Should Tory MEPs sit with the "homophobic" Law & Justice party?

To qualify as a recognised group within the European Parliament 19 MEPs from five different nations must be brought together (see today's Independent).  Nicholas Watt, reporting for The Guardian suggests that David Cameron's search for sufficient new partners for Tory MEPs - once he delivers on his pledge to take them out of the EPP - has taken him into negotiations with the "homophobic" Law & Justice party of Poland:

"Lech Kaczynski [pictured], Poland's president, who is a key figure in the controversial party, banned gay rights marches when he was mayor of Warsaw. He is also known as a staunch supporter of the death penalty."

Mr Watt used a October 2005 report to suggest that the EU bureaucracy was unhappy with Mr Kaczynski's views:

"Poland could lose its EU voting rights if its newly elected president continues to oppose gay rights and seeks to introduce the death penalty, the European Commission warned yesterday.  In a shot across the bows of arch-conservative Lech Kaczynski, the commission declared that all member states must abide by EU rules which protect minorities and block the death penalty."

The Financial Times notes that German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy, France's UMP leader, have threatened to end high-level contact with Britain's Conservatives if David Cameron pulls out of their EPP group.  Mr Hague told the FT that good working relations with other EU leaders matter greatly but "We won't change our position because of people threatening us in any way."  The FT concludes its piece by noting that "some Tories expect that Mr Hague will seek to remove the issue from the political agenda by allowing negotiations with potential new partners to drag on inconclusively."

Some other policies of the Law & Justice party (Prawo i Sprawiedliwość or PiS) are recorded on Wikipedia:

• "Economically, the party has rather leftist views. It supports a state-guaranteed minimum social safety-net, and intervention of the state into economic issues (within market economy bounds)."
• "PiS supports free education in elementary and secondary schools and free health care."
• "PiS also supported Poland's military presence in Iraq in recent years. Following the election, it declared that Polish soldiers will remain in Iraq for another 12 months"
• "The party opposes e.g.: legalization of euthanasia, abortion, registration of homosexual marriages. It postulates a return of capital punishment, which according to opinion polls is supported by 77% of Poles.  PiS oppose the legalization of so-called soft drugs."

The Independent notes that Mr Cameron has already ruled out grouping with the French Front National or Alessandra Mussolini, granddaughter of the Italian wartime dictator.  He has not ruled out co-operating with the Law & Justice party, however.  It would be good to know if you think he should...

5 FEBRUARY: VOTING IN THIS POLL HAS NOW CLOSED

322 votes were received...

• 53% said "Yes, it is is vital that Tories leave the federalist EPP and the L&J party's social views are not relevant."
• 36% said "No, the Conservative Party should not be aligned with a group with 'homophobic' views. We should wait until better partners are found."
• 9% said "No, Conservative MEPs should not leave the EPP at all."

Comments

[Goldie]

What does the EU and EU-policy have to do with gay rights in Poland, exactly?

The only relevant issue is whether Law & Justice agrees with the Tories on EU-policies. If it is in favor of further European integration, it's not a partner, if not, then it is.

Other relevant allies ought to be the small Christian-protestant parties from The Netherlands, SGP/ChristenUnie. We may not share much of their domestic agenda, but they agree entirely with us on EU-wide policies and are very respectable parties.

[Goldie]

An excellent Law & Justice cabinet minister, for Defense, is my acquaintance Radek SIKORSKI. Just google him to found out how sound he is (married to Anne Applebaum and formerly with AEI in Washington DC).

[Ritvars Eglājs]

I`d say europhiles demonise Poles. Tremble, perfidious Tories!

[Guido Fawkes]

These Poles basically take an orthodox Catholic political stance. It has come to something when the Guardian seeks to make Catholic's pariahs.

As for them being leftists, don't believe everything you read on the internet! Radek is as hawkish as you get.

[Gareth]

Funny how so many tories find prejudice against gay people so acceptable/excusable/ignorable.

[Ted]

In an EU context, while I'd prefer socially liberal partners, I think its more about EU politics we should be concerned. Gareth makes a point about opposition to gay partnerships - something I approve of - but surely thats a national decision and shouldn't be imposed from without? We aren't going into a coalition for government of a state.
Do we leave NATO because the US, Turkey and other allies are also against gay partnerships?
David Davis is a proponent of capital punishment - should we throw him out? there are opponents of civil partnerships in our party - do we eject them? I oppose abortion and euthenasia - should I resign?
These are matters of conscience - of course we shouldn't even consider aligning with parties of fascist or racsist bent or aligning with nationalist neo-communist ones just because they are anti-federalist. The party of the Polish Govt is a respectable party.

[David]

It is shocking that the Tory Europhiles are blackguarding their party's potential allies like this. For the record, the gay rights march in question was banned by the Mayor of Cracow - who was a member, not of Law and Justice, but of the EPP Party in Poland, Civic Platform. Its organisers then asked to move it to Warsaw on the same day as a scheduled parade by a Catholic group. Kaczynski, who had allowed two previous gay pride marches as mayor, told them that they had to choose a different date. They refused, and the march did not go ahead.

What is really significant here, though, is the extraordinary double standard being applied by pro-EPP MEPs, as well as by the Guardian and Independent. Look at the parties currently in the EPP, for Heaven's sake: the German CDU, which ran a blatantly racist campaign against the immigration of some Indian computer programmers with the slogan "Children, Not Indians"; the coalition partners of the Austrian Freedom Party; the parties of those paragons of uprightness, Jacques Chirac and Silvio Berlusconi. And look at the persistent anti-gay voting record of the EPP, both in Brussels and in their home countries. It is outrageous that all this should be considered acceptable simply because they are pro-euro and in favour of the EU constitution; and that opposing the constitution should be taken as ipso facto proof of extremism.

These stories will continue to be planted by Tory EU-fanatics for as long as William Hague dithers. He should get on with it.

[Will James]

Whatever happens, if Hague does try to draw this out, for whatever reason, I certainly won't be giving him a strong approval rating in next month's poll. This is no time to "drag on inconclusively".

[Richard]

The Conservative Party even under David Cameron has very little in common with its fellow EPP-ED members. In fact on most issues we even produce our own whip and vote against the EPP-ED. As Roger Helmer has pointed out time and time again since being expelled from the EPP-ED he has been given more money and greater speaking time in Parliament. Roger has also produced a brilliant article arguing why we should leave the EPP-ED.

Now German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy, France's UMP leader can make all the threats they want, but I really can't see them ignoring us if we were to win the General Election.

The views of the Law and Justice Party on gay rights and the death penalty are not relevant to whether we sit with them or not. Firstly Poland would be expelled from the EU if they reintroduced the death penalty and on the issue of gay rights, there are numerous MEPs that sit within the EPP-ED that hold equally strong views.

[malcolm]

Agree with you totally Ted and some interesting points David.Are you going to try and back up your assertions Gareth?

[James Hellyer]

It has come to something when the Guardian seeks to make Catholic's pariahs.

Not read a Polly Toynbee column lately?

And making Catholics pariahs seems standard EU practice. Remember the fuss over Baroso's original Commission nominees?

[Account Deleted]

I think as long as any party doesn't try to criminalise homosexuality then it should be up to them whether they are in favour of 'gay rights'.

As a gay man I don't like people who are obviously prejudiced against gay people to the extent they don't treat us with the same courtesy as other individuals, people like Adrian Rogers (in Exeter), but other than that people are free to hold their own opinions.

So we shouldn't not sit with them on the basis they are 'homophobic'. They are just anti gay rights. There is a huge difference. To not sit with them on this basis means entrenching political correctness rather than free speech.
(If they supported jailing or violence etc against gay people that would be another matter).

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

I agree with all those who have argued that whilst we may not agree with their domestic social agenda, that's of little relevance to the issue at hand. If taking the PiS out of the pro-federalist group is what we have to do to advance the non-federalist cause, then so be it.

[Sam Coates]

If taking the PiS out of the pro-federalist group is what we have to do to advance the non-federalist cause, then so be it.

I thought eurosceptics took the 'PiS' out of federalists all the time.

[Guido Fawkes]

Very good Dan, you can be my deputy one day.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"Very good Dan, you can be my deputy one day."

I'm still miffed that my invitation to John Hemming's campaign thanks party wasn't as exclusive as I thought, Guido.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

At home we are, quite rightly, positioning ourselves as "modern, compassionate and caring". In the European Parliament, we are negotiating with the Law and Justice Party, one of Europe's most homophobic parties. What is modern, compassionate and caring about that? What if the L&J party was racist... ???

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Or anti-Semitic (which they probably are!).

[Sean Fear]

One has no choice but to ally with some very odd bedfellows in the European Parliament.

[Sam Coates]

I'm still miffed that my invitation to John Hemming's campaign thanks party wasn't as exclusive as I thought, Guido.
It's funny that you got invited in the first place though!
I suspect that by 'Dan' Guido might've meant 'Sam'... but I don't want to deflate your ego Daniel! (You said I inflated it yesterday)

[Gillibrand]

"One has no choice but to ally with some very odd bedfellows in the European Parliament."
Chances of forming a reforming group less than zero. And I agree with Edward Macmillan-Scott (!!!). Why are the Tories heading left at home (towards Christian Democracy!) and to the right in Europe?

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"In the European Parliament, we are negotiating with the Law and Justice Party, one of Europe's most homophobic parties. What is modern, compassionate and caring about that?"

Justin, the domestic social agenda of PiS has little relevance to the European issue. In any case, as David pointed out, telling gay rights groups they cannot schedule their march on the same day as a Catholic march is logical, not homophobic.

"Or anti-Semitic (which they probably are!)."

Given the implied threats of legal action you were hurling around the other day, one might have thought you'd be a bit careful about making such allegations.

"I suspect that by 'Dan' Guido might've meant 'Sam'... but I don't want to deflate your ego Daniel! (You said I inflated it yesterday)"

Possibly. Although we essentially made the same joke. My ego and I are going to go and sulk in the corner... ;-)

[Ted]

Sorry Justin but as long as they go along with the basic rights Poland signed up to then I don't think we have the right to impose our social views on them. The alliance is at EU level - supporting the rights of states to be different, to control their own destinies.

I'm with Widdy on this when she spoke about the Rev Ian Paisley " As I have said before, the right hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) should be allowed to say, if he wants to...that I have signed up with the Antichrist. ... that when I go into a church in which there are statues, I am practising idolatry. ...that when I take part in the sacrifice of the mass, I am committing blasphemy. "

This party includes people who think apparently that we are psycholochically damaged or that homosexuality is wrong/a sin..should we support ejecting them from this party for saying that?

Googling the EU alliances I noted that Fianna Fail seems happy to be in the same grouping as the Italian party that claim descent from the neo-fascists together with a real rag bag of right wing nationalist parties. Odd bedfellows indeed.

[Sean Fear]

"Or anti-Semitic (which they probably are!)."

You're probably confusing them with the Polish Families League (UKIP's partners).

[Sam Coates]

The BBC have put together a summary of our likely Euro partners.
Sorry Daniel, I didn't realise you said that as a joke as well!

[malcolm]

Could somebody explain why it is necessary to ally ourselves with anybody?
Does the 'influence' we would allegedly lose really amount to much to the welfare of this country?

[Richard]

The British Conservative Party has nothing in common with the EPP-ED. As I have already said we already produce our own whip and vote against them week in week out. Even federalist MEPs like Edward Macmillan-Scott regularly vote against the EPP-ED!

Withdrawing from the EPP-ED is neither a right wing nor a left wing issue and to portray it as such just goes to show how little some people know. In 1983 the British Labour Party produced a very left wing manifesto which included withdrawal from the EU; did that make them right wing? Of course not.

As has been pointed out already by others, we already sit in a group that is full of crooks, homophobes and racists. All that is being proposed is that we leave this group and form a group that is more in line with our thinking. This new group will be broadly pro-American, free market, anti-Euro/Constitution and broadly sceptical of the EU in general but will not be a withdrawalist group.

I can't understand the people on this site who suddenly seem to think we are going to be setting up shop with a load of Nazi, anti-Semitic, racist gay bashers. We are not so please can we have a serious debate.

[Sam Coates]

BBC - Some loss of influence is inevitable, because the new group will not be as big as the EPP-ED, which currently holds 263 of the parliament's 732 seats.
Not true! From what I understand, the smaller the group you are the higher the proportion of funding and speaking time you get.

[Richard]

Sam you are right. Just look at the latest exract from Roger Helmer's newsletter.

"Tony Blair came to Brussels on December 20th to report on the achievements of the British Presidency of the EU (July/Dec '05), but he had little success to report. I was again the first Conservative to speak in the debate (the advantages of being an independent!), and I made what I might modestly describe as one of the most scarifying speeches of my career. Full details and photo on the website.

"Your legacy, Prime Minister? You will be remembered as the man who squandered Margaret Thatcher's legacy!".

I am delighted to say that my intervention got more media coverage than I have ever achieved before. But if I had still been with the EPP, I should never have got to speak in the debate, and never had a chance to attack Blair's give-away of our money."

[Daniel Hannan]

Anti-semitic? I know this is an online discussion, guys, but please don't let's flout the libel laws. The Deputy Prime Minister of Poland, who is the second most senior figure in PiS, is Jewish. No other Polish party has so highly placed a Jewish politician. PiS spent a substantial sum on the holocaust memorial in Warsaw and has strong support from diaspora Jewish groups.

Nor, by the way, are they homophobic. It is bizarre that a British newspaper should be levelling this charge when none of their domestic rivals in Poland does so. Law and Justice is a pluralist party, committed to human rights and the equality of all citizens before the law.

What we are seeing was drearily predictable: any party that comes out against the EU constitution is automatically attacked as extreme, while the crooks inside the EPP are "moderate" because they happen to be federalists. I can understand why the Grauniad wants to take this line, but it is disappointing to see Useful Idiots on this list falling for it.

[Ted]

I assume the BBC & Guardian etc. have memories of discussions about the Union for Europe of the Nations, the one with Fianna Fail in it, whereas we seem to be trying to break that one as well as EPP-ED by taking out the more acceptable non-federalists from both. Lazy journalism - presumably some euro-bureaucrate whispered that if we left EPP then we'd be isolated with only the EUN a suitable home.

Though the objectives of the UEN look closer to ours than the EPP-ED some of the members are ones I wouldn't like allied to us.
http://www.uengroup.org/home.html

[malcolm]

Thanks for clearing that up Daniel.I suspect the mistake has been made by those on this blog because they actually believed something they read in a British newspaper,having worked for three of them it is often I assure you a mistake!
You also have my sympathy in having to work with Edward Mcmillan-Scott,his behaviour on Newsnight was outrageous.Anyone would assume he was representing the Labour party rather than us.Perhaps he was.

[James Hellyer]

Actually it appears to have been a straight invention.

[Sean Fear]

Thanks for clearing that up, Daniel.

It's clearly okay to hate homosexuals, or be a fascist, so long as you're a europhile hater of homosexuals or fascist.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"What we are seeing was drearily predictable: any party that comes out against the EU constitution is automatically attacked as extreme, while the crooks inside the EPP are "moderate" because they happen to be federalists. I can understand why the Grauniad wants to take this line."

I'm sure all this media talk of the Conservatives cosying up to extremists is completely unrelated to the fact that the Labour government was defeated twice last night. Oh no.

Alastair Campbell must have been roaring with laughter over his cornflakes this morning.

[Mike Christie]

Doesn't the fact that we seem to have to choose allying with parties that have fundamental differences of ethos with us show just how ridiculous the system is.

As for the Poles, unless they have introduced or advocate blatantly homophobic policies it seems that we simply have a party that is socially conservative in a country that is fairly socially conservative... dear me stop the presses.

I'd far rather that we sat with a party that took a traditional line on family issues than one that wanted a federal Europe.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

"I'd far rather that we sat with a party that took a traditional line on family issues than one that wanted a federal Europe," says Mark.

I'd rather we sat with centre-right parties who champion Europe, human rights and are socially liberal.

Remember what Pastor Martin Niemöller said:

'When they came for the Jews, I was a not a Jew, so I did not speak out. When they came for the trade unionists, I was not a trade unionist, so I did not speak out. When they came for the queers, I was not a homosexual, so I did not speak out. When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out’.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[James Hellyer]

Justin, there's a huge difference between being socially conservative and being a Nazi.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Not much of a difference in MHO.

[Sean Fear]

Is that last comment meant seriously, Justin?

[Sean Fear]

Time to invoke Godwin's Law, I think.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Yes and no. Certainly there are those who call themselves 'social conservatives' (many of them religious and based in the States)who want to use the law to discriminate against certain groups –causing heartache, depression and, in some cases, suicide. I watched a programme recently where a gay man from Washington swapped places with a woman from the ‘Deep South’. What I saw was truly astonishing! The gay man who moved in (for a week) with this woman's husband and was treated appallingly. The husband's pastor said that he was allowing vermin into his house - how terrible, how unchristian! Now, tell me, how was HIS thinking that different from Hitler's?

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"The husband's pastor said that he was allowing vermin into his house - how terrible, how unchristian! Now, tell me, how was HIS thinking that different from Hitler's?"

Did the pastor advocate extermination of the gay man?

Speaking of the Nazis, what are your views on their treatment of those dastardly elderly bed-blockers Justin?

[Sean Fear]

It's quite possible to be socially conservative without describing homosexuals as "vermin". That said, it's possible to believe that homosexuals are "vermin" without wanting their extermination.

Anne Widdecombe is socially conservative (and with views on homosexuality that are quite different to your own); but to imply that she is almost a Nazi would be utterly ludicrous IMO.

[libertorian]

Remember what Pastor Martin Niemöller said

Am I the only one struggling to realise the relevance of that quote to this debate?

[Sam Coates]

Gay.com seems to disagrees with our emerging consensus on this (apart from Justin's comments that is)

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

I wouldn't be surprised if he and his ilk did.

So you want to discuss bed-blocking on this thread? Not sure if our Editor would be too happy with us diverting from the main topic. But for for the record, there are too many elderly people 'bed-blocking' in our hospitals and, no, I don't blame them but the system. Too many regulations have been issued from this Labour government - forcing thousands of care homes to close. It's a real problem!

[Sean Fear]

Gay Com's report seems to be lifted from that on the Guardian website.

Given the choice of believing Daniel Hannan or the Guardian I know who I'll opt for.

[Mike Christie]

Justin, I find your comments highly offensive, implying that because I believe in the traditional family as a important part of society that I am not much different from a Nazi.

Your experience of 'Alabama wife swap' or whatever TV trash it was is hardly representative.

We have already seen one perfectly plausible explanation for why the gay pride march (by the way I spent several years doing voluntary work for an organisation that helped provide security for many gay pride events) was banned.

Are we going to fall for the BBC rubbish? If the SiP are homophobic on the basis of one march being stopped, what does that say about Blair, anti-war protesters arrested, free Tibet protesters harrassed and arrested and all the rest of it?

If the SiP were persecuting gays then I would be against an alliance with them, do not trivialise the sufferings of the truly persecuted by comparing them to one march being cancelled on what may have been purely practical grounds.

Don't forget that our fantastic socially liberal policies are responsible for the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe, an explosion in youth crime and the wonderful notion that parents can be fined if their child doesn't attend school, but not have any right to know if their child is considering an abortion.

There is a world of difference between equality and untramelled social liberalism.

[Sam Coates]

Oh and Justin, please refrain from offensive generalisations.
In just this thread you've been rebuked by Daniel Hannan MEP for saying the PiS were probably anti-semitic, and then drawn comparisons between social conservatives - which most of us are to some extent - and Hitler and his Nazi party!

[Ted]

Gay.com seems to think Cashman represents a dis-interested observer.

Its just basically another bit of lazy journalism replaying Guardian, BBC articles.

[Mike Christie]

Just to clarify, 'our socially liberal policies' refers to the country's rather than the party's!

[Mike Christie]

"his postings are personal, spiteful and often incorrect and loopy

Oh the irony!

[Sam Coates]

Can I remind everyone of this sites Comments Policy
Swearing is included, and so is calling a fellow commenter "a nasty piece of work".
Repeat offenders will be banned.

Thanks.

[Account Deleted]

What is going on in Poland doesn't sound particularly great.

But remember if we were in Poland we would have heard how we are all racists in the Tory party as we oppose mass immigration and government sponsored multiculturalism. You have to remember things are often presented in a skewed way. The SiP are not ideal, but they are closer to us than many of the groups in the EPP.

And I do think you are taking this out of proportion Justin. The SiP being against gay marriage does not equate to us being gassed to death. Lots of people are (unfortunately) against gay rights without being aggressive and homophobic like the idiot from wifeswap, and you can't just refuse to talk to them or sit with them.

[Chris Palmer]

"Lots of people are (unfortunately) against gay rights" - 1AM

In your opinion.

[John Hustings]

"David Davis is a proponent of capital punishment - should we throw him out? there are opponents of civil partnerships in our party - do we eject them? I oppose abortion and euthenasia - should I resign?"

I think it's funny that the tone of witchhunts so often seems to come from the "liberal left". I think the socially conservative right of the party are often alot more "tolerant" than many so-called social liberals.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

One can be totally opposed to abortion, as I am, but a liberal. Lots of colleagues who oppose abortion do so from a religious prospective - I don't.

[Gareth]

Seems that Mr Hannan needs a refresher on the libel laws himself. First, you can't 'libel' a political party and second, describing members of the EPP as 'crooks' is potentially defamatory.

As for being a 'Useful Idiot' - one for the libel lawyers again?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

One can be totally opposed to abortion, as I am, but a liberal. Lots of colleagues who oppose abortion do so from a religious prospective - I don't.

[Account Deleted]

""Lots of people are (unfortunately) against gay rights" - 1AM

In your opinion."

Yes, in my opinion. I don't want to start an argument here that has been exhausted elsewhere. The point is that everyone is entitled to their opinion, including the SiP.

[Mike Christie]

As for being a 'Useful Idiot' - one for the libel lawyers again? Which word do you feel to be libellous? ;-)

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Fortunately, the majority of our MEPs do not share Mr. Hannan's view. As a matter of fact, he recently stood for the leadership of the Conservative Group and was thrashed by Timothy Kirkhope. If Hannan dislikes the EPP so much, why did he stand on a manifesto committing membership of it until 2009? He should have stood as an Independent, but then we wouldn't have got in...

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

1am, you see what we're up against?

[Spagbob]

i thought getting out of the EPP was about creating a pro-open free market, pro-atlanticist grouping. that has nothing to do with gay rights or anything else. it shouldn't have any effect what their social views are as long as they support an open free market europe and an atlanticist treaty.

and also, what right does the EU have to decide whether or not a country can impose the death penalty or stop gay rights. the EU is supposed to be about markets and economics not law and order.

[Sean Fear]

If Hannan dislikes the EPP so much, why did he stand on a manifesto committing membership of it until 2009?

Because the Conservative leader of the day said they were to be part of the EPP. The Conservative leader of the day now says they're not be part of the EPP.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Whether we like it or not, the EU has social responsibilities and is committed to human rights. It's not all about money and making a nice tidy sum through the free-market.

[Chris Palmer]

Personally, I believe that Justin Hinchcliffe is a bad influence on this blog. Anyone who starts threatening others with court action or libel needs to take stock. The last person who did that was a certain, Mike Smith. He was banned.

I will repeat what I wrote on here the other day:

"As someone sensibly commented on another thread, this blog is becoming increasingly polarised in its expressed opinions. It’s often difficult to work out whether posters are actually Conservatives or people with an agenda to create divisions.

The Leadership contest is over. David Cameron won, whether you voted for him or not. Please, can we not continually refer to one another as David Davis or David Cameron supporters. We are all Conservative supporters (I hope) and therefore to an extent, we should be getting behind the leader and our party. If you disagree with a certain aspect of policy, then fine, but don’t criticise at an individual level. It does the party no favours – whoever is leader."

Tim and Sam, if you're reading, this thread has become a typical example of why I would not actively encourage Conservative members and voters to visit this site. The threat has become a tirade of personal insults and needs sorting out.

[Chris Palmer]

"The thread has become" (rather.)

[Spagbob]

"Whether we like it or not, the EU has social responsibilities and is committed to human rights. It's not all about money and making a nice tidy sum through the free-market."

i disagree. human rights are a matter for the nation-state to decide, not some bureaucratic superstate. and anyway, some people who support human rights also support the death penalty.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

CP, I only threaten libel action because a certain person more or less accused me of being a racist. Normally I would have ignored such a silly view but as it was said publicly on this site and I am a constituency Chairman, I could not let the matter go unchallenged. The said person subsequently apologised and I accepted his apology. Who would act differently?

[John Hustings]

Chris,

I don't think the disputes on this thread have anything to do with divisions between Cameron and Davis supporters.

[Gareth]

Just exchanged e-mails with a friend of mine who lives in Warsaw. She tells me that Lech Kacynski did indeed ban a Gay Pride march and replaced it with what was charmingly called a 'Normality March'. the so-called 'Normality March' was apparently followed by a night of gay-bashing in Warsaw.

Let's have Mr Kacynski on the platform at our next conference shall we? Should do wonders for our image.

[Chris Palmer]

"I don't think the disputes on this thread have anything to do with divisions between Cameron and Davis supporters." - John Husting

You're right. I was just re-posting something I had written on another thread. However, this particular thread has become insulting - and other threads in the past have become polarised or both.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

You've all gone silent on that one...

[Jonathan Sheppard]

Can anyone confirm a certain Mr Adam Ricketts will be appearing on question time as trailed by both Iain Dale and Guido?

[Spagbob]

"You've all gone silent on that one..."

what one justin?

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Gareth's posting.

[Spagbob]

"For the record, the gay rights march in question was banned by the Mayor of Cracow - who was a member, not of Law and Justice, but of the EPP Party in Poland, Civic Platform. Its organisers then asked to move it to Warsaw on the same day as a scheduled parade by a Catholic group. Kaczynski, who had allowed two previous gay pride marches as mayor, told them that they had to choose a different date. They refused, and the march did not go ahead."

i think i'll beleive david on this one

[Gareth]

Daniel Hannan wrote:

"Nor, by the way, are they homophobic"

Really? Don't have to spend long on google before you find this:

"Jarosław Kaczyński said that homosexuals should not be teachers, but that homosexuals would not be persecuted.[4]. On September 22, 2005, another member of PiS, Adam Bielan, in an interview on TVP, made statements indicating that PiS does not yet have a clear policy on whether or not homosexuals should be accepted in jobs in which there is close contact with children.[5]"

What a delightful bunch they're turning out to be.

[Gareth]

Another liberal feather in their cap:

"On November 4, 2005, the PiS-led government closed down the Office of Government Representative for the Equal Status of Women and Men (polish: Biura pełnomocnika rządu ds. równego statusu kobiet i mężczyzn). The following day, Magdalena Środa was removed from her job as Government Representative for the Equal Status of Women and Men, which she had held since September 2004."

[Spagbob]

Gareth, its quite possile it was shut down becuase it was a wasteful and bureaucratic department, not out of spite. i thought as conservatives we're committed to cutting down the size of government.

[Sean Fear]

I've no objection to the latter move. I'd be just as happy to see us close down bodies like the EOC and CRE.

[Richard]

"Fortunately, the majority of our MEPs do not share Mr. Hannan's view. As a matter of fact, he recently stood for the leadership of the Conservative Group and was thrashed by Timothy Kirkhope."

As a matter of fact it was Chris Heaton-Harris who stood against Timothy Kirkhope and not Daniel Hannan.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

My point still stands.

[Gareth]

Thank you Spagbob! I wondered how many seconds it would be before someone suggested this was a sound, cost saving measure.

But I suspect sex equality is somewhat further down the line in Poland than it is here, don't you?

[Spagbob]

"But I suspect sex equality is somewhat further down the line in Poland than it is here, don't you?"

i dont know enough about polish politics to argue with you on this one Gareth.

[Gareth]

When he banned his first gay pride march (for he has banned two) our new friend commented:

"The gay and lesbian demonstration was said to be "sexually obscene" and a "danger to the public morality". He said the demonstration's objective was to spread pornography and to hurt others' religious feelings"

[Mike Christie]

Justin, as you 'more or less accused me' of being a Nazi and are yet to apologise or clarify your remark, maybe I as a branch chairman and council candidate should be thinking of calling my lawyer... or perhaps I should just 'ignore such a silly point of view.'

[Sean Fear]

So, assuming that our MEPs will at some point be part of the same group as Law and Justice, what would you intend to do about it, Gareth?

[Spagbob]

"The gay and lesbian demonstration was said to be "sexually obscene" and a "danger to the public morality".

probably quite right too.

and justin i answered your point. i said i beleived david's comment instead.

[Gareth]

It gets better. When the march organisers wanted to meet our hero, to discuss his reasons for banning the march, guess what happened?

"According to Polish press reports the mayor had refused offers to talk with the organisers of the CSD, pointing out that "he was not willing to meet perverts"."

[Spagbob]

"According to Polish press reports"

there you have it gareth, that is why i believe david not you.

[Gareth]

Thanks 'spagbob'for revealing your true colours. For a moment I almost took you seriously.

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

Mike, do as you please. Sean, not much we can do except go down with a 4th election defeat not on this issue alone but by our general stance on modern life.

[Gareth]

Sean,

What on earth do you mean???

[Spagbob]

"Thanks 'spagbob'for revealing your true colours. For a moment I almost took you seriously."

what's that supposed to mean?

[Gareth]

Spagbob,

Dave wrote:

'For the record, the gay rights march in question was banned by the Mayor of Cracow - who was a member, not of Law and Justice, but of the EPP Party in Poland, Civic Platform'

In fact, the equally unlovely Mayor of Cracow also banned a gay rights march. But your new mate Mr Kacynski banned two.

It must be lovely to live in a world where you can simply 'not believe' that which you don't want to believe.

[Mike Christie]

When he banned his first gay pride march (for he has banned two) our new friend commented:

"The gay and lesbian demonstration was said to be "sexually obscene" and a "danger to the public morality".

Having seen several gay pride marches in the UK, his viewpoint is not entirely without merit. I have seen displays on some floats that certainly push the bounds of decency. I'm all for equality, and I'm very broad minded, but if I want to watch simulated S&M I'll do it in private at a time of my choosing rather than see it driving through the centre of Manchester on a Saturday afternoon.

[Ted]

Chris Palmer
This title of this thread is "provocative" in that it specifically draws attention to the comments of Guardian/BBC etc about alleged homophobia. So its likely to draw out polarised opinions (blogs do).

It seems obvious that PiS does reflect the prevaling moral view of a Roman Catholic electorate - sorry Gareth, Justin but my church does view acts of homosexuality as a sin. I'm therefore a sinner.

However I'm a tolerant guy - meaning I tolerate other people's opinions NOT that I expect absolutely that other people will tolerate mine - so I forgive the pope, Curia and fellow communicants their, in my view, wrongheaded approaches. If they decided to bring back the Holy Inquisition I might not be so tolerant.

The EU however appears intolerant - a devout Catholic, Mormon, Muslim is apparently incompetent to take a role in the European Project unless they, against conscience, sign up to a package of social liberal policies.

Racism isn't a matter of conscience. Attacking, ridiculing, imprisoning, beating up gay men isn't either - and if the PiS did bring in discriminatory laws in employment then I'd have problems with them as partners. But just because they are Catholics?