« Live blog of Alistair Darling's Budget statement | Main | New Labour is D.E.A.D. »

Comments

Thank you, CH, for covering the budget response. The BBC Radio 4 programme I am listening to (having no access to a TV at work), decided not to bother their listeners with anything the opposition has to say.

Rising unemployment, rising taxes, collosal debt plus £10 billion of Labour cuts as icing on the cake of failure!


Dave thinks it,s Britains got talent and he,s the comedian. Trouble is he,s not got any talent !

If he thinks the state of the economy is a big joke , he doesn't deserve the support of the people of Britain.


Brilliant reply by Cameron. 'Government of the living dead' just about sums it up.

"Government of the living dead" is the best budget response one-liner for a long time.

The Government announces that it is going to take away half of some people's wealth in income tax and it isn't even clear we oppose it. At what point do we actually say something is wrong in principle? 55p? 60p? Forget all this stuff about "elephant traps". What are we in politics for? The trap the Left will have laid is whether we have abandoned standing for anything.

As Corban says - BBC thought their response was more important than the oppositions.

Brown will be pleased.

Good work Cameron.

Other than the obvious point of him being a chocolate teapot, why didn't Gids deliver the budget response?

There's only one thing to say:

BROWN'S BANKRUPT BRITAIN!

ToryBlog - the Leader of the Opposition ALWAYS does the budget response

Posted by: fight50p | April 22, 2009 at 13:39

The Government announces that it is going to take away half of some people's wealth in income tax and it isn't even clear we oppose it. At what point do we actually say something is wrong in principle? 55p? 60p? Forget all this stuff about "elephant traps". What are we in politics for? The trap the Left will have laid is whether we have abandoned standing for anything.

You completely misunderstand the nature of taxation. Go away and familiarise yourself with the basics of tax bands, then come back.


What is the point of fighting the 50p band, most independant commentators reckon that no-one will end up paying it anyway.

It's a trap!

ToryBlog - because it is traditional that the budget response is delivered by the Leader of the Opposition.

"ToryBlog - the Leader of the Opposition ALWAYS does the budget response"

Phew thanks Paul. Much safer that way, keeping Gids out of harm's way. A tradition I approve of! :-)

The Government promises 'training' for the under-25s, Can David Cameron and Theresa May please, please, ensure that any training undertaken is acutal training proper, leading to recognized skills, and not merely 'work-experience'?

The 50p band is clearly intended as a trap and as a sop to Labour's core vote. In my view, the sensible thing right now is to say nothing. Tomorrow the IFS is likely to say that it will raise nothing - they may even say that it will raise less than a 45p rate. Anyone earning that much will find it easy to avoid.

A commenter on Politicalbetting suggests we should say nothing about it for now then, after its been in place for a year, abolish it on the grounds that it isn't raising any extra revenue. Sounds like a smart idea to me.

Phil G You have stolen my slogan which I suggested 3 weeks ago!

Anyone got a link to a video of DC's reply ? Had a computer crash at just that moment.

To be fair, Mr Cameron knows very little about this and has zero policy ideas of his own.

Cameron's reply was good in that it finally reflected the fury many people feel at this worst of all governments. His comments are still light on what he would do instead though, and Labour will try to nail us on 50p. The corpse is still twitching.

I think 50% will be easier to oppose as taking half your money is obviously just wrong.
At 45% you can be accused of pandering to the rich if you reverse it, but you can stop the 50% by saying "don't be silly"

Peter, thats interesting I was talking to a senior Labour councillor (ex LA leader) today and he was in addition to being sick of Labour smears, of the view that if he was in opposition he would not be falling into any traps and making any economic promises. He felt Labour struggled to deal with that strategy and it wrong footed them when we did it.

Resident Leftie, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Fight50p is bang on target. We must remember what our principles are and STICK TO THEM! No more letting this government set the agenda!

Bob Crozier has come up with the PERFECT response to the 50p tax rate.

"We're not going to oppose the new 50p tax rate as no-one with a half-decent accountant will end up paying it anyway."

Well I think the Tories should appease the 1,000 posts from Tony Makara about a 'balanced manufacturing economy' and establish a national bakery to supply the world with British products.

The Tories could then counter that they are the 'do muffin' party.

50p is a bad idea and show's Labour contempt for high earners, but instead of saying it's a bad idea ideologically we should wait for independents to demonstrate it's a bad idea practically.

Michael M

Great minds etc...but a Google search shows that I first published the slogan on this site on 23 January 2009.

I have used it several times since then as well as 'Brown's Broken Britain!'

Perhaps you registered it subconsciously. If so, I am flattered, Sir


Posted by: Donna | April 22, 2009 at 13:54

Resident Leftie, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Fight50p is bang on target. We must remember what our principles are and STICK THEM! No more letting this government set the agenda!

How many innumerate people can we gather on one blog? Oh, sorry, you are obviously the wrong person to ask.

The government is not taking "half of people's wealth", they are taking half of their income on sums above £150,000. By all means whine, but get your facts right first.


resident leftie - do you want this to become some sort of weirdo accountants blog? You may be surprised to know that lots of us fill in tax returns and know what bands are. This is a blog thread, not the Oxford Union. Go off and correct your kids' homework.

Welcome to Scandinavian tax rates without Scandinavian public services.

The removal of personal allowances at £100,000 is a new front on taxation. Watch this threshold reduce in the next budget.

Deloitte says 700,000 will pay £220/mth more.

Could we say 50p is hugely anti-family? Two workers on 50 grand will be even more better off that one on 100. Bad enough as it is.

The 50p band is a trap, Labour want us to bang on about it, so they can portray us as the party of the rich.

Personally I don't agree with the principle of tax bands, one percentage rate for all would be fairer than what we have. But as far as issues of principle go we need to bang on about are the ones which affect the majority of our voters and they want to hear about, otherwise out of touch will be a charge well deserved.

Could we say 50p is hugely anti-family? Two workers on 50 grand will be even more better off that one on 100. Bad enough as it is.

No, I don't think that is the right way to approach it. Conservatives are for having both partners work - this should be the "but who will look after the children" party that nearly stopped Thatcher getting into parliamentary politics.

As A long time Tory says, there are more important issues. Let the Shadow Cabinet decide how to approach it and move on. It may be "wrong" to tax high earners more, but it is way down the priority list.

"this should be the...." ---> "this should NOT be the...."

Resident Lefty, oh, sorry, i misunderstood. I hadn't realised you were also against the 50p tax rise, but just quibbling about maths.

Let us not forget that the 50% tax rate will be a boost for accountants and tax lawyers.

"The government is not taking "half of people's wealth", they are taking half of their income on sums above £150,000."

Doesn't make it anymore acceptable, it's still a horrendously large chuck.

It only takes about 20.000 people who earn about 500k to nullify and actually reverse the effect on revenues of the 50p tax bracket. How much is anyone willing to bet that less than that number of people will leave these shores because of it ?

It only takes about 20.000 people who earn about 500k to leave the UK in order to nullify and actually reverse the effect on revenues of the 50p tax bracket. How much is anyone willing to bet that less than that number of people will leave these shores because of it ?

What a crushing indictment of this bunch of inept labour politicians

Will someone earning £200,000 just roll over and allow Darling to confiscate another £2500pa?

Or do you think they might get on the phone to the accountant? Do you think we'll get loads of people earning £149,999?

This won't raise and money because no-one will pay it. We don't need to get into a mess about how to respond.

"The one question which David Cameron now has to answer, however, is whether the Conservatives will go along with the proposed 50p top rate of tax the Government has now proposed."
I think that this is the question that Brown wants us to answer, not the one we should be answering. Clearly - as others have noted above - it is a trap and one moreover with no real impact on the economy as a whole. We need to concentrate on the big picture here.

Yes to 50% tax band is a trap.

Personally, I doubt that hardly anyone is worth as much as £150K pa except perhaps the owner/founder of a business and such a person will build up his/her wealth as the value of his business increases.

The real problem is that the really rich don’t pay much tax anyway and the 50% band will just provide extra incentives for them to find ways round paying income tax.

If I ware a “one nation Tory” (which I am close too if the nation is defined those legally settled in the UK and excludes our membership of the political EU), I would point out that the 50% band will not really make any difference to most of the “rich” and, instead, I would suggest ways of plugging the loopholes (Non-Doms, share option schemes etc.) and also increase/implement a property/land tax for very valuable properties. Of course neither the Tories nor Labour will really go after the very rich because both parties rely heavily on donations from such people.

Yes to 50% tax band is a trap.

Personally, I doubt that hardly anyone is worth as much as £150K pa except perhaps the owner/founder of a business and such a person will build up his/her wealth as the value of his business increases.

The real problem is that the really rich don’t pay much tax anyway and the 50% band will just provide extra incentives for them to find ways round paying income tax.

If I ware a “one nation Tory” (which I am close too if the nation is defined those legally settled in the UK and excludes our membership of the political EU), I would point out that the 50% will not really make any difference to most of the “rich” and, instead, I would suggest ways of plugging the loopholes (Non-Doms, share option schemes etc.) and also increase/implement a property/land tax for very valuable properties. Of course neither the Tories nor Labour will really go after the very rich because both parties rely heavily on donations from such people.

The poor could be helped by raising the personal allowance to at least £10K and making it transferable between man and wife. Of course this will not happen because of the prejudices of the tiny but all powerful PC feminist anti-marriage ruling elite.

Surely we just say that we'll reduce taxes for everyone as soon as we can, and that means everyone. But only when we're not going to drive Britain any further into the red by doing it.

It's on afternoons like this when you realise how we got into this mess in the first place. If we won't even fight when the Chancellor announces a 50p tax rate, how can we complain that the economy has imploded? If we don't fight we get what we deserve.

"Deloitte says 700,000 will pay £220/mth more." Well, disregarding for the moment the wisdom or folly of a 50% tax band, that's a useful £1.85 billion for the taxman. But a really useful saving would instead be achieved by the repeal of the ridiculous Blair/Brown giveaway of the rebate that Maggie T got for us in our pointless annual dues (blood money or Danegeld, more like) to the ever-greedy, extravagant, & corrupt EU.

Frankly , we should never pay in more than we received back from the EU per year, perhaps plus a very small 1/27 (an equal amount for all the EU members) for the EU's administration costs. That's assuming that the EU's auditors give it a clean bill of financial health - which hasn't happened now for 14 years! Ie no UK expenses contributions to the EU until the EU gets its accounts right. As this will probably never happen, that's another saving of UK public money to help reduce our huge public sector deficit that Labour incompetence has now given us!

Opposing the 50% rate for income over £150k should only be done in a reasoned and numerate way.

One objection is that it is pure window-dressing and dog-whistle politics of the weakest kind because it sounds good for those railing against fat cats but in fact will raise very little money and none at all from those who are able to take earnings in ways which don't qualify for income tax.

Another would be to demonstrate, not merely assert, that it would lead to a "brain drain" of the brightest entrepreneurial and technical people, precisely the type of people we need to get the economy moving in the right direction. That means identifying an actually-existing class of such people who are not going to be able to plan their way round the tax increase. It strikes me as highly unlikely that that class would include many business owners or entrepreneurs (who would at that level of success be unlikely to be paying themselves a large salary) and almost certainly would include no scientists or engineers.

The largest parts of the class hit are most likely to be:
(1) senior lawyers, accountants and other commercial professionals
(2) doctors at consultant level with substantial private practices
(3) a few hundred civil servants/senior local authority executives/NHS senior managers/quango execs
(4) maybe a couple of thousand mid-ranking investment bankers, stockbrokers and their ilk (although far fewer now than a few years back).

Category (1) may suffer some drain, mostly in management consultancy as it is not tied to national professional standards. There's not really anywhere for lawyers and accountants to go en masse as the competing jurisdictions are hardly recruiting massively and even the most profitable firms in the City are making significant redundancies so keeping one's £300k as a partner in London will be more important to most than looking to relocate to avoid paying an extra £15k in tax.

(2) those private practices are likely to suffer anyway and if money was a big motivator those consultants could and would have shipped off the the US years ago - it is possible that the increase might make us less attractive for foreign doctors and thereby reduce the existing brain drain of doctors leaving the UK because of the difficulties of getting a job.

(3) GOOD!

(4) The broader global economic picture and regulatory responses to it is much more likely to make a difference to the financial services sector than how much tax employees will pay.

Perhaps I'm missing some other more obviously deserving categories but I think that attacking the 50% rate on principle is politically suicidal when ordinary people, you know, the vast majority of the electorate, will be suffering and paying for this government's abject failures for a generation and won't come near to earning £150k a year or indeed know anyone who does.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking to reduce the rate, or to scrap it after a year on the basis of it not raising any money, just that we really ought not to be seen to be going into bat for a tiny minority. Particularly as a fair number of that minority won't be clamouring for tax cuts or readying themselves for emigration in 2010 (unless of course we've somehow contrived to get Brown re-elected).

If we don't fight we get what we deserve.

That's the fastest way to lose an election. You pick the battles you know you can win and avoid difficult ones if possible.

50p is a trap. The best cause of action is to say all tax increases will have to be reviewed after the election to see if they had lead to an increase of revenue or indeed a drop from pushing people overseas. There's no point in decrying it by assuming the latter will happen as Labour won't go until next year.

In what has been a dreadful budget, one of the worst aspects has been the decision to "soak the rich" with a 50p rate.

Brown and Darling are well aware that it will bring in hardly any extra income- it has only been introduced for political purposes, to try and embarass the Tories who "want to look after their rich friends", but the signal it gives to prospective investors here is awful.

This government is, frankly, beyond contempt.

Come on Dave and George. Stop behaving like you are in a Dutch auction with Labour to see who can spend the most and start acting like Conservatives, by opposing this move (along with most of the others).

Well intelligent assessment of this 50p rate suggests it won't raise anything so its spin and in effect smear again. I agree with those that say we just point out that respected bodies are saying it won't raise anything, may firgthen businesses away and may even raise less. This means that the debt situation is even worse especially as those same bodies don't regrad the growth forecasts as correct (yet again). The Govt has therefore run away from the issues and is harking back to the 70s. As to the 50p rate if it proves to be the case that it doesn't raise anything when it is instituted then we would quickly review it. End of.

Before anyone forgets, remember OTHER TAXES have gone up too. You can't accept 2p on fuel et al but just oppose the tax rises on the rich. That's why it's a bad idea to focus on 50p.

OK then, if pragmatic silence on our part is to be the order of the day, let us hope for our first budget to include something along the following lines: "The proposal made by the last Labour Chancellor to increase the higher rate tax bands to 45p and in turn to 50p, if left in place, would lead to increased avoidance and greater emigration to lower tax domiciles, and a substantial drop in tax revenue rather than an increase. I am therefore restoring the 40p higher rate band with immediate effect." Any takers?

50p is a bit of a joke really. 1980s Labour opposition stuff. It doesn't improve the fiscal position and doesn't help the economy.
We should laugh it off

Since Brown has demonstrated over and over again that he is a one-trick-pony and it is votes (not even voters in fact - gesmond007 and residentleftie!) and power and the GE, I am afraid that to a certain extent the Opposition HAVE to play him at his own game!

Certainly Mr.Brown is a master at his game, after all he has been playing it non-stop for over 12years, with no interference! But I don't believe that David Cameron is as superficial - or whatever it is that his critics can't see beyond; he is just younger and not so selfish. However, he must be very watchful, NOT to be drawn into Brown's spiders web, and like those Greek heroes, he will have to get used to the fact that when he has, combatted one 'trap', like the 50p, Mr. Brown will have spent more of our money thinking up another trap, solely for DC and GO to hopefully (on his part to fall into). Its all sh*t and disgraceful, but a fact of this governments life!

Having had a quick look through the sums, the spend is the equivalent of 77% off earning peoples average incomes. That is the appalling truth. All the stealth taxes, hidden taxes and the raids on pensions, businesses to fund second homes and expense accounts for the poncing parasites in NUlab have led to this.

Can I just make the point, that it is not 50%, but 51.5% including the NI hike. This is more than half someone's income above £150,000! And is in addition to stealing our personal allowances.

It won't be avoidable for employees (other than through an increase in charitable donations). It will raise negigible money though because the super-rich will avoid it (through turning income into capital for instance which is now taxed at 18%). It is a political trap, a tax on aspiring middle England and a disincentive to entreprenuers. Best for DC to say nothing on this for now, other than to repeat the reneging on a manifesto commitment. Labour are indeed taking us back to the 1970s.

I agree with those who say that we should not get drawn in to a big row over the 50p tax rise, it's clearly a trap. As it only applies to a group who are well able to look after themselves. Far better to focus on the other measures which mean a massive rise in our indebtedness. This is an extremely dishonest budget based on faulty and optimistic numbers seemingly pulled out of thin air.

Well said Raj - there really are more important things than the 50p tax hike and cameron is well advised not to fall into that trap. Just say it will not be a priority to reduce it but an aspiration as with all other income tax for everybody else. Hikes in petrol duty, fags and a pint of beer affect far more people and what about the NI increase as well.We really cannot go into an election (and expect to win it) if one the one hand we say that the PSBR is catastrophic but hey, the first thing we'e going to do is to ensure the rich pay less.

Is the full text (a video of the speech would be better) available anywhere online yet?

Brown and Darling are either exremely stupid or are saying "apres nous, le deluge". They hope that they can buy the election with this untellectually dishonest, financially preposterous and irresponsible budget.

BRITAIN is BROKE.

It will be tough, but we can rebuild after the election and after the years that it will take, Brown will be remembered with contempt.

The3se comments are all very well but Cameron and Osborne would let the economy run its course and history has shown this is the wrong thing to do and you can't argue with that.

Based on this budget, our manifesto for the next general election needs to say the following:

1) We are a low tax party and will look to cut taxes wherever possible. However, due to the financial mess left to us by Labour, we may not be able to do so immediately.

2) We will aggressively look to cut Government spending from the moment we enter government. When we find savings our priority will be to reduce debt to a manageable level, then we can make tax cuts.

3) When we make tax cuts we will cut them in the following order of priority (e.g. inheritance tax, followed by raising personal allowances, followed by 50p tax rate). It would also be a good idea to give estimates of what level of budget savings could fund each tax cut.

This way we are able to level with the voters and promise to reduce debt and cut taxes in a realistic and manageable way.

£££££SSSS!!!???

pointless commentary

Yes I can argue with that Joshuwa+++! You ignored me yesterday, but quite frankly I couldn't give a toss!!!

YOU have NO idea what 'Cameron and Osborne' would do after a General Election! You are just assuming. And as for talking about 'history', you are not old enough to know much about previous recessions, or more precisely DEPRESSIONS, which we are now in.!

Go back to your friends at Labour HQ and show a bit of sympathy to the millions now out of work, due to this PM's antics. NO this slump cannot be blamed on pre-1997 - the favorite mantra previous to this.

Despite the meaningless phrases of Mr. Darling, you know it is not possible to find 2,000,000 ++ jobs in a depression, for all those who WANT to work. Yes, your friends client state on benefits are alright, thank you very much, but then they appear to be happy not to work!

Dear Patsy,

I am 35 years old. My family suffered in the last recession. They suffered under the last Tory administration, their community suffered in the last administration so don't tell me about what I do and don't know.

I am sorry for not replying to you yesterday, however I went out to an awards ceremony and didn't return until late.

And I will go back to my friends and we will talk about how we are going to help these unemployed people. You see unlike the Conservatives, we are doing something to help. Sitting by and watching the recession take its course is not the right answer. Now we can sit here until the cows come home and debate whose fault this is. I just find it a bit too much of a coincidence that most of the world is in recession at the same time. Perhaps we can blame GB for that too?

And as for this...

'Yes, your friends client state on benefits are alright, thank you very much, but then they appear to be happy not to work!'

It just goes to show how officious you are.

Further to my last. I would take Osborne seriously if he publish an alternative budget, but he wont because he doesn't have a clue.

And does Darling Jos? If you think so you are very much in a minority.

"Further to my last. I would take Osborne seriously if he publish an alternative budget, but he wont because he doesn't have a clue."

Why would he waste his time and effort on such an unreal exercise? Grief we already have a real chancellor that is living in a fantasy world. G.O. should concentrate on pulling Darlings budget to bits. So far he is doing OK at that.

" You see unlike the Conservatives, we are doing something to help. Sitting by and watching the recession take its course is not the right answer. Now we can sit here until the cows come home and debate whose fault this is. I just find it a bit too much of a coincidence that most of the world is in recession at the same time. Perhaps we can blame GB for that too?"

Sitting by and not having the power to reverse the awful mistakes that Darling is making is the curse of being in opposition.
When we Conservatives win the next election you can bet your boots we will be doing plenty. Cutting Labours over bloated public sector will be high on the to do list. killing off many of Labours quango and initiatives will yield more savings. Properly reforming Welfare and expecting public servants to be more productive will also feature. Only a dishonest politician would describe the Conservatives as the do nothing party. Swindon runs very well because of a conservative council that is very active.Boris is hardly sitting in his office twiddling his thumbs. "Do nothing" is a stupid jibe invented by a discredited labour attack team that will say anything in an attempt to distract the public. Brown is just a despicable conman selling nu-labour snake oil to a disillusioned Nation.

"Dave thinks it,s Britains got talent and he,s the comedian. Trouble is he,s not got any talent !

If he thinks the state of the economy is a big joke , he doesn't deserve the support of the people of Britain." - Gezmond007.

Now watch as Gezmond gets back in his coffin until next Wednesday!


'And I will go back to my friends and we will talk about how we are going to help these unemployed people. You see unlike the Conservatives, we are doing something to help.'

Yes! Socialists LOVE talking, and of course it does help a lot!

Posted by: pedant | April 22, 2009 at 14:02

resident leftie - do you want this to become some sort of weirdo accountants blog? You may be surprised to know that lots of us fill in tax returns and know what bands are. This is a blog thread, not the Oxford Union. Go off and correct your kids' homework.

If you know that, why are you arguing with me instead of the pea brains who think people on £150,001 will be paying £75,000 tax? Whether you understand tax bands or not, you obiously aren't the shiniest fork in the canteen.

What it means is that people earning more than £150,000 pay 50% tax on their earning above that figure. So the difference if you were on £200,000 would be £5000 extra tax.

It's not going to hurt.

I can't believe that people here, almost all of whom earn less than this figure are standing watch over the poor defenseless income rich instead of arguing for the poor.

Resident leftie, am I mistaken, I thought that 'the poor' got benefits?

Just out of interest you wouldn't like to divulge what you would like to see as the compulsory wage for everyone, if the sort of socialist world that you and Joshuwa++ seem to want, comes about? After all if you are going to have Total Equality, then you have to have total equslity!

At any rate, the separation ratio is accurate.

The comments to this entry are closed.

#####here####

Categories

ConHome on Twitter

    follow me on Twitter

    Conservative blogs

    Today's public spending saving

    New on other blogs

    • Receive our daily email
      Enter your details below:
      Name:
      Email:
      Subscribe    
      Unsubscribe 

    • Tracker 2
    • Extreme Tracker