EPP exit won't satisfy Tory members' appetite for Euroscepticism

During last month's survey of the ConservativeHome Members' Panel we asked whether certain statements should be included in the next Tory manifesto:

• 68% wanted “The European Union should return responsibility for fishing and aid policies to member states” to "definitely" be included in the manifesto.
• Another 19% said "maybe" it should be included.
• 7% said "probably not".
• 4% said "definitely not".

The survey result reveals a big appetite within the Tory grassroots for practical measures to address the continuing loss of British sovereignty to the EU.  This appetite will only have been encouraged by Philip Davies MP's controversial launch of the Freedom Association's 'Better Off Out' campaign.  The Tory leadership has so far refused to say that it still believes in Michael Howard's policy to retake control over fishing and has promised only to take Tory MEPs out of the EPP.  Oliver Letwin has not established a policy group to examine a fundamental reappraisal of Britain's relationship with Brussels.

All of the 'Built to Last' principles - proposed by David Cameron in January and tested in last month's ConservativeHome Members' Panel survey - tended to enjoy strong support amongst Tory members and led for this website to call for the costly idea of an all-party referendum to be scrapped.  The only value in such a referendum would be if it gave members the opportunity to amend 'Built to Last'.  ConservativeHome's survey suggests that members would vote for changes that emphasised economy-boosting tax relief, solidarity with the striving classes (not just the poorest of the poor) and more anti-corruption measures within the overseas development budget.

April's ConservativeHome survey is now online and you can have your say by clicking here.

Comments

[Richard North]

And nobody gives a damn about Europe?

The "fishing" result is particualrly interesting as it effectively represents the "litmus test" on the EU. The CFP is unreformable, to which effect Michael Howard personally authorised the publication of (a much ignored) opposition green paper on fishing policy, written by Owen Paterson when he was fisheries shadow miniter.

That set out a measured alternative to the CFP, on which the Conservative policy of seeking repatriation of the CFP was endorsed - having already been agreed by two of Howard's predecessors, Hague and IDS.

Since the accession of the Boy King, however, we have had no commitment that the repatriation policy is to be continued and there is every indication that it will not. The "green paper" has been buried and the current spokesmen talk vaguely of "reform" - which isn't even on the table at EU level.

It is "small" issues like this that engender much of the suspicion of the Boy King - who does not even have the guts to confront the fishermen (and the nation) outright, and tell them he is considering (if he has not already done so) pulling out of previous Conservative commitments, leaving us in limbo while one of his "reviews" looks at the issue.

Why should the issue be reviewed, when it was sdubject ot one of the most fundamental tech technical reviews possible by Paterson and his team, the basics of which can hardly have changed since the review was carried out?

Yet, without a firm commitment from the Boy King on fishing, the fact of the matter is that CP policy is going backwards on the EU, regressing to a more Europhile stance which - as your survey - suggests - is contrary to the wishes of the memebers and supporters.

Why should we support a man who is prepared, so arbitrarily, to ignore those wishes?

[Richard North]

If anyone wants to see the opposition “green paper” on fishing, it is still on the Conservative Party website here. You might also be interested in the commitment Michael Howard gave to the fishermen, which can be seen here.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

Why should we support a man who is prepared, so arbitrarily, to ignore those wishes?

Posted by: Richard North | April 29, 2006 at 10:21

Hear, hear, Richard. Some of us wont be supporting him and instead nominate Phillip Davies as Conservative of the year.

[Tim Aker]

I couldn't agree more with the above posts. Cameron's reaction to the Better Off Out campaign shows his general antipathy to the eurosceptic cause. The important thing is that it exposes Cameron's spin on the issue and how his EPP policy is just a stunt to get the eurosceptics on his side.

[Andrew Woodman]

Many of us won't be satisified until Roger Helmer is reinstated as well.

[True Blue]

You are all looking into the unfortunate policy vacuum and seeing what you want to see. At least wait until Cameron has made a speech on the issue. Judging by previous pronouncements and the manifesto, he is pretty Eurosceptic, and would probably agree with the 68%, but we'll see.

His reaction to the campaign is pretty much the same as if someone had launched a "Better off In a United Europe" campaign. What did you expect him to do in the face of such an ill-advised, ill-timed launch?

If it had been a "Better off in a United Europe" campaign, he'd be saying exactly the same thing, and you'd be complaining about how ill-advised and ill-timed it was.

Still, at least we have had a commitment on this blog that they won't have a similar stunt just before an election.

What proportion of respondents said they wanted unconditional withdrawal from the EU?

[Cynthia]

I won't be satisfied until Philip Davies MP, or someone he backs is Party Leader. Under Caramel we have no hope of regaining anything. Until Caramel goes I'm not a Conseravtive.

Conservative MP's had better read the writing otw, which so far only 9 are doing openly. Forget Front Bench positions. Under Cameron there aren't going to be any.

Labour suporters in droves are turning to the BNP. If a few Conservatives join the rush, the old two/three party system will be over. The Conservative Party will be over.

Don't wait for the media to tell you. They're doing their best to keep the whole thing silent. Just wake up, Conservative MP's just for once. Get active. Get rid of Caramel, or get thrown into the dustbin of history.

[Chad]

I've got to admit that I've changed my mind on the reinstateroger campaign. I fully agree with Roger's stance, but think he should stay firmly outside until the EPP withdrawal has been delivered.

There is a real risk that the party could use Roger as a pawn to further delay delivery of the EPP withdrawal by using his readmittance as a sign of "intent" when in fact it would just buy them more time not to deliver.

Caroline Jackson is running wild,the best possible propaganda for Labour who are even using her direct quotes in their ads bashing Cameron (deepest cuts coming from criticism on the 'inside' and all that), without any form of reprimand.

Why is Caroline Jackson not in the "wrong party"? Cameron's silence is deafening.

I no longer believe that the EPP withdrawal pledge will be delivered.

Cameron edged out Fox by matching his EPP withdrawal pledge and so winning over the right, and now job done, leadership won, he has done nothing to deliver this single firm pledge in his leadership platform but issue a few meaningless soundbites to stop a revolt.

It is almost six months since Cameron became leader, and the one firm pledge that he made is one he can deliver on now, but he is proving that you simply cannot believe a word he says.

I don't think Cameron is a chameleon; imho, I think he is a liar.

[Derek Buxton]

Could not agree more with the sentiments shown above about the EU. There is no evidence that Cameron is EUrosceptic, all the signs are that he will follow Labour (socialist) policy.

Derek Buxton

[Chris Palmer]

Who the hell is Caramel?

[Ted]

True Blue - thanks for attempting something approaching considered debate. I find it difficult to find any enthusiasm for posting replies when level of debate rarely rises above name calling, re-iteration of UKIP propoganda and anti-leadership positions based on nothing concrete said or done.
The damage that must be done to the Eurosceptic cause both within the party and in wider electorate by extremist positioning and childish name calling .

[True Blue]

The latest poll (YouGov 26th April 2006) gives 35% in favour of withdrawal.

[Chris Palmer]

Also, Cynthia/William are in fact the same person. Whoever they are, was so cretinous they forgot to change their email address which appears when you run over the names.

[Chris Palmer]

"I don't think Cameron is a chameleon; imho, I think he is a liar." - Chad

You lied when you said you were a Conservative, Chad. You lied because you clearly are not.

[Chad]

Grow up Chris. I'm a small c conservative, not a Tory. I think we've been through that a 100 times.

[Chad]

I've contributed my £100 to the Chameleon Army, how about you?

I'm running a campaign to oppose state funding of political parties, for action on Darfur and to find a pitch to beat Gordon Brown?

Words are cheap.

[Chris Palmer]

Sorry Chad, but you were the first to make the juvenile comments – I’m merely carrying on, but I thought you should have known better. Clearly not. You continue to masquerade as a conservative, when you are in reality not. You admitted yourself that you are on the centre-left of the political spectrum, and your farce of an Imagine party is attempting to steal votes from real conservative or Conservative candidates. Like someone else mentioned on this site, I hope everyone who comes up against you and your pitiful little excuse for a party will attempt to completely and utterly destroy it.

[Editor]

Neither of you, Chris or Chad, are behaving well.

Can we talk about Europe on this thread please... not each other?

[Chad]

Tim,

My post was entirely about the EPP and it was only a personal attack from Chris that took it off subject.

I simply wanted to show that I am actually doing something to help the conservative movement, instead of this constantly expecting all conservative to bang the drum for Cameron's non-conservative agenda.

Where was I behaving badly?

[Chad]

There is a constant set of attacks from posters here who simply refuse to accept that a person who is a conservative may not support the Tory Party.

Conservative values are ones that promote small government to me, and I am wholly committed to the conservative movement which is why I have set up ConservativeVoice to try to avoid this constant abuse from those who just refuse to accept that a conservative movement is developing outside the Tory Party and it is the job of the party to come towards us not the other way around.

[Editor]

Calling Cameron a liar, Chad.

[Chad]

Tim,

I agree, it is strong, but I genuinely believe that Cameron has lied and has no intention of delivering this pledge.

If I am wrong, I will happily donate £100 to the TPA on the day that Cameron takes the Conservative MEP's out of the EPP.

[Editor]

I believe he will deliver on his EPP pledge, Chad, and when he does there will be no question of him having lied.

[Andrew Woodman]

'I've got to admit that I've changed my mind on the reinstateroger campaign. I fully agree with Roger's stance, but think he should stay firmly outside until the EPP withdrawal has been delivered.'

As Roger said in his interview, he doesn't want to be reinstated to the EPP. He wants to be recognised as a Conservative MEP. At the moment, he's been airbrushed out. We had an MEP leaflet arrive at the office last week with a message from every MEP apart from Roger. He's been removed from the Conservative website. This is petty and vindictive and that is why we want to see him reinstated as our East Midlands Conservative MEP.

Let's hope Cameron doesn't turn out to have done a Chris Beazley on us. I'm still confident however, that he will deliver on his pledge and take us out of the EPP. What happens after that remains to be seen.

[Chad]

If he delivers, then of course I will agree Tim

How much do you believe though? Will you take me for a £100 bet (donation to the TPA) that the EPP withdrawal will be delivered before 01/01/2007?

I say no.

[Chad]

Andrew, has Roger offered any opinion why, as you note, he is being treated so vindictively, yet Caroline Jackson, who has caused so much damage she is being used by in Labour propaganda, escapes without the slightest reprimand.

These two are part of the reason that I simply do not believe Cameron intends to deliver his pledge. They are just completely inconsistent with a eurosceptic leader about to withdraw from the EPP.

[Andrew Woodman]

Chad, the way Roger has been treated compared to the likes of Jackson, Mcmillan Ccott and Beazley, leads me to the conclusion that the continued suspension and treatment of Roger is vindictive on the part of the Conservative MEP leadership. Kirkhope never trys to defend the action in public because it's indefensible. One rule for Pro Europeans and another for Euro Sceptics.

[Richard North]

To an extent, withdrawal from the EPP is an irrelevance. It only mattered if the new group was going to be robustly Eurosceptic.

The chances are that the Boy King will succeed in pulling out (probably by late summer) but the result will be such a watered-down group that, politically, it will not make much difference.

What does matter, though - from a practical point of view - is fishing and, to a lesser extent, aid. These, as I indicated, are the "litmus test".

As for name calling - there is a long tradition of applying nicknames in politics, friends and enemies alike. If anyone objects to that, they are in the wrong business. Otherwise, get over it.

[Cynthia]

Caramel - soft in the centre, smooth and tasty to begin with, but continued consumption makes everyone sick.

[Derek]

I agree with the proposition that the party members will expect more eurosceptic policies. This leadership election was the first one which did not feature strongly opposing views of the candidates regarding the EU. This is why David Cameron was successful, because he was regarded as being just as eurosceptic as David Davis.

Now he will realise that we expect him to deliver. Maybe that is why the "Better Off Out" campaign has been started now - to influence DC. To do that the campaign will need to make an impact, and that is not likely without favourable media coverage. So far it has had nothing on the main TV channels. The support of nine Tory MPs alone is not enough. They will either need mass support, or some high profile action.

[Richard]

"The latest poll (YouGov 26th April 2006) gives 35% in favour of withdrawal."

This is a seizeable body of opinion, if only a minority. Yet none of the three major parties represents this viewpoint. No wonder there is a growth in support for other parties. Not because people are particularly angry about the EU but because they are tired of all three major parties agreeing. I am no left-winger but there is, for example, a sizeable body of Old Labour socialist opinion in this country that is unrepresented (RESPECT don't count, they're communists).

[malcolm]

I would once again agree with you Ted.I'm a Eurosceptic and favour swift withdrawal from the EPP but this thread is one of the worst I've seen on this blog for ages.

[DavidB]

The policy I want, leave the EU and sign free trade agreements (trading bloc). And according to the latest YouGov poll that's what all but a few actually want;

24% Pull out of EU
35% Trading bloc only
21% EU as now but veto more integration
10% Closer political union

So a clear majority of 59% support ending the political 'European Union' and getting an economic only 'European Free Trade Area'.

We could and should use moral arguments for this, such as third world trade and CAP produce dumping causing poverty, cultural hegemony of "EU" over existing cultures, etc.

The Chameleon Army should fight for this.

[William]

Derek said - This is why David Cameron was successful, because he was regarded as being just as eurosceptic as David Davis.

Derek - David Davis was thought to be instrumental in getting rid of IDS when he was at 40% in the polls in October 2002 - not exactly a friend of the electorate. IDS was and is very popular.

The only candidate that espoused eurosceptic policies in the leadership contest openly was Liam Fox. Cameron only won by pretending to agree with him - now shown to be a fraud.

The situation is now like this. Either Conservative MP's get on with 'Better Off Out' and take control of the situation, or the electorate will decide they are better off without Conservative MP's.

The Party on the up is the BNP. Their leader is about to go jail for two years at least - a sure fire way to boost support for any cause.

Ex-Labour voters who wanted Blair out but were cheated by mass postal vote fraud at the last election, are now flocking to the BNP.

It will only take the same collapse to happen in the Conservative party, and the BNP could within a couple of years make a dash for power.

Please not a word of complaint from Conservative MP's who are going to lose their seats. You booted out IDS at the peak of his popularity, and now you've appointed Cameron a Europhile in his place. If you now get dumped in turn, it's exactly what you deserve for ignoring the wishes of voters, and being conned by the media.

If the EU tries to ban the BNP, its growth surge will be all the greater. BNP people unlike Conservatives will take to the streets and fight for a cause they believe in. The days of voter acquiescence while another Conservative leader betrays his country are over. Blair has out-traitored them all, you would have thought, but no Cameron wants to go to the next level of treachery.

Cameron must and will be got rid of. I would recommend it happens quickly, or the threat from the BNP will merely get worse.

It's very simple. Politics is a marketplace. People know what they want and the Conservatives are not providing it. Either they get into the business of meeting voters' preferences or they must get out of the business. Now what's so difficult to understand about that?

[Richard North]

Malcolm (at 18:13) believes "this thread is one of the worst I've seen on this blog for ages."

Tough really. Unless the CP can come to terms with membership of a socialist-orientated, interventionalist oganisation (the EU) which makes upto 80 percent of our new laws, there is not much point in having a CP at all.

This is especially the case with the Boy King's discredited environmental agenda. He can only ignore the "elephant in the room" for so long, before having to concede that environmental policy is not only an EU competence but also an "occupied field" - meaning that member states have ceded any rights to legislate in this field without the specific permission of the commission.

You may, therefore, want to bury your head in the sand, but the fact is that all that stance does is expose your rear end.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>I believe he will deliver on his EPP pledge, Chad, and when he does there will be no question of him having lied.<<<<
The thing is, if he's going to take the Conservative Party out of the EPP or any other grouping it happens to be in then why doesn't he just do it, sure withdrawing the UK from the EU would take quite a lot of preparation as UK laws were re-drafted and passed through and attempts made to do it on an amicable basis with EU partners as much as possible but I'm sure it could be managed in less than 5 months and leaving a group of parties could be done in a day.

[Editor]

Chad: "How much do you believe though? Will you take me for a £100 bet (donation to the TPA) that the EPP withdrawal will be delivered before 01/01/2007? I say no.

This is the first and last time I bet with anyone on this blog but I'll accept your bet on these terms...

If the Tories aren't out of the EPP by 1 January 2007 I'll give you £100 to give to the TaxPayers' Alliance. A worthy cause.

If the Tories are out you give me £100 and I'll donate it to the Conservative Party.

Deal?

[malcolm]

Why is this the last time you'll bet Tim?With the information you could make quite a bit of money!I certainly hope you win this one!

[True Blue]

William/Cynthia,

First, are you in fact two people, or one person and a sock puppet, or just two UKIP trolls?

I'm afraid your arguments are at the very least extremely paranoid. There isn't going to be a massive surge in BNP support - just a mid-term protest vote. There absolutely will not be a single BNP MP in the House of Commons after the next election. The EU is not going to ban the BNP. Nine slightly eccentric MPs in a room doesn't make a campaign. 24% of the population is a minority. IDS was a well-meaning man, but no potential PM by any stretch.

As to why he doesn't just leave the EPP straight away, I would have thought that was obvious. They are quietly sounding out potential sceptical allies, rather than just isolating themselves for no good reason. I'm sure he'll stick by his promise. By the way, "breaking promises" is not the same as saying something you know to be untrue (a lie.)

In one way, you are certainly right. If you think anyone who doesn't want to leave the EU is a Europhile, then he, most of the rest of the Tory party and more than 70% of the country share his "europhile" views. The Conservative party will not advocate withdrawal from the EU before the next general election.

It would be the Tories unilateral disarmament, with the withdrawalistas playing the role of the militant tendecy. And how long did it take Labour to recover from that?

The dead-set, fanatical withdrawalistas who can't live with compromise are holding the party back from victory.

[John Ashworth]

I am sorry to see the postings have moved away from the Fisheries debate. Cameron has made at least two terrible mistakes. Firstly, the Fisheries policy has been sent off to review to no other than John GUmmer MP.

For the 7 years of the Conservative Party having a policy of National control of Fisheries, the main arguement presented for that policy is the horrendous environmental damage caused by the Common Fisheries Policy, but who signed the Regulation on behalf of the EU Commission that caused that environmental disaster was no other than John Gummer MP.

Secondly, next year is the Scottish Parliamentary elections. The Scottish Tories will keep the policy of National control, while south of the border, there will be a NO policy on fishing. What a gift to the Nationalist, who know the Scottish Tories can only obtain National control, by Westminster being prepared to amend an Act of Parliament, which Cameron is not prepared to do.

What a mess, in such a short time. It just shows nothing is thought through.

[True Blue]

Although it might be throwing fuel on the fire that is Chad, the Imagine party got a mention in a list of eccentric parties in the Grauniad today.

[Chad]

Of course I accept Tim.

The TPA has been the most successful organisation fighting for what used to be conservative issues, and they get £100 whatever, so it is a win-win.

[James Maskell]

Again in a minority looking at the poll figures on the EU and the comments in the article on the Built to Last pamphlet. Philip Davies MP is right though...I am Better Off Out.

[Cynthia and William]

True Blue - it's true love - for our country.

OK I agree - let's not debate what will happen. Let's debate what is happening.

There has been a meeting attended by 9 Conservative MP's in contravention of Caramel's (doesn't he make you sick?) ruling to MP's not to discuss or even mention the EU.

There is a slight possibility that many others thought about being there, but felt constrained. The Northern Ireland MP's would all have attended but there was Ireland business in the House at that moment. Let's have a guess - maybe there are 70/80 MP's who feel so strongly about the European issue that they could be persuaded to move if others will.

Then let's take a look at another group. There are a significant number of Constituencies threatened by the BNP. Of the 9 that attended Davies' Better Off Out launch, interestingly 4 came from constituencies either directly threatened by BNP hot spots or very close geographically to them. If I was one of these MP's with four or so years to go til the next election, I too would be feeling nervous.

Between now and the next election, it will not be another in-fighting UKIP that causes a few wobbles at Central Office. It will be a resurgent BNP that has the ability to destroy the Conservative Party's chances of ever winning a majority at Westminster ever again.

And don't think the media provide any guide as to what is happening. Last weekend there was a banned BNP march in West Bromwich. The Police turned up to break it up, but when faced with 27,000 marchers determined to make their democratic voice heard, they backed off and the march took place.

There was no mention of this on any radio station anywhere, or any newspaper, or TV station. In media terms this significant event never happened. Following British politics today is a bit like studying UFO's. No one is legally allowed to say what they know.

The political markeplace, even with all the polling reports and columnists is therefore becoming highly unstable. The feedback loop of the people informing politicians has been disconnested. Are there space ships flying around in the sky or not? Are voters getting so angry with the traditional parties now that they want to smash the system? You are not allowed to know the answers to either question.

But work from what you do know. 9 Conservative MP's met up to break the ruling of Caramel about EU silence. It's like the gold price. This can only go one way.

[Rob G]

Going back to our editor's original comments The survey result reveals a big appetite within the Tory grassroots for practical measures to address the continuing loss of British sovereignty to the EU. This appetite will only have been encouraged by Philip Davies MP's controversial launch of the Freedom Association's 'Better Off Out' campaign.

I don't agree that this follows at all. I would certainly like to see "practical measures to address the continuing loss of British sovereignty to the EU". But I don't currently see much of an argument in favour of unilateral withdrawal from the EU. A debate on the issue would be interesting but "Better off out" is a campaign to promote the idea of withdrawal, not an attempt to debate whether withdrawal would be a good idea.

As I have posted before, I am broadly in sympathy with DC's position, which is that we should challenge "the culture of the EU. Not just resisting new regulations, but fighting to end the EU’s damaging social role, leaving it to focus on its real job: making the single market work properly and championing free trade" and "press home the arguments for radical change: returning employment and social regulation to national control.”

[Editor]

Chad: "Of course I accept Tim. The TPA has been the most successful organisation fighting for what used to be conservative issues, and they get £100 whatever, so it is a win-win."

Not quite Chad... I'll give your £100 to the Tory party!

[Richard Allen]

And don't think the media provide any guide as to what is happening. Last weekend there was a banned BNP march in West Bromwich. The Police turned up to break it up, but when faced with 27,000 marchers determined to make their democratic voice heard, they backed off and the march took place.

Actually the event you mention was not a BNP event at all. It was a St Georges Day parade which has now been held for the last five years and is a non party political event run by local people. Nick Griffin and others from the BNP were simply in attendance at this years event.

[William Norton]

What an interesting, coherent thread. Such an enjoyable way to relax after a day's campaigning.

(1) The BNP is going to sweep the country.
No, it isn't. They might do well, if not very well, in certain parts of the country. The reason for this will have nothing to do with Europe, something to do with multiculturalism but mainly to do with the way traditional unskilled working class Labour voters react to a complacent Labour council and a Labour Govmt which isn't delivering (in areas where traditional anti-Labour parties are moribund). Yes, it's worrying. But let's get the reasons for it right.

(2) People will take to the streets to defend their Britishness.
No, they won't. If they did, they wouldn't be British. We're not ruddy Frenchmen.

(3) Cameron blacklisting the Better Off Out Campaign.
Politically, he couldn't do anything else. Now is possibly not quite the right moment to launch an EU withdrawal campaign. We wouldn't want Clarke/Prescott/Hewitt/Reid/who's-next knocked off the headlines, would we?

(4) Cameron reneging on the EPP pledge.
Perhaps people are beginning to see now why not every leadership candidate last year gave the EPP pledge. The really sad thing is that when DC made it, it was so effective. Anyone disappointed can reflect that they've only themselves to blame. It might be worthwhile going back and studying exactly what DC said: I think a lot of people heard what they wanted to hear.

(5) Cameron is a Europhile
Doubt it. The interesting thing is that he ought to be, but isn't. Or perhaps the evidence isn't conclusively clear-cut one way or the other. As a latter-day representative of the Chris Patten wing he's remarkably understated on Europe and it's the best evidence yet of a genuine generational shift on the EU. In the same way that some people are small-c conservatives I'd categorise DC as a small-e eurosceptic. Richard North will disagree with me - but I think I can stand such public shame.

(6) Fox is the great lost leader of the (Eurosceptic) Right
Other theories worth an airing:
* Moon landings: NASA lied to us
* 7/11: just a bit too convenient for Mossad?
* UFOs: who shredded the X-Files?
* Loch Ness Monster: where has the EU hidden it?

[Richard North]

William - "Other theories worth an airing..."

Why stop there?

* the moon is made of green cheese
* the Boy King will become prime minister.

[CDM]

Now now children... If you want to post unfunny anti-Cameron jokes then please do it on instant messenger, that way the rest of us don't have to read them.

Chris Palmer and Chad: Get a room! Your personal dispute is of no interest to us.

Any back to the topic... I've always wondered why the Tory Party has been so afraid to attack the other parties over Europe, as withdrawal is a genuinely popular policy. The problem seems to be that Europhiles are vastly overrepresented in the PCP, and until Heseltine, Clarke and others of their ilk have left front-line politics nothing can be done.

[Chad]

Not quite Chad... I'll give your £100 to the Tory party!

It was worth a shot! ;-)

But of course I'll take the bet.

I'm hoping your 'inside' knowledge proves me wrong and Caroline Jackson explodes with rage.

[Chad]

It might be worthwhile going back and studying exactly what DC said: I think a lot of people heard what they wanted to hear.

Hi William (Norton),
Are you suggesting that Roger Helmer and the other elected tory officials all misheard Cameron?

Roger seemed perfectly clear in his interview with ToryRadio that Cameron told him 'immediate' withdrawal, but noted that as it has not happened, he hoped it would be delivered by mid-year.

And now Tim, editor of this fine and oft-quoted site has taken a £100 bet that it will be delivered before the end of the year.

I'm sure that in itself will generate interest and cause the gaskets of a few europhiles to explode. Good job too!

[True Blue]

...as withdrawal is a genuinely popular policy

It depends what you mean by popular.

Nearly 75% of the population don't support it. Tory policy is in line with the vast majority of public opinion - in fact it has the most popular European policy of all parties, as well as the most pragmatic. If you got your way (which you won't) there would be a big majority for the non-withdrawal parties. The "Big reasoned Debate" would turn into an implosion. One thing I rarely see from those in favour of withdrawal is reasoned argument based on anything other than guesswork.

Withdrawal often has unwanted consequences, and we don't want to be the ones holding the baby.

[John Hustings]

"Nearly 75% of the population don't support it. Tory policy is in line with the vast majority of public opinion - in fact it has the most popular European policy of all parties, as well as the most pragmatic. "

Would you be confident of winning a referendum on remaining in the EU? If so, why do you think politicians are so afraid of it?

[John Ashworth]

It is all well and good Rob G supporting Cameron on return of employment and social regulation to National control, but tell us how you can achieve that? - just saying so without an explanation is a con trick.

[John Rippengal]

True Blue should perhaps look at some of the many articles and papers by Patrick Minford on the economics and politics of withdrawal. He will find most of the details which he says he rarely sees.

[Chad]

Indeed, Cameron could offer a referendum on EU withdrawal.

Why not clear the decks and do this?

According to TrueBlue, it would be a no-risk, no-brainer anyway, as the majority of the public will back staying in the EU, so Cameron will be able to show his democratic credentials, win over all the sceptics, destroy UKIP, gain enough support to win the next election and finally end, one and for all, the continued calls for withdrawal, and set a clear integrated path to the future.

That is, unless they actually fear the public would back withdrawal and thus any refusal to offer a referendum is deliberately undemocratic, seeking to pursue the politicians' not the public interest.

[Chad]

As part of my effort to build a position between that of the Tory Party and UKIP, Imagine's position is to offer a referendum with the simple yes/no question:
Do you want the UK to withdraw from the EU?

That is the democratic way to end this seemingly endless and unresolvable argument over the EU. Let the people decide, then accept the decision and move on.

If the people vote to stay in, then I will happily move my position from a 3 to a 2 in the 1-4 Europhile>Europhobe scale.

Let's get it done, the move on and leave the divisions behind us!

[Lindsay Jenkins]

Here is an example of what Cameron's office is sending out to people. There is not much that is eurosceptic or indeed practical about it.

Quote: We have never pretended that all is well with the European Union. Indeed
we have long campaigned for its reform and modernisation. It does too
much and too much of what it does do, it does badly. Even the new EU
trade commissioner, Peter Mandelson, has said that if European
regulation matched best practice, Europe's productivity would grow by 2
to 6 per cent (Financial Times, 11 November 2004). It is partly for
these reasons that David Cameron has said that EU reform should have
three components. For Britain, the first priority must be the return of
powers over employment and social regulation. Second, the EU must
abandon the hubristic constitutional project once and for all. Third, we
must give the EU a clear remit to enforce trade and open markets.

However, it would be wrong for Britain to leave the EU. The EU does much
that is worthwhile. It allows people and goods to move freely across
Europe. Just as importantly it has brought stability and has helped to
entrench democracy in newly free countries.

That is why we believe it is right for Britain to remain a positive
member of the European Union, leading its reform. It is Britain's and
Europe's loss that this Government, which has had such opportunities to
lead that reform, has missed them - not least during our current
Presidency. For instance, the Prime Minister said last June that he
wanted to `get rid' of the CAP, but not only during the course of our
Presidency did the Government fail to put forward any detailed proposals
to reform the CAP, but CAP spending will be higher next year, the year
after that, and in every year up to 2013.

David Cameron hopes that you will continue to support the Conservative
Party which has the vision and determination to bring about change in
the EU so that people like yourself find the EU a help not a hindrance
in their lives.