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anon

I am fed up with the Islamic extremist on the one hand and the Zionist extremists on the other fighting out their battles (either physically 7/7 or intellectually - this book and Robert Halfon's comments) at the expense of the majority of the people of this country and its interests.
To be honest, I can only think of one solution, to move the lot of them onto the moon (including their sympathisers
- Goerge Galloway and Robert Halfon) and let them slug it out until they all realise the folly of their ways. At least that way the rest of us can live in peace!

tired and emotional

@Wellness

- pre 67 borders
- Right of Return
- Palestinian State

The only permanent solution to the whole problem.

You mean final solution of course. Israel retreating to pre-67 borders and allowing the right of return of the jordanian and syrian refugees now fetishized as 'Palestinians' would destroy Israel demographically within a generation or two while she is simply attacked again from the ceded ground (as has happened after every other pullback).

There is no intention to recognise Israel's right to exist even rhetorically - that is a foolish delusion. The thing Hamas fears above all is Fatah holding a referendum on whether 'palestine' should recognise Israel. If you observe Hamas rallies their supporters frequently lead the crowds in cries of 'No referendum'. Do you really think Hamas and hezbollah cling to their charters as some sort of negotiating tactic? Why do you find it so hard to believe that they actually hate with such ferocity that they wish Israel (and the west) wiped out for no other reason than we exist?

What will it take for you to recognise that none of this is hyperbole, none of this is going away, none of this is because of what we or the jews have done but because of the fact that we are.

SimonNewman

The flaw with Gove's analysis, with which Halfon concurs, is that it takes a far too optimistic view of human nature in general, and Arab politics in particular - hence "The book urges the West to follow through the war in Iraq until the Islamists are defeated and the war on terror won" bears no relation to reality. Not only is there no prospect of winning the war in Iraq, even if we were to do so (which might have been possible 3 years ago), it would have barely any impact on the Islamist threat to the West, far less "win the war on terror", an unattainable aim anyway - you can't win a war on terror, or on fear, or even on jihad.
Gove's failing is the neocon one, the Rousseauean myth that sees all people equally desirous of and capable of freedom and self rule. In reality, building liberal democracy in tribal kin-based societies is extremely difficult. No Arab state offers a plausible prospect of the global democratic transformation that the neocons so blithely assumed could be imposed by US military force.

However, Gove is entirely correct in regards to the existence of the Islamist threat, though not the solution to it. Jenner's response by contrast - "I’m not sure we do believe in the superiority of our way of life" - ie that we are no better than the Islamists - is utterly contemptible.

SimonNewman

tired and emotional:
"There is no intention to recognise Israel's right to exist even rhetorically - that is a foolish delusion."

I came to realise recently that the major difference between the two sides is that generally speaking Israelis want to live in peace in a state called Israel, whereas Palestinians, other Arabs, and most Muslims, want Israel to be destroyed and replaced by a Muslim state called Palestine. The first side wants peace & security, the second side wants to destroy the first side. You may favour one side or the other, but this difference is fundamental.

tired and emotional

/agree

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