Up to 25% of voters would consider voting for the BNP

The last few days have seen a flurry of stories about the BNP:

• In last week's Spectator - in an article entitled The Scream of the Forgotten Voter - Peter Oborne went canvassing with the BNP in Dagenham and the local Labour MP told him that the extremist party could pick up six council seats.
• Yesterday's Sunday Telegraph revealed that Labour minister Margaret Hodge believes that eight-out-of-ten white voters in her Barking constituency are threatening to vote for what the newspaper called "the far-Right party".
• Today, on BBC Online, there is news of a Joseph Rowntree report which finds that up to 25% of people would consider supporting the BNP.

Why is this happening?

Here are a few possibilities:

• A leader in The Sunday Telegraph puts the BNP's reported rise down to Labour's failure to control immigration and a perception that Labour favours immigrants.  The leader concludes: "The problem is that these people have not been consulted about the vast social experiment in which they have been forced to participate. Nor can they discuss their anger without being labelled "racist". Until the Government - and the opposition parties - confront the issues raised by immigration, directly and honestly, the poison of the BNP will continue to spread."
• With the Cameron-led Conservative Party turning down the volume on the immigration issue disgruntled voters have no champion amongst the establishment parties.
• A shortage of affordable housing for young familiers in places like Dagenham and Barking.  [The Adam Smith Institute today publishes a report that recommends the redevelopment of 3% of farmland over ten years, in order to yield 950,000 new homes.]
• Iain Duncan Smith, interviewed on the Today programme, pointed to a collapse in the quality of life in very poor areas.  Labour was spending money on these "difficult communities", he said, but the money wasn't tackling the poisonous cocktail of drugs, crime, graffiti and a shortage of manual jobs.  There were no short-term fixes, he warned.
• The BNP is carefully targeting these "difficult communities" and there's also a new reasonableness from their spokespeople.  Dr Phil Edwards was interviewed by Jim Naughtie on Radio 4 at 7.50am this morning.  He and the BNP hold the same noxious policies but they have learnt to speak more moderately and persuasively than in the past.
• If the BNP is successfully targeting white, working class areas the political establishment has largely abandoned them.  That is certainly IDS' view.  He told Today listeners that the sophistication of the main political parties during General Elections and the way they targeted hundreds of thousands of voters in marginal seats had led to the political abandonment of communities that were now prey for the BNP.

Comments

[Jew90]

"Today, on BBC Online, there is news of a Joseph Rowntree report which finds that up to 25% of people would consider supporting the BNP."

As well meaning as the report obviously is, it makes the mistake of saying that there is an underlying support for the BNP in the UK. Is that true? I don't think so. It has given the BNP free propaganda to sway the 'focus group' derived figure of 25%. Irresponsible. I'd also like to know why the 25% of 'powerless and frustrated' voters didn't feel 'powerless and frustrated' enough to vote for the BNP at the recent Euro or local government elections. I mean the BNP did really badly after all, they now have less seats than they did in 2004 and the big European 'breakthrough' never materialised. So much so all Nick Griffin could claim was there was 'vote rigging'.....the first sign of a party on the ropes.

Why are these BNP positive stories out there in the media at the moment? When the party is crumbling with internal strife and losing its key target seats?

[Jack Stone]

I come from Barking. The people of Barking are not racist they just don`t think any of the main parties are giving them solutions to there problems and are turning to the BNP in despair.
It is not primary to do with immigration. Its to do with crime, poverty, bad public services lack of decent housing and a perception wether its true or not i don`t know that immigrants and asylum seekers are being given more help than they are.
The BNP and others on both extremes will see there support collapse when people are convincved that they can find solutions elsewhere.
That is the task the policy groups set up by David Cameron have to face and they need not just to find solutions for the middle classes problems but the disadvantaged as well.
Personally I am convinced Cameron and co are up to the task of finding solutions to the terrible problems people face in areas such as Barking.

[UKIP Fiend]

...."Im not racist, but..."

If I had £1 for every time I had heard this on the doorstep I would be a very wealthy man!

[Andrew Woodman]

...."Im not racist, but..."

That phrase fills me with trepidation and dread as you know the next line uttered will be a racist comment.

[Chad]

I remember in the 80's when I found out that my nan voted NF because they were the only party that bothered to come to her flat in East Ham and talk to her about the things that were concerning her.

Contrast:
Words
Built To Last: The more we trust people, the stronger they and society become.

Actions
The Camcons have Maude as chairman, the man who tried to remove the leadership vote from members, and have proposed a state-funding plan to insulate themselves even further from the people.

The CamCons do not trust the people and see the issues that concern them as a bit too "unpleasant" to address and unfitting of the fluffy don't-overfill-your-kettle camcon way, and so the people, as this article suggests, will look for action somewhere else.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Just goes to show that the country is moving to the right; not the left.

What we need is a revitalised Tory party that will stop immigration and deal firmly with social problems.

As Michael Howard said 'Prison works'

And as Lynton Crosby said 'Its not racist to want to control immigration'

If the BNP ever throw off their Nazi image (unlikely) or a non-racist psrty like UKIP moves to the patriotic right (very likely) Cameron and his limp-wristed band of pink liberals will be right on the scrapheap.

I've got a question for Jack Stone.

If you come from the old, East End, how come you are so full of yuppie PC hokum?

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

"Andrew Woodman"

That phrase fills me with trepidation and dread as you know the previous line uttered will be some PC socialist tripe dressed up as "Wine Bar Toryism"

[Deputy Editor]

A-C T, keep your tone constructive please.

Interesting report on the BNP's local election campaign by the anti-fascist group Searchlight.

[John Coles]

Jack Stone wrote:
""....they need not just to find solutions for the middle classes problems but the disadvantaged as well""
Not necessarily the disadvantaged but the working class that used to be a of mainstay of the Conservative party.
What was that Mr. Cameron? Who are the working class? Well, they are a patriotic bunch, instinctively conservative and have been neglected by the middle class main parties for a long time - in fact they are G. K. Chesterton's "the English". Oops, sorry, I shouldn't have used that word, it's almost racist isn't it? Anyway, If you try to make contact with them you might get an encouraging response. True they prefer a fry-up to a plate of fettucini and bitter to vino verde, but they believe in the nation and its interests and, if you can control the europhiliacs in your party, you might find that that would make an invaluable centre plank of Conservative party policy.

[Margaret]

Even the Pakistanis are supporting the BNP. Heard Abdul myself on the Today programme.

I think the BNP will do very well in the local elections because people perceive the main 3 parties as all the same, not listening, and certainly doing nothing for Britain plc.

I do not think that Dave will ever be PM, he is perceived as Blair Mark 11, and why should the voters vote for a NL clone?

Anti Cameron is right, the people are ready for a move in the right direction.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

If the Tory Party wants working class votes it needs to understand the grievances of the working class.

Years ago the Tories had huge support in Liverpool and Manchester (likewise the Unionists in Glasgow) This was because they were not afraid in those days to address the grievances of the 'Orange' vote.

Then, long before Cameron was in nappies, some CCO smarta**e decided to "move beyond the core vote" Sadly the Catholics stayed with Labour and the Prods deserted the Tories.

Result - total collapse of Tory support in northern cities.

[Biodun]

I'd also like to know why the 25% of 'powerless and frustrated' voters didn't feel 'powerless and frustrated' enough to vote for the BNP at the recent Euro or local government elections.

1) July 7th Bombings
2) Danish Cartoon Protests.

These two events were very threatening to Londoners in particular.

Immigration is a perfect example of where the "And Theory" of conservatism works. Champagne socialists are the ones who claim that we are racist when we talk of managed migration.

As Compassionate Conservatives, I would expect any discussion on immigration to highlight

1) the sad tale of the Chinese Cockle Pickers or the 51-odd who suffocated to death in a van in 2000/2001. As examples of the system failing the immigrants. Many people have forgotten the latter story.

2) how we are decimating the 3rd-world of its much-needed middle class, especially its doctors and nurses

3) that those middle-class people who are most in favour of immigration, have the most to gain - cheap nannies, cleaners and plumbers that the average working class person would still find unaffordable.

If we only ever focus on how uncontrolled immigration is hurting "us", however accurate we might be, we risk sounding selfish.

Compassionate Conservatism is also about helping those least able to help themselves, and that includes misguided people who come here, thinking the streets are paved with gold and later find themselves trapped in cycle of poverty.

[Andrew Woodman]

A-C-T, What policy platform would you follow if you were leader to win the 'working class' vote then?

I find that the communities are being targetted in the way IDS says. There is an old mining village near me with people saying 'they' (whoever they are) come here and nick our jobs. Interestingly, there are next to no ethnic minorities or immigrant workers in the village. The BNP it would seem, encourage them to blame everyone else for their predicament other than themselves.

Labours push for people to go to university doesn't help either as it creates the image that vocational subjects and jobs are inferior and an admission of failure.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Good point Biodun.

By all means let's throw in a few 'compassionate' arguments to stop immigration. It's the end result that matters.

If these immigrants had a shred of patriotism and compassion they would be indeed be helping the helpless back at home.

However, turning to those immigrants legitimately here, I'm not the first to notice that many "ethnics" hold exciting traditional views on many issues.

Tories need to recruit these people to support a new "family values" campaign.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

>>A-C-T, What policy platform would you follow if you were leader to win the
'working class' vote then?<<

Follow the successful policy of the past. There is always conflict in any community. Identify the "conservative" faction, bring it on side, and support it in its demands to have its grievances redressed.

Working class East Enders are as reactionary as they come. If we don't hoover them up the Nazis will move in.

[Chad]

1)or the 51-odd who suffocated to death in a van in 2000/2001.

You are so right Biodun. I remember a Sri-Lankan aquaintance in mainland Europe who although having a phd was selling flowers in pubs and had arrived in one such van with stories of those who had not made it.

Asylum should be about the most vulnerable not a survival-of-the-fittest system based on first being about to reach our shores.

Just goes to show that the country is moving to the right;
No, imho, it is about backbone.

We need our politicians to work internationally to devise a consistent approach from preventing people from having to flee their countries for their lives in the first place, to ensuring that the most vulnerable are protected first, not only if they manage to live through a van/boat trip etc.

In short, you need a paired-policy fusion; the 'and' approach of controlled economic migration on one hand with a consistent international approach to asylum on the other.

[Sean Fear]

One shouldn't look at the BNP in isolation. People are voting for a lot of minor parties, such as Greens, UKIP, Respect etc. , or else switching off voting altogether, because the three main parties could come from Mars as far as they're concerned. I'd say that there are quite a lot of factors behind the rise of the BNP and other parties.

1. Mass immigration.
2. Globalisation.
3. The threat from militant Islam.
4. The erosion of democracy in favour of government by eurocrat and quango.
5. A political estbalishment(in its widest sense) whose priorities seem weird to much of the population (people like Sir Ian Blair are the quintessential members of that estbalishment).
6. Family breakdown, and a general sense that the country has lost its way over the past half century.

[candy]

I wonder how many urban middle class Labourites would be happy if, over the period of a year or so, the middle class areas (and they do exist) were suddenly filled with cockneys.

The cockneys then took over their wine bars and turned them in cockney pubs with jambouries and singalongs, then the bistros started to close down and become Pie and Mash shops. Everywhere you looked there were pearly kings and queens doing the lambeth walk and white vans driving along pumping out the music of Chas and Dave.

First the middle class urbanites would gather in their living room and speak in guilty, hushed tones about the problem saying things like "I don't mind the cockneys but..."
Then as quick as you could say "ciabatta!" I think you would see a new phenomanon called "Urban middle class flight."

I'm sorry for being flippant on such a serious issue, but If you disenfranchise a group of people they will look elsewhere for political leadership.
The working class English (sorry I ment mongrel half breeds) have done pretty badly out of this Labour government, I know because I am one.
The consevative party needs to adress the issues that worry these people, they are a massive part of the electorate.
and the historic allegance that the Labour party has enjoyed with them has been severed forever by Blair and cronies.

[Biodun]

If these immigrants had a shred of patriotism and compassion they would be indeed be helping the helpless back at home.

Err..Actually most of them are, Anti-Cameron Tory.
According to The Economist,workers in Britain send over £1 billion a year back to their countries of origin, and that's only through formal channels.

Tories need to recruit these people to support a new "family values" campaign.
By "these people" I presume you mean people like me. i.e. non-white people.

I'm pretty sure that the sensible readers of this blog can see through your snide and mean-spirited comments.

No Tory worth his or her salt would ever talk about stopping immigration completely as you suggest, as it goes against the free-market principles that the Conservative Party holds dear. We talk about "managed migration", not "no immigration".

If anything its quite clear that you are not an Anti-Cameron Tory, but an Anti-Cameron BNP supporter as you are clearly confused as to what this party stands for.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks...indeed.

[wicks]

The BNP are quite an authoritarian party, in some respects they are quite left wing on a lot of issues (I realise how limited left/right wing is in these situations but I'm sure you get the point). That's why they appeal to people who identify themselves as working class. I don't think it's really realistic look at these voters as potential Conservative voters, in a lot of case they have as much hatred for the Conservatives (who also failed them) as do they for New Labour.

[Donal Blaney]

My concern with the coverage that the BNP is getting is that it will not discourage people from voting for them (which is obviously the sensible aim of the Rowntree Foundation, the BBC, the government minister who spoke this weekend etc) but that, instead, it will make a number of people now feel that it is acceptable to vote for them.

The concerns that are driving disaffected electors into the arms of the BNP and UKIP need to be addressed by the Conservative Party. The reason these people seem to be wanting to vote for fringe parties is because their concerns are being ignored, their views are being denigrated and they feel that they have no hope. If the Conservative Party - by speaking in a language of optimism and hope - can address those concerns, it can garner the support of those who are either not voting or who support the BNP and UKIP.

Party and image modernisation, speaking about the environment and addressing the concerns of UKIP/BNP voters are not mutually exclusive.

[candy]

Wicks
You talk about The working class as an abstract group of people removed from your life, maybe you don't get out and about with them much but I do.
You are right in some respects thought, working class people involved in unions will never vote tory that's definitely true, but to write off an entire group of people because of some preconceived notion you hold about them is surely counter productive.

[Andrew Woodman]

What is defined as working class now anyway?

[candy]

oh dear!

[wicks]

Excuse me son? You were the one who started chucking abstract terms like "working class" about, don't have a go at me for speaking at your level.

[candy]

clam down my dear
Perhaps I came across more agressive then I intended.
All I'mn saying is if you want the tories to be elected as a government, and at the same time halt the BNP you might want to consider winning over some of the workin classes.
It's not that controversial is it?

I might remind you that the headline of all these stories is about white working classes voting BNP, so to not talk abot the White working class would get you knowhere.

[Alexander Drake]

If the Conservative Party sought to hoover up some of this 25%, what affect would it have in marginal seats?

I suspect most of these voters are disproportionately found in safe Labour seats, where it is harder to turn seats around.

Moreover, the approach to these voters would probably repel potential swinging voters in marginal seats.

Pursuing these voters weakens the Party's claim to being a broad-based party of the centre-right. Doing that seems to weaken the Party's credibility as an alternative government.

[wicks]

I don't view these people as likely conservative voters though, certainly no more so than large chunks of the labour vote, lib dem vote and non-voters whose "values" are much more in line with ours than people who think voting for the BNP is a good idea.

[Donal Blaney]

You rightly focus on the conundrum facing the Party - how can we obtain the support of those disaffected voters who lean towards the BNP and UKIP (particularly on issues such as law and order, immigration, Europe, taxes and access to health, housing and education) while at the same time obtaining the support of those who are Tories by instinct but New Labour voters at present.

I think it is possible to ride both horses at once. I THINK it is...

[Jaz]

Never trust the BNP.

Is a message I learnt from my parent who were asian immigrants. Perhaps these 25% of white people need a political party against them too... Perhaps they don't understand what it's like being talked about like a inferior race.

However, this is a problems CAUSED by the Tory party, the right-wing have dropped off and will be costly to the party in the shortrun. We will see the extent of the damage in May. Unless Cameron starts a strong on immigration and strong in europe card campaign soon. (I hope)

[Richard]

I would advise people to read the sections in the BNP's 2005 manifesto concerning crime and education. These sections strike me as containing the sort of policies one might find in a right-wing Conservative manifesto (although they don't say anything about greater independence for schools).

My point is that the BNP are adept at combining their racialist rhetoric with mainstream or populist policies in other areas. There is a risk that if more people become aware of these policies, elements of the middle classes may start to swing towards them. Suffice to say though their section on the economy has a left-wing tint as do most far-rght parties.

Would the following quotes look out of place in a hypothetical manifesto written by the Daily Telegraph?

http://www.bnp.org.uk/candidates2005/manifesto/manf6.htm

"We will ensure that the main priority of the police be returned to that of the prevention and punishment of crime, and we will abolish all politically-correct distractions from this mission."

"We believe in 'Restorative Justice' - all fines imposed by the Courts will be given to the victims not the government. Criminals will be forced to repair any damage they have done in the community."

http://www.bnp.org.uk/candidates2005/manifesto/manf8.htm

"We will reopen every closed grammar school, and will allow every community that wants such a school to open one."

"We will eliminate nonsense subjects and reallocate funding and the time of pupils to traditional subjects like reading, writing, and maths."

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

>>If anything its quite clear that you are not an Anti-Cameron Tory, but an Anti-Cameron BNP supporter as you are clearly confused as to what this party stands for.<<

I'll ignore that slur.

I suspect I was working hard for the Conservative Party and studying Tory principles before you ever set foot in this country.

That I don't support the Nazi BNP is clearly obvious from my statement that I enthusiastically welcome the recruitment of ultra-traditional non-whites to the party.

You may be an non-white, but it's not at all clear that you are a Tory.

[Account Deleted]

I have to say that I think that the immigration issue is the one area we have broad support behind Tory policies not Labour ones (i.e. the 76% statistic about people favouring tight limits on immigration on this site which came up a few weeks ago)...

The fact it makes various liberal Tories slightly queasy should not be enough to stop it. The alternative is the rise of the BNP and all this entails.

We should be talking to the people who are poorest in society (including those from ethnic minorities who are already here, but predominantly the white working class, which is a very large section of society we have ignored for a long time. And we need to be seen talking to them. A lot of people in the middle class who came from the working class identify with those they left behind - and vote Labour because of this.

How on earth can you claim to be compassionate without caring for those who are at the bottom of society? And one of the things they are angry about is that no one is listening that they think there is too much immigration and they are bearing the brunt of it.

We should also be making the housing issue more of a priority - the idea that local communities will be able to vote to relax planning laws in return for communal infrastructure would be a good idea - and would expand housing and thus make it more affordable rather than Gordon's nonsense schemes. Ditto the fact we would allow people to transfer the assistance you get when you buy your own home - which would help release housing stock, and allow people to choose where they live.
And crime - we should have a zero tolerance policy and clamp down on anti-social behaviour. In fact, we should have a lot to say to these people...and hopefully once our policy review is over we will... unless some liberals find such ideas distasteful...

Having said that, many middle class people look down at working class people and only have compassion for the environment and people with a different skin tone...

[Biodun]

I suspect I was working hard for the Conservative Party and studying Tory principles before you ever set foot in this country.

I was born in this country.
Like many other non-white people.

Perhaps you should learn the difference between ethnic minority and immigrant before you start your weak arguments.
have been a big waste if you think we would outrightly halt all immigration.

[Biodun]

...on a side note,
I won't be here to respond to anymore of your ill-thought-out comments, ATC, as I am going canvassing.

If you really care about the party, perhaps you should do something productive instead of sitting behind your computer, sniping.

[Midnight Blue]

Instead of the rather yawning debate about how much we should talk about immigration (we shouldn't go heavy on it in my opinion, the whole thing from campaign 05 needs a massive rethink!) has anybody else sat back and considered how terrifying and sickening this statistic is?

I really don't care if it's a "considered" vote or a "real" vote, and I don't really see how the state of the main parties can lead this amount of people to even think about supporting people with such thoroughly repulsive opinions. It actually makes me feel quite sick.

[Richard]

"I don't really see how the state of the main parties can lead this amount of people to even think about supporting people with such thoroughly repulsive opinions. It actually makes me feel quite sick."

You are assuming that those 25% of people are all racists who agree with the BNP's agenda. I would argue that to a large extent it is a protest vote. One should also point out how the BNP have managed to moderate their image in the past few years in an attempt to go mainstream, as well as adopting populist or mainstream policies in areas aside from immigration (see my post above).

[hayek's grandad]

We often (rightly) complain about BBC bias against the conservative party, yet people here appear to be advocating bias against the BNP. Who should decide which biases should be allowed?

Before anyone says anything silly I abhor the BNP and their policies so let's not go there.

[Sean Fear]

It's better that people who are bitter and disillusioned have a party like the BNP to vote for, rather than resort to violence to further their aims.

Our political class also needs to think long and hard about what they're doing wrong, that should lead to people voting for such a party.

[candy]

The number saying they support the BNP is growing, why is this?

It must be the labour party's immigration policy.

Housing problems and social deprevation exist in pockets all over the country but the BNP seems to only make inroads into areas of recent mass immigration.

25% is a hell of a lot of people to write off as just racists thugs. The hardcore BNP are obviously complete scum, but I don't think they represent even 5% of the country let alone 25%.

What will it be in ten or twenty years time?
This is more worrying to me then any other issue.

[Account Deleted]

"I have to say that I think that the immigration issue is the one area we have broad support behind Tory policies not Labour ones (i.e. the 76% statistic about people favouring tight limits on immigration on this site which came up a few weeks ago)...

The fact it makes various liberal Tories slightly queasy should not be enough to stop it. The alternative is the rise of the BNP and all this entails."

Followed by

"I don't really see how the state of the main parties can lead this amount of people to even think about supporting people with such thoroughly repulsive opinions. It actually makes me feel quite sick."

I rest my case... feeling over thinking...how postmodernism has even taken over www.conservativehome.com...and the point is we need to think about what is going wrong that we need to change

[G-MaN]

Well far right parties always rise when nations have left -wing governments. But if people want to vote for those scumbags they can... Its up to us (Tories) not to let this happen.

[Derek]

I would like to make several observations. First the council elections tend to have a low turn-out of around 35% so I assume the 25% who say they would consider voting BNP is out of the 35%, which means about 9% of the population. It is still a high figure, but considering is not the same as doing. There is also a feeling among many voters that council elections are not crucial and so some may consider a protest vote. this happened in the last EU election when UKIP scored much higher than usual. The recent trial of Nick Griffin may also be a factor as it gave him a lot of high profile publicity, particularly as he was acquitted. The decision to retry him on some of the charges is i.m.o a bad one, as it will give him publicity all over again.

[Donal Blaney]

This could all be spin, of course. When the BNP polls less than the 25% that the political class is now focussing on and instead polls at 5-10%, the media will say what a disaster the local elections have been for the BNP. How cynical we have all become since Alistair Campbell arrived in Downing Street...

[Henry Whitmarsh]

So the considered ConHome opionion is "Yes, the BNP are scumbags but they have a point"

Like the KKKlan in the USA, the BNP give people someone to blame/hate for being poor. It is as simple as that. Don't have a job? Don't have good housing? Your town as prosperous as those in other parts of the country? Do you need someone to hate? Well, then vote BNP and we'll get rid of all the immigrants taking your jobs, houses and dreams away from you.

Has anyone wondered why the BNP heartland are in white working class northern communities? These are precisely the communities which have been left behind whilst the SE has experienced rapid economic growth?

Sean, globalisation stops wars and is largely responsible for the low price of consumer goods we all enjoy. Ever bought a pair of trainers or a TV? Then welcome to the global economy.

I think we need to say that sectarian, racial or class warfare is very much not a conservative passtime. Yet this is what the BNP are in favour of. They are not conservatives, they are fascists.

If I were a BNP supporter reading ConHome, I wouldn't be to displeased with what I was hearing. If that makes me a winebar tory then so be it.

[Andrew Woodman]

I'll buy you a glass of chablais sometime Henry, as I appear to have been labeled as being in that camp as well.

[Richard North]

In your closeted little worlds, I do not believe you have the first idea of what is happening in the real world.

One of the pivotal issues was the February Muslim demonstrations, and in particular the failure of the police to react during and after the event.

The BNP response was inspired, producing a leaflet comparing the treatment of that demonstration with the police response to the Countryside Alliance demos, underlining the "us and them" theme that is increasingly dominating "real" politics.

When push comes to shove, and you get down to talking in the pub, the issues that come up most often are things like speed cameras, parking fines, taxes - and especially council tax - the uselessness of the local councils on simple things like litter collection and dusbins, none of which features highly in the Boy King's agenda.

As far as immigration is concerned, the main aspect of this is a variation of the "us and them" theme, with the perception that the ethnic communities get a better deal and an easier ride.

Politicians - all of them - are seen as a waste of space and, as Hannan remarks in the Telegraph today, "When we politicians can no longer effect meaningful change, we become parasites. Ceasing to be authoritative, we become contemptible."

"Contempt" is the defining issue. The Boy King's fine words, and all the policies you like, will not even begin to impact on this.

[Donal Blaney]

The way to convince those who want to vote for the BNP because their housing, health and education services are in decline is to sort out those services. Insulting them for having the views they do is pointless. It may make one feel better and indeed morally superior to them, but it doesn't help anyone. Far better to address the underlying concerns of all voters and then the superficial cheap points that they make will cease to be relevant. Or maybe I am a Utopian?

[Henry Whitmarsh]

"The BNP response was inspired" - I'm glad you think so. I think they're racist scumbags.

Ethnic communities get an easier ride? What utter nonsense.

"speed cameras" - They won't get you if you're not breaking the law.

"parking fines" - read the warning signs, buy a ticket perhaps?

A fascist is a fascist in my world, your world or any other world. OMG, at least the Germans in 1933 had the first world war as an excuse, you're suggesting we should vote fascist 'cos of a few bits of litter and high council taxes. If you're going to sell our democracy down the river you could at least have a slightly better reasons than those. Oh, but I forgot, they present conservative party are wine drinking, wine bar frequenting, too young, public school educated, liberal, closet socialist, europhile, overeducated, london dwelling ect ect ect.......

Didn't we have this last week with UKIP?

[Editor]

Henry: people on this site appear to me to be trying to understand the rise in support for the BNP - noone is advocating voting BNP and so I ask you to be more careful what you imply by your posts.

[Andrew Woodman]

'because their housing, health and education services are in decline is to sort out those services.'

The most bizarre thing is that their houses are probably be fixed by East Europeans, their doctor from Europe or Asia and their kids are being taught by an Australian. People being conned by the BNP need this argument to be put to them. Who is there to do it though? There are next to no Tories in the areas, Labour dare not go there and Lib Dems like talking about working classes but wouldn't dream of talking to them.

[Richard North]

Point made: In your closeted little worlds, I do not believe you have the first idea of what is happening in the real world.

Response: "speed cameras" - They won't get you if you're not breaking the law.

Game, set and match.

[candy]

I think it's not all down to depravation and poverty

Just because someone is working class it doesn't mean they're poor. In fact all the working class people I know have decent jobs.

I think working class people often see there way of life and culture under attack from both sides (from a middle class run media and the issues raised by New Labours immigration policy)

I am 100% against positive decrimination, but if your going to have it then perhaps adding a working class element to Camerons gold list would help them feel more represented.

[Still Laughing]

Even by the standards of Cameroonie trolling, the efforts of "anti-Cameron Tory" are risible. Maybe the deputy editor would like to look back at pots made on other threads by Cameroon cheerleader "Suggestion" and see whether his ISP is the same as ACT's?

Please, anyone bothered to look at the internet on bank holidays, don't be taken in. "Anti-Cameron Tory" is as pro-Dave as they come.

[Northern Tory]

"With the Cameron-led Conservative Party turning down the volume on the immigration issue disgruntled voters have no champion amongst the establishment parties."

I highly doubt that these 'disgruntled voters' thought of us as their champions in any case. I thought the entire point about the BNP was that they weren't establishment, whereas we in particular are perceived to be so.

In reference to comments about our vote in Northern cities, I suspect most of the decline was due to demographic changes rather than the decline of the Orange vote (although it obviously had an effect, it seems to me like it was more specific to certain areas - the vast majority of our city vote would still have been middle class). If we want to get back into the Northern cities where we are missing at the moment - Newcastle, Manchester - then Cameron is going the right way about it. In Newcastle, the wards we have any chance of winning are middle class areas that the LibDems hold - and the reason they aren't held by us certainly isn't that we aren't right wing enough.

[Richard]

"Yet this is what the BNP are in favour of. They are not conservatives, they are fascists."

I would be careful about throwing the word "fascist" around. That is a tactic of the Left. Reading through the BNP's manifesto nothing comes across as distinctly fascist or excessively authoritarian (the BNP are anti ID cards and favour referendums for example). It seems to be a mishmash of populist social conservatism and Old Labour socialism combined with the primary negative element - racialism. It is possible to be racist and not be fascist - note the South African Communist Party in the 1920s.

Now, one could argue that the BNP leadership are closet fascists but we need evidence. Otherwise people will just ignore us if we shout "fascist" all the time.

[Andy Stidwill]

One of the saddest things which has happened in British society over the last 50 years is the way in which the middle-class has changed its opinion of working-class people.

They used to regard working-class people in a mostly positive light, who could be taught to better themselves through education, etc.

Now, they hold them in complete contempt - for failing to appreciate the marvels of immigration, for instance.

This fracture in the relationship between the classes is one of the main reasons people are now starting to support the BNP.

[wicks]

Immigration is not a vote winner, we've had two general election campaigns based around it and how tough we're going to be, and people might say they prefer our policy, but compared to many other issues they don't consider it that important.

The BNP base their campaigns by spreading misinformation and taking things out of context, you beat them by showing them up, not by accepting they are right and adopting tougher policies that are not needed, go against conservative principles, and won't make a jot of difference to peoples lives.

[Richard]

"Now, they hold them in complete contempt - for failing to appreciate the marvels of immigration, for instance."

It may also be down to the fact that the "respectable" working classes have all but died out and been replaced by chav culture.

[Deputy Editor]

"Still laughing", Suggestion is a different person to ACT. Why do you say the latter is "pro-Dave"?

[Still Laughing]

The hamfisted parody of 'traditionalist' opinions by ACT bear all the pawmarks of a pretty yucky inmate of Clutha House.

[Editor]

Peter Kellner of YouGov was on Sky News earlier and was saying that, almost without exception, the BNP lose seats the election after they win them. They are able to win seats under low turnout first-past-the-post races - particularly when the other parties divi up the mainstream vote. They feed off grievances to win but they are too incompetent to then govern effectively.

[Annabel Herriott]

So are you saying that no "respectable" working class women "stone" their front doorsteps anymore? Or that respectable working class men have stopped growing prize leeks down the allotments???

[Richard]

"So are you saying that no "respectable" working class women "stone" their front doorsteps anymore? Or that respectable working class men have stopped growing prize leeks down the allotments???"

I'm pointing out that the majority of the working class used to believe in the value of education and not getting on the wrong side of the law. Nowadays these people are in a dwindling minority.

[candy]

"It may also be down to the fact that the "respectable" working classes have all but died out and been replaced by chav culture"

That's rubbish
but you'd think it was the case with todays media.
How does the BBC represent the working class? Don't say Eastender.

[Andrew Woodman]

This is why I asked what is 'working class'. Some suggest that those from the respectable working classes of a generation ago mentioned above, have moved to middle class, and the majority of the rest have gone into what is commonly characterised as the chav underclass. It's a tricky term to define.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Well sems I was wrong about Andrew Woodman. Dear andrew who promises to buy wet fellow-traveller Henry a glass of 'Chablais' (sic) has clearly never been inside a wine bar in his life.

Meanwhile, on the Henry front:

>>"speed cameras" - They won't get you if you're not breaking the law.

"parking fines" - read the warning signs, buy a ticket perhaps?

A fascist is a fascist in my world<<

Yes Henry. I think we could call speed cameras and parking fines two of the most unpleasant faces of the fascist tyranny that is Blair's Britain.

Glad you agree.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Well sems I was wrong about Andrew Woodman. Dear Andrew, who promises to buy wet fellow-traveller Henry a glass of 'Chablais' (sic) has clearly never been inside a wine bar in his life.

Meanwhile, on the Henry front:

>>"speed cameras" - They won't get you if you're not breaking the law.

"parking fines" - read the warning signs, buy a ticket perhaps?

A fascist is a fascist in my world<<

Yes Henry. I think we could call speed cameras and parking fines two of the most unpleasant faces of the fascist tyranny that is Blair's Britain.

Glad you agree.

[Richard]

"That's rubbish "

Not in my experience at school it wasn't.

[candy]

If working class people can move into middle class... what is middle class?

Working class people can earn money, be educated and some of us can even be lucky enough marry middle class girls, without however loosing our working class identity.

[Henry Whitmarsh]

Actually I prefer drinking at home, hic...

[Andrew Woodman]

A-C-T, For medical reasons I'm a teetotal so don't tend to visit the non existent wine bars of South Derbyshire.

Exactly Candy, what is working and middle class? If Prescott thinks he's middle class, then I expect everyone is.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Well sems I was wrong about Andrew Woodman. Dear Andrew, who promises to buy wet fellow-traveller Henry a glass of 'Chablais' (sic) has clearly never been inside a wine bar in his life.

Meanwhile, on the Henry front:

>>"speed cameras" - They won't get you if you're not breaking the law.

"parking fines" - read the warning signs, buy a ticket perhaps?

A fascist is a fascist in my world<<

Yes Henry. I think we could call speed cameras and parking fines two of the most unpleasant faces of the fascist tyranny that is Blair's Britain.

Glad you agree.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

Posted by: Still Laughing

Please, anyone bothered to look at the internet on bank holidays, don't be taken in. "Anti-Cameron Tory" is as pro-Dave as they come.

Are you all right?

[Andrew]

"I would be careful about throwing the word "fascist" around."

No need to be careful, since it's quite applicable. The undercover videos of BNP meetings show that, with the SS items and swastikas on clear view. They only split with the National Front recently, and then only for reasons of political appearance.

[Richard]

"No need to be careful, since it's quite applicable. The undercover videos of BNP meetings show that, with the SS items and swastikas on clear view. They only split with the National Front recently, and then only for reasons of political appearance."

The problem is that the leadership then sacks these people thus giving the impression that it is trying to change. Under Tyndall it made more sense to use the term "fascist" because their plans for economic and political change were similar to the BUF's policies in the 1930s.

As for a split with the National Front, I'm not sure what you're talking about. They were attacked by the NF in the 1980s (ironically when Nick Griffin was a leading member) for not being "radical" enough.

[Mark O'Brien]

There's nothing at all surprising about this. The BNP come across as the way out of the silent depression in the poorest communities across Britain where all the vices of society have come together for generations now. They're trying to take advantage of the despair and misery in these places by saying that these are problems best solved by racial segregation and all kinds of policies that are nothing more than a Nazi-Stalinist composite.

The fact that the BNP gets it wrong doesn't play well in these communities, because so do Labour, the Liberal Democrats and even us! What we have to do is beat the BNP on their own territory and offer a way out of the silent depression (which we all know is a more complex and deeper matter than the income people get or the benefits they receive), but a proper way out, not the dangerous and, in truth, false way out that the BNP offers.

[John Hustings]

One thing I've noticed is that the media often devotes an enormous (and thoroughly disproportionate) amount of airtime to the disaffection found among "young Muslims". We hear endlessly about the grievances that they hold towards us, and it is therefore implied that we *must* address these grievances, even if the Muslims *are* expressing these grievances in despicable ways such as on 7/7. But it is nevertheless continually insisted that we all need to "understand" Muslims and understand why the actions of 7/7 may have happened.

These same middle-class sensitive understanding types, however, extend no such sympathies to the white working class. Just look, for an example of this, at the comments at the top of this thread snobbishly deriding those who say, "I'm not racist but".

You may say you've heard that phrase countless times, but I've heard the same phrase derided countless times by patronisingly elitist white middle-classes.

They lack the articulacy to phrase their comments in a way that doesn't sound racist. This isn't really surprising, since they're not *allowed* to express their grievances at all. Does this mean that the sense of what they are trying to say has no legitimacy?

I recently re-read George Orwell's "The Road to Wigan Pier". One of the things that most struck me was the lack of cynicism and derision towards the working classes. There is the ever-present assumption that they are decent people with basically good values. This is *still* true. The middle-classes in our own time, however, show nothing but contempt to the working classes.

No wonder they turn to extremist parties. The BNP isn't showing contempt towards them; it is giving the impression of listening, unlike the establishment.

[candy]

good post John Hustings

In my experience the conservatives have always been more accepting and less patronising to me as a working class person then the Labour party middle class.
That is one of the reasons why I started to support the tories about 3 or 4 years ago. I realised that conservatives don't care who you are, as long as your a decent person they'll treat you as an equal, that is not the case in the Labour party.

If I, who comes from a fundamentalist labour background (my father is a trade unionist), can realise this then anyone can.
There are votes out there for there tories from the working classes and to think that there is not would be selling the party short(in my humble opinion).

[Margaret]

Most of you have obviously never met a member of the BNP. I have a friend who is a member of the BNP and I guarantee if you ever met her, you would swear she was a Tory. In fact, the Tories were after her to stand for them in the local council elections, oblivious to her political allegiance.

The 3 main parties have a problem. Nobody believes a word they say. They are all spouting the same message, vote for me and I will make your life better. Every voter knows this is rubbish.

The BNP are telling voters what they want to hear. Namely, "You matter, and Britain matters, we are listening".

Until the Tories start "listening", they will never be elected.

[Richard]

"all kinds of policies that are nothing more than a Nazi-Stalinist composite."

Apart from their racialist philosophy, which BNP policies are Nazi or Soviet? This sort of hyperbole is the reason why people don't take criticism of the BNP seriously.

[Shaun]

One thought that I had was that the Asian communities in particular in the North-West and this part of London mostly moved in during the 60s and 70s when there still were jobs aplenty in those areas, manufacturing still being the primary force in the economy (With, of course, many troubles). Unfortunately that time also coincided with its demise and so on both sides of the racial divide you have a generation who have low expectations of their area economically, who probably received low expectations at the schools and who now mutually distrust one another ("There were lots of jobs and houses before they moved in" mentality.) A little bit of affluence and aspiration can go a long way. The difference between, say, Preston and Burnley is striking yet they're only 30 miles away. Generally I suppose I agree with IDS.

[Richard]

"I have a friend who is a member of the BNP and I guarantee if you ever met her, you would swear she was a Tory. In fact, the Tories were after her to stand for them in the local council elections, oblivious to her political allegiance."

The BNP's primary strategy is to replace the Tories and has been since before Nick Griffin became leader. At the moment though they are continuing with their short term plan to hoover up disaffected Old Labour voters. Despite their support for worker co-operatives and the NHS, the BNP have not called for higher taxes on the wealthy and say "we are not egalitarian socialists". This way they hope to obtain both traditional Tory and traditional Labour voters.

Perhaps the best way to attack the BNP is to concentrate on their autarkic economic policy and opposition to global capitalism. In some respects they share the anti-growth beliefs of the Greens. This will not go down well in the modern consumer age.

[Mark O'Brien]

"Apart from their racialist philosophy, which BNP policies are Nazi or Soviet? This sort of hyperbole is the reason why people don't take criticism of the BNP seriously."

Their whole attitude is about making a society which has no respect for the individual human being, but throws us altogether into groups - groups that we like on the one hand, and groups that we're not supposed to like on the other. That is something only totalitarian regimes do, and apart from being morally bankrupt, it also doesn't make society any better.

[Richard North]

"Perhaps the best way to attack the BNP is to concentrate on their autarkic economic policy and opposition to global capitalism..."

I think you may have missed the point. People vote for BNP, in the main, because it is a way of putting two fingers up to the political classes. Not one in a thousand BNP voters give a stuff what their policies are. And the more the political classes react, the better they like it... it is such fun to watch them squirm.

[Richard]

"Their whole attitude is about making a society which has no respect for the individual human being, but throws us altogether into groups - groups that we like on the one hand, and groups that we're not supposed to like on the other."

That doesn't change the fact that their manifesto doesn't have any overt totalitarian policies. Perhaps divisive and manipulative are more appropriate words.

"I think you may have missed the point. People vote for BNP, in the main, because it is a way of putting two fingers up to the political classes."

I happen to agree. I suppose I was contemplating the best line of attack if they began to look like a serious political force.

[Sean Fear]

"Sean, globalisation stops wars and is largely responsible for the low price of consumer goods we all enjoy"

In general, I support globalisation. To many people, however, it's a threat.

[Sean Fear]

"Peter Kellner of YouGov was on Sky News earlier and was saying that, almost without exception, the BNP lose seats the election after they win them"

Not necessarily. They have councillors in Kirklees, Calderdale, Stoke and Burnley who've succeeded in getting re-elected.

[Sean Fear]

"The middle-classes in our own time, however, show nothing but contempt to the working classes."

The contempt which "enlightened" middle class left wingers hold for the working classes is worse than mere snobbery. It is imbued with a really self-righteous kind of hatred for them. It's very similar to their hatred for Northern Ireland's Protestants.

This existed even in Orwell's time. He did after all remark on left-wing intellectuals who'd rather be caught shoplifting than stand for God Save the King. But it's obviously a great deal more pervasive now.

[Andy Stidwill]

John Hustings' comments about Wigan Pier backed up my earlier point, which was essentially that most working class people are just as respectable as they were in the past, but that because of the existence of a minority of chavs, the middle-classes regard the majority as being lost causes. This then helps the BNP to win votes in a big way.

[Jack Stone]

What most people in this thread seem to be saying is that the way to beat the BNP is to join them. What rubbish.
The way to beat the BNP is to solve the problems that are causing people to vote for them.
These problems are bad housing. People with two or three kids stuck in a tower block. It means putting a stop to old people being mugged of there pension on there way home from collecting it and being afraid to go out after darkness. It means putting an end to people waiting to pain for operations and often being treated by medical staff who are simply not up to the job.
On the whole working class people are not racist.They just turn to the right in there dispair because the right try to pretend that the diffult problems faced by people in areas like Barking have easy answers.
The way to fight the bNP is not on there evil terriority but on the centre ground.On the ground where the Conservative Party is always at its best.Where we can speak from a message of compassion, caring and equality not evil hatred and racism.

[Richard]

John Hustings' comments about Wigan Pier backed up my earlier point, which was essentially that most working class people are just as respectable as they were in the past, but that because of the existence of a minority of chavs, the middle-classes regard the majority as being lost causes. This then helps the BNP to win votes in a big way.

Chavs a minority?! Maybe so amongst the older generation but not true amongst the current younger generation.

"What most people in this thread seem to be saying is that the way to beat the BNP is to join them. What rubbish."

How have we said that?

"It means putting a stop to old people being mugged of there pension on there way home from collecting it and being afraid to go out after darkness."

Agreed. But whenever the Right of the Conservative Party wants to talk about crime they are told to shut up because it gives off an image of the Tories being harsh.

[Richard]

"The way to beat the BNP is to solve the problems that are causing people to vote for them."

Like it or not many people just don't like "foreigners" living near them and no attempt at educating them as to the benefits of immigration will change their minds. I suspect that this is only a minority though.

[matt wright]

I don't think there is a simply defined "working class " vote in the way there used to be. If talking about immigration was going to win us the election we would have done much better in 2005 or 2001 for that matter. Where we have lost votes is amongst those who benefitted from Thatcher and became the new middle class but switched to Blair. They are interested in issues like education and recognise that the market doesn't solve everything. Cameron senses this and has begun to put us in the right direction but he does need to concentrate on practical ideas to address education, pensions, regeneration etc. We've got to get the balance right - we can appeal to the centre but we need to differentiate ourselves as well with practical new ideas about the main issues that concern these swing voters. I have to say that environment is actually not appearing amongst their priorities in my canvass surveys.

Matt

[Melissa Bean]

It is firstly worth noting that the Joseph Rowntree Foundation donates money to the Liberal Democrats. It is not an entirely non-partisan organisation.

Many left-wing groups believe that the way to tackle the BNP is to tell everyone that the BNP are in danger of winning seats, which they presume will have the effect of getting voters to turn out en masse to vote against them. I remember a communist acquaintance at Uni who spent his Saturday mornings travelling to places like Burnley, knocking on doors and telling people that the BNP were in danger of winning a seat, and that they therefore must vote against the BNP. I pointed out that this was a rather stupid tactic, as your average voter does not appreciate being told how to vote, and besides, whilst I going canvassing wearing fairy wings (his signature fashion statement) in Burnley was hardly going to endear him to any BNP sympathisers.

So, the Left (including the BBC) try to scare everyone into thinking that the BNP are going to win seats, in order to encourage people to turn out and "vote against them". (I know of at least one occasion where this has had the effect of splitting the vote and allowing a BNP candidate through the middle).

Today's headline is a good example of that tactic. Alas, it will not work. Donal's comment at 14:38 was spot on.

[Frank Young]

Melissa I recall the occasions you're talking about. As I understood it the tactics of those on the “left” were designed to raise awareness of the BNP threat. This was a broadly non-partisan attempt to highlight the BNP’s divisive agenda and ask people to vote for any of the other mainstream parties. It is a laudable aim and one worthy of support.

However there was (and still seems to be) a consensus amongst Conservatives that in fact this sort of negative canvassing only reinforces disillusionment with the three main parties by neglecting to address the source of a voter's frustration. This, as well, is clearly true. Growth in BNP support can and should be seen as a worrying failure on the part of mainstream local politicians. While asking voters not to vote for extremists we also need to provide voters with a positive reason to support one of the mainstream parties.

For whatever reason there a plainly an alarming number of voters in concentrated areas who are turning away from mainstream politicians. We need to listen to their concerns and provide a moderate and reasoned output for their frustrations. This will take time and considerable energy on the part of the local political parties, if we don’t start to re-build our relationship with these voters their disenchantment could well spread further.

I have no doubt the broad political will is there but at some point these voters have felt forgotten, all three mainstream parties have a duty to be entrenched within their communities and responsive to their fears. Through hard work and a genuine commitment to robust democratic politics we can start to re-claim these voters.

Incidentally The Joseph Rowentree Foundation also provides the funding for the Department of Social Policy at York University.

[Giffin Lorimer]

If the objective is to win the next election, then we should look at what happened last year and see which voters and constituencies we need to address.

The UKIP vote, had it all switched to Conservative, would have given us 24 extra seats.

The BNP, had it all switched to Conservative, would have given us 3 extra seats. (Burton, Pendle, Bradford West).

That still wouldn't have won us the election.

I don't buy this 'disenfrachised Labour voter' spin - they are just trying to persuade their party members to become active again. It's interesting that the rise of the far right seems to coincide with a growing feeling of helplessness and irrelevance caused by Labour values - see chart in the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/04/16/nbnp16.xml

Support peaked in the mid-1970's as the "nanny state" consensus reached its apotheosis, subsided as the Conservative's traditional values came to the fore, then rose again as Labour came back to power.

In my opinion, we don't need to actually do anything except look like we are going to win. The people who vote BNP are protesting about what they perceive as unfairness - if they thought the Conservatives could win they would vote for us as a better option than the Labour values that they loathe.

[Richard North]

"We need to listen to their concerns..."

Hey, will my Council Tax go down if I vote Tory?

Will the Council actually collect my recycled paper bin instead of letting the contents rot?

Will the Council replace my wheely bin, after the bin men broke it?

Will the Council stop wasting money by printing everything in dozens of different languages?

Will the Council stop wasting money on raising the pavement heights by two inches at every bus stop?

Will the Council cut back on the speed cameras and actually put up some speed limit signs, so we actually know what the speed limit is?

Will the Council start gritting the pavements down the high street, as well as the road, when it snows?

Will the Council start emptying street waste bins, before they overflow onto the streets?

Will the Council stop spending a fortune on its monthly propaganda "freesheet" sent to all households?

Will the Council start enforcing hygiene laws in Asian shops, as well as those owned by white proprietors?

Will the Council do something about the dangerous parking at the top of our road?

Will the Council pave the local footpath, which looks like a re-enactment of the Somme, whenever it rains?

Will the Council...

Woops! I forgot... we already have a Tory Council.

Listen to our concerns? Pah!

[PassingThru]

Well, at least theyre not voting UKIP, that bunch of closet racist fruitcakes!

As this site rightly says 'percieved' rise, which probably means a load of media men deciding theres not much other 'news' worth reporting atm, so lets sensationalise a marginal rise in the BNPs fortunes in the meantime.

[Anti-Cameron Tory]

If the great and good are gtting their knickers in a twist about the BNP, what happens if a new 'collar-and-tie' anti-immigration party comes along?

Especially when some charismatic figure with no 'Nazi' baggage jumps on the bandwagon as has happened abroad and very nearly happened here with Kilroy-Silk.

Some interesting comment in the Telegraph today. One of the most relevant comments I've seen over the past few days is the point that to vast numbers of the electorate the ideas of today's establishment simply seem 'odd'

That perception of oddness would apply equally to those so-called Tories (ie PC Liberals)makiing up around 25% of those posting here, together with their hero the Celestial 'Dave' (and hasn't HE gone quiet lately)

I mean; where do these people get the curious idea that the public welcome demographic changes to their environment? I certainly don't and I'm sure East Enders don't either.

When Robin Cook tried to list the benefits of multiculturalism the best he could come up with was Chicken Vindaloo.

That says it all.