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BTW, I am extremely impressed with the editor's efforts in creating this blog and influencing public opinion, although as you'd expect, the right wing of the right wing are the most vociferous. I wish there was a left wing equivalent somewhere.

Chad,

Why don't you worry about selection for your own Imagine party and let the Tories decide about theirs?

Passing Leftie be prepared to be surprised. Cameron has argued for making pay openess a legal requirement. IE make companies say how much they are paying to whom for what. This to eradicate sexist and other discriminatory hiring practices by letting daylight in to corporate accounts. Harder for the you scratch my back, pay rises for failure culture of Capita and others to exist that way.

Consider voting Tory.

"..and this is known as pandering to racism."

Indeed. But if they go ahead and choose a non-white candidate they may lose to a white non-Tory candidate. So they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Open primaries are the best solution to this - it puts responsibility in the hands of the local electorate.

"Here's the story

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/s/210/210302_tory_in_race_storm.html

Posted by Christina

It is interesting to read the comments that Manchester Online readers have posted in response to the article, 14 of them when I looked, and many quite supportive of Mrs Howarth, worth reading if you have the time.

Hi Suggestion, because I as much as anybody else want to get Labour out of office and because I am not tribalist, but driven by values.

If people who are not currently Tory members or voters are encouraged to get involved, and help to mould the party into a better reflection of our country, then surely that will be a good thing and help get Labour out?

All the criticism is pointing in one direction; to get Labour out of office. Wishing and hoping will not get Labour out of office.

"Indeed. But if they go ahead and choose a non-white candidate they may lose to a white non-Tory candidate. So they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Open primaries are the best solution to this - it puts responsibility in the hands of the local electorate."

Indeed Richard, but let's not pretend that Camerons A-lists are racist and open primaries cannot pander to racism in a community.

It is a tricky situation.

With regards to the Manchester story, here is one comment that caught my eye:

"Mrs Howarth is really dealing in hypotheticals here, isn't she? With a Labour majority of 13,000 last time, she'd do well to find something else to worry about".
Mrs V Angry, Manchester
10/04/2006 at 12:15


Passing Leftie be prepared to be surprised. Cameron has argued for making pay openess a legal requirement.

Well, colour me surprised - an admirable sentiment. I'll look out for this as a policy commitment.

It would be great if everyone could see how much everyone else earned (including dividends and perks of course.)

Putting the Marxist hat on, it is in the interests of capital to manage the natural market process of wealth flowing upwards, ideally, it the flow just below the amount at which the plebs do more than grumble.
Turn to page 94.

Thanks for the link Paul. Hope she is expelled from the party soon.

As though white working class people wouldn't vote for an able ethnic minority candidate who shared their views!

Well we ain't Marxists! But openess would be good for shareholders as well as highlighting discrimination. Wealth creating and discrimination fighting = new Tories

Who attends these "open primaries" and in what numbers and what percentage of the total electorate would they be? Average constituency is say 70,000, would 1% go along?

"Fox: Another right winger, who promptly jets off to the USA with IDS and Hague et al to confer with Republicans just as their foreign policy adventures take a popularity nose dive into the Iraqi desert."

It's not like you to get your facts wrong, Oberon. Liam Fox went with William Hague and George Osborne, who is one of the leading lights amongst the self-styled modernisers.

"Putting the Marxist hat on"

Try reading von Mises ;)

The growing discontent was always going to happen. It really does show how bad things have got within our party that in a desperate grab for power we elected DC, who is not a Conservative, and have a 33 year old Shadow Chancellor who is so supine he makes Jack Straw look like a bona fide heavyweight. It is really quite scary. I shall not do anything for the party while the kids are running the show. Out with the youngsters and in with the adults!

A good point from one of the supportive letters:

"Would this have made the news if Mrs Howarth had said that an ethnic minority candidate would have been preferable? No of course it wouldn't. That would be 'positive' discrimination and of course that's 'good' discrimination."

For the record I think the statement was tactless but not necessarily racist in intent. It was simply stating the truth (although in doing so it probably did pander to local racism). In situations like this we just have to accept that old attitudes die hard and no amount of lecturing is going to change things. This may anger people but I honestly can't see any alternative other than punishing them all for their beliefs.

I have always been of the libertarian opinion that no matter how unpleasant discrimination is, it is a matter for the local community to sort out rather than the government. If a local community is itself discriminatory then the chances are it will find itself ostracised and its businesses boycotted by others.

It would be fair to argue though that Cameron's proposal to reduce the number of MP's and thus the size of the area they cover would only make the issue worse.

We need cheaper MP's not less.

People said that no way would Tories ever vote for a woman as leader or the country for her as PM. We showed them by simple demonstration of her brilliant oratory and principled command. The only answer is to do the same if racism, which is all it is, would not want an ethnic candidate. We Conservatives don't pander to racists. As a panderer to racism she is in the wrong party and needs to be expelled.

Putting the Marxist hat on"
Try reading von Mises ;)

Touche, my right-wing friend!

I do remember reading it through gritted teeth.

My favourite quote - "However great an evil Socialism might be, it would be less harmful than private monopoly."

I also quite like:

"There cannot be the slightest doubt that migration barriers diminish the productivity of human labor."

"The closed-door policy is one of the root causes of our wars."

I'm sure all the Tories on this list, the rail privatisers and anti-immigrationists would subscribe to these sentiments.

Remember to close your italics for goodness sake.

"The growing discontent was always going to happen. It really does show how bad things have got within our party that in a desperate grab for power we elected DC, who is not a Conservative, and have a 33 year old Shadow Chancellor who is so supine he makes Jack Straw look like a bona fide heavyweight. It is really quite scary. I shall not do anything for the party while the kids are running the show. Out with the youngsters and in with the adults!" - Clare Lewis

If George Osborne is a youngster, then what does that make me? Pre-embryonic? What a completely ridiculous comment. Are you a Conservative or just a trouble-maker? I would guess the latter.


Remember to close your italics for goodness sake.

Sorry. I forget. Tories are better at closing things!

Seriously, you read this blog and the only thing that winds you up enough to post is a typo?

Italics problem corrected.

On a more positive note, a former Labour AM and senior police officer has defected from Labour to the Conservatives: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4895594.stm

This is an encouraging defection. Although Ms Halford is not high-profile, her credentials seem very good and at 65 she is hardly doing it for her career...

Personally I seriously begin to wonder if some who contribute to this site should ever be let out on there own.
David Cameron is a married man with three kids who as been advising leaders and Prime Ministers for the last ten years. To describe him as a kid is the sort of name calling you get in the schoolyard not in the grown up world.
The party as made steady progress since the last election. We are now either in front of Labour or just behind them in the opinion polls. To start talking about changing leaders when the party is making progress and is in the position it is,is self destructive and plain stupied. I suspect those who are pushing this line have there own agenda and the last thing they want to see is a Cameron goivernment.
This site is called Conservativehome. Some times you come on it, read the contributions and think that a better title would be We Hate the Conservatives.
I think its about time true Conservatives started showing some of the loyalty again that made the party the most successful party in the democratic world and started backing there leader and party.
If you don`t then the wreckers will get what they want defeat and the country will get another full term of New Labour.


I think its about time true Conservatives started showing some of the loyalty again that made the party the most successful party in the democratic world and started backing there leader and party.

Here, here. Unity is a prerequisite for government.

We Hate the Conservatives, lol!

I appreciate this by the editor b/cause the site was starting to sink into anti-Cameron claptrap to an unhelpful degree.

Jack Stone talks about the need for loyalty.

Does he mean loyalty like that shown by Michael Heseltine to Margaret Thatcher?

How about loyalty to excellent general election candidates, e.g. Diana Coad, who have been thrown off the Candidates List?

This is an encouraging defection. Although Ms Halford is not high-profile, her credentials seem very good and at 65 she is hardly doing it for her career... Iain Lindley

It is indeed Iain, not least because as I recall, when she was an Assistant Chief Constable, she was both very high profile, very able, and a real "traditional copper" as it were, until she got "stitched up" by the establishment.

It is worth remembering the difference between "constructive criticism" and "destructive criticism" and that there are candidates out there who will be putting their heart and sole into either retaining their seat or winning it for the Conservatives.

Personally I like a bit of banter on these sorts of websites and think constructive criticism is a good thing, but I also remember that I am now a Conservative and that I want to win because I personally know how awful losing is and also to win means that we hasten the day when we get this bunch of Labour charlatans out.

Anyway that's enough of me ranting, I have to be careful at my age raising my blood pressure!!!.

Its alright Paul. Just get a cup of tea. Mind you dont overfill the kettle!

I retract nothing said in my previous post. It is all true - you may all be bound by these perverse tribal loyalties but I prefer to 'say what I see'. The problem with Cameron and Osborne is that they are young, inexperienced, have never had a proper jobs and give the distinct impression of enjoying playing at politics. The voters, who go about normal jobs and activities, are more worried about mortgage rates, inflation and the education and safety of their kids. I will never vote for people who are in politics for no other reason than politics as an end in itself.

Mrs Thatcher always caught the eye of the electorate because she gave the impression of caring, no one thought she did her job for a 'bit of a laugh'. She took painful decision, DC is so focus-group driven and scared of opinion poll turbulence that I have no doubt he would be a terrible PM.

Those are the reasons I am raising doubts over his leadership; I really think this tribal politics many of you revel in is nauseating.

Clare Lewis

How old are you, Clare Lewis?
From your tone of voice, I'm guessing you're another know-it-all-baby-boomer.

FYI many voters around my age (late 20s) care about other things apart from the education and safety of the kids we don't have because we are too busy working till age 80 to pay for your damn pension.

We are sick of tired old baby-boomers thinking they know everything and safe in the knowledge that they are going to drop dead any day now do not give a hoot about the environment that the rest of us have to spend the next 70 years living in.

You are the one who is nauseating with your idiotic generalisation.

We have had great Prime Ministers much younger than Cameron before. There is nothing wrong with a career politician as long as he or she is good at their job.

I'm with you Clare. It's difficult to see the point in Jack Stone's comment "David Cameron is a married man with three kids who as been advising leaders and Prime Ministers for the last ten years" except to confirm that DC is a consultant who's never had a real job outside politics and PR. My argument with the panglossian - sorry "modernising" - tendency is not solely that DC's policies are barely distinguishable from New Labour but that it has had so little effect on the Party's poll position. Furthermore, as a leader of HM Opposition, DC can't even oppose properly: he allows the enormous Labour scandal of cash for honours to be converted to a bi-partisan issue concerning state funding for political parties. He diverts a potential tidal wave of public opposition to ID cards into a squalid and useless compromise: and, BTW, he has not unequivocally promised repeal of all ID legislation. True conservatives should oppose DC and his modernisers. This is not the leadership or the leader the party voted for. The party's been had and no appeals to a spurious loyalty should stop this being pointed out at every opportunity.

Camerons off to Norway during the election campaign. Cant he just delay till after the results? Climate change is a long term thing and Im sure the trip can wait a month.

One concern I have is about Camerons comments regarding the pace of change. As we can see the polls are now at a plateau. He says its because we arent going fast enough in changing the policies and the party. Weve heard this before (he said similarly in Wales) of course, which is worrying. Is he telling himself that his path is right and that going faster and faster in order to persuade the critics is the right path? I cant be the only one who thinks hes misguided here and that its the most risky path as we dont really know what the consequences for the polls are. What happens if the polls start falling because the public just dont like these new policies? I can see U-turns galore which can only be humiliating.

James,

If the polls drop further he will blame the instransigence of the party's members. The members are the convenient scapegoat for any failing of leadership.

To all the Cameronites, protecting this man who wants to kick the members (though not as badly as Portillo, Maude and May), can you tell me what you think 'CHANGE ' actually means? I hear a lot about it, but surely change means new policies?

How about a 50% top rate of tax? How about advocating PR? How about spending more and more money on the Welfare state with no tangible benfits?

We are a Conservative party, we believe in Conservative priniciples, so change must be within our spectrum of beliefs. If Maude and May really dislike the members so much they should pack their bags and go and see either Ming or Gordon. From what I know of these men, who actually appreciate their membership, Francis and Theresa would be told to take their custom elsehwere.

"the current system unfairly discriminates against individuals within certain groups, what is your alternative?"

Have a system that works as fairly as possible? Not build more unfairness into the system?

"I'm glad the party has decided to impose the best and brightest hopes onto sclerotic constituency parties. The individuals selected will be of very high calibre"

It hasn't. It has tried to impose candidates who fit a particular socio-economic profile upon constituency associations.

I want people who are capable. I think, on average, one is more likely to get capable candidates if one has 600- 1000 people to choose from rather than 150.

We know very well that capable people have been (a) removed from the Candidates' List as it now stands and (b) told that they'd be wasting their time applying to join the Priority List. How is that in our party's interest?

"FYI many voters around my age (late 20s) care about other things apart from the education and safety of the kids we don't have because we are too busy working till age 80 to pay for your damn pension".

By the time 'Enraged' is 80 Clair should be about 170 years - good on yer, Clair. Not to worry 'Enraged', immigration is back in fashion with the Tories so the new immigrants that will still be arriving when you are 65 will pay for your pension.

"We are sick of tired old baby-boomers thinking they know everything and safe in the knowledge that they are going to drop dead any day now do not give a hoot about the environment that the rest of us have to spend the next 70 years living in".

Yep! we are looking forward to "dropping dead" shortly either from bird flu or global warming (read the two articles on climate change in last Sunday's Telegraph debunking the politically correct scaremongering of the media and for failing to listen to opposing scientific opinion). Whilst Cameron is in Norway (skating on thin ice) perhaps he will carry on to the Antarctic where in some places the ice cap is getting thicker. These late 20 year olds think they know it all. Scientific opinion (not the BBC's 'experts') has it that the Earth is marginally colder than in 1998 (I put it down to David Cameron buying a bike). 'Enraged', stop watching and listenening to the BBC and get a life (or you wont live to draw your pension). I shall finish now because I wish to speak to my grandchildren-before I drop down dead- and tell them the story about prime ministers that were younger that Cameron unfortunately the story wont take long.

Politics used to be a simple battle of ideas. Today things seem to be very different. It is all about image and branding. Much more advertising a product than stating a clear policy; or so we are told. We are currently at the start of a long process, and whether we like it or not there can be no going back. If the party does not continue to make steady progress in the polls, we could be in real trouble, as many members are being led in directions they would rather not go.

Every party leader since Mrs T. has found the party impossible to lead in bad times. Mr C. may be about to find out if he can buck the trend. The omens are not good!

John Hustings - If Cameron turns on the membership like that he'll probably find there won't be much of a party left to fight.

I must say that I found the constant "CHANGE" message at the Spring Forum incredibly patronising and pretentious. If Cameron and the Notting Hill clique continue to treat the membership with contempt like this then not only will their entire project unravel, but it will deserve to fail.

"John Hustings - If Cameron turns on the membership like that he'll probably find there won't be much of a party left to fight."

Remember: as a party "insider" put it: "people are asking, is David Cameron just a Brazilian signing come to prop up Millwall?"

Putting aside whether or not anyone is *really* asking such a ludicrous question, it's very revealing what this senior Tory politician thinks about us members.

We are "Millwall". Feel insulted yet?

I must say that I found the constant "CHANGE" message at the Spring Forum incredibly patronising and pretentious.

oh, change! I thought he was banging on about 'charge' in terms of charging the taxpayer for vote for him under his state funding plans.

I agree with the previous SW comment. Oh for a simple policy discussion! Forums and conferences are no longer a place for simple debates, they have become a cross between advertising showcases and quasi-religious conventions. The real debating goes on in the fringe meetings. The members are mere pawns in a game of political chess, but that is the price we must pay if we want our party back in power.

If Labour had a similar site to this, and if they have I am not aware of it, then it would also be agonising over their party's policy, between Old and New Labour.

"We are "Millwall". Feel insulted yet?"

Yes, but then I always was prepared to be insulted, offended, put down, etc, by a Cameron leadership. Problem for Cameron is that other members who were previously very supportive of him are begining to feel insulted too.

Don't suppose there's a chance of a truce before the local elections?

"Whilst Cameron is in Norway (skating on thin ice) perhaps he will carry on to the Antarctic where in some places the ice cap is getting thicker. These late 20 year olds think they know it all. Scientific opinion (not the BBC's 'experts') has it that the Earth is marginally colder than in 1998 " -- dontmakemelaugh

If this is the result of research, not wishful thinking, please name your sources. The British Antarctic Survey reports that 87% of Antarctic glaciers are in retreat. Elsewhere they say that warming in the Antarctic is three times greater than observed globally. Glaciers accelerate as they melt and, depending on topography, this can result in local thickening.

"I'm glad you posted this, Editor. I completely agree with you. Cameroonians who hate the critical tone of some of our comments should realise that we DO want him to win, we do NOT want him replaced, we ARE on his side with most of the 'change agenda', we recognise that he is going to some good new places.

The reason we criticise is because we want him to be better, not that we want him out."

I can only agree with this.


Time to face facts:

Our ratings under DC are at about the same level as they were in the final months of IDS's leadership, and the early months of Michael Howard's leadership.

Now it is possible that DC may build on this. But he won't do so, IMHO, by alienating our traditional supporters.

Derek - You are right about the policy debates. I only caught the fag-end of the debate on "Built to Last" which was the one distantly policy orientated debate in the entire conference. From what I saw and heard it seemed to me that most of it was, quite frankly a joke, and the one person who had the nerve at the end to say something vaguely controversial, namely that Built to Last was all "motherhood and apple pie" was shouted down by one of the panellists as being "stuck in the past".

Is it not possible for anyone to say anything remotely right-wing, or even centre-right, without being accused of living in the past. We are supposed to be a Conservative Party after all. Oh I just forgot, we’re "Cameron's Conservatives" now aren’t we. How silly of me.

Sean - to be honest I can only remember YouGov giving us the polling ratings we've got now. My main issue with what Cameron is doing is the manner in which he is presenting himself, and the party, to the voters. For example I think the use of the word "Change" at the Spring Forum and on the Party's central literature is completely OTT, and let alone losing voters, is, I believe, going to get us nowhere in gaining new supporters.

What few have observed (so far as I can see) is that David Cameron isn't "changing" very much.

The Tory Wets have believed much the same kind of stuff for a very long time. The "modernising" faction is far from new (and they have only ever been notable for their absence of ideas). I personally think they are indistinguishable from the wets in the sorts of ideas they'd like to put forward (but perhaps they're a little more "trendy").

The point I'm making is that the agenda that Cameron is espousing is no different to the agenda that any wet/moderniser would push were they given absolute power over the party. What we're seeing is not "change" at all. We are, in fact, seeing an end to compromise between the different factions of the party (which has *not* been totally dominated by the right-wing by any stretch) and instead we're seeing one faction exerting its absolute will over the other faction in a brutal and rather unpleasant manner.

This differs entirely from the "change" Mrs Thatcher brought about, for example. The ideas of Mrs Thatcher's government were genuinely new and revolutionary at the time (at least for this country). Cameron's ideas are not "new" and they have no more claim to "modernity" than the current Thatcherites. Let's stop pretending otherwise!

"...let alone losing voters, is, I believe, going to get us nowhere in gaining new supporters."

Since Cameron's election the Party has gained thousands of new members and has moved up in the polls.

If that success isn't enough for his detractors, fine, but do not pretend it doesn't exist and please do not embarrass yourself by pretending it's going the other way.

"we do NOT want him replaced"

Then why all the comments at the top of this thread discussing what would happen if Davis was in charge? Why all the support for Simon Heffer?

"Sean - to be honest I can only remember YouGov giving us the polling ratings we've got now."

True, but Yougov has tended to be the most successful when it comes to predicting election results.

"The point I'm making is that the agenda that Cameron is espousing is no different to the agenda that any wet/moderniser would push were they given absolute power over the party"

Insofar as he seems to favour voluntary organisations over the state it is possible that Cameron intends to pursue a "dry" agenda but doesn't want to state this openly for tactical reasons. When we have a better idea of what policies Cameron would like to see implemented then we can judge just how "wet" he is. I agree though that a compromise is needed between the traditionalists (who support some policies that are popular with the electorate) and the modernisers (who do have a point about the party's image). Total domination by either faction would probably be disastrous.

I would like Cameron to give more of a say to Associations with reference to policy. What do the people on the ground think about policy? How should it be improved, bearing in mind of course that we are looking for positive policies. There is one great way of doing this and its been in existence for years, having been relaunched in 2002. Its the Conservative Policy Forum.

Each association has its own CPF Officer. Why isnt Cameron tapping into this? It would help party unity as all wings of the party would have a fair say. The use of the internet would help as it would allow CPF Officers to contact members and get their thoughts on the future direction of the party. Cameron shouldnt be shunning the Associations with reference to policy.

Julian, the polls are hitting a plateau. The increase in the membership may be wonderful but if the cause of that increase is alienating the members who were around to begin with...isnt that just the 25% idea? Getting a bigger membership is great but at what cost?

Also, I dont know which posts you are refering to that are about Davis. which ones are you looking at? It certainly isnt all of them.

"Why all the support for Simon Heffer?"

Yes - three more reasons for supporting Project Cameron:

1. Simon Heffer.
2. Peter Hitchens.
3. Melanie Phillips.

The fact that this happy bunch is so vehemently opposed to Project Cameron is enough to convince me that he's doing something right.

Cameron's troubles with the opinions polls is that the Conservative Party "backstabs" those who don't perform straightaway. Recent experience shows that with IDS the party was MORE than willing to backstab him and frankly ruin any chance of success in the 2005 election.

I'm fustrated with people commenting on this website, no doubt Cameron probabl is with his party. This continued resistance is a pain in his plans to take the party forward. Questioning all his moves do him or the party no good and slow the whole process down. We can't afford slow progress, Cameron needs to get the negative brand image gone asap, and his policy groups will report back eventually.

Our chance, in my mind (and a total guess) of winning outright election are probably around 30% at this point.

The whole point of the "CHANGE" idea is to provide the public that change is taking place to remove the stain of negative branding. If he can avoid this "stain" as such, as soon as he has policies to talk about he will make gains in the polls (i'm sure).

When the election comes Caonservatives > Labour. Done deal, I'm happy.

There is no evidence that people have turned away from Cameron, with high polling figures and a membership increase it shows a substantial improvement under his leadership.


I'm afraid that comparing polls now with polls in the immediate aftermath of the General Election, during a period in which we were effectively leaderless, makes no sense at all.

Membership, we are told, has risen by 20,000. But then membership, we were told, rose by 20,000, following Michael Howard's election as leader. It didn't last, and we need to recruit thousands of new people each year to make up for natural wastage.

David Cameron has achieved the same poll ratings as Michael Howard. He may do better than that in due course, but the claim from "modernisers" that he has transformed our fortunes is not borne out by any observable evidence.

And the argument that the failure to boost our support is somehow down to the party membership, rather than its leader, is hardly worthy of a response.

Julian H - Well I'm sorry if you think that I'm stupid and embarrassing, however perhaps I should clarify my comments in that I was basing them on the literature I saw at the conference, most of which I presume is going to be delivered through people's doors. Others can speak for themselves, however I found the literature’s general message patronising, and in the case of the "Personals" section in the Change newspaper cringe-worthy. If I were told to deliver these leaflets in my local ward I would send them back as I don't believe the message on them is either effective nor would it convince many floating voters in my opinion to switch; and before I am criticised again I am basing my opinions on my experience on the general election campaign where good quality local Conservative literature was certainly a factor in our gaining of my seat from the Liberal Democrats.

I don't deny there has been a lift in the polls, in fact I am/was delighted by it. What I fear however is that the party has failed to capitalise on that and will be unable to increase our support because of the way our message is being presented to the electorate. Like it or not Julian we are not going to win an election on 35% of the vote.

Jaz - Again I don't object about Cameron using the word "CHANGE" or anything like that. What I feel though is that he's gone over the top with it, to the point where it's lost its appeal to the electorate, which ties in with my opinions about the Party's literature.

As for the membership, well I would treat anything like that which comes out of CCHQ with a heavy dose of salt, like Sean said, did not a similar rise occur under Michael Howard?


Voice, we have a membership of nearly 300,000. Of those, probably 30,000 a year die, resign, fail to renew their subscriptions. Hence, we need to recruit 30,000 a year to stand still.

Think of it as being like a bath with the plug removed and the taps turned on.

Voice from the South West, what would you suggest we do? Hope that Gordon Brown has some sticky sleeze on him at the time of the next general election?

No matter who is the leader, the conservative party has such a poor reputation with large segments with society that our chances are slim. Single Mothers, ethnic groups, relatively poor people and the scottish seem to hate us. Even if we had a black, single-parent scottish mother as leader it would be difficult to convince them that the Tory party has changed.

The problem is massive and "sticky" and requires a massive over the top message to convince the voters, this period of uncertainty may help so long as Cameron comes out next year with an absolutely clear, fully party and membership backed program of reform and government.

Headline soundbites work in his favour to achieve this goal. Anti-Racist, tackling extreme right-wingers. We have to admit that Thatcher damaged our reputation as a helper of the poor and disadvantaged (yes she did help them, but there is no recognition). John Major, made the situation stick with sleeze and not making the necessary reforms while in government.

Cameron has to come out saying "I'm not like them, neither is the party anymore" - Just to get rid of the negative branding. I doubt he disproves of their policies, but rather their negative images are not worth supporting nay longer in a society moving on.

I agree Sean, I've seen it, albeit at a much smaller level, in my Association's membership too. I'll always remember the Chairman being delighted that membership had increased in 2005, "considering we've had a large number of deaths this year!"


Jaz, if we are as hated as you believe, why don't we just disband, like the Italian Christian Democrats, rather than embarass ourselves?

I don't of course, believe we are as hated as you believe.

""we do NOT want him replaced"

Then why all the comments at the top of this thread discussing what would happen if Davis was in charge? Why all the support for Simon Heffer?"

I think that was Chad, who is a different breed altogether.

"Whilst Cameron is in Norway (skating on thin ice) perhaps he will carry on to the Antarctic where in some places the ice cap is getting thicker. These late 20 year olds think they know it all. Scientific opinion (not the BBC's 'experts') has it that the Earth is marginally colder than in 1998 " -- dontmakemelaugh
Reply by Mark Fulford:
If this is the result of research, not wishful thinking, please name your sources. The British Antarctic Survey reports that 87% of Antarctic glaciers are in retreat. Elsewhere they say that warming in the Antarctic is three times greater than observed globally. Glaciers accelerate as they melt and, depending on topography, this can result in local thickening.
Mark Fulford.
My reply:
The British Antartic Survey is a funded organisation funded by politicians which is one of the points made by the Australian climatologist scientist, Bob Wall, I believe is his name. He and other scientists disagree with the those doom mongers of global warming. Indeed they have signed an open letter sent to the newly elected prime minister of Canada - the country that recently hosted a climate change conference. The 'Hockey stick' theory, so beloved of the doom-mongers has, they say, been dis- proved. Kyoto is a non starter, dead in the water and even Blair has renounced the agreement.
Last year I heard on radio (not the BBC of course)a climatologist from the Stockholm Institute of 40 years experience state that sea levels have not risen and poo-poohed global warming (he was accused of working for the oil companies. Don't the oil executives have families) - denied and not proved. London is slowly sinking, I am told, thus the sea appears to be rising.
I urge you to read the two articles in last Sunday's telegraph. They can be accessed by last Sunday's (yesterday) home page of this blog.
Global warming is a stick with which the EU can beat the USA and the Lefties love it. It is another way of raising taxes with which to buy votes. Ask yourself why you have never heard a scientist called to oppose in debate one of the BBC's doom- mongering experts? I have never heard such a debate (nor on withdrawing from the EU) I prefer the version of the scientists who are n't funded (by the politically correct) and have children and families the same as the rest of us and also live on this planet. I believe the Left is taking us for a ride (anyway, I am due to "drop down dead soon",which I suppose means that I don't care about those left behind)- not true of course. I believe that Cameron is chasing the anti-American politically correct vote, wasting our time and money.

To Paul K. patience needed! We will discuss policy with the voters. ONCE Nulab has shown its own hand.I believe this is called poker! We have seen Nulab pinch policies once too often. Our policies will be road tested. Nulab policy has had a too high result of the law of unintended consequences.
1. 24 hr drinking....More drunks.
2. Windfall tax on pensions...No pensions.
3. Punitive taxes on fags n' booze...Smuggling.
Now you all post a few more, as I've run out of inspiration.
Chad! of the John Lennon Party. The problem with getting more women to stand is money and domestic responsibilities. I have just got Conservative Revival edited by Chris Philp, £9.99 from Iain Dale's stall on Saturday. Check page 77 about this.
By the way, anyone that went onto Iain Dales Diary will have noted a post about "a nice lady that came to my stall, and picked up Boris Johnson's book. It seems I made a big double entendre, and did not realise till I read the post. Bloomin' 'eck, or Zut Alors. All I said was Boris must be keeping his head down, perhaps Its just a nice clean mind . I admit to laughing whrn I read the post though.

"Jaz, if we are as hated as you believe, why don't we just disband, like the Italian Christian Democrats, rather than embarass ourselves?

I don't of course, believe we are as hated as you believe."

We should disband the Scottish Tories and rebrand using a new name, new policies but remain sister partys. Their is hope for English Tories we won the popular vote in GE2005, and the welsh tories are showing signs of revival.

I'm always a bit suspicous of people who post under pseudonyms Don't Make Me Laugh,and I'm very suspicous of you.Do you actually know anything about this subject at all?

"The fact that this happy bunch is so vehemently opposed to Project Cameron is enough to convince me that he's doing something right."

They're also vehemently opposed to socialism, Daniel. Does that makes socialism right?

If you want to efect change, learn from the master: Jack Welch. You can't prescribe, impose or manage - those are counter-productive! - you have to lead. Example isn't enough, you have to motivate people to want to change, and promote / reward those who actually do change.

There is more life and energy in this site - not to mention more ideas and debate - than in the mainstream Conservative party. The fact that so many people here feel that Cameron isn't engaging with them worries me. How difficult could it be to use the Internet to engage the wider public?

Hi,

isn't Vapid Cameroon in his inane persuit of 10 benefits overlooking one word and 4,000,000 reasons for working for his supporters rather than insult them when they abandon the party that is increasingly being the tail wagging the dog as it shrinks and shrinks.

The word is MEMBERS.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

Hi,

I gather Vapid Cameroon's contribution to the local elections next week is to go on a jolly to watch a glacier melting in Norway.

The rate of melt water when I was last there in the 1960s was staggering and exciting especially when you think we have had 29 known periods of global warming after ice ages before man even arrived.

It will be interesting to see if the glacier is still spewing out millions of gallons of water, for trendy photo oportunities, to prove one has swallowed 'the man is to blame' propaganda.

Oh I see!!! obviously there is no capital in the truth - 'Global warming is a product of increased heat output from our closest star - The Sun'.

How about acting as an opposition rather than looking for the smallest Party in the political playground and then bullying them.

How about throwing everything into gaining Tory voters not fashion plaudits think of THE LOCAL ELECTIONS.

Regards,
Greg L-W.

As British industry closes down due to high energy prices - we will no doubt hear how environmentally sound it is to manufacture in China - now home to 70% global radio production, 70% toys, 30% TV sets..................and just to import everything in an environmentally enlightened manner.

Britain can specialise in exporting bogus degrees, diversity training, speculative asset-stripping, and develop a public sector as bloated as China.

I wonder if Cameron has ever visited a factory, seen a lathe, or knows how a refractory kiln operates ?

Reading all the above comments, I can't help but reflect on what a difficult job it is to lead our party. Whoever does the job can only listen to advice and then make his own judgement. We,the members, must make our own judgement of him, and then decide how to respond.

By publishing his "Built to Last" document and inviting discussion and suggestions on it he is actually inviting criticism. I hope that here at Conservative Home we will respond fully and constructively.

"David Cameron is a married man with three kids who as been advising leaders and Prime Ministers for the last ten years".

Perhaps that is why the last 3 Tory leaders failed, and had to be replaced!!

Derek, it should be renamed "Built to come last".

Daniel (re: post @ 16:37) : you are quite right, Liam didn't take part in the official jaunt Stateside, appologies Liam. I think it was a mixture of seeing red and Liams' good connections in the Republican party that might have led to the error. Try a Google search and see for yourself - a game all the family can play...

Anyway, this thread has been extremely active, and even if it has proved uncomfortable reading for many of us, well, its what this site does best.

The older bloggers, like you Daniel, will not be too surprised with my comments regarding the Shadow Cabinet. But I firmly believe that the fact that so many senior members of our party are from what is known as the 'New Right' (actually these guys made the term) reinforces the fear of a wary electorate that we have only, and I mean only, just discovered the Bush formula for election sucess in the US and are now shoving down the throats of the British electorate.

It will not work. Until we REALLY move back to the centre ground we will remain unelectable. We, the Conservative Party, are failing them.

"Daniel (re: post @ 16:37) : you are quite right, Liam didn't take part in the official jaunt Stateside, appologies Liam. I think it was a mixture of seeing red and Liams' good connections in the Republican party that might have led to the error. Try a Google search and see for yourself - a game all the family can play..."

One minor correction (sorry!) - it was Iain Duncan Smith that didn't go to Washington. Liam Fox, William Hague and George Osborne were the trio that made the trip.

Like you, I would prefer it if the Conservatives weren't cosying up to the Bush administration, partly because I can't see the point of getting chummy with an administration that will be gone at the end of 2008, but mostly because I find the political approach of the Bush regime utterly reprehensible.

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