happiness is to stop telling us how to live, stop distorting the housing market so that we can't afford to buy, stop letting dangerous criminals out of jail early, stop sacking nurses in favour of diversity coordinators, stop choosing how we educate our children, in general, give us less to worry about.

[Andy Peterkin]

Where are B'Stard and Sir Greville when you need them>

[Chad]

"stop distorting the housing market so that we can't afford to buy"

Hi Serf,
Would you advocate delegating responsibility to the Bank of England to include house prices in its inflation target?

[David Belchamber]

I have always believed that government should exist in this country to create a benign environment for businesses and individuals to thrive in. DC's stated aim is effectively to do just that, because when you are thriving you feel a sense of GWB.
Largely as a consequence of the actions of this government, there is now one important section of the community that finds itself caught in a very difficult position without any sense of GWB.
I refer to 18 to 30+ year olds who could well face (i) the repayment of a student loan, (ii) little prospect of being able to afford to buy their first home, and (iii) equally little prospect of being able to contribute significantly to a pension fund.
The main reason for this is the property market. According to The Telegraph (20.05.06), only a decade ago houses were worth only 2.7 times the average wage. The article states that today average house prices are now about 5.6 times more than average earnings.
That situation is causing a great deal of angst among a large number of young people (many of whom have probably never voted before), so it would be well worth DC considering practical ways of providing this section of the electorate with a sense of GWB.
As other contributors have said, we now need a bit of substance from DC to back up the good ideas.

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

Interestingly the government used to a publicly funded "Campaign for Work-Life Balance" which, I notice, is now default. Cameron could do worse than re-establish this excellent arm of government.

[Henry Edward-Bancroft]

David - a very important point. I hope this is an area not ignored by the next (Conservative) government

[Chad]

Dave has already proposed that the young should all start moving in with one another as a solution.

The answer is to prevent runaway house price inflation, not shoe-horn as many young people into a single house a possible.

[Goldie]

To be honest, this kind of stuff makes me puke. I guess I'm not the demographic.

[Yet Another Anon]

I misunderstood the title and so posted a comment that pertained more to this thread in a more General Comments bit, I assumed that GWB referred to George Dubya Bush.

Anyway it seems an odd venue to give such a speech, business leaders after all from a job perspective are interested in fulfilling their shareholders wishes which mostly are to make a return on their investments - I don't think actually business leaders are any less aware that wealth isn't everything, in fact obsessions with material possessions go right through the world especially in Developed Countries and the USSR was as guilty of materialism as was the USA at times in the past.

[Biodun]

Largely as a consequence of the actions of this government, there is now one important section of the community that finds itself caught in a very difficult position without any sense of GWB.
I refer to 18 to 30+ year olds who could well face (i) the repayment of a student loan, (ii) little prospect of being able to afford to buy their first home, and (iii) equally little prospect of being able to contribute significantly to a pension fund.

Too right David. I am one of the unfortunates caught up in this demographic and have just had to change jobs from a so-called "Bluechip" just so that I can get a contributory-pension.

I am sure there are many like me who do not have parents who are able to provide money for a deposit, or who have a family home nearby they can squat in until they save up enough to buy their own place.

[Hmmmm]

Ugggh arrrggghh hruuuuuur.....sorry, was just throwing up. Its pretty hard to take this from a millionaire, whose going to inherit millions more, and is married to a millionaire, who is going to inherit even more than him.

Money makes some of us quite happy actually Dave, and even happier when we made it ourselves. but then you wouldnt know about that would you?

Oh and beauty in other things? - well Dave some of us have read books, and listen to music and know about art, and know the price of everything and the value of everything as well, without some snot nosed old etonian, ex bullingdon public school boy telling us where we are all going wrong.

[Chad]

From the BBC today:
High earners in debt firing line

"But large mortgages, rising school fees, keeping up with the Joneses and the increasing availability of credit have made debt a normal part of life for many of the middle class."

[Nigel C]

Tim C says focusing on Quality of Life is a clever way of opposing Prescott's plan to concrete over the south of England. There is a slight problem in that the East of England Assembly which put forward one of the housing plans has a Conservative majority and is promoting the Plan on the basis that it will "improve the quality of life for all". You might see a theme in my recent posts that until we sort out Conservatives on Regional Assemblies we run the risk of serious divisions and mixed messages.

[James Maskell]

I thought for one terrifying moment it said GMB!

[Stephan]

"business leaders after all from a job perspective are interested in fulfilling their shareholders wishes which mostly are to make a return on their investments"

Exactly. And to do that, to perform well as a company, they need motivated and productive employees, and they need to avoid incurring the displeasure of the community in which they operate. They are therefore already incentivised to be good corporate citizens, without the (often inept) intervention of politicians.

[Hmmmm]

Is it just me or is Dave starting to sound Preachy? how long before he utters the words....back to basics....bets anyone?

[James Maskell]

He'll say it in a different way, without using that term, but, I do agree with you.

[Dick Wishart]

Whinge,whinge,whinge,moan,moan,moan, I see the hangers and floggers have crept out of their coffins early tonight.

[frank aylesford]

oh shades of pre-government blair! what meaningless waffle! And yes, he can afford to make this sort of comment given hos own financial status

[Hmmmm]

The more I think about it, the more cameron is sounding like the private eye vicar blair. telling us all where we have gone "personally" wrong. What we should do as individuals on the environment, on how we should seek happiness, on what we should feed our kids, padded bras, chocolate oranges etc etc...and the horrifying thing is, and this is coming next, is that he thinks its government's job to MAKE IT HAPPEN...its for your own good children, really, do as youre told....BACK TO BASICS 2, THE RETURN OF THE UNDERPANTS....

[Ted]

1 - oh God I'm in agreement with the CamSceptics - more beef Dave less dressing BUT

2 - In defence of DC he gave the speech to the Google Zeitgeist Europe conference - unlikely a hard hitting scial reform speech would have gone down well.*

*for the UKIP & BNP visitors who might se Zeitgeist as an unwarranted intrusion of foreign European words it means "spririt of the age"

In which case Dave is really on the button in capturing the developing desire for better quality of life - work/life balance, less crime on steets, clean air and green issues etc. Now if only the state would stop taxing me so much, hadn't changed the law on early retirement (some of us want pensions before we are 55) and I could realise my assets and retire to the banks of the Kafue to wake up to hippos snorting & roaring....

[Jack Stone]

Reading three quarters of thses comments you would think you were on a Labour supporting site not a Conservative one.
David Cameron is perfectly right in what he says. We must look to improving peoples quality of life not just preaching about money all the time.
People on this site need to learn and learn quickly that if the party is to be successful it as got to be about more than tax cuts, Europe, bringing back hanging and being nasty to illegal immigrants.
Don`t we want to try to appeal to the best in people by bringing out the best in ourselves.
I want this country to be the best and to feel good about the country.Having a Conservative government will only make this country what it should be and Cameron as the ideas not just to win but to make things better.

[Hmmmm]

Young Jacky Stone...so cute and cuddly...where do you get off telling me how to live my life?? keep it to yourself mate...you sound like some kind of Tony Robbins automaton...I dont need you to tell me this stuff, I need you to get me value for money for my taxes, to defend me from my enemies, and deal with global trade and diplomatic issues. I dont need you telling me what kind of underpants to wear thanks, I can make those decisions for myself...

[Burkean]

Haven't seen the speech yet but did he really call for the end of the protestant work ethic? That says simply that hard work and self discipline lead to happiness and prosperity. I can't imagine a more conservative maxim. What on earth is wrong with it?

[malcolm]

Whose Tony Robbins Hmmmmmm?

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Henry - surely you mean 'because' not 'although' - then you clearly have an area to focus on that government can get involved in.<<<<
China certainly hasn't got where it is through people working short hours, surely scrapping limits on working time and abolishing the minimum wage as well as general labour market deregulation are really important steps towards boosting the UK's economy - scrap The Health & Safety Executive & the dti and focus on safety in industry, employers have a duty of care anyway, why not leave this up to private prosecutions and prosecutions under general criminal offences not specifically employment related ones.

[Ted]

China got where it is today through an artificially low exchange rate, a huge under-employed but skilled workforce, a willingness to trample peoples rights and an approach to politics somewhat nearer 18th Century France than the 21st Century.

The protestant work ethic surely promised rewards in heaven not on earth. Its not the 21st century Zeitgeist is it?

[buxtehude]

Dick Wishart, Jack Stone... What would it take to get you to engage your brains? People argue very reasonably here about what he has said, and all you can manage is vacuous put-downs. This is a website for debate, not for Stepford Wives to practice their curtsies.

[Richard]

"Dick Wishart, Jack Stone... What would it take to get you to engage your brains? People argue very reasonably here about what he has said, and all you can manage is vacuous put-downs. This is a website for debate, not for Stepford Wives to practice their curtsies."

One word: Trolls.

[Sean Fear]

The protestant work ethic surely promised rewards in heaven not on earth. Its not the 21st century Zeitgeist is it?"

The point about the Protestant Work Ethic was that anybody who worked hard, behaved honestly, and gave generously was glorifying God just as much as the Priest or Monk who spent his time praying (George Herbert expressed this viewpoint very well in one of his poems).

Max Weber took the view that this attitude helped to stimulate capitalism and industrialisation in Protestant countries. Groups such as Quakers and Evangelicals performed their jobs well, gained a reputation for honesty and fair dealing, and avoided drinking and gambling, and thus prospered. The fact that they were legally discriminated against by both Catholics and Anglicans, by being excluded from universities and political life, actually worked in their favour by making them devote themselves to commerce.

[buxtehude]

Richard, of course you're right. Idiotic of me. I'm not sure about DW, but Jack Stone can only be.

[Hmmmm]

www.tonyrobbins.com

check him OUT!!

We can all find our "balance" with millionaire's Dave and Tony!!!!

[TomTom]

Life Work Balance - so I hope Dave will introduce this into all government departments where morale is unusually low. No more weekend working in the NHS so people can be at hom with their families, no more Sunday opening for shops, Mps to have long parliamentary sessions so they don't get bored in those over-long vacations/

Yes society could be transformed - it is clear Dave isn't ba Protestant Ethic Man - better to inherit than create. World of Wooster opens up for the Tories.

[Julian Morrison]

The economic stuff has a lot of impact on work-life balance. All the year until tax freedom day could have been spent skiving work and playing with the kids, without affecting your take home pay, if tax were zero. This year it's June 3. Meaning, you just missed January through May's worth of home life, in order to buy the NHS and the infinite welfare state.

[William]

As well as tax issues, food costs 50% more here than in the USA. Furniture 75%. TV's 66%. Sorry to mention the reason. The EU. That's without taking VAT into account which adds another 10% relative to US sales tax.

VAT fraud and paying too much to foreigners for goods they would happily sell for less costs us up to 20% of our economy according to Patrick Minford. And how about this one? 10% of our exports and imports are considered not even to exist - they are false trades to steal VAT.

We pay top tax, then get ripped off for what we buy. We get robbed by fraudsters, and the government says not a word. If there's anything left as we pass away, that's grabbed at 40%.

Here lies the answer to the quality of life. Get rid of all the nonsense - which buries us in regulations, operates a legal system none of us can understand, favours criminals and allows 600,000 immigrants to enter the country every year.

For improvemet of general well-being, quit the EU. Get our legal system back up and running, our own tax system, our own regulators and our own government. Simple. You can do it, Dave. Better Off Out - and I'm talking health the No 1 ingredient of GWB, mental, physical and moral.

[Christina]

Apparently, the Craiglist website that Dave Cameron praised in his speech, is used by swingers.

[carol42]

Am I alone? I just cannot take to David Cameron and God knows I have tried. I admit I would not have voted for him myself but figured so many Conservatives could not be wrong.I think he is rather odd looking with a strange mixture of being patronising and petulant. I think most of what he says is vapid nonsense and the A list is a joke, at least in part. I could see what he was trying to do in winning over the opinion formers but there has to be more than that. I would hace liked David Davis who remains impressive but was not against skipping a generation, for emample I am very taken with Ed Vaizey who comes accross as entirely relaxed and normal with quite a sense of humour. Anyway I expect we are stuck now and he might even win but I can't say I am very happy.

[Alexander Drake]

Carol42, what WOULD make you happy?

[Ted]

Christina

Craigslist.org certainly isn't which is what DC was talking about, though some clever guy has grabbed the craiglist.com address as a porn one to get people like the lazy reporter who didn't catch the name correctly

[carol42]

Alexander - A leader I could feel more comfortable with, though I do like his wife and since she picked him maybe there is more to him than I have so far seen! I hope so.

[James Maskell]

I didnt quite understand the point about why the Protestant work ethic being wrong...could someone please re-iterate it for someone whose forgotten everything they learnt in A Level Sociology? Why is Cameron saying that we shouldnt follow the Protestant work ethic...

[Peter Harrison]

Ted

Wrong, I'm afraid. Craigslist.org and craigslist.com are actually the same site. It includes a "personals" section which in turn includes a "casual encounters" category. However, this is only a very small part of what craigslist does. To call it a porn site (or a swingers site) would be on a par with calling the Sunday Times a dating magazine on the grounds that it includes personal ads.

[Christina]

Hi Ted,

The article did NOT say it was a porn site (in the Mirror) it stated it was a site used by swingers, and not being lazy, I checked it out and found that it has a very large personal section, with a lot of that kind of thing.

If you go to craiglist.org and click on the 'Best Of' link, you will find most of it is to do with meeting people for sexual activity.

[Christina]

Peter,

If 'The Times' had a 'best of' link and most of the 'best of' section was about meeting people for sex, the description would be accurate, even though there are other things there.

[johnC]

Luther and Calvin, the leaders of the Protestant Reformation, both upheld the value and dignity of work. They said that it was praiseworthy to work hard and diligently and seek maximum profits. They both rejected the medieval hierarchy of vocations which placed religious contemplation and the monastic life as the highest ideal, and said that all work however secular was equally valid.

I suppose that Cameron is saying that this view is now outdated and we should not aim at maximum profit or maximum economic production, or be judged by those criteria, but that we should seek instead a broader target of 'general wellbeing'.

This seems to me to be a rather anti-competitive approach and might be interpreted as condoning laziness and navel-gazing. I would prefer him to say that as a nation we should seek excellence in every area of national life, but that excellence is not just limited to economic performance. This would be for me a rather more positive and aspriational approach.

[Peter]

Cameron is becoming a liability. If I understand him, he is now saying that money is less important than lifestyle. Only a rich man could say this. For hard working families money is fundamental to maintain any sort of lifestyle. This country is drowning in feckless hedonists who blame the government for everything and themselves for nothing.
In my view, all welfare should stop, period. We would then save £125 billion annually to spend on
the armed forces, prisons, nuclear energy, hospitals, schools and tax cuts for the hard working .
The Attlee government destroyed the work ethic in this country. Children should be taught in school that if they don't work, they will starve - and it is up to them and their own families, not the taxpayer, to bale them out.
As John Calvin said in the 16th century ( the basis of the Protestant work ethic which has created the wealth we enjoy today)- " Povery is sin, sinful idleness".

The Conservative Party needs to put the backbone back into the country.

[Jack Stone]

If governments cannot deal with society`s ills I don`t know who will.
The trouble with this country at the moment is it is suffering from a lack of confidence. People believe problems will never be solved and things will never get better. This is wrong.
I believe every problem can be solved, the ills of society solved and this country can be one that is worth living in.
It is up to the party to get out there and convince people that things can get better and that the unthinkable is possibe.We must instil a sense of confidence in people once more.
I am afraid the attitude spoken of earlier of basically as long as i`m alright sod the rest is an attitude that belongs to yesteryear. People want to feel that there in a society that cares and they want to see those at the bottom have there lot improved. The party must embrace this not just because they will lose if they don`t but because its right.

[Jack Stone]

Peter as I am sure never seen or experianced real poverty in his life. There are those who are poor through no fault of there own and if you believe otherwise you are a fool.
John Calvin`s thought are from another age and they deserve to stay there. They have no place in a modern, progressive country.
Personally I didn`t think there was anyone who believed such crap anymore.

[malcolm]

Blimey Jack!

[Ted]

Peter, Christina

spelling makes a difference as does lazy journalism. The story yesterday was Dave had mentioned craiglist/craigslist but forgotten the importance of the suffix. A Mirror journalist obviously picked this up and has got it wrong.

craigslist.org (note the s after craig) is the site (or rather federation of sites) DC talked about. It's a well known site for classified ads (which does include a personals section) which has won quite a few awards for its innovative use of the web.

craiglist.com however (without an s after craig) is a blatant XXX site.

[Mike Christie]

"If governments cannot deal with society`s ills I don`t know who will."

Are you sure you're in the right place? Does Gordon Brown have a blog?

[Helen]

Well, I don't know Jack Stone, the crap you refer to is something a lot of people believe in: work for you living, create your own space, bring up your children, do the best for your family and those around you and do not expect hand-outs from the government. What is actually wrong with that? Why do you, in your superior wisdom, think it is crap? The trouble is that governments and politicians who want to run our lives and dictate our happiness or life-work balance (isn't that phrase a little out of date - soooo last century) make all of that difficult if not impossible by taxation and regulation. It would appear that you are either one of them or would like to be one of them.

If DC really wants to make sure that people climb out of poverty he and his team should start working on tax reforms that will take the low earners out of the tax system and will encourage people to save and to build up pensions.

[Peter Harrison]

Craigslist.co.uk is also a porn site so the suffix is important as well as the spelling.

And Christina, I agree that a proportion of the "best of" is about meeting people for sex, but a lot of it isn't. There are some quite funny rants about incidents in posters' lives. In any case, as the "best of" page points out, the postings are there because readers have nominated them, not because craislist endorses them. Go to a listing and you will find a button allowing you to nominate it for "best of".

So, are they a porn or swingers site simply because they don't censor that stuff? I don't think so. One can argue that they should censor postings but that is a different discussion.

[Richard]

"Peter as I am sure never seen or experianced real poverty in his life. There are those who are poor through no fault of there own and if you believe otherwise you are a fool.
John Calvin`s thought are from another age and they deserve to stay there. They have no place in a modern, progressive country.
Personally I didn`t think there was anyone who believed such crap anymore."

And people still debate with this clown as if he's not a troll?!

[Richard]

"I believe every problem can be solved, the ills of society solved and this country can be one that is worth living in"

I wasn't aware conservatives were utopians.

Get out.

[Ted]

Richard, you may think he's a troll but I think this once I agree with him.

I might not use c*** to describe the following but that's what it is "Children should be taught in school that if they don't work, they will starve - and it is up to them and their own families, not the taxpayer, to bale them out.As John Calvin said in the 16th century ( the basis of the Protestant work ethic which has created the wealth we enjoy today)- " Povery is sin, sinful idleness".

As is that description of the Protestant work ethic - the Quakers and non conformists who had a huge role in the Industrial revolution were not Calvinists.

[Dick Wishart]

Troll calling, with brain engaged. A Troll according to my dictionary is a friendly or mischievous dwarf so its not that bad really.
Serious debate Richard! with words such as throwing up, crap, preachy, return of the underpants, stepford wifes ( dont get that one).
The problem with some of the bloggers on this site is that they wont debate at all, if DC says something that is not quite what they want it just gets slagged off as nonsense. Thats not debate thats taking a reactionary point of view and refusing to move from it no matter what, true debate is both criticism and praise,not just sitting there unable or unwilling to realise that there might just be a different way of doing things.
I am not a Cameroon, in fact i campaigned and voted for Davis, however i am prepared to listen and debate any issue DC comes up with, and where necessary show my disapproval. I will not however just sit around and shoot down everything he says, i have an open mind and am prepared and do, use it constructively.
In my opinion his speech about GWB needed to be said, its better to 'work to live'rather 'than live to work'.As one of the more staid generation it worry's me to see so many younger people today suffering from depression,anxiety,and nervous exhaustion, something that was unheard of in my younger days. So it seems to me that the live to work syndrome is fast becoming reality, in this respect i can see where DC is coming from and totally agree with him.

Stepford wife signing off(Still dont get it)

[Richard]

Ted,

It was his use of the oft-repeated mantra "modern, progressive country" that made me think "clown". It's like he's playing the stereotype of uber-moderniser. He once called me "nasty" because I mocked the idea of positive discrimination by asking him if he thought it unfair that hermaphrodites weren't sufficiently represented in Parliament. Then there was telling right-wingers to "sod off", calling David Cameron "the best leader since Margaret Thatcher" (might be true but the context in which he said it was clearly OTT). Not to mention:

http://www.ukipforum.co.uk/post-103814.html&highlight=#103814

Incidently, while the exact wording of Calvin's thoughts might be inappropriate, the general way in which the Protestant work ethic has been interpreted over the years is certainly not out of date i.e. work brings prosperity. Just think of all the labour saving devices that were developed, ironically, due to hard work.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>As one of the more staid generation it worry's me to see so many younger people today suffering from depression,anxiety,and nervous exhaustion, something that was unheard of in my younger days.<<<<
They have always been in existence, naturally they are increased because life is more complicated than it used to be and people who are either as a result of background or inheritance are more prone to such conditions are treated with Anti-Depressants and Tranquilisers and so are less likely to kill themselves.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>are treated with Anti-Depressants and Tranquilisers and so are less likely to kill themselves.<<<<
In fact as many are genetically related people with such conditions living and breeding are more likely to produce offspring with genetic predispositions to such conditions, it's the same with people with problems having children - help such people having children and the result is a higher proportion of people who have difficulty having children and underweight babies are likely to have more health problems as adults and are more likely to have genetic problems to pass on to the next generation - maybe the Norsemen leaving babies outside overnight on the day of their birth to see if they survived or not had some good things to recommend it.

[William]

The values of business need to be redefined to suit changing circumstances. Human activity of all kinds needs a purpose to be effective.

In the 16th C, alleviating poverty was a sufficient purpose for work. In the 1970's and 1980's business was valued for the jobs they created, and increasing monetary wealth.

Business activity now needs to target satisfaction of work, better coordination with home life and reduction of stress. This needs a cultural changeover from a totally competitive idea of business, where one person's advance is seen as another's retrogression, to a more cooperative emphasis, where people feel as if they all in the game as one.

Selecting the type of people in an organisation is one way to achieve this. Some are more naturally content by nature. Others are more naturally jealous and discontented. We need to promote contentment and demote jealousy, if we want to reduce stress in our lives.

Thatcher did not run businesses, but she inspired poeple to buid a new economy after the collapse of traditional manufacturing by changing the cultural climate making business more confident.

Cameron could likewise inspire a new softer gentler social climate in which gentler less competitive people can thrive and do better than before in the dog eat dog era. New Labour and the Blairs have proved to be the ultimate dog-eat-dogs. It's time for a change.

Women particularly are sensing the need for a change, which is where Cameron's growth in support is coming from.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Business activity now needs to target satisfaction of work, better coordination with home life and reduction of stress. This needs a cultural changeover from a totally competitive idea of business, where one person's advance is seen as another's retrogression, to a more cooperative emphasis, where people feel as if they all in the game as one.<<<<
The responsibility of private business is to increase returns for their shareholders, social engineering is not their responsibility - Home Life is the responisibility of the worker and only of interest to the employer if it adversely affects the way they do their job, I don't think it should have anything to do with politics at all.

Government's responsibility is in taking strategic decisions regarding the economy and the environment and relating to strategically important services to the public and in maintaining social order, stopping criminal activity, and defending the country from internal and external enemies which really comes under strategic influences

[Jack Stone]

I totally object to this nonsense that poor people are poor because of there own actions and the idea that they should just be left to rot in there own sorry lifes.
Most people are poor through no fault of there own. What we need to do is to give those who can help themselves the opportunity to get out of there poverty and a safety net for those who through no fault of there own can not fall.
To descibe those struggling to feed themselves and there families like something you have just scrapped off the bottom of your shoe is totally offensive.
Calvins thoughts were first said in the sixteenth century and they were not only suited to that wicked time they deserve to stay there.

[William]

YAA - I agree with your 'and' but there is no need to exclude value of the human kind from business.

On the contrary content business cultures grow faster and last longer than discontented ones. It's not social engineering. It's business looked at from a lateral viewpoint.

Cameron's onto something.