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Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

Tosh. The Americans are just about to cock it up even more by attacking Iran. Bonkers.

Take their and the Israelis guns and cluster bombs away. Work for a non-sectarian, definitely non-Zionist state in the Holy Land.

Increase trade with Iran while putting sanctions on individuals within the regime. Let the sunshine in. Listen to and work (in a subordinate way) with Gulf allies as they negotiate with and contain Iran and Iraq. Stop governing from 20,000ft.

I admit I'm stumped on Afghanistan and Pakistan! Funnily enough, Iran holds many of the answers to Afghanistan (as does Pakistan, of course). So we'd better make up, hadn't we?

Stand by for a load of Conservative Friends of Israel effluent in following posts. :(

Simon Newman

The Gods of the Copybook Headings


AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.
We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will bum,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return.

Tony Makara

As a collector of American movies from the 1930-1960 era I've always had a love for the America of that era, the America of white picket fences, of saying grace before meals and the bounding optimism of that era.

I've often wondered why I don't much like American films after say 1963 and I think its because America did change fundamentally during the 1960s and has been spiraling downwards ever since. Civilizations develop and peak, which America did between 1945 to about 1965 but then like all civilizations America went into decline.

The America of today is a poisoned society, poisoned by its music rap, r.n,b and related drug culture, poisoned by its media, poisoned by its money corrupted political system. America is fast becoming a rotting corpse. There are still healthy elements in America who could turn things around but they are fast disappearing.

Moral minority

This a typical neo-con trick. Lilico is attempting smear anti-Bushism as anti-Americanism.

Henry Mayhew is right. The Republican Party has been taken over by faction that puts the interests of Israel before that of the American people and world peace. Sadly, too many of our own MPs are under the malign influence of the neo-cons and their allies in Conservative Friends of Israel.

Russell Kirk, the Founder of American Conservatism as the author of "The Conservative Mind", remarked to Heritage Foundation in 1988 and 1991 "not seldom has it seemed as if some eminent Neoconservatives mistook Tel Aviv for the capital of the United States". That is even more true nearly 20 years later!

Malcolm Dunn

I agree with the general principle behind this article. The USA is now so much more powerful militarily and economically than anyone else their reaction to criticism should be 'So What?'
It does amaze me when looking at Tim's other blog Britain & America that so many American posters are (a) full of whining self pity and (b)regard any criticism of the Bush regime as 'anti American'.
When Britain used to come in for considerable criticism at Commonwealth Conferences for our trade links to South A frica did we really care? Of course not.

Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

Good post Moral Minority, especially the beginning of your 2nd para, which is excellent :)

The lengthy poetic cry for help above seems to have stumped the immoral minority, or perhaps we have converted them.

Damon Lambert

Much anti-americanism arises from left-wing ignorance. The US record of charitable giving shames most of Europe. NAFTA has reaped benefits for the lowly paid of many countries as have the bilateral trade agreements the Democrats wish to stop.

What's wrong with being pro-Israel? Its democratic, capitalist, and surely warrants protection against militaristic anti-semitism in the area.

Andrew Lilico

I am certainly not suggesting that it is because America is so powerful militarily and economically that she should say "So what?"! Neither am I, contra the interpretation of certain commenters, interpreting all criticism of America or Americans as anti-Americanism - indeed I argue explicitly against such an interpretation.

What I *am* saying is that it is a mistake to imagine, as America often does, that being hated means either that one has done something wrong or that one is misunderstood. One is often hated precisely because one has done the Right Thing - indeed that is amongst the surest ways to become widely hated. America could only cease to be widely hated if she ceased to (in the main) do the Right Thing - not a course I would commend.

William Norton

Consider also Recessional?

GOD of our fathers, known of old—
Lord of our far-flung battle-line—
Beneath whose awful Hand we hold
Dominion over palm and pine—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies—
The captains and the kings depart—
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

Far-call'd our navies melt away—
On dune and headland sinks the fire—
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe—
Such boasting as the Gentiles use
Or lesser breeds without the Law—
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget, lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard—
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding calls not Thee to guard—
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy Mercy on Thy People, Lord!

William Norton

Henry Mayhew: having posted twice, you seem to want to provoke a response. That's a bit like firing rockets over a border.

I have a question for you. Suppose someone does "Take [the Americans'] and the Israelis guns and cluster bombs away". What happens if someone else still keeps firing rockets at the resulting "non-sectarian, definitely non-Zionist state in the Holy Land"? Just asking out of interest.

Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

Hello William. Have you thought of taking a course in philosophy with critical thinking? That might help you answer the questions you ask yourself.

Since you actively want my opinion (good alternative) I suggest that you are running the risk of demonising the displaced local inhabitants rather than accepting that they have extremely serious and genuine grievances with the Zionist entity. The Israeli population themselves will eventually realise that peace is available in return for justice. It always is.


I agree with the much of Andrew's explanation for anti-Americanism. (I am reminded of the recent outburst by the Australian rugby official who declared that everyone hated the English. I am sure that in the near future a programme will be made by the BBC telling us why everone one hates the English). The top dog, like authority, is seldom liked.
Interesting comments you make about Israel, Henry (Mayhew). Perhaps you can keep us up to date as what has been happening there since 1948. Or perhaps you can send your version of events to Melanie Phillips and give us her reply. Unlike yourself (I know it shows) I have never had the opportunity to enrol on a philosophy course. Should be interesting correspondence - the philosopher Henry Mayhew (Kipper) and Melanie Phillips (Kosher). The situation has nothing to do with religious hatred, I am sure. (I get that impression from the president of Iran and Osaman Bin Laden).

William Norton

Henry Mayhew: thanks for the tip, but why would I waste years on a philosophy course, when you're handing out immediate wisdom for free?

For instance, up until now my thinking was that you can't have a unilateral peace, i.e. that it takes both sides to believe they have more to lose from not making a deal, and enough trust in the other side to keep to the deal. I'd never realised that peace is always available in return for justice (judged by whom?), and that all you have to do to make the bad people go away is give them what they want.

But humour me a little: just suppose that Israel did everything you want but by a bizarre unheard of piece of bad luck, some forces (we'll call them rogue elements) kept on attacking them. How would you react?

Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

Bill, me old chum, sadly like many, many, people in the West who sound off about the Middle East, you are not personally familiar with the area, are you? You believe 'they' hate 'us' because of who we are not what we do. Fundamental misconception.

We have sinned by assisting Israel in being unjust. Injustice breeds violence. If local arab people are allowed to have ownership of freedoms and assets they should by rights enjoy, they are more than powerful enough to protect them from unspecified others who might wish to attack.

On top of that, the arab governments in the Gulf are conservative and friendly, yes, even Saudi Arabia. Syria could not stand against all these parties. Without Syria, Iran is powerless on the Meditteranean.

By the way, the displaced cannot hope to return in full to Israel and arab governments are beginning to realise this. Compensation and resettlement are required. The first point should be to record previous family deeds and rights within Israel. The second should be for an apology to be made to these people by Israel and the West. There should be a Truth and Justice Commission. Then there should be sharing of Israeli financial assets as is happening in South Africa, and further compensation and resettlement partly funded by Gulf states. Israel should become a modern, non-sectarian state. A meeting place of cultures.

Northern Ireland is being solved, I hope South Africa is. Israel is not impossible if the Israelis start to apologise. Arabs are magnificent people with a tremendously valuable religion that values peace and reconciliation but abhores surrender and humiliation. I hope you find this interesting and useful.

Andrew Lilico

Why is a discussion about anti-Americanism turning into a discussion about whether Israel should apologize to someone? The question wasn't "Why do people hate Israel?" It was "Why do people hate America, and does that matter?"

I don't accept for one nano-second that hatred of the US has anything, per se, to do with Israel. The US involvement with Israel is simply one manifestation of its desire to do the Right Thing, its desire to side with the righteous oppressed, its desire to promote Judaeo-Christian values. The US has involved itself in many other situations that were manifestly nothing to do with Israel and that have led to opprobrium - take Vietnam, the Phillipines, Chile, Serbia, and many others. Indeed, it seems clear to me that situations such as Iraq and Afganistan are, likewise, nothing whatever to do with Israel (despite the connections alleged by the Bad Guys).

People hate America because it is good and rich and strong, because it believes itself righteous and true, and because it involves itself in the affairs of other nations. This would be just as true, even if I agreed with everything the US does and has done, as it is despite the fact that I disagree with the US both in specific cases of its intervention and in almost all cases in the details of how it goes about intervening.

William Norton

Henry Mayhew: very interesting, thanks, but no, not very helpful. Sadly, in your warm-hearted eagerness to respond, you haven't actually answered my question.

It doesn't matter whether you or I think Arabs are frightfully decent chaps or not. You're beginning to sound like Norman Angell, he of the 1909 theory that economic integration had made another European war impossible.

In grossly simplified terms, from the standpoint of 2007, any future deal will involve the state of Israel exchanging land for peace. Yes? There's no mileage in pressuring them to give up land unless they (more precisely: enough of them) trust that they'll actually get peace. Yes? A deal was reached with Egypt, but perhaps you might concede that there are grounds why there might be issues involving trust on any other deals.

So: just suppose that the state of Israel and the USA did everything you want (scrapping guns/cluster bombs/etc) but rogue elements kept on attacking Israel. How would you react? How should the US and Israel?

Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

Er...I think I have done all I can to offer a different perspective on this one. I am afraid I don't accept your premise for the reasons already stated. Why don't you get out there if you are so interested in the place? Make up your own mind, but on the basis of some knowledge.

Go to Palestine and Jordan of course, but Damascus is always worth a look. I have only spent one day in Lebanon (kicked out by the Syrian army) so can't comment on it. You will get more political understanding from the open societies of the Gulf, i.e. UAE, Bahrain and to some extent Saudi, than you will in Damascus. Saudis can be much more communicative in London. All arabs consider themselves involved, but don't forget Tehran for the full picture.

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