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Serves him right - he's pushed all this to the limit and I think people are fed up with him (though not here of course!)

I can't think of a worse example of how the EU/EPP operate.
I thought I'd lost the ability to be shocked by them!
Good on Dan.

Dan tells the truth and the nazis prove his point.

Dan keep telling the truth and we may yet be saved from enslavement by the nazis in Brussels.

Sally - you cannot be serious!

Well done Dan ! You and Roger Helmer have done a good job exposing how corrupt the EU really is. It amazing that somebody can be expelled from a group for calling for a vote to be made in accordance with the rules! Another illustration , if one were needed, that Parliamentary Democray is incompatible with EU membership.

Oh believe me, Sam I am!

I am no more in favour of "dictatorships" than anyone else - but I think some of the behaviour that has gone on recently has been nothing short of infantile and it is my belief that there is more than one way of skinning a cat!
Adult behaviour would be taken more seriously.

But Pottering is a Nazi. If I were Daniel, I'd be careful on or about June 30th.

As it is, the reneging by the EPP on the expulsion of a member being a breach of contract means that contract is null and void. Therefore, all Conservative MEPs should walk out this afternoon

Well done Dan. Good to see a man sticking to his principles and fighting aginst the way this bunch operate.

But the EU pork barrel is not a very serious place. It is full of self important people who know that rather than serving their constituents, a party list system means that they only have to keep in with the power brokers in their party.

IMHO well don to Dan for standing up to the Nazis and to the people who want him to "conform"

Sally - Well they sure took the adult behaviour of voting against their pet project very seriously, and blatantly disregarded it!

This is very unfortunate as the tragedy is that our Centre Right sister parties in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia seem intent on remaining with the EPP rather than having the courage to join up with us to pursue a vision of a deregulated,decentralised EU focussing on issues such as trade, the environment and global development. Why all these parties appear intent in following the German CDU (who dominate the leadership of the EPP)into "ever closer Union" is beyond me.

I applaud Daniel's courage but sitting alone and isolated or with extremists is not a comfortable thought.

"but I think some of the behaviour that has gone on recently has been nothing short of infantile "

But when protest has been almost completely censored its some of these gestures which act as a thorn in the side of the establishment, irritating them, and in the response elicited you get a true picture of the situation. Here we see the EU establishment throwing its toys out of its pram, in a fit of rage and vindictiveness, which exposes them and their project for what it is, an anti democratic, authoritarian, totalitarian project which brooks no opposition.

Well done Dan, I hope the Conservative party stands by you!

Dan is well rid of the constraints of the Eurofanatic EPP. Like Roger Helmer, he will continue to flourish without the dead hand of Pottering and his cronies. I suspect other Conservative MEPs will be keen to join him.

Well done Mr Hannan. We need another Cromwell
to sort out our own and the European parliament. Failing him, another Maggie would
do the job.

Have none of the people commenting on this thread heard of Godwin's Law? You're just undermining your own case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Well done to Daniel for taking a stand and I call upon all our MEPs to do likewise. If the EPP would rather stand for corruption than for democracy than it shouldn't be touched with a bargepole.

Sally

"Serve him right?"

Elected by British Voters to speak on their behalf and silenced by a tinpot Kraut Gauleiter.

You don't have to be Eurosceptic to see that the EU is an intolerant, power mad centralising and corrupt bureaucratic nightmare where free speech is under assault.

Your patronising attitude to those who disagree with you is a typical example of the reason this issue is so poisonous in our party.

Shame on you

Anyone who compares the EU parliament with Nazi Germany is an idiot.

If this man wants a referendum he should get back to the UK and lobby for one. The EU Parliament doesn't have that power - only nation states do. That's how the EU works. He's taking the salary and expenses and holding up the process of the parliament in which he does not believe. Why isn't he in UKIP?

Well done Dan indeed. First Roger Helmer and now you.

The man out on a limb is not Dan but David Cameron (and his 'yes men'). How much more of this nonsense is he going to put up with while humming and hawing about alliances with 'sister parties' in Europe.

Why is the Conservative Party supporting the EU at all? We can all see what the EU is.

Now let's get our precious freedom back - and keep our money into the bargain.

The EU is an intrinsically undemocratic illegitimate institution. It amazes me how anyone with any knowlege of British and European history can defend it. The British public only agreed to it because it was sold to them under false pretences as a simple free trade area and they were desparate to save the sick man of Europe which consecutive Tory and Labour governments had made us.

"He's taking the salary and expenses and holding up the process of the parliament in which he does not believe."

What's wrong with that, Passing leftie? Are you advocating a Sinn Fein approach to the European Parliament?

What would the Conservatives lose by pulling out of the EPP now if they move against Hannan?

What's wrong with that, Passing leftie? Are you advocating a Sinn Fein approach to the European Parliament?

I'm suggesting that if he wants to campaign for a referendum, he should do it where the government actually has the power to make that decision.

The EU Parliament has little power at the moment, and it certainly can't force a referendum on nation states. It doesn't have the power to abolish or replace itself.

What he is doing is closer to the Sinn Fein approach than my suggestion.

passing leftie, I'm sure Dan is regularly in the UK campaigning for a referendum as all our MEP's should be (Roger Helmer certainly is in the East Mids), and I have no problem with him taking the salary and expenses if he's using it to show up what a sham the European Parliament is.

As for being in UKIP, the man's a Conservative and fighting for Conservative principles. I'm just thankful we have people like him and Roger Helmer fighting our corner in Europe.

Well done 'Desperate Dan' - and desperation is the only way to feel about the Cancer that is the EU and a cancer that will eventually destroy European Co-operation - if we can wait that long.

Is Sally Roberts a real person ? - if so a complete list of her other ways of 'skinning this cat'would be a facinating read !!

Sally Roberts - You didn't read in full what he wrote did you?

Good news indeed! But why are there troglodites like Christopher Beazley IN the Tory party still? You can tell him what you think of him on :- christopher.beazley@europarl.europa.eu. I have!

Not being in the EPP actually allows him more time to speak - not less as Helmer has shown.

Cameron was silly not to have kept his prom ise when he became leader and scotched this vicious and undemocratic German, Poettering. Look at the trouble he would have avoided.


Why is anyone in the least bit surprised. Whilst aknowledging Tim's point about Godwin's Law, it is fair to point out that freedom in the institutions of the EU only extends to those supporting the glorious revolution. Anti-revolutionaries are not tolerated. Those who make perfectly valid criticisms are seen as saboteurs.

In true marxist form, a man such as Dan Hannan who questions the very idea of EU, is so suspect that he is irrelevant. Leaving the EPP will be great, but nothing will really be achieved until we leave this sorry chapter of Kow Towing to unaccountable, illiberal, democracy hating Eurocrats.

Well done Dan. Two down, twenty-five to go!

Dan Hannan will become in time our martyr to the tyranny and despotism that is the EU and its Parliament.

Passing Leftie,
That is, of course,exactly how the EU(by which I assume you mean the European Parliament) works!
Nasty things Referendums, you can't always be certain of getting the answer you want. But don't worry, if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, the nation states wont be allowed referendums either; nor, for that matter, will national parliaments be able to vote upon future EU treaty amendments, however draconian.
Sally Roberts,
I am sure that you are an animal lover, really, but just how else would you propose to skin this particular cat?

Nasty things Referendums, you can't always be certain of getting the answer you want. But don't worry, if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, the nation states wont be allowed referendums either; nor, for that matter, will national parliaments be able to vote upon future EU treaty amendments, however draconian.

Do point me at the clause in the treaty which states these positions.

Dan is a bright and very articulate politician; he is a credit to our party.

I hope soon that Dan and Roger will be joined by other sound Tory MEPs and that soon the whole party will be out of the EPP-ED.

As for the behavior of the likes of Christopher Beazley, I hope the Chief Whip and leader in Brussels give him a thorough dressing down as it is the least he deserves!

The problem is not with the principle of Tories withdrawing from the EPP. The problem is with Camerloon putting it into practise - "in months, not years" - his words!

There are two inaccuracies in your report and especially its title: “Dan Hannan to be kicked out of the EPP for highlighting despotism in the European Parliament”

1) You wrote EPP but that is incorrect. Dan and the rest of the Conservative MEPs are actually members of the EPP-ED (European People’s Party - European Democrats) coalition in the European Parliament.

However, they are not members of the Europhile EPP half of the EPP/ED coalition - but rather of the Eurosceptic ED half of the EPP/ED coalition

Dan and his ilk will never admit to this because it would take the wind out of the sails of their call for the Conservatives to take the ED out of its coalition with the EPP.

To find out more about the ED agenda, check out their website:
http://www.epp-ed.org/europeandemocrats/

You will notice that it says that “The ED is expressly committed to democracy, individual liberty, the rule of law, national sovereignty, free enterprise, minimal regulation, low taxation, private ownership, respect and security for every individual and a strong transatlantic alliance.”

One would therefore have thought Dan and co. would be quite happy with this and be quite happy for the ED to remain in coalition with the EPP (given the fact that in practice the British Conservatives and the rest of the ED actually vote the same way as the EPP in the vast majority of votes in the EP). Apparently, however, Dan prefers to split the Right in the European Parliament - despite the fact that he knows that the real winners from such a split will be the Socialists and Liberals. It all begins to smack of Labour in the early 1980s. Dan seems to be the Conservatives’ answer to Derek Hatton (interesting coincidence their sharing the same initials …) and the Militant Tendency.

2) M. Daul (head of the EPP/ED did indeed say that he would move to have Dan expelled from the EPP/ED. However, he did not do so because Dan had been ‘highlighting despotism in the European Parliament’ (as your report suggests) - but rather because (as your report completely omits to mention), he insulted Hans-Gert Pöttering by comparing his proposal with the 1933 Ermächtigungsgesetz.

To see how insulting this is, look no further than Dan Hannan’s own blog:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/danielhannan/jan08/despotisminparliament.htm

There Dan himself concedes that such a comparison is indeed offensive:

“I am almost tempted to compare it to the Nazi Ermächtigungsgesetz – the Enabling Act of 1933 which allowed Hitler to override parliament and the constitution. But I won’t because a) it would be disproportionate and b) it would be terrifically rude to Hans-Gert, who lost his father in the war and who, for all that he is behaving appallingly on this occasion, is a decent man and a democrat.”

So, if Dan is to be expelled from the EPP/ED, it is because of his own spectacular lack of judgement and courtesy. There really is no need for this sort of abuse. It would be good for Dan if he was to follow the Golden Rule - do unto others that which you would wish them to do unto you.

I was watching the EP online when this incident took place. Dan Hannan and Nigel Farage were working so hand in glove on this point that it makes me wonder (yet again) why Dan does not simply leave the Conservative party and join UKIP (presumably he wants to be a Westminster MP one day ?)

philip_porter25@hotmail.com


"He's taking the salary and expenses and holding up the process of the parliament in which he does not believe."

That is what his voters want him to do.

This is excellent news, though. It demonstrates quite clearly that we have nothing in common with the leaders of the EPP.

Of course Sally Roberts is serious, Sam - but then Sally Roberts is not a serious person. She is a joke. She thinks that everyone who is not a 'genuine' Conservative in her eyes should just shut up and go away.

As for Dan, this shows what happens if you stand up for what you believe in the supposedly 'democratic' EU.

Ich kann in dieser Stunde dem deutschen Volke die größte Vollzugsmeldung meines Lebens abstatten: Als Führer und Kanzler der deutschen Nation und des Reichs melde ich vor der Geschichte nunmehr den Eintritt meiner Heimat in das Deutsche Reich!


Philip Porter, you haven't actually made a very strong case against what Hannan is saying.


Given that Hannan was comfortably reselected, it would appear that the Conservative Party as a whole shares his sentiments.

Like Sally, I think Hannan deserved it. He was not sent to the European Parliament to play childish games designed to appeal to the hard-right. Sensible MEPs should up their campaign to stay with our friends in the EPP. Should we align ourselves to fascists, e.g. Poland’s L&J Party, I for one will have to think twice before voting, let alone campaigning, for the Tory Party.

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN.

PERSONAL ABUSE OVERWRITTEN.

Brilliant contribution, Philip Porter.


Justin,

It would appear that his Regional Selection Committee disagree with you.

There is still a very nasty element operating in our party, Sean.

Philip, thanks for your reasoned comments.

I don't accept your points however. It is perhaps more specific to say EPP-ED but in reality you know that doesn't mean a great deal. People of all persuasions use the EPP as shorthand, Caroline Jackson did on this website when arguing against leaving it, for example.

Regarding Daul's reason for kicking Dan out... It was not simply because of talking about "Ermächtigungsgesetz" - which as you must know is just the German phrase for the 1933 Enabling Act that I referred to!

Dan has just given his account of the episode on his blog:

I made a point of order to protest. An electoral majority, I said, could not over-rule a constitution. Majority or no, the Parliament still had to follow its own rule book. To do otherwise would be to replace the rule of law with arbitrary government.
I repeated the point I made in this blog last week: that the 1933 Enabling Act had had a technical majority in the Reichstag, but that it opened the door to unconstitutional rule. Whatever else MEPs are, they are not Nazis: many of them have proud records of fighting totalitarianism throughout the world. That is why it was so disappointing to see them resorting to this appalling measure in order to silence dissent.

As I sat down, the EPP leader, Joseph Daul, sprang to his feet and announced that he wanted me thrown out of the group. He had lost patience with my filibustering, he said. Enough was enough.

I spoke to him afterwards. I hoped, I said, that he wasn’t taking any of this personally. But I understood why he wanted to exclude me. There was, I suggested, an ideological difference between us. “Not a difference, an incompatibility”, he snapped, adding: “I don’t are if you call for a referendum in the United Kingdom. But I won’t have you doing it from the floor of the European Parliament as a member of my Group.”

Fair enough. It is, as I have always maintained, better for us to be friendly neighbours to the EPP than grudging tenants.

I'd rather some of the earlier commenters didn't use the word Nazi in the way they did, but to compare a policy to one instituted by Nazis is not offensive in itself, it could maybe be willfully interpreted as such but no reasoned person would say that Dan was equating anyone with Nazis as people.

I appreciate some people may (naively IMO) believe in world government. I similarly understand others (again naively IMO) believe in a fully unified Europe (perhaps as a first step to world government). The majority of us want neither. As such we must be grateful for the likes of Mr Hannan and all others who are prepared to speak out against the EU and its undemocratic and illiberal project.

Well done to Dan for speaking out. I'm sure he won't be losing any sleep about the federasts' response.

This merely unlines the fact that Britain has no influence whatsoever on the direction of the EU leviathan.

Better Off Out.

COMMENT OVERWRITTEN.

Justin, you think it is OK for Dan to be expelled. Some would say it is within the rules of the party to expel a party chairman for suggesting they may vote for another party?

Neither sounds too democratic does it?

Justin, Dan Hannan is not a nasty person. He is an honest and open politician who says what he thinks. Conservative Party members in the South East of England know very well what he believes in and how he conducts himself in the European Parliament and they are more than happy to select and re-select him as one of their candidates on three separate occasions.

Certain people on this site may disagree with Dan on the issue of our membership of the EPP-ED and may disagree with the tactics he chooses to deploy in fighting our membership of the EPP-ED, but does that make him a nasty person? Of course not.

Dan has retained the Conservative Whip in the European Parliament and has the public support of the Chief Whip in Brussels.

People from all sides need to grow up and not be so easily upset. A Conservative MEP has today been thrown out of the EPP-ED when he actually has done nothing wrong we should all be united in support of him not fighting amoungst ourselves.

Should we align ourselves to fascists, e.g. Poland’s L&J Party

Justin. I understand that you personally find some of their rhetoric offensive. Believe me, most of the rest of us do as well. However, the reality of politics means that we have a choice of two types of partner.

1) Those whose domestic policies we may disagree with, but with whom we share a sceptical view of the EU.
2) The mainstream parties, who have never seen an EU idea they didn't like.

Given that in the EP only views on the EU are relevant, the second choice is a completely pointless one.

Finally, which is more facist, Homophobia or a belief that the rulers are above the law? For me the rule of law is not only more important, but is also the only protection that we all have against the predations of those more powerful than us. Whoever, or whatever we are.

That's harsh Chris, I can't believe her position on this and would like a reasoned explanation of it but Sally often shows generosity of spirit in her comments.

She is both very europhile and very loyal to the party, which means that more often than not she is arguing against those who don't see her as a "genuine" conservative who should therefore shut up and go away.

Dan should have compared the overriding of Parliamentary debate to Hitler's Enabling Acts.

Because he has demonstrated quite clearly that the EU parliament is a sham, which observes no rules .

Hitler wished to destroy Europe's democracies through warfare.

The EU has achieved exactly that but without the warfare (so far), as well as cutting Europe off from the world. Britain sadly this time is locked inside this latest version of Fortress Europa.

Dan Hannan has a great deal of courage, and will be one of the heroes of British resistance to the burgeoning totalitarian regime in Brussels.

Technical point - wasn't Helmer kicked out of the Conservative delegation, and not the E P P?

Hannan is being kicked out by Potty of the Entirely Pointless Potplants but not the Conservatives.

It's progress of a kind!

Response to Sean Fear ("Philip Porter, you haven't actually made a very strong case against what Hannan is saying"):

--> Sean, the point of my post was to highlight two errors in the main article, not to disagree with Dan.

I do disagree with him, actually, but don't know at this stage whether (or when) I can be bothered to put my counter-thoughts down in writing.

philip_porter25@hotmail.com


Fair enough.

I will concede that Sally does show generosity of spirit in most of her comments, Sam. True enough.

Response to Sean Fear ("Philip Porter, you haven't actually made a very strong case against what Hannan is saying"):

--> Sean, the point of my post was to highlight two errors in the main article, not to disagree with Dan.

I do disagree with him, actually, but don't know at this stage whether (or when) I can be bothered to put my counter-thoughts down in writing.

philip_porter25@hotmail.com

Well done, Dan Hannan. What is so striking about this episode is that the EPP should expell him for campaigning against the European Constitution / Lisbon Treaty. If Conservative MEPs are to be thrown out of the EPP while challenging the the European Constitution / Lisbon Treaty, then what are any of them doing as part of it in the first place?

Dan should have compared the overriding of Parliamentary debate to Hitler's Enabling Acts.

Because he has demonstrated quite clearly that the EU parliament is a sham, which observes no rules .

Hitler wished to destroy Europe's democracies through warfare.

The EU has achieved exactly that but without the warfare (so far), as well as cutting Europe off from the world. Britain sadly this time is locked inside this latest version of Fortress Europa.

Dan Hannan has a great deal of courage, and will be one of the heroes of British resistance to the burgeoning totalitarian regime in Brussels.

Technical point - wasn't Helmer kicked out of the Conservative delegation, and not the E P P?

Hannan is being kicked out by Potty of the Entirely Pointless Potplants but not the Conservatives.

It's progress of a kind!

One day some of you will realise just how totally off-putting this weird Euro-phobia has become. A total turn off to moderate voters.

The earlier comparison to Derek Hatton is spot on - egotistical fantasy land playground politics. The worrying thing is I believe the majority view in the Tory Party now is to pull out - most members, activists and MPs would if given the choice.

Out of interest, after Dan Hannan finished speaking in the Parliament this morning, a British MEP (probably Conservative) went up to him and told him (loudly but not quite shouting) that he could not say such things in the Parliament's chamber and several times told him to leave the chamber. This could be heard, I guess, because Dan's microphone was still on.

Does anyone know who that was?

I'll get a better idea tomorrow when the Parliament places the video recording of the incident on its website, but I was wondering whether anyone already knew?

Thank you, Serf, for that intelligent posting.

"Those whose domestic policies we may disagree with, but with whom we share a sceptical view of the EU" - in that case would you feel comfortable sitting with anti-Semites and racists?

What if a BNP candidate is elected in next year's elections and shares 'our' view of Europe - could we let him into the European Reform grouping?


And you're a real floating voter.

I'd rather some of the earlier commenters didn't use the word Nazi in the way they did, but to compare a policy to one instituted by Nazis is not offensive in itself, it could maybe be willfully interpreted as such but no reasoned person would say that Dan was equating anyone with Nazis as people.

As soon as you start bringing the Nazis in you have lost the argument. When ever anyone says anything is "like the Nazis" the whole debate is poisoned, because of what they represented, and despite his weasel words, he knew exactly the effect it would have.

As soon as you start comparing the European Parliament with the Nazis, even obliquely, you become as bad as the far left who seriously compare the loss of rights over ID cards with civil liberties in dictatorships.

It undermines the currency of language.

Justin, no, because we contest elections against the BNP.

"The worrying thing is I believe the majority view in the Tory Party now is to pull out - most members, activists and MPs would if given the choice."

Absolutely correct. And the sooner we do pull out the quicker the whole sorry experiment can be put behind us.

Good on Dan. But not to worry. When we get into power and control the Council and have more elected MEPs of Dan's ilk we can then say we want a looser relationship with the EU. How? At the next intergovernmental conference (that's when it can happen) we pull out of the Common Fisheries Policy, call for massive reform of CAP and, just by saying that we opt out of the Social Policy, this is not compatible with our current membership, along with the abondonment of the Human Rights Charter.

William Hague said he is in favour of re-negotiating our membership and that this Treaty was a failure to reform.

We must push for a renegotiation of the Treaties of Maastricht, Nice and Amsterdam and revert to a trading partner without political union.

That is what the people want and members should note when they get their postal ballots for the new list - only vote for those candidates who want looser ties.

Sean, we also contest elections against UKIP - this doesn't stop the likes of Hannan and Helmer doing their dirty work!

To be technical, Sean, we fight in N. Ireland where one of its MEPs sits with us in the EPP.

"Some would say it is within the rules of the party to expel a party chairman for suggesting they may vote for another party?"

Who said that?

"The worrying thing is I believe the majority view in the Tory Party now is to pull out - most members, activists and MPs would if given the choice."

Why is that point relevant? It is not up to conservative party members, activists or even (according to our parties policy) the mps choice. It is the choice of the british people.

BTW I'm sure that most people have little time for a person that calls themsef 'floating voter' or something similar because 99% of the time they are not what their name would imply. They are usually somebody with an agenda.

Atleast Justin Hinchcliffe and Sally Roberts, as unbearable as they are, use their names.

Justin, why do you think for example Roger Helmer is doing UKIPs dirty work? Roger was top of the East Midlands list and has been voted there again - so people in the East Midlands clearly rate him.

If he was doing UKIPs work why did the East Mids also return two UKIP politicians who stood on a wholly different platform.


I don't think we contest Euro elections in Northern Ireland (actually we may have done in 1989, but not since).

In answer to your point more generally though, I can no see no reason why we shouldn't be prepard to work with a rival party, in the EU Parliament, in order to achieve common ends. Thatis the logic of having elections by PR.

To be really technical Justin we haven't contested the Northern Ireland Euro seat since 1994. I believe we supported a "not for politics" independent at the last election. However since the province uses transferable vote there is no reason why we could not stand ourselves and let voters transfer the vote were we unsuccessful.

Dale: The public is not yet convinced, but I believe when the options are stark - the EU as it will be after the adoption of the Constitution"Trearty" or withdrawal, no silly talk of "renegotiate it to be a co-operation of states free trading" which is no longer viable, then I believe we will see support for withdrawal grow further.

But as for the party, doesn't it say a lot that we have few ideological soulmates in Europe who share our vision of it? How can we achieve conservative solutions for the benefit of this country in an entity where British conservatism does not thrive? The EPP is not a Conservative body, it is a Christian Democrat one.

Where would John Gilliland (Independent) have sat had he been elected then?

Passing Leftie,
Amongst many others, Articles 33.6, 48. 69 & 308, are all relevant to my comments.
These affect the ways in which the European Council may add additional powers or extend current definitions to its existing competences and even alter the need for certain votes to be unanimous to one of qualified majority voting. All of this can be achieved without the need for ratification by national Parliaments.

It is one of the most insidious aspects of this treaty that, instead of setting out clearly defined limits and safequards to EU powers, these new powers are now carefully concealed by making them dependent upon obscure terms in previous treaties, or upon subsidiary, seemingly unrelated, clauses in the new treaty; or by bringing them within the jurisdiction of the ECJ.

Needless to say, the obscurity of the Lisbon treaty was a deliberate (and successful) attempt to restrict informed debate or criticism about its contents and true implications. That alone, must surely be grounds for doubting the integrity or true intentions of its supporters.

Declaring an interest: Dan Hannan is a long-standing friend, we were members of the Campaign for an Independent Britain together at university.

That said, this news is outrageous. It shows how right David Cameron is to demand our MPs sign up to leaving the EPP. I doubt Dan will shed many tears that the happy moment has come early for him.

Europe needs urgent reform and this disgraceful incident only highlights it.

We need more people like Dan and Roger Helmer in the Conservative Party. Both fight for British historical traditions ethically, bravely and with commendable vigour.

BETTER OFF OUT is the only way to prevent our parliamentary democracy, criminal justice system and many other freedoms being sacrificed completely on the altar of the EU bureaucracy.

MPs=MEPs.

Although as soon as an election is called, there will be a new generation of reformist MPs in the Commons who will not sit still for this undemocratic nonsense! :)

Passing leftie: "When ever anyone says anything is "like the Nazis" the whole debate is poisoned"

Yes, which is exactly what your colleagues in Europe are trying to do!

They've sent out a press release about how:

"A British Tory Euro MP today sparked outrage in the European Parliament by comparing its German President, Hans-Gert Pöttering, to Adolf Hitler."

Labour MEP Richard Corbett in particular is gunning for Hannan by cynically misrepresenting what he said - see his blog today and his comments in the press release above.

That is nothing more than cynical spin on behalf of the uber-integrationists and socialists to try to overshadow the real story. Hannan couldn't have said more categorically that it wouldn't be right to compare Gert-Pottering to a Nazi, and he didn't!

The real story being overshadowed is that the EPP doesn't tolerate dissent.

This is very important to note.

It doesn't add up at all, even if you do blatantly misinterpret what he said about the Enabling Act he also pointed out that Gert-Pottering is "a decent man and a democrat". A decent, democratic Nazi?

What a wretched lot some of these EU politicians are.

Lousise,

This isn't meant to be a personal attack on you but how did you go from being a member of am Independent Britian to New Labour? Just curious, that's all.

Justin, you can date it from the decision to join the ERM.

I was in despair and felt that both major parties wanted to join us up to the Euro, so that the only difference between us was now managerial rather than ideological, and betwixt the two at the time (Back to Basics, infighting) I judged that Labour were the better of two Heathite Tory parties.

But before the usual suspects start up again, I was back before the '97 election and I canvassed for us in the '97 election.

You may not agree with the stance that Helmer and Hannan take (and I personally do) but I would argue with anyone who suggests they are not democrats (small d).

Hannan did not say Potty was a Nazi.

But Potty is going round saying that he did.

The EU parliament is incapable of debate.

It has instead found its niche in pantomime - with the humour taken out.

Oh yes he did.....etc

(The Germans never did understand irony)

The whole thing's completely potty.

Time to leave, David Cameron, doncha think.


and Justin... I agree with you on very many things, btw, as a moderniser - it's just that Europe is not one of them :)

They've sent out a press release about how:

"A British Tory Euro MP today sparked outrage in the European Parliament by comparing its German President, Hans-Gert Pöttering, to Adolf Hitler."

Labour MEP Richard Corbett in particular is gunning for Hannan by cynically misrepresenting what he said - see his blog today and his comments in the press release above.

Thank you for proving my point. This is exactly why you shouldn't mention the Nazis in an argument like this - in the context of German parliamentarin, too.

All people are then concerned about is Nazis. It's a stupid stupid thing to do, and this silliness is fruit of the poisoned tree.

"I for one will have to think twice before voting, let alone campaigning, for the Tory Party."

Going to continue your lifetime journey round every political Party in the UK who will have you then Justin?

There are some here - Philip Porter springs to mind - who cannot see that to oppose an undemocratic assembly and its actions with all the means available is the only honourable course of action for a committed democrat. Or is the word 'honour' now devalued?

And the insulting suggestion about him joining UKIP is contemptible and (were we to follow the practices of the EU federalist parliament) would result in whoever said suchlike being drummed off this list! I only have to say that to illustrate the enormity of the German `attitude to dissent exhibited b y Poettering. Why was HE not expelled from the parliament for undemocratic behaviour?

Frankly as far as I can see there should be now no further delay on Cameron's part in withdrawing all the Tory MEPs from the ghastly German dominated federalist EPP

I'd like to add my congratulations to Dan Hannan. I'd expect the British people will support him if they become aware of this episode despite the best efforts of Labour party spinners a la Passing Leftie.
Obviously embarassed yet again that Beazely is a Conservative. His demise can't come soon enough.
Rather sorry that once again I'm 100% in disagreement with Sally Roberts who as others have stated is a fair and generous person.


Wisely, from his point of view, Richard Corbett has no comment facility on his blog.

Amongst many others, Articles 33.6, 48. 69 & 308, are all relevant to my comments.

Mr Parker,

Thank you for going to the trouble of digging these clauses out. I'll take a look. Everything I've seen points to an explicit increase in the powers of national parliaments, a reduction in the powers of the commission and a more formal approach to subsidarity.

I for one am saddened that we are all getting so hot under the collar over a story that few people will notice. I hardly think the Dog and Duck will be resounding to different arguments over this. In terms of the election it matters to the least important voter and is least important to the voters that matter!


Malcolm, sensibly, Christopher Beazley has not sought reselection.

Really Passing Leftie? Please tell us exactly where powers of national Parliaments have been increased.

To Deputy Editor:
“It is perhaps more specific to say EPP-ED but in reality you know that doesn't mean a great deal.”
1) It is more specific. There’s no ‘perhaps’ about it. In fact, it’s not just more specific; it’s correct. The Conservatives are not members of the EPP.
2) I do agree with you that it is shorthand, but it is sloppy and it obscures the vital point that the Conservatives are already in a separate grouping called the ED which has a platform that is all that they could desire. There is therefore no need for them to leave the EPP/ED coalition. The status quo already gives the Conservatives everything they want for - the chance to associate themselves (and coordinate) with the rest of the European mainstream right on the important legislative votes - whilst at the same time dissociating themselves from the more federalist elements in the EPP (who are in any case rapidly dying out).

To Deputy Editor:
“I'd rather some of the earlier commenters didn't use the word Nazi in the way they did, but to compare a policy to one instituted by Nazis is not offensive in itself, it could maybe be willfully interpreted as such but no reasoned person would say that Dan was equating anyone with Nazis as people.”
1) Let’s leave the final word on this to Dan himself (in his blog): “I am almost tempted to compare it to the Nazi Ermächtigungsgesetz – the Enabling Act of 1933 which allowed Hitler to override parliament and the constitution. But I won’t because a) it would be disproportionate and b) it would be terrifically rude to Hans-Gert, who lost his father in the war and who, for all that he is behaving appallingly on this occasion, is a decent man and a democrat.”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politics/danielhannan/jan08/despotisminparliament.htm

2) I think we would all (including Dan) agree that it would have been far better if he had not used the 1933 reference this morning. He himself had doubts about it in his blog last week and I think he should have listened to them.

3) In the interests of impartiality, let’s also remember that Dan likes to hint at comparisons with the Soviet Union as well as Nazi Germany:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/08/24/do2405.xml

“Watching Mr Brown, in his dark suit and matching expression, I was reminded of a Brezhnev-era apparatchik, woodenly trotting out the official line without expecting to convince anyone.
“I can already hear the Euro-enthusiasts choking on their Sancerre. HOW DARE HANNAN COMPARE THE EU TO THE SOVIET BLOC? On one level, of course, such a comparison would be ridiculous. Whatever its failings, the EU remains an association of parliamentary democracies. It doesn't take away our passports or throw us into gulags.
“But THE EU DOES HAVE ONE CHARACTERISTIC IN COMMON WITH TOTALITARIAN SYSTEMS: it holds its ruling dogma - ever-closer union - to be too important to be subjected to the ballot box. When the Danes voted "No" to Maastricht, when the Irish voted "No" to Nice, when the French and Dutch voted "No" to the constitution, the response in Brussels was the same: to swat the results aside and carry on regardless.
“Many Euro-federalists cling to a version of what Engels called "false consciousness": the belief that the people cannot be trusted to see their true interests. As Tony Blair put it: "The British people are sensible enough to know that, even if they have a certain prejudice about Europe, they don't expect their government necessarily to share it or act upon it."
“But eventually, whether in the old Soviet bloc or in the EVROPEISKI SOYUZIT it becomes clear that, however long you give them to come round, however much you spend on propaganda campaigns, the people - or at least the majority of the people - will never sign up to the official ideology.”

4) I think Dan has been steering rather too close to the wind for a while now. It’s about time he drew back a little. Apart from anything else, he is danger of drowning out his own message.

DAN HANNAN IS NOT TELLING US THE WHOLE TRUTH IN HIS BLOG OF THIS AFTERNOON. HE STATES THAT:
“At worst, our protest would occasionally keep MEPs from their lunch for another 20 minutes. But even this was intolerable to the authorities. In plain violation of their own rules of procedure, they demanded — and, this morning, were disgracefully granted — the right arbitrarily to set aside the rules as they sought fit.”
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/torydiary/2008/01/dan-hannan-to-b.html?cid=99366230#comment-99366230

 IN FACT, THE PARLIAMENTARY AUTHORITIES COMPLIED IN FULL WITH RULE 202 OF THE PARLIAMENT’S RULES OF PROCEDURE:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+RULES-EP+20071128+RULE-202+DOC+XML+V0//EN&language=EN&navigationBar=YES

“Rule 202 : Amendment of the Rules of Procedure
1. Any Member may propose amendments to these Rules and to the annexes thereto accompanied, if appropriate, by short justifications.
Such proposed amendments shall be translated, printed, distributed and referred to the committee responsible, which shall examine them and decide whether to submit them to Parliament.
For the purpose of applying Rules 150, 151 and 155 to consideration of such proposed amendments in Parliament, references made in those Rules to the 'original text' or the 'Commission proposal' shall be considered as referring to the provision in force at the time.
2. Amendments to these Rules shall be adopted only if they secure the votes of a majority of the component Members of Parliament.
3. Unless otherwise specified when the vote is taken, amendments to these Rules and to the annexes thereto shall enter into force on the first day of the part-session following their adoption.”

…..

DAN IN THIS AFTERNOON’S BLOG ALSO STATES THAT:

“I made a point of order to protest. An electoral majority, I said, could not over-rule a constitution. Majority or no, the Parliament still had to follow its own rule book. To do otherwise would be to replace the rule of law with arbitrary government.”

BUT IT IS CLEAR FROM RULE 202(2) THAT THE RULES CAN BE AMENDED BY A MAJORITY.

IT WAS THE MAJORITY VOTE THAT DAN HANNAN WAS RESPONDING TO WITH HIS OUTBURST THIS MORNING.

CONTRARY TO WHAT HE WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE, THE PARLIAMENT WAS INDEED FOLLOWING ITS OWN BOOK.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT DAN IS UNAWARE OF RULE 202. HE’S CERTAINLY NO FOOL AND HE TAKES THE TROUBLE TO INFORM HIMSELF. HAS HE SLIPPED UP THIS TIME OR HAS HE DELIBERATELY CHOSEN TO OMIT IMPORTANT FACTS FROM HIS ACCOUNT OF THIS AFFAIR?

IT LOOKS TO ME AS THOUGH DAN WANTS TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH RULES OF PROCEDURE HE WANTS TO SEE APPLIED (AND WHICH HE WILL CARE TO INFORM HIS READERS ABOUT). IT LOOKS LIKE HE WANTS To HAVE HIS CAKE AND EAT IT …

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