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We had missed UKIP's makeover until 'Libertarian' pointed it out...
August 24, 2008 at 06:53 in UKIP | Permalink
Wouldn't a picture of the red squirrels of Brownsea Island be more appropriate? After all, as I said previously they will probably be the most sensible speakers at the UKIP Conference!
Sally Roberts |
August 24, 2008 at 08:05
UKIP's failure to breakthrough in the last two years has been total. Despite the disaster of Lisbon, despite the EU commission and parliament demonstrating its incompetence and corruption on a regular basis.
It's such a shame, there are many good people in UKIP including their leader but they must know that they are wasting their time in a party with pretty much zero influence.
I expect that this post will attract howls of outrage from commited UKIPers but unfortunately it's unarguable.
Malcolm Dunn |
August 24, 2008 at 08:58
Yes Malcom, it is odd that "the disaster of Lisbon, despite the EU commission and parliament demonstrating its incompetence and corruption on a regular basis" and I add in particular the dreadful Common Fisheries Policy, is still accepted by the Tory party. Now please explain how a right to vote for a candidate of my choice is a waste of time? The right to vote is democracy...whoops, something the EU still doesn't understand. Despite my 55 years support of the Tories and taking account of liar Heath, my "referendum" vote in June 2009 is quite definitely going to UKIP.
August 24, 2008 at 09:09
Much of UKIPs failure to register with voters is that they claim to be a pro-British party but don't offer a pro-British economic policy, in fact UKIP policies would make our markets more exposed to imported inflation than ever. What UKIP should be arguing for is a revival of the British internal market leading to British workers producing British good for British consumers. Instead all we get is the commitment to unfettered free-trade, which as we know puts British workers out of work as coolie economies around the world pay sweatshop wages. I admire UKIP's stance on exposing the political dangers of EU membership, but their economic policy has no vision and would just lead to more even Britons on benefit.
Tony Makara |
August 24, 2008 at 09:15
Why is the £ sign still there? Get out the moth balls.
When we were campaigning in Crewe & Nantwich, UKIP parked a car outside the Nantwich Conservative Association office with tanoy's bolted to the roof and they ranted all day long. Every now and then one would approach me and I was sure you have to have Rabies to join them, he was foaming at the mouth and wanted to bite me.
Oberon Houston |
August 24, 2008 at 09:42
Take heed,in the MEP Elections UKIP will still be a thorn in the side of many,some of whom frequent these pages daily.
Unbelievable as it may seem,UKIP does have a plan for both 2009 and 2010,do we have one?
Writing UKIP off again so close to the EU Election is a big mistake, and, talk of them folding is dangerous,especially for Conservatives who are hoping for a seat.
August 24, 2008 at 09:47
To paraphrase a recent headline on the site. quoting William Hague`s hero William Wilberforce - " If to be feelingly alive to the sufferings of my fellow creatures from the misdeeds of the European Union is to be a a fruitcake and closet racist; as a British citizen proud of his country determined to do his utmost to stop its te integration into a country called Europe, I am proud to be called one".
Yes, I have Conservative friends who urge me to vote Conservative "to get Labour out", but they cannot see that unless things change, and soon, it will make no difference whether Cameron, Brown, or Clegg is in charge.
Wake up Britain, before it is too late.
Edward Huxley |
August 24, 2008 at 09:59
freedom to choose what exactly? And what do the butterflies symbolize? Sorry, but Ukip is not the headbangers party of choice any more. BNP has stolen a march on them and their namby-pamby butterflies.
old hack |
August 24, 2008 at 09:59
"Why is the £ sign still there? Get out the moth balls"
The Federastas will be pushing for us to join the Euro just as they are pushing for an EU Olympic team.Post Lisbon ,with a small Tory majority ,Gideon may take us in.
Tory divisions over the EU are always simmering under the surface enhanced by the rigging of MEP selection and the weakness of Cameron over the EPP and the referendum issues.
UKIP Marginal General |
August 24, 2008 at 10:14
freedom to choose what exactly?
To note vote blindly & tribally.
michael mcgoughhttp://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/party_democracy_and_membership/index.html |
August 24, 2008 at 10:17
"You have to have rabies to join them, one was foaming at the mouth" and "their namby pamby butterflies. I see reasoned argument is being replace by hysteria as usual on this site. Meanwhile, "UKIP will leave the political EU and trade globally and freely. We will re-embrace today’s fast-growing Commonwealth and we will encourage UK manufacturing so that we make things again" Quite like Wilberforce would have wanted?
August 24, 2008 at 10:22
Having popped over to their website by the link kindly provided, I have to say that I still like and respect Nigel Farage. Some of his supporters may have a few swivel-eyed headbanging tendencies, but then, by God, so do some of ours.
At the last General Election, I happened to spend too much time driving around the West Country for agricultural reasons. At the time, Conservative Central Office had decreed that UKIP were a busted flush and scarcely worth attention. But everywhere I went, I saw UKIP posters in fields, woods and houses whose gardens backed onto the road. They outnumbered Conservative posters by about 2:1. In our constituency, the number of UKIP votes exceeded the Labour majority. In other words, we would have most likely returned a Conservative MP were it not for UKIP.
I think the dismissal of UKIP by CCHQ and others is a foolishness that will be underlined in the EU elections.
On the other hand, a clear eurosceptic policy, outlined now; the promise of a national debate followed by a referendum about our continued relationship with the EU, would comprehensively bring back 90% of those errant Tory votes. All it needs is for David Cameron to be seen to come off the fence.
Little by little, the general public are becoming more and more eurosceptic as they come to realise just how all pervasive and intrusive the EU is, despite the efforts of the BBC - due in no small measure to the efforts of UKIP. In two years time, the EU will become a MUCH bigger electoral issue, especially when we all see how the EU gets round the Irish "No" vote. Once the electorate start to learn just how little of our country's overweaning bureaucracy is actually dictated by Westminster and how much by Brussels, then the scales will fall from our eyes.
David Eyles |
August 24, 2008 at 10:33
"a party with pretty much zero influence."
That isn't what several Tory candidates were saying after the last general election. "We were robbed by UKIP!" came the cry from those candidates who lost seats where the winner had a majority smaller than the UKIP vote (Eastleigh, Romsey, Guildford et al). UKIP may not be influential in terms of input into any mainstream party's policies but they are influential when it comes to spoiling tactics.
Paul, Southampton |
August 24, 2008 at 10:52
"Every now and then one would approach me and I was sure you have to have Rabies to join them, he was foaming at the mouth and wanted
to bite me."
If this is acceptable about UKIPPERS then is the following about another minority?
Every now and then one would approach me and I was sure you have to have AIDS to join them,he was foaming at the mouth and wanted to kiss me.
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 10:58
The problem is, the average person, who doesn't follow politics, but is well-intentioned and wants to keep the Pound, might believe they are a force and still vote for them.
Tony Makara |
August 24, 2008 at 11:00
It is revealing that UKIP’s detractors (such as Sally Roberts, Richard Corbett MEP and even David Cameron himself) seem only to be able to attack on the basis of childish insults rather than policy or intellectual debate.
In spite of the virtual blackout on UKIP in the national media (with the single exception of the BBC which, to its credit, does sometimes give UKIP coverage), UKIP increased its vote in the 2004 EU Parliament elections, winning 16.1% (2,650,768) of the votes cast, beating the LibDems into fourth place.
From a much lower base in the 2005 General Election, UKIP achieved more votes than any other party outside the Lib/Lab/Con, winning 605,973 votes in 2005; this compares with 412,267 for the SNP, 257,695 votes for the Greens and 192,764 votes for the BNP.
UKIP voters are distributed widely across the whole country which makes it difficult to win elections in the first past the post system until a critical mass of supporters can be achieved. Until recently, the typical UKIP voter was ex Tory and in late middle age but this has begun to change now, with a surge in working class support and the success of the bright and committed members of Young Independence. Their increasingly important place in the party will be seen in the faces of many of the new UKIP MEP and MP candidates.
The media will not be able to neglect UKIP in the run up to the 2009 EU Parliament Elections and the resulting publicity will certainly provide a boost to UKIP’s credibility and membership. There is a good chance that UKIP will come second and, with the support of the many Tories who support UKIP’s fundamental objectives, may even challenge the Tories for first place. Of course, the subsequent (?) General Election will be more difficult for UKIP but, with the Labour Party in freefall, Calamity Clegg running the LibDems and near universal distrust of the EU, anything is possible.
In the meanwhile, any publicity is good publicity.
August 24, 2008 at 11:20
Sally Roberts wrote "Wouldn't a picture of the red squirrels of Brownsea Island be more appropriate? After all, as I said previously they will probably be the most sensible speakers at the UKIP Conference!"
If Sally had bothered to read the post to which the Editor had linked she would have seen that the UKIP conference will have speakers from the Adam Smith Institute, NO2ID, the Taxpayers Alliance and other pro-freedom organisations who are persona non grata in Blue Labour's Millbank HQ.
Another speaker will be Professor Tim Congdon of Lombard Street Research, one of the City's leading economists and UKIP's economics advisers. He shows up Osborne to be what he is - a spoilt rich kid who has not had a job in the real world.
Oberon Houston wrote "Why is the £ sign still there? Get out the moth balls."
Because the Lisbon Treaty requires ALL members to join the Euro Zone. The pound virtually at parity with the Euro. The EU Commission plans to take this opportunity to increase the pressure on the UK to abolish the pound and join the Euro.
"Freedom to Choose what?"
To choose how we travel, spend our money, education for our children, health services for our families without being burdened by high (especially eco-fascist) taxes, global warming hysteria, politically correct regulations.
The Conservatives, under Thatcher and Major, extended freedom of choice. Cameron's Europhile Blue Labour wants to nanny, nudge, green tax and regulate. They are as bad as Heath. Vote for Independence - Go Free!
August 24, 2008 at 11:26
A bit more abour Mr.Cameron`s insult. When he made it he was backed up by his sister-in-law Alice Sheffield who has or had a job in his office. She used, as "proof" a statement from Operation Black Vote!!
Edward Huxley |
August 24, 2008 at 11:35
Unfortunately,'Libertarian' has some sound points, although the EU Treaties are a bit vague on the UK position on EMU.
Yes - the single currency for all is an ultimate goal of whatever EU exists (and patriotic Tories ought to wake up to the fact that the political goals are actually binding).
There's also the contradiction (in Lisbon) that the UK is explicitly not forced to adopt the Euro as its currency!
But David Cameron will find other EU legal rulings prevent the return of ceded powers on employment and social legislation.
To his credit, he's said that sovereignty is important, however, the best way out of the dilemma is to make UKIP redundant by replacing EU membership with a relationship based on free-trading and free co-operation.
Neil Kinnock actually got it right when he said that there were only two long term options - the superstate or independence.
Many Conservatives would be quite happy with the latter - Lord Lamont once said that he could think of no clear advantages from being in the EU that could not be obtained by other means.
Julian Melford |
August 24, 2008 at 11:43
There is a school of thought that, in his despair, Gordon Brown will go for a General Election at the same time as the EU Parliamentary Elections in June next year. His thinking might be that the inevitable publicity for UKIP will damage the Tories and thus reduce the Conservative Party gains. The flaw in this strategy could be the assumption that UKIP voters are natural Conservatives.
Any thoughts anyone?
August 24, 2008 at 11:50
"UKIP may not be influential in terms of input into any mainstream party's policies"
Paul;UKIP were the first to dismiss IHT and oor banging on about immigration has brought this subject into debate even if Dominic Grieve thinks the Government can do something about immigration from within the EU.
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 11:52
You may deride UKIP but we have a bigger influence and effect than we are given credit for, even on Tory and Labour policy.
Watch out for the launch of our new short film at the party conference in Bournemouth.
August 24, 2008 at 11:56
2006, remember this on EU Referendum? How true then, and now!
"Above all, Cameron’s statements and most comments on the Conservative Home blog show that the party is still in denial. They are refusing to examine in any detail what UKIP stands for and why it is attracting voters while the Tories continue to be incapable of doing so.
The Boy-King may well know somewhere deep down beneath that fatuous mask of the caring modern conservative that too close an examination of what makes up UKIP and its voters will entail a genuine analysis of what his own party should be based on.
In so far as conservatism means anything, apart from winning elections, it has something to do with small government, individual rights and responsibilities, national independence and constitutional democracy. The Boy-King has conspicuously failed to address any of these issues.
Occasionally he has touched on them briefly, only to explain with a kindly smile that the caring modern conservative did not believe in any of this. But very many conservatives in the country do and they are not in the mood to go on giving him the benefit of the doubt.
These are not the people who ever voted Lib-Dim, the Boy-King’s favourite target. In fact, very few of those will ever vote Tory. These are the people who stayed at home in the last three elections or voted UKIP, Veritas, occasionally even BNP. They did so, not because they are fruitcakes or racists but because they do not think that any of the big parties represents their views or has policies that are, in their opinion, best for the country. David Cameron, the Boy-King of the Conservative Party, insults them at his peril."
It seems he STILL does!
August 24, 2008 at 12:50
Disraeli said that the Conservative Party is the party of the nation or it is nothing.
Is the Conservative Party still the party of the nation?
August 24, 2008 at 12:59
"It's such a shame, there are many good people in UKIP including their leader"
Farage? The clown in the tank? I remember him on QT once. Kept linking the EU to every question he answered, didn't do much to dispel the idea that they're a single-issue party.
August 24, 2008 at 13:38
If UKIP achieve anything it will be splitting the Tory vote and keeping Labour in power. Discuss.
August 24, 2008 at 13:43
RichardJ;You have your own clown---but in a Gherkin.
Are not most issues linked to the EU one way or another?
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 13:48
"Farage.... Kept linking the EU to every question he answered"
This is simply not true. NF never does this though he does make the point that much of what is wrong with Britain cannot be put right whilst we remain in the EU.
As for UKIP being a single issue party, this is not true either.
Whereas s the Conservative Party does not seem to have any policies at all, just now, and the Labour Party have lost theirs somewhere.
August 24, 2008 at 13:50
"If UKIP achieve anything it will be splitting the Tory vote and keeping Labour in power. Discuss."
Not if Cameron allows MPs and Candidates to sign up to Better Off Out. I am sure that a deal can be struck with Nigel Farage, especially if Dave promises a referendum on EU membership (not just Lisbon) to settle the issue once and for all.
There is no mention of the EU, the European elections or the Tory MEP candidates on the official party conference agenda. Why not? Surely. if Cameron was serious about a referendum on Lisbon and/or the repatriation of powers, there would be a session on Europe and the candidates would be presented to conference.
The fact is that David Cameron is fanatically pro-EU and is in favour of EU integration. Wake up and smell the Europhile coffee served up in Millbank.
August 24, 2008 at 14:02
In about thirty seats in the 2005 General Election the difference between a Conservative and a pro-EU party winning was about half the UKIP vote. If that's not daft what is? To me it is like not replacing the locks on your grandmother's door because you do not like the colour of the paint in her kitchen.
As for any squirrels attending the UKIP conference. Will they do like some of the top party elite and employ foreign workers to look after their homes and businesses in their absence?
Sam R |
August 24, 2008 at 14:27
"Wake up and smell the Europhile coffee served up in Millbank."
Better still come to the Freedom Zone for coffee----and a canalside ciggy for those that partake.
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 14:31
David at Home: Disraeli actually said the Conservative Party is a national party or it is nothing - meaning of course the party of one nation, after all he was the progenitor of the term.
UKIP on the other hand are explicitly in favour of the two nations, the libertarian rhetoric of freedom being nothing more than a smokescreen for a policy of large tax breaks for the upper middle class that make up the bulk of UKIP's membership and support, and the poor can go hang. That is not a Disraelian policy at all.
August 24, 2008 at 14:31
In about thirty seats in the 2005 General Election the difference between a Conservative and a pro-EU party winning was about half the UKIP vote.
WRONG.The Conservative party is a pro-EU party.
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 14:34
Mr. Cameron is definitely pro EU. My MP Philip Hammond is a nice chap and an excellent constituency MP. A few years ago he came up to me on the UKIP stall during the annual Magna Carta Day celebration in Egham and said "my heart is with you" and later, on a visit to our house "I`m a eurosceptic like you, I agree with you 90%".
But when I wrote asking him to sign up to Better Off Out he declined, saying although the EU need reforming, we should stay in.
What caused this remarkable change? He had been promoted to the front bench so could hardly go against his leader.
Can you wonder why I think the Tories cannot be trusted on Europe?
Edward Huxley |
August 24, 2008 at 14:38
"..the difference between a Conservative and a pro-EU party winning was about half the UKIP vote. "
Except briefly during the latter years of Mrs T, the Conservative Party, or at least its leadership, has been pro-EU since at least 1970.
"Will they do like some of the top party elite and employ foreign workers to look after their homes and businesses in their absence?"
And UKIP is accused of being a party of "closet racists"!
I have voted for UKP since Maastricht and yet my wife of more than 30 years comes from a far off Oriental land and remains a foreign national. Is that OK with you Sam? Or would you like her deported?
Nigel Farage's wife is a German Lady.
To oppose the EU superstate is not to be against Europeans or foreigners.
August 24, 2008 at 14:41
Ed, I know its the silly season and all, but for future reference perhaps the best thing for the next UKIP makeover is simply to ignore it? It is, after all, utterly meaningless.
Old Hack |
August 24, 2008 at 14:46
Why is Conservative Home advertising UKIP?
UKIP should set up their own website to advertise themselves.
Jill, London |
August 24, 2008 at 14:47
"...the libertarian rhetoric of freedom being nothing more than a smokescreen for a policy of large tax breaks for the upper middle class that make up the bulk of UKIP's membership and support."
If you had ever attended a UKIP meeting or conference you would know that this is untue.
August 24, 2008 at 14:48
"This is simply not true. NF never does this though"
Yes he does, I saw it with my own eyes on the television. It was extremely irritating. He had the chance to make some good points but kept wasting his breath on his personal hobby horse.
"Are not most issues linked to the EU one way or another?"
Not to the extent that every comment on them requires an EU reference. It just puts people off and contributes to the idea that UKIP are a bunch of "swivel eyed loons".
Incidently I used to be a fan of UKIP (even though I didn't vote for them) and have defended them from attacks on this website in the past. However, I have increasingly come to the view that the party is essentially a joke, an impression not helped by Farage's tank stunt or their claim to be "libertarian" - where are their policies to abolish the welfare state? Furthermore they only undermine the anti-EU cause by assisting Labour and the Lib Dems. The Tories are at their most united and Eurosceptic for years yet UKIP are intent on sabotaging the best chance we may have had to restore our sovereignty.
August 24, 2008 at 14:56
"UKIP should set up their own website to advertise themselves.
Posted by: Jill, London | August 24, 2008 at 14:47"
UKIP's new website is at http://www.ukip.org. You will find more Conservative policies there than at Conservatives.com or WebCameron.
Unfortunately, Chad Noble closed UKIP Home. Now that the new look and slogan has been launched, I hope that someone will launch a replacement for UKIP Home.
In the meantime, I recommend The Freedom Association's new website at http://www.tfa.net.
August 24, 2008 at 14:58
"The Tories are at their most united and Eurosceptic for years".
So why is there nothing on Europe at the Tory Party Conference. Why is there no fringe meeting or event sponsored by the Movement For European Reform? The Cameroons will not talk about the 800lb EU monster in the room.
The main Eurosceptic fringe meetings will be hosted by The Freedom Association (in the Freedom Zone) and the Bruges Group on the Monday. I would advise most Tories to miss the PC nonsense in the ICC and spend conference in Austin Court instead.
August 24, 2008 at 15:04
"As for UKIP being a single issue party, this is not true either."
I never said it was. I said that's the impression many people have. Ask people what they link UKIP with and 99% will say "leaving the EU".
"I have voted for UKP since Maastricht and yet my wife of more than 30 years comes from a far off Oriental land and remains a foreign national."
Good for you, that doesn't change the fact that many of your fellow members are not as racially tolerant. Incidently I don't say this as a criticism, it's a generational thing. People who come from a different generation can't suddenly be expected to change life-long opinions just because younger generations think they should. One only has to look at older Labour voters switching to the BNP. I suspect though that perhaps Ukippers are more vocal than most people from their generation in their opinion of immigrants, nor I suspect do they have a particularly large "anti-racist" contingent in the party. It therefore makes it easier for UKIP's opponents to attack it as the "BNP in blazers".
"There is no mention of the EU, the European elections or the Tory MEP candidates on the official party conference agenda. Why not?"
To prevent the media stirring up stories of Tory splits. Every time the Eu is made a big issue the Tories suffer as a result. Best to keep quite then take eurosceptic action when in power. There was an article in the Spectator a couple of weeks ago about how Cameron would probably be the most Eurosceptic PM since Mrs T in her later years. Some Eurocrat was apparently horrified at what a Cameron might do to jam up the workings of the EU.
August 24, 2008 at 15:07
Further to my last post, although the Tories may be united on Europe the BBC can be guaranteed to drug up someone like Kenneth Clarke to give the impression that the tories are divided.
August 24, 2008 at 15:09
Predictable comments. The fact remains that UKIP's failure has been total. It is weaker now than it was two or three years ago despite events which should have strengthened. I doubt it even has the ability to influence the result in more than a very few seats if indeed be any.
I find it sad that some of the more deluded posters still seem to think otherwise and wish they would transfer their influence to the Conservative party.
Malcolm Dunn |
August 24, 2008 at 15:10
"... although the Tories may be united on Europe..."
If the Tories are united on Europe perhaps some passing Tory can enlighten us on the policy about which they are united.
August 24, 2008 at 15:15
I don't remember Nigel Farage constantly banging on about the EU on Question Time, but I do remember his fresh thinking on other issues: questioning the wisdom of foreign interventionism in Iraq and Afganistan and condemning drug prohibition for being a total failure, and suggesting legalisation would be preferable.
I thought it was great to hear a conservative-minded individual voicing such opinions on television.
Tom H |
August 24, 2008 at 15:20
Malcolm wrote "I find it sad that some of the more deluded posters still seem to think otherwise and wish they would transfer their influence to the Conservative party."
Malcolm, I was a member of the Conservative Party for over 30 years and was a Parliamentary Candidate. I left when I realised that the Conservative Party had abandoned its Euroscepticism and pro-freedom policies.
On the EU, Cameron reneged on his promise to leave the EPP and dropped the policy on repatriating fishing policy. He ditched the patients' passport and committed the Tories to increasing state spending in real terms. That is what "sharing the proceeds of growth" really means. Only Michael Gove's education policy is remotely pro-freedom of choice. That's not good enough.
There is no point in electing a Conservative government when over 70% of our laws are imposed from Brussels (Theresa May's figure). To have a real Conservative government, we need to leave the EU.
I would urge Conservative members and supporters here to vote UKIP next June. That will send an important message to Cameron and the EU fanatics who dominate his MEP delegation and regional candidates lists.
You can then vote Conservative with a clear conscience at the next general election.
August 24, 2008 at 15:25
Most of you are right about a UKIP threat to us,let's just forget about them and stop mentioning them.
There now,everyone can lie down and go to sleep.
The boggieman doesn't exist.
August 24, 2008 at 15:43
Pal of the swamp creature perhaps?
August 24, 2008 at 15:44
Unfortunately, Malcolm Dunn is symptomatic of many in the Conservative Party nowadays who operate like the old Communist Party: sorry, but you can be on the Right and reject the way in which David Cameron has turned the Party from one of the right to a social democratic one.
I have little doubt that he will be our country's next Prime Minister. However, this has more to do with a wholesale (and understandable) rejection of New Labour. What the Conservative Party has to face is that there is absolutely no postive embracing of it in the country as a whole: even in safe seats, Associations are dying out, the recovery of the Party is wholly regional and the likely honeymoon period of an incoming Conservative Government will be very short.
The Conservatives' biggest lie was the slogan: In Europe,not Run by Europe. Sorry, but that's impossible, it's the whole point of the EU.
UKIP has a very brave and honourable position compared to all other political parties. That is that this country cannot be a sovereign, independent democracy whilst we remain within the EU. And we would be better off out.
Mark Hudson |
August 24, 2008 at 16:00
"There was an article in the Spectator a couple of weeks ago about how Cameron would probably be the most Eurosceptic be the most Eurosceptic PM since Mrs T in her later years. "
Yes and another in the FT plus similar spin from Andrew Marr.Not true though.
"There now,everyone can lie down and go to sleep." tick tock,is that an alarm clock or----?
michael mcgough |
August 24, 2008 at 16:04
"In about thirty seats in the 2005 General Election the difference between a Conservative and a pro-EU party winning was about half the UKIP vote".
If that is true, then it is something for Team Cameron to take into serious consideration.
However, I hope that by the time we get close to the GE, the conservatives will have come up with positive policies that will attract UKIP sympathisers sufficiently to vote for a major party that actually stands a chance of getting into government.
David Belchamber |
August 24, 2008 at 16:10
Given the strong Euroscepticism (which is the only word the UKIP Bebo site uses to describe its ideology) of the Shadow Cabinet, do the UKIP Members not feel a sense of being redundant, and useless part in the cog of British Politics? Because they certainly look like it.
Ulster Tory |
August 24, 2008 at 16:40
The nutters and obsessives are out today. Do they let them use the computers on Bank Holiday weekends? I suppose there short of staff in the various institutions there in so I suppose it keeps them occupied.
Jack Stone |
August 24, 2008 at 16:55
'Malcolm Dunn is symptomatic of many in the Conservative Party who operate like the old Communist party'. Even for you Mark that's not a very bright thing to say. Also untrue.
During the time In Europe and not run by Europe was the Conservative Party slogan I seem to remember you were happy to serve as an Association Chairman.
UKIP may well adopt 'a brave and honourable position' it is also a complete and total failure.
Malcolm Dunn |
August 24, 2008 at 16:56
"do the UKIP Members not feel a sense of being redundant, and useless part in the cog of British Politics? Because they certainly look like it."
You mean, kind of like being an Ulster Tory?
August 24, 2008 at 16:57
If UKIP is so irrelevant then why are there so many UKIP posters out here today? And why are the Cameron loyalists so keen to put UKIP down?
Methinks you (Cameron Loyalists) do protest too much! Maybe you know, in you heart of hearts, that too many of your fellow Tories are “closet Ukippers” and will vote for UKIP next spring.
August 24, 2008 at 17:03
Anyone got any idea on when the last centrist Tory Government was in power?
As for UKIP,we need to be on our guard,at the very least,we don't want to be taken by surprise again,do we?
August 24, 2008 at 17:13
Being against a Federal Euro Superstate run by unelected technocrats, and so not subject to genuine democratic accountability, is not necessarily party political. There are those on the left who are as strongly against that as there are on the right. Where UKIP has manifestly failed is in choosing to try to be some kind of right of centre catch all party rather than concentrating principally on the Euro danger message and thereby building a broad base of support.
The vast majority of the British public, Conservative voters and the pParty's membership are Eurosceptic and it is a disgrace that we as a party have allowed the Eurofederalist minority to succeed in their strategy of making the topic toxic and off limits. That is something that has to be reversed.
Having said that if the Conservatives ever do become anything but Eurosceptic then my vote, membership fees and extensive time commitments will by default end up with UKIP.
Mr Angry |
August 24, 2008 at 17:15
Ahhh Jack Stone; patently a nutter and obsessive if ever there was one, as usual he's the pot calling the kettle black.
Mr Angry |
August 24, 2008 at 17:20
Instead all we get is the commitment to unfettered free-trade, which as we know puts British workers out of work as coolie economies around the world pay sweatshop wages.
As countries about the world become wealthier, so their wages and employment conditions will tend to rise, UKIP are committed to de-regulating the labour market and so creating as much as possible the same free market conditions that employers operating from the other economies are able to benefit from, bringing back protectionism will just spark new trade wars and shortages around the world.
UKIP exist because none of the 3 main political parties have any real committment to neccessary reforms in the EU or the acceptance that such reforms are unlikely to be agreed to and so withdrawal is pretty much an absolute neccessity unless the UK simply wants to accept that the EU will continue to gain extra powers over the UK.
At the 2005 General Election UKIP increased their vote by more than the increase in the Conservative vote despite Robert Kilroy Silk breaking away and forming Veritas, UKIP has always struggled to get votes in Local Elections and Devolved Elections, they have been making progress in parliamentary elections and in European Elections over the past decade.
If the Conservative Party ultimately fails to abandon the policy of in Europe, but not run by Europe then British people will find a replacement who will take the neccessary action, platitudinal soundbites are no substitute for action.
Yet Another Anon |
August 24, 2008 at 17:40
Yet Another Anon, good points. And don't forget that UKIP also exists because none of the main parties have Conservative policies.
Peter W |
August 24, 2008 at 19:41
UKIP stands against Conservative candidates and hands seats to the Euro fanatic Lib Dems.
Joe James B |
August 24, 2008 at 19:42
Or maybe UKIP stands against LibDem candidates and hands seats to the Euro hypocritical Tories.
Ultimately, you can only vote for the party which best represents your point of view and, sadly, the Conservative party (its leadership but not its membership) has been diametrically opposed to most of my my political beliefs for at least 15 years.
August 24, 2008 at 19:59
Well, Malcolm Dunn, obviously your small bonus this year has got to you. Or maybe you were passed over for promotion again.
Anyway, I was a Conservative Association Chairman when the Party slogan was: In Europe, Not Run by Europe. However, I voted UKIP in 2004, as did 5 of my 7 Management Team members. The slogan was a lie then and a lie now.
The sad fact is that all political parties are failing at present. Take a look at the Electoral Commission website and spot the decline of membership of all parties, including in supposedly safe Tory seats.
Mark Hudson |
August 24, 2008 at 20:56
Why are you bothering to give the UKIP makeover any publicity on ConHom?
They seemed to have disappeared into the ether these days apart from the occasional appearance of Farage on a politics show.
August 24, 2008 at 21:36
"If UKIP is so irrelevant then why are there so many UKIP posters out here today?"
Hold on, run that past me again. You are judging UKIP's based on popularity on the number of pro-UKIP posters on ConHome? Minority organisations are renowned for being organised and vocal. Furthermore if you were to judge the popularity of political positions by taking a look at the blogosphere then libertarianism would be a mass movement.
"And why are the Cameron loyalists so keen to put UKIP down?"
I probably have more in common with UKIP than Cameron but the latter is more likely to get into power and actually do something about the EU. UKIP will never hold power and only assist the pro-EU parties.
"Maybe you know, in you heart of hearts, that too many of your fellow Tories are “closet Ukippers” and will vote for UKIP next spring."
My views are closer to UKIP than the Tories at the moment but I'm still voting Tory.
August 24, 2008 at 22:16
"the latter is more likely to get into power and actually do something about the EU"
Exactly; which is what they have been doing for the past 30 years. They will take is deeper into it.
Passer By |
August 24, 2008 at 22:45
Richard, reading your posts on this thread, I can see that you are slowly turning to UKIP; each post is a wee bit less hostile and slightly more sympathetic than the last. One day, although you may not understand it yet yourself, you will jump. You and many other Tories too (and not only Tories).
Come on Richard, the water is warm. Take the plunge!
August 24, 2008 at 23:04
The Conservative Party is certainly united over the EU. With a few dismal exceptions, the Party hates the EU and would pull out tomorrow if it only believed it could. The problem is that the exceptions are all MPs and most of them are in the Shadow Cabinet.
What about half the Tory apologists above are saying is that this is true but that Cameron has noted that the EU tends to be a divisive issue and with his current lead would rather announce his real opinions after and not before a General Election. It is not difficult to see that these people have learned to type with both fingers crossed.
The other half are the dismal exceptions gloating at their cleverness in controlling a Party to do and say things it detests. It is not difficult to see that these people have learned to type with their fingers widely separated in an ancient anglo-saxon gesture.
I will be voting UKIP in June 2009. I will also vote Conservative in the GE, if I have mastered holding the pencil with my fingers crossed. By the 2014 GE the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...
August 25, 2008 at 00:02
David_at_Home, the water is not lovely. It is the rotting urine of a few obsessed old men. What we're doing in the Conservative party is rebuilding a party which can serve the public across a range of policy issues.
West London Tory |
August 25, 2008 at 01:04
UKIP will never hold power and only assist the pro-EU parties.
It isn't just about having power though, if UKIP were to build up a number of MPs, then in the House of Commons they could start to work with MPs favouring withdrawal both in Labour and Conservative Party, also any DUP and UUP MPs and possibly force change.
Until the SNP surge in the early 1970s Labour refused to have anything to do with the idea of devolved national assemblies\parliaments for Scotland and Wales - later a government that had fallen into minority eventually granted a referendum, later a devolved parliament for Scotland and a devolved assembly for Wales became Labour Party policy, for many years many in the Labour and Liberal Parties and some in the Conservative Party had been favourable to the idea, and of course it was implimented early on in this government.
There could come a point where a government in minority or facing a difficult issue could depend on the support of smaller parties and a coalition of UKIP and DUP working with disenchanted Labour and Conservative MPs could as a price for backing in a confidence motion force a referendum on withdrawal from the EU, the Liberal Democrats out of political expediency might support such a call and it could happen. There could be a swing in parliament among party lines towards favouring withdrawal and at some point in the future there could be some kind of merger between UKIP and the Conservative Party to form an unbeatable alliance resulting in a new post Social Democrat politics.
Yet Another Anon |
August 25, 2008 at 02:27
UKIP stands against Conservative candidates
No, they stand against candidates from Dave's Conservatives.
Peter W |
August 25, 2008 at 06:10
West London Tory - I couldn't agree with you more though rotting urine is a pretty horrible thought particularly at this time in the morning!!
I also agree with those who ask why on earth we are giving UKIP the oxygen of publicity on Conservative Home! They obviously don't have a decent website so they come over here - I suppose we should regard it as a compliment!
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 08:46
"Richard, reading your posts on this thread, I can see that you are slowly turning to UKIP; each post is a wee bit less hostile and slightly more sympathetic than the last."
Sorry, my pro-UKIP days are over! Even then I think I was defending them because some of the attacks on them were unfair (calling them "extreme" etc).
August 25, 2008 at 11:12
Sally Roberts,fyi,Conservative Home is frequented mainly by the long time Conservatives like myself.
Some of us want our country out of the undemocratic EU just as much as you want us you wish for us all to be consumed by it.
Are you even aware of what democracy is?
August 25, 2008 at 11:21
James: "You mean, kind of like being an Ulster Tory?"
Not really, after all - The Conservatives have a future in Northern Ireland. The media and electorate are interested in our opinions. Pity the same cannot be said for the UKIP...
Ulster Tory |
August 25, 2008 at 13:07
Yet another Anon: "It isn't just about having power though, if UKIP were to build up a number of MPs, then in the House of Commons they could start to work with MPs favouring withdrawal both in Labour and Conservative Party, also any DUP and UUP MPs and possibly force change."
You should do your research a bit more. The DUP are Europhiles (or will be as for as long as they profit from it), and the SDLP are too. The only strong Eurosceptic party in NI are Sinn Fein. Have fun working with them.
Ulster Tory |
August 25, 2008 at 13:14
"I also agree with those who ask why on earth we are giving UKIP the oxygen of publicity on Conservative Home!"
Perhaps because the EU remains a touchstone issue with many Conservative voters, who really don't trust the Conservative party leadership over the EU.
August 25, 2008 at 13:26
Conservative supporters have got to decide where their loyalties lie, to their party or to their country. Just look at the Conservative Party's record on Europe. Look at where it has got this country.The Conservative hierarchy are never going to advocate withdrawal from the E.U. If you dislke the E.U. then you must support U.K.I.P. When Conservative party membership seeps away then ,and only then,will the party leadership become realistic on the subject of the E.U.
August 25, 2008 at 13:49
"Sally Roberts,fyi,Conservative Home is frequented mainly by the long time Conservatives like myself."
As you are a "long time" Conservative, R. Baker, will you be at Party Conference? If so, I issue an invitation for you to come and meet me personally over a coffee or a drink to debate the issue! I did this last year for various people who were of a similar view to yourself but sadly no one took the invitation up! My telephone number is 07786 997547 so please get in touch.
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 13:53
Sally Roberts,you will have to excuse me from your teaparty,this is mainly because I and others consider you to be an out and out Communist European Unionist,therefore,I could never bring my self to take tea with you or with others who frequent your dismal circle.
Your Eurofanaticism is laughable yet sickening to many.
August 25, 2008 at 14:26
That's fine, R.Baker! Don't worry I had a feeling that would be your response but how disappointing for you because you will never discover the truth...
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 14:35
Ms Sally,I already know the truth,and so do many more so called eurosceptics,however,they just can't get around to admitting it and consequently,they are not doing anything about it,yet,but they will do eventually
Thanks for the offer of a date with you and your number,but I have made it a rule never to go on blind dates,and to be suspicious of anyone giving out their phone numbers on the internet too.
Are you a covert eurofanatical Liberal Democrat by any chance,Sally?
August 25, 2008 at 14:44
"Are you a covert eurofanatical Liberal Democrat by any chance,Sally?"
You will never know!
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 14:49
What has happened to the Movement for European Reform which was supposed to show the way ahead for the Consrvative party and was introduced with considerable fanfare 2 years ago by David Cameron. It appears to be moribund.
jean shaw |
August 25, 2008 at 15:28
If I ever find somewhere to stay I'll take you up on your offer. Although I imagine several hours later we wil be poles apart; no pun intended.
Whatever others have to say most of the UKIP members I know are good honest people who believe in their country. Unfortunately for them are let down by a coterie of MEP who have lost touch with reality and have indulged themselves in a variety of very unbecoming behaviour both personally and, in some cases, financially.
John Broughton |
August 25, 2008 at 15:59
If I ever find somewhere to stay I'll take you up on your offer. Although I imagine several hours later we wil be poles apart; no pun intended."
Yes do, John! My offer is made in good faith and I am sure you will find that you and I have more in common than you previously thought.
And to think all this has come about because I have repeatedly upheld my view that this country should be "in Europe but not run by Europe"! If I am worthy of being called all the names that I have been called, then so equally are all the leadership of the Conservative Party plus a majority of its membership (despite what some of you may think!)
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 16:12
Afternoon all, nothing like a dreary bank holiday weekend to get political siblings bickering.
If only you spent as much time criticising Labour and the Libdems!
Anyway the reason I popped on was to highlight an article on one of Conhome's sibling sights - America In The World which frames Dr Tannock's ridiculous recent assertion that the EU is democratic on a previous thread perfectly (are you lurking Charles?).
I'm sure it is something that both Eurosceptic Conservatives and UKIP members can agree on. It's an excellent summary:
America In The World - EU Briefing
Now if only we Conservatives and UKIP could only find a compromise (and stop sniping at each other) on what to do about the EU then we could focus on dealing with them, Labour the Libdems and the rest of the autocrats and Oligarchs far more effectively.
There is another good article on Global Governance as well.
John Leonard |
August 25, 2008 at 17:09
If only you spent as much time criticising Labour and the Libdems!"
John Leonard - I do!
If only you took the trouble to take an interest in political topics other than Europe!
Sally Roberts |
August 25, 2008 at 17:36
On freedom of speech, UKIP's criminal justice policy paper says all view points should be heard provided they do not call for crime, violence or the overthrow of democracy. They would repeal laws that criminalise opinion and belief, and would instead focus police attention on actual crimes, not political ones.
We should promise the same. Freedom of speech (and religion and to live peacefully according to one's conscience) is a basic freedom that has been eroded in recent years under Labour, and we should not let UKIP hijack such an important policy area that gets to the core of what it means to be a free nation.
August 25, 2008 at 18:01
Well it is great to see the clear pledge to keep GB£ on the new UKIP homepage, and we will be watching David Cameron's general election manifesto very, very carefully to ensure he includes the same.
Typepad needs updating! It does not allow GB£.com as a URL.
GB£.com - The non-partisan Campaign to keep the Great British Pound |
August 25, 2008 at 18:29
".. we should not let UKIP hijack such an important policy area that gets to the core of what it means to be a free nation."
UKIP is not hijacking anything but merely stating what most people believe (albeit the media effectively blocks the message). If the Conservative Party and/or The Labour Party adopted the fundamental beliefs of freedom and democracy which UKIP holds so dear, then UKIP would happily disband.
August 25, 2008 at 19:16
Jean Shaw wrote "What has happened to the Movement for European Reform which was supposed to show the way ahead for the Consrvative party and was introduced with considerable fanfare 2 years ago by David Cameron. It appears to be moribund."
The MER has not had the investment, i.e. funds and staff, that it needs to be influential. The website has little content and is updated rarely. Conservative MEPs do not take it seriously because they know it was a sop to appease Conservatives who want to leave the EPP.
There is no memtion of MER on the party conference agenda or fringe guide. This is the last conference before the European Elections and the promised formation of a new Group in the European Parliament!! Do you honestly believe that David Cameron will deliver his promise to leave the EPP? I don't!
August 25, 2008 at 20:22
The problem for the Cameroons is that UKIP has many supporters and sympathisers embedded within the Conservative Party, even in its upper reaches. For example, look at Daniel Hannan's Blog here:
Then scroll down and see what Young Independence member Michael Heaver (aged 18 so hardly an old man!) was told off screen by IDS when they appeared on Question Time together.
Added to the covert support of many Tories is the growing appeal of UKIP to some ex Old Labour supporters and the expanding influence of the Young Independence movement amongst the highly EU sceptic 18 to 25 age group.
So Bob Spink may have been only the first of many and we may yet rain on David Cameron's parade!
August 25, 2008 at 23:10
You're completely deluded David. There are indeed thousands of Conservatives very sympathetic to the Eurosceptic cause but there's a huge difference between that and wasting time voting for a completely busted flush. UKIP is not going forward it's going back. Good men like Dan Hannan or Phillip Hollobone could if they wished stand for UKIP but they know they'd never achieve anything. It really is such a shame that a good man like Nigel Farage doesn't seem to realise this too.
Malcolm Dunn |
August 25, 2008 at 23:23
I don't know what so many of you think is wrong with Europe and the Lisburn treaty. UKIP has got it all wrong aswell.
It's so awful that the Irish didn't understand why this constitushion is esential to the cohesion of Europe, and we must keep up our stupendous momentum with the construcitve development of Europe.
The Irish have caused us all a problem by delaying the whole process. Their government should have had contingency plans in place to put it back to a second referndum.
Gloy Plopwell |
August 26, 2008 at 00:30
Malcolm, it is you who is deluded. The Conservatives thought that UKIP was a busted flush in 2004. Then it got 16% of the vote and beat the Lib Dems in the European elections. A recent Yougov poll, for Open Europe revealed that the voters are much more Eurosceptic now. A quarter wanting to leave. An additional 38% want just a free trade agreement. That means two thirds of voters think that Britain is Better Off Out of the EU and in EFTA instead.
Malcolm is also ignoring the inconvenient truth that his employer, Iain Dale at Total Politics, has admitted publicly that he voted for UKIP in the European elections.
Philip Hollobone would not be allowed near a safe seat by the EUfanatical Cameroons like John Maples. Maples,the Deputy Chairman (Candidates), was one of only 5 Tory MPs who did not vote for a referendum on Lisbon. Philip was lucky to get in before they purged the candidates list and pressured associations into deslecting EUsceptics like Tim Butcher in Gillingham.
Time to wake up and smell Dave's Europhile coffee!
August 26, 2008 at 00:41
"the expanding influence of the Young Independence movement amongst the highly EU sceptic 18 to 25 age group."
That is complete nonsense on two counts.
1. Why are under-18s not put into your classification? I'm 17 (therefore at the Euro elections I shall be able to vote), and proud to be branded a "Europhobe" by ranting lefties. You need to learn who in the electorate to target - so far on this thread you have burnt bridges, not offered hands across!
2. As a eurosceptic 17 year old, who is quite politically informed, how come I have never even heard of the supposedly "influential" Young independence movement? Perhaps because it is isn't actually influential, and has a low profile among the demograph it targets?
Ulster Tory |
August 26, 2008 at 01:04
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