Do the Tories want to renegotiate Britain's relationship with Europe?

Many Eurosceptics are unhappy at last week's apparent admission by David Cameron that a retrospective vote on Lisbon would be unlikely once it has been ratified by all EU states.  We must all hope that the Irish vote 'no' in their referendum (polls say the outcome is close) or, less likely, Stuart Wheeler succeeds in his valiant legal attempt to force Labour to honour its manifesto commitment.

In an article for The Sunday Telegraph, Norman Blackwell of Global Vision acknowledges that once Lisbon has been ratified it will be near impossible to hold a retrospective referendum.  Furthermore, as Andrew Lilico has written, our problem with the EU-UK settlement goes wider than what Lisbon will produce.  A wider renegotiation is desirable and Lord Blackwell sets out some ideal objectives for an incoming Conservative Government:

• Remaining in the EU: "Clearly, the starting point should be that we want to stay part of the European family, building on free-trade relationships, joining in common programmes in areas such as security and the environment, and helping to foster peace and democracy across the continent."
• Undoing Lisbon: "We should seek to remove the UK from the provisions of Lisbon that compromise our independence in foreign policy, defence and justice. Any common policy in these areas should remain truly intergovernmental."
• Repatriation of control of fishing, agriculture and the powers surrendered to the Social Chapter.

Lord Blackwell claims that there is public support for such a renegotiation.  But there are two bigger questions, one which he addresses and one which he does not.

• The first question concerns whether the EU would allow Britain to negotiate a new relationship. Lord Blackwell believes that common economic and other interests would force the EU to make a deal with us.  Perhaps more significantly he also notes Giscard d'Estaing's view that it might make it easier for the rest of the EU to form their United States if Britain, graduated to a looser UK-EU relationship, can no longer brake the other member governments' ambitions.
• The second question concerns whether the Conservative Party has the will to mount such a renegotiation. The answer to that is almost certainly 'no'.  Such a project would absorb all of the energies of a new Conservative government and distract it from its primary ambitions to reform schools, welfare and mend the family.  The challenge for the Eurosceptic groups is to build a coalition within the party that will make it more likely in the later years of a Conservative government - perhaps in a second term.  This might be easier after Conservative ministers begin to realise how much their hands are tied by the current EU relationship.  It will also require more co-operation from Eurosceptic groups.  Their current relations are too reminiscent of the divisions between the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea.

Comments

[James, Swad]

Alternatively, withdraw from the EU and sign up to the Euroean Free Trade Agreement.

All the benefits of the EU's trading bloc.

None of the meddling.

[chrisblore]

As I understand it, as part of the European Free Trade Agreement, you get all of the benefits but are effectively subject to EU law with no say. Surely we are better off having some say (albeit small as it is) over the rules to which we would be subject by remaining in the EU, preferably with a renegotiated position that protects British interests and undoes the damage caused by Lisbon and the repatriation of more of the supranational powers.

[Ken Stevens]

All this seems so reasonable and sensible that I can't understand why the term "Swivel-eyed" is attached to those who hold such views. I suspect that one day, the sole remaining Tory Europhile will still be labelling the others thus.

And why would "Such a project ..absorb all of the energies of a new Conservative government"?

Surely, having set the ball rolling, the rest of it would trundle along along in parallel with all the other important topics to be tackled. The underlying pressure would be that a referendum would be held regardless in due course. Whether it was on the terms of the renegotiated status within EU or on continuing membership per se would depend on the success of renegotiation.

If in fact EU would see itself better off without us and therefore be intransigent during attempts at renegotiation, so be it.
Orf we jolly well go !

[Dave B]

I think we're members of the WTO independent of our EU membership. Surely that would provide a degree of access to the EU market if we left the EU, and didn't join the EFTA?

[Dale]

David Cameron could just appoint a tory grandee to deal with it on a cross party basis (screwing the libdems and labour when it comes time for a referendum, ofcourse) while aconservative government dealth with issues considered to be higher priority in voters minds.

The more I understand about what the EU is and what the people want, th more I come to realise that the british people do want to leave.

There is little doubt in my mind that a United Kingdom with an associate membership of the EU would only be the first in a long line of associate members.

[Martin Cole]

I have said it on my blog but feel it worth repeating here:

"Clearly, the starting point should be that we want to stay part of the European family, building on free-trade relationships, joining in common programmes in areas such as security and the environment, and helping to foster peace and democracy across the continent. "

Lord Blackwell of Global Vision writing in the Sunday Telegraph today.

AND if the "European family" decides to revert to totalitarianism for a few years or decades, whether more similar to fascism or marxism, it matters not which, will that remain our starting point?

Muddled thinking ignoring our island state credentials. If the EU abandons democracy as seems increasingly likely, we must build our defenses while strengthening our ties to historic allies on other continents. If Lisbon is ratified our only out is via the provisions of that Treaty which will prove an act of economic warfare against us. How we would react under the present leadership of the nation is perfectly clear - surrender and capitulation.

[Dave B]

"The challenge for the Eurosceptic groups is to build a coalition within the party that will make it more likely in the later years of a Conservative government - perhaps in a second term. This might be easier after Conservative ministers begin to realise how much their hands are tied by the current EU relationship."

I'm not sure that's a challenge at all. I think the parliamentary Conservative Party is already there, firmly Eurosceptic, and ready to leave the EU.

The emerging Conservative policy platform seems to be linked by themes of devolution of power to it's lowest level, and democratic accountability to the people. Membership of the EU doesn't fit into that very well.

I think the parliamentary Conservative Party has already resolved to spend their first term implementing changes to 'fix the broken society', and reinvigorate local democracy with the secondary intention of preparing the ground for an in/out vote on the EU.

A good faith attempt to renegotiate our relationship with the EU (fully justified given Labour's reneging on a referendum on Lisbon/EU Constitution) will provide an excellent preparation of our allies, trading partners, and the British people for our exit from the EU.

[George Hinton]

The problem with Lisbon is that it gives ever more power to the Commission, unelected and unaccountable, which retains a starry eyed vision of Europe, and will not look at the fault lines, which it has no recognition of. Couple that, with the increasing marginalisation of the EU Parliament under Hans-Gert Poettering, which seeks to curtail debate and opposition, and we are heading to towards a neo-Napoleonic/Fascist state.
I also find it distasteful that NuLab find it impossible to recognise the facts, that the Treaty is no different from the Constitution. That the people are not to trusted with democratic process and decision making. Some politicians may well find the EU wonderful, but, given the manner in which the EU has used a process of creep and stealth to insinuate its ways, proper debate needs to be imposed if we are to yield sovereignty.
Gordon Brown has said that he is listening and getting on with the job, well from the perspective of Lisbon he is not listening and acting rather dictatorially.
Additionally from the recent viewpoint of MEP's expenses, the lack of audit sign-off, the fact that MEP's are elected on PR and have no loyalty to the electorate, there is a serious need for a construct and connect between the electorate and Europhiles.

[michael mcgough]

" This might be easier after Conservative ministers begin to realise how much their hands are tied by the current EU relationship."

If they are not already aware they should NOT be MPs let alone ministers.

As usual a hint of action but always in the future---manana,manana.

As with the EPP and a referendum Cameron promises that which he will not deliver.

[Edward Huxley]

The article by Patrick Hennessy in the Sunday Telegraph says "The ICM opinion poll for Global vision, the Eurosceptic campaign group,found that AMONG PEOPLE WHO WANT TO REMAIN IN THE EU, a majority would like Britain to opt out of political and economic union, and restrict itself to links based on trade and co-operation."

It does not mention the growing number who believe that desirable state can only be achieved by first withdrawing from the EU.

It`s no use Cameron rabbiting on about reforming the EU. Unless backed up by the threat of withdrawal, he is wasting his time. Brussels will just laugh.

[Don Hoyle]

"If the EU abandons democracy" - Martin Cole @ 09:52.

Sorry, Martin, the EU abandoned democracy a long time ago, when it forced countries to re-hold referenda which gave the 'wrong' answer.

We have to get a grip on our own laws (for instance rescind compulsory metrication, ignore EU imposed 'targets' for green power generation et al) and, if the EU disagrees, tell them to go jump in a lake!

Unfortunately, much of what is wrong with the EU stems from over-enforcement or gold-plating of EU regulations and directives, so we have to start with our home-grown quislings. That does not mean we can't renegotiate our terms of membership, or leave altogether (my own preferred option!).

[David Belchamber]

I repeat my view that on this vitally important issue we canvass the will of the people and then the conservative government should implement that view.

I believe that the majority of the people accept (i) the original aim of forming a coalition of sovereign nations, to avoid further European wars (ii) a common market and (iii) very close co-operation on defence, policing etc.

I also believe that we do not want any further erosion of our sovereignty, a single currency, the bureaucracy, the gravy train and the squandering of resources on an even higher scale than Gordon Brown's.

Promise a referendum on those choices within a year of taking over and then trust the people.

[Not Stormin Norman]

Norman Blackwell writes "Clearly, the starting point should be that we want to stay part of the European family, building on free-trade relationships, joining in common programmes in areas such as security and the environment, and helping to foster peace and democracy across the continent."

Can someone who knows him explain the difference between a "free-trade relationships" (as between, say, America and Switzerland) and the customs union that is the EU (ie one cannot have one's trade terms with a "third country"). It's fundamental and one would expect him to know the difference. As for "common programmes in areas such as ... the environment", has he heard of the Common Fisheries Policy, the CAP, the car-battery dumping, the Emissions Trading Scheme (which rapes our hospitals to fatten up foreign energy companies) etc etc? As for "helping to foster democracy"! Ye Gods! Er, "democratic deficit" anyone?

[John Broughton]

Don Hoyle - you go there before me!

The eu does not understand democracy. If there were a scintilla of a desire for democracy the eu would insist that all members hold a referendum on Lisbon etc.

Just remember the referendum protest in the chamber where the official film and record has expunged the protest from the records.

Those who talk of reform from within should recall that it never happens - all that does happen is ever closer union.

We must leave; we have nothing to fear they need our trade.

[Helen]

The EU and its previous reincarnations (EEC, EC) were never intended to be democratic. There is no point in assuming that and then crying that somehow the structure has gone awry. It has not gone awry. This is how it was always intended to be.

What Lord Blackwell and Global Vision seem unable to explain is how they are going to achieve the utopia of a new relationship within the EU. To do that they have to change the treaties and that can be done only unanimously. So what is Britain going to promise to the other countries in order to get their vote? Of course, this is never explained to the public in those opinion polls so the answers are always the same: "yes, we would like a different relationship". Global Vision ought to know better but do not seem to.

[Helen]

The EU and its previous reincarnations (EEC, EC) were never intended to be democratic. There is no point in assuming that and then crying that somehow the structure has gone awry. It has not gone awry. This is how it was always intended to be.

What Lord Blackwell and Global Vision seem unable to explain is how they are going to achieve the utopia of a new relationship within the EU. To do that they have to change the treaties and that can be done only unanimously. So what is Britain going to promise to the other countries in order to get their vote? Of course, this is never explained to the public in those opinion polls so the answers are always the same: "yes, we would like a different relationship". Global Vision ought to know better but do not seem to.

[Iain]

"Do the Tories want to renegotiate Britain's relationship with Europe?"

I don't know, do they? But if they do they are going to have to prove it for we have been led down the garden path too many times to trust any Governing party on this issue. No doubt Majors Government had a laugh at our expense when they sold us the pup of 'subsidiarity', we were mislead about Maastricht, the same with this lousy Government over Nice, the Constitution etc, and so far Cameron’s words over the EU fall into the same category as all the other garbage we've been sold on the EU.

So on this the British political establishment have no credibility, if they want us to believe anything then they are going to have to come up with concrete proposals over which we can hold them to account if they fail or backslide over their promises. So far the only concrete proposal from Cameron has been to withdraw from the EPP. This is a promise he has reneged on, other than that all we have got are some airy fairy undertakings to revisit the Lisbon treaty, well may be. That’s not good enough. I want to see clear proposals on specific issues , possibly just one, to repatriate powers over one area, for I think the most important thing is to establish a precedence and procedure to repatriate powers from the evil empire, and just as they have built this edifice salami slice by salamis slice, that is the only way we will be able to unpick it.

[Dave B]

@David Belchamber 10:39
"Promise a referendum on those choices within a year of taking over and then trust the people."

Disagree with that. I think Mr Montgomerie is right when he says that:

"Such a project would absorb all of the energies of a new Conservative government and distract it from its primary ambitions "

While the EU is an issue that needs addressing, I think other goals are more important.

The Conservatives are talking about changing the role of the state in Britain. Taking the state out of service delivery, using and strengthening non-state institutions instead.

Together with welfare reform, I think successful implementation of these goals would be a massive win for conservatives. We would see the end of the socialist state mechanism enacted after WW2, and a refactoring of the welfare state on the model of the non-state institutions that had emerged in the late-nineteenth/early twentieth century.

The EU is an important issue, but I think there is a more important goal that should take priority.

[RichardJ]

What exactly would the Europeans reject about Britain simply having a free trade agreement with the EU? Why do they need us to have CAP, metrification, the common external tariff, social chapter etc?

[Edward Huxley]

Just a quick comment. Dave B doesn`t seem to understand that the desirable reforms he mentions are just not be achievable if we stay in the EU. The present 80% of our laws coming from Brussels would soon become 100%. Sorry, Dave B. the only way is OUT.

[Ken Stevens]

Dave B | June 08, 2008 at 11:37
".. other goals are more important..."

What can be more important than the fundamentals of who governs the country, with the discretion to apply all the various domestic policies/strategies?

[David Parker]

Once the Lisbon Con/Treaty is fully ratified and in force, there is not the slightest chance of any unilateral renegotiation by Britain.
In the first place, France (and several other member states) would certainly vote against this, whatever the terms, except, possibly, our complete departure from the EU. Secondly, it would set a dangerous precedent, since if we were to succeed numerous other members would also demand similar concessions. That, of course, would signal the beginning of the end of "The EU rand Project"
Both Cameron and Hague have always been fully aware of this and would never, under any circumstances, contemplate Britain withdrawing from the EU. The most that we can exect from them is a polite little charade with the European Council, the outcome of which has probably already been agreed.
Whilst the majority of the members of the Conservative party may be genuinely eurosceptic, the new Conservative Government, if there should be one, will certainly not be.
The dishonesty, about their true EU intentions, with which they have deliberately misled the people of this country should serve as a warning to us all.
However, and here's the rub, what alternative is there?

[Pete]

The party won't insist on any repatriation of powers from the EU because the only way of achieving that is threatening to leave and mean it. I can't see UKIP being out of a job for quite a while.

[Derek W. Buxton]

As they stand now, the "conservative" party will not, not now, not ever pull us out of the EU, they love it just as much as NU-Lab/non-Lib Dems do. They will not even admit that our sovereignty has ben given away just because they are still being paid their obcene "wages of sin", happy as pigs in a trough. The "Bill of Rights" of course makes their claim nonsense and illegal, we are governed by Brussels.

[Chris Gillibrand]

Treaties are there to be abrogated.

The Lisbon Treaty does however specify in Article 50.

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own
constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.

In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the
framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) (insert from here- The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security
Policy where the agreement envisaged relates exclusively or principally to the common foreign and security policy, shall submit recommendations to the Council, which shall adopt a decision authorising
the opening of negotiations and, depending on the subject of the agreement envisaged, nominating the Union negotiator or the head of the Union's negotiating team.END INSERT!) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

_________

Constitutions are a different matter- that is why they were so desperate for a constitution.

I sit in my Brussels lair and am constantly amazed at the supine attitude of the UK to EU presumptions, not just on sovereignty but on the natural desire of all for freedom and prosperity. A renegotiation might just help a few more European nations to grow up- not the result the pseudo-patrician Giscard would hope for.

[Sam R]

Whenever we win back control of Westminster from the useless lot now in place, we should simply go our merry (or, in this case, the all too sad and difficult) way of trying to put right the social and economic mess that NuLab wil have bequeathed us.
Then, if and when some jobsworth in Brussels/Luxembourg/Strasbourg, or on their nice new train somewhere in between, tries to tell us we are out of order, we give him the response of John Cleese of the People's Front of Judea.
We then list all the areas where we intend to assume/re-assume our competency, and tell the EU so. For starters I offer:-
defence (through NATO);
fisheries (seek guidance from Iceland or Norway);
metrication (how much did it cost to change the 1/10 mile posts along the motorways to 1/10Km?);
subsidies (tell the EU not a penny more until we see an audit);
passports (return to a distinctly British design; come to think of it, replace the Euro logo with a depiction of the Union Flag on the driving licence card as well);
Please add as desired.

[John Leonard]

Dave B (if you're still there). I am sceptical that you can find any major ' goal' of the Conservative Party that is not hindered quite considerably by the EU.

After 30 years or more of the EU, it has infected every part of our Government and our democratic system. It is as much to blame for the current failure of the Government as Labour is.

In regard to the Conservative approach to Europe, when and if they take over Government, I believe it is essential that they get a specific mandate from the electorate, and whilst once ratified it is pretty pointless having a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, there is no reason in the world why a localist democratic party (that the Cameron led Conservative Party claim to be) should not seek a referendum to obtain that mandate from the electorate to decide whether the electorate want further integration, retain the current post Lisbon status quo, or seek to repatriate powers.

Furthermore, the party have promised to implement changes which will require a referendum for any future transfers of power and to repatriate powers.

If the party leader does not deliver on these promises and on a EU mandate referendum then he will lose my support (and I'm sure a good proportion of other party members) and that cannot be a good thing for him or the party. In effect, if he failed to deliver he would be no better than Labour.

[Lindsay Jenkins]

Good to see robust views here in contrast to Lord Blackwell's woolly piece for the Sunday Telegraph.

Why is it so obvious that ‘ Clearly, the starting point should be that we want to stay part of the European family.’

Soft and cuddly language of that kind belies the fact that as others have indicated there is not a scintilla of democracy in the EU.

And what is it that the Conservative Party wishes to govern? After Lisbon Britain will just be a collection of regions and cities within the EU Empire. The 80 per cent of our laws, which now come from Brussels, will rise to 100 per cent.

So talk of waiting until later in a Conservative government to address the EU issue is frankly ridiculous.

[John Lilburne]

I have not voted Conservative since Masstricht and will not be so until so until I can believe you will do something about the EU. The Conservatives need to say in their manifesto that they will achieve a change in the UK-EU relationship to one based on trade rather than political union, will enter negotiations with our EU partners to that end, and will be prepared to initiate procedures to leave the EU unless those negotiations achieve results in a timely manner (say 18 months).

[Edward Huxley]

David Cameron couldn`t even get his MEPs to obey his order to leave the EPP, so what hope has he of renegotiating our membership of the EU?

[christina Speight]

There is absolutely no need to write off a referendum post-ratification. The question should be along the lines of “Do you approve of the previous government’s ratification of the Lisbon Treaty without the promised referendum?” I assume that this would produce a resounding “NO” vote.

Armed with this the new government would go to Brussels and say “We want to renegotiate our position vis-à-vis the EU. We can make the process easier legally by giving notice of withdrawal if that would make the process easier”

This would be done with the full consent of the people so would not be divisive at home. And please don’t use the silly argument that we can’t do two things at once. Any woman knows that’s perfectly possible.

The relationship we need is similar to that of switzerland which considers each piece of definitive EU legislation and decides whether or not to adopt it. Our Minister for Europe would be a very busy man but no longer a rubber-stamping 'YES-man' as at present.

[Alan Douglas]

The debate on what the Tories want in Europe is completely sterile while senior Conservatives like George Osborne and lovely Ken C go off to the Bilderburger conferences. The EU IS a Bilderburger project, orders will be issued, and we can be distracted by Punch and Judy politics until the project is complete.

Alan Douglas

[David Parker]

The idea that a referendum would be held if there was a proposal to transfer any more powers to Brussels is no more valid than the broken promise of a referendum this time. Not only is Lisbon a "self amending treaty" (meaning that it can assume additional powers whenever it wishes, merely by consent of the European Council, and without even consulting the Governments of the member states), but there are already so many "catch all" clauses that it can increase the scope of its existing competences without any amendments even being necessary.

As others have noted, the EU is an irresistable honey trap for the modern breed of professional politician, from town hall to Westminster, regardless of party.
Quite apart from virtually unlimited opportunities for unaccountable financial corruption, it offers privilege and real power over the lives other "citizens" to all its minions, from the highest to the most lowly. Whether one wishes to describe it as fascist, stalinist, or whatever, it is an evil organisation, whose ultimate aim is the creation of a single European government and this certainly will not be a benign or democratic one.

Ultimately, the EU may implode, but this may not be for some years and, if it does happen,it may not be a peaceful process. It is easy to say that we should get out now, but that is a process which, even if it was Conservative policy, would take several years to complete. The EU is like an octopus and its tentacles are already deeply entwined in countless aspects of the administration of this country.

Perhaps the best that we could hope for is a seriously eurosceptic Conservative cabinet and leader (certainly not the present one) who would make it a declared priority to plan an exit strategy from the EU, probably for implementation during a second term. They would then be able to commence negotiations (but still probably fruitless ones)for a serious renegotiation, just short of absolute withdrawal.

Sadly, what will probably happen is that Cameron will sweep to victory, gain a few meaningless token concessions from the EU and then continue to act as their regional Governor in London.

[ian mckenna]

oh, if only,

if only this site reflected the feelings of the whole of UK electorate.

[Ken Stevens]

ian mckenna | 16:16
"if only this site reflected the feelings of the whole of UK electorate."
No topic will reflect those of the whole electorate but this one seems to have quite a lot of support amongst them.

-Or did you mean "if only this site reflected the official policy of the Conservative party"?

[John Prendergast]

Norman Blackwell's piece while erudite, was weak.

Article 50 of the Madrid Treaty can be used to get out of Europe.

Britain's real problem witn Europe is however, our very own snivel service, yes the force that is crippling Britain by raising our overheads through the roof.

While they are doing this, our snivel service are gold plating every Brussels rule and using it to grind once free British down to some Fabian Farce. In other countries, their executive ignores all Brussels rules or apply them favourably, knowing Britain and Germany will pay.

The problem facing any British Government is what to do with millions of snivel servants and town hall and NHS drones!

[Former Tory]

Who cares? We've had this stonewalling forever and this is just more of the same.
I'll never vote Conservative again.

[Rod Sellers]

My nomination for most pathetic quote of the week

"We may have to say, well look, we're not happy with this situation, here are some of the powers we'd like to have back," he said, "But we can’t give you that referendum on the Lisbon Treaty because it's already been put in place across the rest of Europe."

David Cameron speaking at a meeting in Harlow

What a wimp ! Whatever happened to the principle of one Parliament not being able to bind its successors !

We must put our trust in Stuart Wheeler or God help us, the Irish ! Certainly not Cameron or Hague.

[Harry Randall]

Reform is achievable by using levers - OUR MONEY.

[Bishop Hill]

The courts should really be declaring all of these treaties as null and void, since they breach the fundamental principle of the British Constitution - that no parliament may bind its successors.

[Graham Checker]

No "If's", No "But's", No "When's"...

Cameron MUST deliver on EU Reform. It's the biggest single priority of his government.

Why?

EU Reform = Freedom to govern ourselves again so we CAN effectively deal with all the problems he, we, our party and the country want sorting out. Welfare, Education, Civil/Criminal Law, Immigration, Family policy, social policy... the EU interfer in them all, and will only interfer more as time goes by.

If Cameron fails to deliver - I promise him this. The backbench rebellions will make Maastrict look like a picnic.

[John Broughton]

Bishop Hill - I had a reply from John Redwood fairly recently (it may still be in his web site archive) and his view was that we lost "no governemnt can bind its successor" when Heath (I'd better not say what I think about him here for fear of being overwritten) took us in originally.

Just about the most depressing reply from someone committed to regaining our independance.

[James H]

After Cameron's Harlow speech there's no way in hell I'm voting Tory.

[michael mcgough]

James H;You and many many others I suspect.

[Malcolm Dunn]

So who will you vote for then James h? Some powerless irrelevant party?
I'm of the opinion that the present day Conservative Party is the most Eurosceptic it has ever been. If we win the election it will be almost impossible to avoid a big fight with Europe over the repatriation of powers. It can't come too soon.

[DonG]

If we continue as we have agreed towards ever closer union, how much more sovereignty do we have to give up before a future initiative to get UK free can be legally suppressed by Brussels as rebellion?

[Stuart Turner]

It is quite clear that all the benefits of our dealings with europe lie with EFTA and all the disadvantages come from the EU. I therefore propose that we should leave the EU and seek a Switzerland style deal which would allow us to maintain a successful economy without excessive EU regulation and to hold on to our soverienty.

[Denis Cooper]

People who want the EU, or some alternative European organisation, or indeed any international organisation, to be "democratic" are barking up the wrong tree.

There isn't yet a pan-European "demos", so there can't be a pan-European democracy. There's barely a single "demos" in the United Kingdom, let alone in the EU.

So my objection to the EU is not that it's "undemocratic" - which is certain to be the case in the absence of anything like a single "demos" - but that it's "anti-democratic" - destroying whatever democracy there was in the member states.

This is why I believe that the EU should be run on diplomacy, not democracy, and each sovereign state should have a veto on every proposal, not a vote or a certain number of votes.

Here is an example of where we will inevitably end up through careless talk of making the EU more "democratic":

"Mr Leinen said that he was in favour of holding EU-wide referendums in the future, which would enable all EU citizens to vote on treaties or on big ethical issues such as genetic engineering or genetically modified organisms. These would be based on the will of the majority of EU citizens."

For interest, here is a list of the present EU member states in descending order of population. As sovereign states all 27 have exactly equal legal status, but the 4 biggest added together have over 50% of the total EU population, while the 6 smallest added together have about 1% of the total EU population, and the 14 smallest added together have about 10%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualified_Majority_Voting

Population in millions on 1st January 2006

Germany 82m 16.7%
France 63m 12.8%
UK 60m 12.3%
Italy 59m 11.9%
Spain 44m 8.9%
Poland 38m 7.7%
Romania 22m 4.4%
Netherlands 16m 3.3%
Greece 11m 2.3%
Portugal 11m 2.1%
Belgium 11m 2.1%
Czech Rep. 10m 2.1%
Hungary 10m 2.0%
Sweden 9.0m 1.8%
Austria 8.3m 1.7%
Bulgaria 7.7m 1.6%
Denmark 5.4m 1.1%
Slovakia 5.4m 1.1%
Finland 5.3m 1.1%
Ireland 4.2m 0.9%
Lithuania 3.4m 0.7%
Latvia 2.3m 0.5%
Slovenia 2.0m 0.4%
Estonia 1.3m 0.3%
Cyprus 0.77m 0.2%
Luxembourg 0.46m 0.1%
Malta 0.40m 0.1%
EU 493m 100%

[Chris Gillibrand]

On present population trends, if Turkey is allowed in it will have 25 percent and rising of EU population by 2050. Make that ruled by Brussels, governed by Istanbul.

[Sam Tarran]

I think the concept of "renegotiation" within the EU went out the window some time ago, and even it didn't, the Lisbon Treaty has given it the final shove.

The purpose of the EU is very clear and very simple: a "political and monetary union". It is the will expressed by EU leaders for decades. But the delusion of our own politicians has spread down through the people like a disease. You can't negotiate with the EU. The Tories have danced around the issue for some time, but with the Lisbon Treaty now all but done with, we've reached a watershed.

To me, it's an issue of principal. Britain is a sovereign nation, and our monarch holds no allegiance to any foreign prince or pontiff. Therefore, the fact that EU law is held superior to our own is abhorrent and in complete contradiction with our stance as an independent country.

We have to ask ourselves a question: Do we leave, or do we commit? Do we go back to being a sovereign, independent Britain, or to we become a province of the new European state? It's simple, and the longer British politicians put off answering that question, our nation's voice will whither both in Europe and in the world.

[snegchui]

Looking just at last post, this I say: Soviet Union and also China open when they relinquish economic power because they are not having understanding really of link between economic and political power , despite being Marxists (initially). So stay out of Euro, you keep better influence over sovereign policy.

[David Lindsay]

Cameron is Michael Heseltine's Vicar on Earth, and is known to want Ken Clarke in his Cabinet.

Could Clarke sign up to the Tories EU policy? Of course. His views are in fact the Tories' EU policy, and always have been, even under Iain Duncan Smith. They are not the editorial position of the Mail and Telegraph newspapers, but that is not the same thing at all.

Clarke voted against The Referendum That Was Never Going To Happen Anyway, but that was only ever a distraction, with Cameron never saying that he would campaign for a No vote.

Clarke and fellow referendum "rebel" John Gummer were the only two people to hold Ministerial office continuously from 1979 to 1997. Neither has ever run the slightest risk of deselection, not even now that they are both really quite old by the standards of today's politicians.

Indeed, the only Tory MP ever to be deselected because of his views on the EU was Sir George Gardiner, removed on account of his Euroscepticism.

So not only is the Tory high command not even vaguely Eurosceptical (quite the reverse, in fact), but the same appears to be case of, such as there still is, the rank and file. Anecdotage is one thing, but there is absolutely no concrete evidence to the contrary.

[ChrisD]

"oh, if only,

if only this site reflected the feelings of the whole of UK electorate."

Ian McKenna, I have some sympathy with that sentiment if others do not. If a Conservative government is elected at the next GE, it will not be because of the party's Eurosceptic stance on the EU, just as Blair won 3 election as very much a Europhile when his voters were not.

And those that see a Conservative government simple as a vehicle to deliver much loser ties with the EU should remember that at the end of the day, the views of all those people who vote Conservative at the next GE are as valuable and relevant to the debate as anyone of us who has been a member of the party for donkey's years.

The row over Europe was the final nail in the coffin of the last Conservative government, and those Eurosceptic rebels who voted with the then Labour opposition must be proud of the way their comrades voted to ignore their own manifesto promise to offer a referendum on Europe!
You see at the end of the day when I read through the depressing diatribe of cr*p and insults from the UKIPPERS on here, I remember just how much they have shot their own cause in the foot and in part helped keep this dishonourable Labour government in power.
What will happen if nothing can be done about the Lisbon Treaty two years from now, or if we are unable to form a credible group outside the EPP?
Are we then going to attack our own government and aid the early return of a Labour government with all the tax, loss of liberties and return to the same policies which have hasten the breakdown of our families and the very communities we live in?
Get real, move on and accept that we have to win the arguments about the day to day things we manage before we can try and change our role in Europe.
As someone said on PB.com, the EU is like catnip to some Tories and others, it makes them behave in an almost irrational way and skews the whole debate.

[Stuart Coster]

Hoping for change later in a first term or in a second term will simply pan out the same way as Blair's euro ambitions.

Change will never happen, unless it happens early, and unless mandated by a referendum.

Those who wish to see change on this issue allow the party to slide out of their current and highly popular Lisbon referendum pledge at their peril.

There is clearly nothing wrong in principle with a retrospective referendum. The only other referendum we have ever had on the EU issue was a retrospective one. So why should such a vote now be labelled "nearly impossible" when it is both perfectly possible in principle, and responding to a 'No' vote would in practice entail exactly the same process as would retrieving any other specific 'already in place' power transfer.

Delivering a retrospective vote on Lisbon clearly could not stop that treaty. But it could provide a mandate for renegotiation to reverse its implications.

The existing "cast iron guarantee" (Cameron's words) also has strong political advantages, being a clear position for the public with an already existing strong body of support extending across party boundaries.

Reversing Lisbon is both eminently possible and politically by far the most favourable policy.

The advantages of maintaining the Lisbon pledge are so glaring I fear that those in the leadership who are moving against it in reality seek instead an unacceptable 'do nothing' position. That cannot be allowed to happen.

In Lord Blackwell's case, he is heading to the other extreme, and being over-ambitious in the policy changes he hopes to see instead.

What if the party is allowed to slide out of its current pledge now, but (as is highly likely) a more ambitious alternative like Lord Blackwell envisages never materialises in two years time?

Where will eurosceptics be then?

Stuffed. That's where.

[Tapestry]

At this point Cameron sees political advantage in not challenging the power of Brussels. But what if Labour implode and reinvent themselves as a eurosceptic, democratic, localist, tax-reducing party?

[T. J. K. Budgie-Smytherson-Smythe]

Thanks be to God that the readers of Conservative Home have rumbled the Prussian nationalists in Brussels.

The clouds of darkness are again descending upon this once proud continent:

- A Nazi monetary policy is being run from Frankfurt (hat tip, Jim McConolague)

- A sinister brigade of European stromtroopers modelled on the SS Franconia Division is being created by the French. Apparently all members will have to pledge their lives to Nicolas Sarkozy and will have their blood group tattooed beneath their right armpits (hat tip, Murdoch publications)

- The German quest for lebensraum has seen them march the EU ever deeper into the wilds of the East. It cannot be long before the heir of Napoloeon, little Nicolas Sarkozy, is leading a band of French and Prussians on Moscow once more

- Angela Merkel, the spawn of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun, now sits at the Reichschancellery in Berlin.

Conservative Home readers, we must resist this menace at all costs! I and my chums - Bongo, Smithers, Rupes, and Trombone - will be conducting military exercises in the Kent countryside around Tunbridge Wells on the weekend of 21/22 June.

I urge all Conservative Home readers to join us in Tunbridge Wells so that when the time comes - as it soon will - we plucky band of conservative resisters can fight them on the beaches and on the landing grounds, in the fields and in the streets.

(Bring thermos flasks and sandwiches).

We shall never surrender!

[Dale]

"oh, if only,

if only this site reflected the feelings of the whole of UK electorate."

Indeed, but I suppose we'll all have to settle for the 3 quarters of the electorate thatthis poll shows share the view on europe that conome and its readers have.

[Ken Stevens]

Tapestry
"But what if Labour implode and reinvent themselves as a eurosceptic, democratic, localist, tax-reducing party?"

Then I shall vote Labour, as it would be clear as to what it's overall philosophy was.

I can't tell with the Tories. One moment they're going to hold a referendum on Lisbon, then it's ooerr, no, nothing we could actually do by then. One moment it's maintain Labour spending level, then it's same service level at cheaper cost, then it's share proceeds of growth. Now you're green, now you're not. Etc, etc.

I vote for my country, i.e. the party that offers the closest match to its best interests. The name of such party hardly matters, if its personalities & policies resonate, as it isn't cloth hats v top hats anymore.

At the moment , it is not a case amongst the three main parties about which is best but which is least worst. That is why the swivel-eyed amongst us will "waste" our votes on small parties with no hope of election, nor often of retaining deposit. Principles aren't bought by mainstream political opiates.

Labour has time for such an implosion and renewal before the next election, so beware!
--- especially if Frank Field is prominent in the new hierarchy.

[James H]

Malcolm Dunn asks who I'll vote for if I don't vote Tory at the next election, following the old adage that getting Labour out should be everyones top priority, even if it means replacing them with virtual clones.

Our top priority should be getting Labour out and replacing them with a pro-British, free-market, euro-dissident, socially conservative party. As Ken Stevens writes, it is not obvious that Cameron's Tories truly fulfill any of these criteria. They are philosophically muddled, and cannot make their minds up who they are or what they believe.

"Pro-British"? Given Cameron's obvious desire not to rock the EU boat, I think not. "Free-market"? More so than Labour or the Lib Dims, but then that isn't saying much. Moreover this is heavily qualified by their desire to maintain Labour's ridiculous levels of public expenditure, and the cost of EU regulation (that the Tories were determined to ignore in their recent report on reducing the cost of regulation). And what happens when, from 2009 onwards, the European Commission starts releasing another avalanche of directives and regulations relating to its newly acquired powers under the Lisbon Treaty? I somehow doubt that many of these new Commission measures would be pleasing to British free-marketers.

"Socially conservative"? Coming from a party whose leader endorses quotas for women in his parliamentary party? The leader who wants us all to hug hoodies?

These issues are all interconnected, and prove that Cameron's Tories are by and large only interested in power for powers sake. They will not do anything useful with that power

[Andrew Smith]

Who in their right mind would buy a second hand EU treaty from the Conservatives? They had decades in office and all they did was sign up to more control by the EU. We should not be surprised because it was the Conservatives who originally committed to "Ever Closer Union".

The tenor of suggestions such as those in the Article is that the Tories secretly want out and are just pretending to love the EU. A closer approximation is to say they are in favour although some of them cannot quite remember why.

To trust a party at one election would be taking too much on trust when they have been so unreliable on the EU over such a long period. But to seek 2 wins for these Europhiles would be totally unaceptable. We know what they would do - wring hands, posture a bit, deny the EU controls almost every policy agenda all until it becomes too late to exercise democratic choice to leave.

The Conservative Party is an anger sink on this issue and it would be better for honest public debate in Britain if they would get out of the way. The alternative to public debate will eventually be a non-democratic solution, but next time from those who want to regain Independence and Democracy. We will be the freedom fighters of the 21st Centruy and I confidently look forward to the automatic endorsement of our position from the left wing press just as they endorsed every odd-ball freedom campaign in the 20th Century.

[Malcolm Dunn]

You ddn't answer my question though James. If you want to get Labour out who would you replace them with?

[Agincourt]

If the EU refuses to negotiate with Britain about our wishes to alter Britain's status within the EU, then Britain should automatically cut off our huge regular payments into EU coffers. Incidentally, A new Tory government should immediately on entering office in Britain reduce the UK's regular contributions to the EU to once again reflect Mrs Thatcher's hard-won rebate, which Blair & Brown have given away so cheaply.

If holding back on our subsriptions to the EU fails to persuade the EU to wise up, & give Britain the deal its citizens want, then Britain should threaten to withdraw fully to the EEA, which we are already members of, & have an inalienable right to membership of it - alongside prosperous Norway & Iceland.

If the EU tries to punish us in some way, eg imposing tariffs on us, we should immediately reciprocate against the EU, aiming particularly at those countries which are leading the EU charge against us, but avoiding alienating those who are shoing genuine sympathy. As EEA-only members, we will still have to pay into the EU for easy access to EU markets, but much less than at present, & would have to abide by the EU's regulations when exporting to the EU. But we would be free to do whatever we liked within our own country & also in our trading relations with non-EU members - a great change & improvement on our current situation as EU members. Sounds great to me. I can't wait for it happen.

If the Tories will make this happen, they've got my vote. But if they won't, then I'll vote for someone else. A fair deal, wouldn't you say?

[T. J. K. Budgie-Smytherson-Smythe]

Sod all that, Agincourt. Let's just invade Normandy!

[James H]

Malcolm, I wouldn't bother replacing Labour. Not until there's something worth replacing them with. I will vote UKIP, not because I think they are a plausible government (far from it) but as a protest vote.

If the Tories in their present form win the next election, it guarantees at least another decade of "liberal" New Labour-style government. Once under Cameron, then again under the next Labour government (probably with David Miliband in charge - a horrific thought) when the media get bored with the Tories in power and spit them out like a used chew toy.

[ross warren]

I know Labour isn't willing to give the people a say on The Lisbon treaty because they fear it would turn into a referendum on Europe in general.When we voted yes, it was to join the then EEC a community a trading partners there was of course no mention of plans for a single currency, or any sort of political union. In retrospect we were conned but what can we now do about it ? I am confused what is the Parties policy on Europe ? Do we even have a policy or are we keeping quite because we fear the kind of disharmony that Europe has meant for us in the past. As we approach the next general election people are going to want to know what we intend to do. Are we going to pull out of the Lisbon agreement ? If it has already been ratified could we pull out ?
Are we going to renegotiate our membership ?
What exactly is our policy ?

[Marian]

James H makes a good point

"when the media get bored with the Tories in power and spit them out like a used chew toy."

We really need to sort the press in this country out. As it is it sets the agenda in politics which is quite wrong. I think it essential that we get a grip on the shits in fleet street. Firstly we need a decent set of privacy laws and if necessary gagging orders.

[Clifford Goodman]

It would be better to withdraw from the EU and just re-negotiate our trade agreement,
Judging by past performance there does not appear to be anyone in the three major political parties with the necessary grey matter to negotiate any further than that, until now they have been outsmarted at every twist and turn by the Germans and the French.

[Adam Pols]

We’re on a fast moving train to a socialist super state and there’s no chance of getting off. Lisbon Treaty, Euro, Regional Assemblies, United States of Europe. No referenda at any stage, of course. I understand that Angela Merkel thinks the EU is far too Anglo Saxon in its workings. Perhaps she is nostalgic for her time in East Germany.

We’re doomed because anyone with any passing interest in U.S. politics will be aware that it is American policy to have the UK at the heart of Europe (along with Turkey, read Obama’s policy on Europe on his website). We are to be in the centre of the EU to bat for America; outside the EU we are “no more importance than Australia”.

We are also doomed because of the economic crisis and our huge debt (we may still have to go the IMF) we have reduced influence and are, in fact, very vulnerable to external pressure at present.

Finally we’re doomed because of past experiences and current thinking in the Tory Party. There are those Euro-splits in the party and the rejection by the public of Tory Euro navel gazing (I expect William Hague still has nightmares over his attempt to pursue a Eurosceptic path). If you were a top Tory and had finally got your hands on the reins of power after years of impotence would you want to spend it fighting to put your policies into action and in firefighting the UKs economic problems? OR would you spend your time battling an almost impossible task to win back some power from the EU thereby angering the US and all your EU colleagues?

Ken Clarke’s arrival on the scene is a sign. We’re doomed comrades, greetings President Blair.