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I've just read "Cameron dismisses party critics" on the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6923497.stm).

How dare he dismiss any Conservatives who has doubts about his leadership style (not to mention concerns about recent events) in this way. This is pure arrogance and it isn't doing the party any favours at all.

As someone who supported the election of Cameroon as leader I'm horrified at the recent turn of events. Most of it he's brought on himself, and I'm ashamed now to admit that I once supported him - it was a big mistake.

Not clever to be seen to dismiss the motives of all of his critics although I certainly agree that Miraj has behaved badly.

It should be his cabinet colleagues doing this. Where are they?

So, is he offering any modern ideas about schools, NHS, the economy, taxation, foreign affairs? Or is modernisation something we must simply stand in awe of without any explanation?

So we have the destroyers and critics out in force once again on this site.Those who have learnt nothing during the last ten years, who only know what there against and not what there for and who think that the answers of todays problems lie in the solutions of the nineteen eighties.
David Cameroon is right to dismiss them as there way is the road to another term of Labopur government and more years of Labour ruining this country and destroying all what most of us love about this country.

He seems hell bent on getting up the noses of any Conservatives who will not/have not come round to his way forward,If they don't like it,tough,move on and out.

Another mistake by him I'm afraid.

Deeper and deeper he digs his hole.

Very very good. Enough with all the articles about "this has been/that passed-over candidate" attacks the party/leader. So what. I'd rather read about David Davis' unequivocal support not just for Cameron but for his strategy and direction, which I would suggest is more important strategically!

Jack Stone - the only destroyer of the Conservative Party I can see is Cameron and his liberal-minded advisers.

An extraordinary interview – dismisses his critics with irritated arrogance and then twitters on about discipline in schools – if it wasn’t so depressing it would be funny. When is Cameron going to tell us what he believes in??????

Are there any Cameron critics on this site who are not either (a) extreme right wing revolutionary defeatists (b) Labour operatives assuming the guise of "As someone who supported the election of Cameroon as leader..."?

It's a complete joke. DC has a strategy to win power for the Conservative Party. It's the only one that has any chance of success. That's why the one-party-rule Brownites are desperate to inflict maximum damage.

As for those so-called right wingers who would rather keep Brown than have Cameron as PM, they are irresponsible children in search of instant emotional gratification. Better to get a kick out of spouting a hardline agenda than have any chance of implimenting any of it, eh?

He does seem to surround himself with odd people. Perhaps a clear out of many of the single issue wonks would allow him to take a more strategic view of his role.

Special educational needs and school expulsions, while doubtless important, don't compete for the news headlines with the PM's visit to Camp David and the UN.

Unfortunately, the issue for interviewers is now him and not his policy

The attack on Ali Miraj rather than considering the points he has made escalates this row. He should have kept Ali on board and not let it get to this position.

Sorry, I meant 'implement' - exactly what I'd like to stick up Ali Miraj's behind.

Come on Jomo - tell us which Conservative Association you're a member of, you New Labour troll.

He says he is not going to "cling on to the past". He ditched the torch for a little tree which is still a joke, he wants to hug a hoodie and invite Polly Toynbee to the Party Conference, not a good move. There are some things he should not be ditching in his quest to modernise, namely his core voters, if he doesn't keep them on board, he will not get in.

Would it not be preferable for those who are inclined to be disloyal, treacherous or snide back-stabbers to do so within the confines of the Party rather than to demean themselves and damage both the Leader and the Party as a whole by parading their nauseating prejudices in public. The job of Leader of HM Opposition is difficult enough as it is without jumped-up, self-important nonentities like Brady, Miraj or Kalms combining to cause as much trouble as possible just because Cameron has dismissed them for what they are - marginalised, inadequate and dispossessed.
David Cameron has done a huge amount to get the Tory Party to come to terms with the 21st Century and, judging by the comments of many of the so-called Tory "supporters" who contribute to this website, he has still got a very long way to go!

And as for 'Ian' (another NuLab troll?) - how can Cameron be expected to keep "Ali on board" when the little wretch demanded a peerage from him and then, when refused, rushed into print to attack DC as unprincipled!

This is ridiculous! David Cameron had every right to dimiss Miraj, he clearly cannot talk about principles.
And for everyone who wants Labour to win again and for us to be out of power for another 10 years, do please carry on criticising him

A couple of days ago the same moaners were going on about DC being too soft. Now he's being too tough!

Come on, who gives a stuff about Kalms and Saatchi? Who'd even heard of Brady before he made his stand to bring back Secondary Moderns? Now there's a policy that will have voters flooding back to the Conservatives (I don't think!)

In the councils which were contested in the May elections there are now more Conservative councillors than all other parties put together, yet what do the critics focus on? Two by-elections which no serious commentator thought the Conservatives had the slightest chance of winning.

The "Brown Bounce" is beginning to lose its energy with his less than emphatic performance in the USA.

How about a bit of positive thinking for a change? I predict that there will be no snap election and a Conservative victory in 2009.

Yes Common Sense there are.

Let me explain it to you. I am aware that what I am about to to type could be headed ‘Statement of the Bleeding Obvious’ but it seems you need it explained to you.

Brown does not just have the Labour base locked up he energises them. He is what they have been waiting for; a genuine pickled in aspic 50’s tax and spend union backed socialist come to take them to the promised land.

When the election is called and it won’t be long they will hit the streets like its Armageddon time.

With them plus whatever floating voters he can persuade he can take the next election.

Cameron is alienating the Conservative base. His strategy all along has been they have nowhere else to go so they’re stuck with me so I can ignore them and take them for granted and become a centre Left politician who can pull in more floating voters than Brown but it’s a strategy that is blatantly failing.

The Conservative base will never vote Labour but they can and will if things continue as they are stay home not canvas and likely even not vote and thus we have five more years of the Brown terror and they will hope a new CONSERVATIVE leader.

Please tell me you understand this Common Sense even if you don’t agree with it.

Why can't these people see they are wrecking any chance of making progress at the next election. There are thousands of us working hard in marginals, only to have our hard work wrecked by a people like Ali Miraj because he can't get what he wants. If we keep looking divided like this then we're finished. Can't the moaners see past this and not go publicity seeking to suit their pathetic egos.

Ali Miraj? who on earth is he? a second string wanabee MP, this has the smell/feel of a co-ordinated plot, following so sharply on the heels of the Brady, Kalms and Satachi,attacks, note they were all ( excl Ali)Davis supporters, if someone in the shadow cabinet thinks they will make a better leader now, then perhaps instead of using their pawns they should have the courage to step forward in to the limelight themseleves?

Cameron won 8-1 in the leadership vote less than 2 years ago, nothing in my mind has changed since then to make me change my mind that he is the right person to make the changes needed to make us electable.

What is needed now is discipline and unity...do we want to win or what?

The more we slag off our leader in public the more people will think we are divided, the easier it will be for Labour to say, " told you it's the same old tories" and the easier it will be for floating voters to go back to the Lib Dems...

Keep up the good work, chaps. Doing an excellent job of convincing the public the Tories continue to be unelectable. If lucky we, may do even worse than last time. One can only hope that Conerstone now announce that they will aim to hijack the policy review process. Fingers crossed!

Niallster - two questions for you that will, I hope, demonstrate that I understand you all too well.

1) Did Blair (3 election victories) pander to the Labour 'base' in order to win. Or did he challenge some of the elements of their creed that had lost popularity with the broader electorate (eg - CND, nationalisation)?

I certainly accept that there are SOME habitual Tory voters who will, if their deepest convictions on Europe, immigration and crime are not publicly trumpeted by the Leader, simply sit on their hands on election day. Annoyingly for us, the broader electorate (while sharing some of our activists' sentiments on these issues) is also suspicious of Tories displaying too much relish for ranting in a 'nasty' way.

DC has set out to allay these fears, make the Party moderate (which, crucially, is how 80% of voters see themselves) and fit for government. So my second question for you is this:

2) Do you prefer to snipe from the sidelines about the risk of alienating the 'base' instead of going out and persuading unhappy right wingers that DC's strategy is the best, indeed the only, way to win power to do the things that Britain needs, not least stopping the EU Constitution?

Really, all this talk about our criticism costing the tories the election! Who, I would like to know, will base their decision to vote on what is said on this website? Secondly, the editors, by posting threads with titles such as this one are presumably inviting debate. Debate involves criticism. So all those with nothing more original or illuminating to say the "Ssh! Labour might overhear us," should clear off to some site which sings hymns to the great leader.

Miraj deserved a kicking and DC delivered it. What's the problem?

Simon Denis - this site has considerable destructive power because it acts as a shop window for journalists looking for "Tories attack Cameron" stories. Ali Miraj wanted to crap on DC because he was refused a peerage. Where did he go? ConHome.

Within hours it was item 2 on the BBC Ten O'clock news. The BBC loves to bash the Conservative Party and this site is now their one-stop-shop for ammo.

Common Sense... seems to mean different things to different people. My guess is that DC supporters are the ones with common sense, but there are always those who lose focus, courage and determination when apparent difficulties arise - one of the things that puts me off Con Home is the personal nature of some of the posts, and here I am doing just that.

Come on men, women, boys and girls - DC has focus, courage and determination in spades. Try it - you might like it.

"The BBC loves to bash the Conservative Party and this site is now their one-stop-shop for ammo."

The truest thing I've read for ages. Some so-called right wingers should feel very, very queasy about the leftist agendas they are serving. Don't they see the irony of attacking David Cameron for 'selling out' while themselves doing Brown's dirty work for him?

Perhaps they are so consumed with self-righteous bitterness that they've lost all sense of perspective.

Common Sense

A Labour marginal with an "sparkling" A-list candidate. Probably now safe for Brown until the one after next.

You appear happy to kick the messenger and ignore the message. Are you one of DCs praetorian guard?

Can't you see what has happened. He is upsetting everyone even his friends. He was hopeless on the Beeb this am.

What is the policy on Iraq, Afganistan, Europe. What happens if there is a referendum and the treaty is rejected? What will he do if Parliament ratifies the treaty?

Does he accept the Blair/Bush doctrine of pre-emptive wars? Whats his policy on Iran?
Will he continue to accept the casualties from Afganistan and Iraq without challenging the policy?

I suspect some of these issues are just a little more important than school expulsions.

Which Conservative Association are you active in, Jomo?

I'm happy to debate with you if you're a loyal but disaffected Tory writing in good faith but I'm not prepared to engage with UKIP or NuLab glove puppets, which, judging by the tone of your comments, is exactly what you are.

I am beginning to despair.This party has an unrivalled propensity to shoot itself in the foot whenever it can. What do many of the commentators from both left and right above not understand about the fact that divided parties invariably lose elections?
What have Brady, Saatchi and Kalms achieved this week?
Ali Miraj I think is a disgrace. He already has form, he described my constituency members as racist in our candidate selection process. (He was eleminated in the 2nd round). We are so racist that we chose Priti Patel as our candidate.Still waiting for the apology Mr Miraj.I sincerely hope you have no future in the Conservative party.
I haven't heard Camerons interview yet so am forced to rely on the BBC spin of that interview that undoubtedly succeeded in making him sound arrogant. Let's hope he handled it better than the BBC makes it appear. After all one of his biggest mistakes to date has been to dismiss his opponents in the Grammar school debate as 'delusional'. I hope he's learned his lesson.
What he has never said Torygirl is 'hug a hoodie', it's such a shame that so many on this site seem to be suckers for nuLabour spin.

How gullible the DC brigade are in closing ranks when they should be questioning his abilities to mount a credible challenge for power. Saatchi and Miraj grew a backbone to open the eyes of the Tory mainstream who were quite willing to sit-back and allow DC to continue with 'powder-puff' PR politics and lead us into another losing situation. The issues raised are of fundamental importance and both Saatchi and Miraj should be applauded for waking DC et al up to set-out concrete policies which stack up. DC's attack on Miraj was a low blow aimed at bringing into question Miraj's integrity and tried to side-step the legitimate points he raised. Most worrying should be the transparency in DC's attack and how it is perceived by voters - its clear what he was doing.

Hello "Andrew Hudson" - do you think by using a full name no one will guess that you're a glove puppet? Alternatively, tell us which Conservative Association you're involved in.

Jomo – you are absolutely right.

The real issue is the Party (Cameron and his pals) aren’t listening, which Cameron promised to do. Its not that I disagree with the so called ‘Modernisation’ of the Party, however the public, members, MPs and media demand more substance. At the moment we don’t know why Cameron wants to change the Party or indeed how. The substance doesn’t come from policy commissions. Substance comes from the leader setting a vision of what being a Conservative in today’s Britain actually means. The values we hold and why those values meet the values of Britain today. The policies hang from the vision, not vice versa.

It’s because the leadership doesn’t listen that you get a loosening of discipline, from all sides of the Party. Whilst MPs and Tory Grandees appear on the media, the grass roots vent their frustration on sites, like ConservativeHome.

We can either ‘bury our heads in the sand’, which some on this site would prefer or constructively discuss the challenges the Party faces. It simply isn’t good enough for followers of the modernising agenda to criticise those of us who also want the Party to change, but demand some humility and reassessment of the strategy.

Both 'Saatchi and Miraj ought to be applauded'. I suppose that's true if you support the Labour party. However if you support the Conservative party Andrew, I can only conclude that you're not very bright.

and destroying all what most of us love about this country.

Posted by: Jack Stone | July 31, 2007 at 10:53

What exactly are these things you "love about this country" Jack Stone ?

if you support the Conservative party Andrew, I can only conclude that you're not very bright.

What a cruel thing to say about Conservatives but I suppose Councillor Dunn knows them well enough

Good one Observer!

Common Sense

Firstly, 'common sense' - you should try to display some - the Saatchi and Miraj comments were aimed at focussing attention on the formulation of firm policies which are clear to the voters.

We have moved away and become distracted by weak policy soundbites at a time when we need to have a clear roadmap to power.

malcolm

Applauded for opening our eyes, look at the poll ratings and the shift post-Brown. Thats not through Labour hardwork, its down to us taking our foot off the pedal and allowing this situation to unravel.

I found it morally reprehensible for a current leader of the opposition to resort to backroom tactics to admonish an ardent Tory supporter. His comments and those of Brady, Saatchi and Kalms were a measured attempt to get back to what we have always done best - providing clear policy-driven initiatives. This is just not happening and it took the events over the last few days to get this out into the open before Brown springs a snap election.

This is my first post on this site and I can't believe the quantity of embittered whingers carping at Cameron. No Tory leader can possibly succeed if the membership declare open season on him at the first sign of trouble. Why not take a leaf out of Labour's book and learn a little discipline. The public will never trust a party whose main interest seems to be self-indulgent blood letting.

On the education policy speech - this is good news, but I agree Dave needs much more visible shadow cabinet backup - he can't do it all by himself.

I note that "Andrew Hudson" blatantly refuses to tell us where he's involved with the Conservative Party. A Labour Party operative, methinks.

His comments and those of Brady, Saatchi and Kalms were a measured attempt to get back to what we have always done best - providing clear policy-driven initiatives.

But done in such a way Andrew, openly in the media, that given the current media narrative it was always going to come across as "candidate attacks Cameron". Was it ego or stupidity that made them do it anyway?

You think Cameron was too hard on Miraj? Would you be happier if it was left to a backroom staffer to break Miraj in half and then anonymously brief the story? There'll be a long line of volunteers, and I'll be near the front.

The funniest thing about all this was the BBC closing their original "Candidate attacks Cameron" story with "Mr Miraj hopes to be a Tory parliamentary candidate". This looks good on the CV. Take aim at own foot and pull trigger...

Ali Miraj's rant is sour grapes. This is the same Ali Miraj who did not think that he stood a chance in Braintree due to racism - but Braintree selected Priti Patel!
However, washing dirty linen in Public by Caemron only ups the stakes and does not do any good. Instead Cameron should take note of the general mood of the public. If both the main parties are offering the same dross, it will only make the voter even more apathetic and we'll not succeed.

Cameron should stop pandering to the Liberal Metroploitan hoodies and take note of the silent majority's hunger for change - come up with definitive policy ideas to win over the C1s and C2s. Our ideas must put the fire in the bellies of the voters to turn out and vote for us.

Miraj is clearly an emotionally unstable self-seeking creep. Imagine asking for a peerage.

Arise Lord Miraj of NuLabTool.

"Cameron should stop pandering to the Liberal Metroploitan hoodies and take note of the silent majority's hunger for change - come up with definitive policy ideas to win over the C1s and C2s. Our ideas must put the fire in the bellies of the voters to turn out and vote for us."

Absolutely right. If only William Hague, Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard has thought of that, we'd be back in power by now.

All we need is some tough new slogans like 'Keep the Pound' and 'It's not racist to want immigration controls' and the people will rally to us.

My comment from the other thread:

Ali Miraj has been arrogant as ever. He deserves absolutely nothing from the Party as he has achieved precious little for it.

For those who can't stop going on about Watford:

General Election 2005: Watford
Party Candidate Votes % ±%
Labour Claire Ward 16,575 33.6 −11.7
Liberal Democrats Sal Brinton 15,427 31.2 +13.8
Conservative Ali Miraj 14,634 29.6 −3.7
Green Steve Rackett 1,466 3.0 +1.1
UK Independence Kenneth Wight 1,292 2.6 +1.4

Our vote was down and we finished third. If that entitles you to a safe seat, Ali, I'd love to see what you think constitutes a failed candidate...

You speak for no-one but yourself. I hope and expect that you won't be selected as a PPC anywhere.

Ali, the reason you are not going into the House of Lords is simple; you are not up to standard. Get over it.

Mr. Cameron has gone on the BBC to tackle the criticism that has been welling up in the wake of his ill-judged decision to go to Rwanda whilst the worst floods in living memory were affecting his and many other Tory constituencies in the south-west of England.

Firstly and easiest to deal with was a man called Ali Miraj who, until yesterday had not been heard of by 99% of the population.

This gentleman has apparently stood twice in the conservative interest. In 2001 he picked up 7.6% of the vote at Aberavon and came in fourth. Aberavon is as safe a Labour seat as you could wish for and there was no disgrace as such in that but one might hope he could do a little better than fourth.

In 2005 he stood at Watford. Watford was held by the Conservatives throughout the Thatcher and major eras, often with substantial Conservative majorities before falling to Vanity Blair’s Red Tide in 1997. In 2001 the Conservatives were still in second place, 5555 votes adrift of Labour with 33.3% of the vote. The LibDems were in distant third with 17.4% of the vote. In 2005 Mr. Miraj was such a successful candidate that he turned 33.3% of the vote into 29.63% pushing the Conservatives into third place behind the LibDems who now have 31.23%.

Traditionally, before the days of ‘A’ Lists and Golden Parachutes, you fought a no-hoper first time out to show your mettle before being given a safe seat to fight or at least a thoroughly winnable marginal or former Conservative seat that might well be on the cusp of returning to the fold. Mr. Miraj spectacularly failed in Watford, producing what on any view is a disastrous result in a seat where the Conservatives must have aspirations to win if they are to form a government.

You do not normally get given safe seats after that sort of débâcle. Yet he remained on the list of candidates and continued to apply for such, applying to the seat of Witham, a new seat with a notional safe Conservative majority. Mr Miraj claimed that when he applied for the seat, Bernard Jenkin and two other Tory MPs, John Whittingdale and Brooks Newmark, had told him: "Good luck Ali, but I would be shocked if they didn't pick a white middle-class male." No other evidence was forthcoming to support this assertion and Mr. Jenkin denied it. Mr. Miraj expressed some complaint at the time that amounted to a veiled accusation of ingrained racism on the part of Tory Associations.

Now he turns up at Mr. Cameron’s office and, if you please, requests a peerage at the earliest opportunity, something which, alas, is no longer readily in the gift of the Leader of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. But the mere fact that he felt that he could go and ask for such a thing and must have fully expected to receive it suggests a man of considerable arrogance with an enormously high view of his self-worth. When told the reality, that no such offer could be made, he goes off in a huff and engages in a bitter attack on the man he has just asked to give him a peerage.

This was a petulant man who cannot understand why his talents are not automatically recognized and immediately reward. The truth is he is a two times loser who has realized he is past his sell-by date throwing his toys out of his pram. Little real attention ought to be afforded him. If David Davis had said, the earth would have moved. Interestingly his website is offline right now: skulking in the undergrowth no doubt.
As it is, well, for him oblivion beckons.

Lord Kalms is a David Davis and erstwhile donor. He perhaps should have spoken to his protégé first and then adopted the same supportive position that David Davis did over the weekend. Lord Kalms does not stand at the heart of the party and does not sit on its inner councils and one wonders why he felt unable to speak privately of his misgivings as opposed to rushing into print.

With these two what grates is that they allowed themselves to be used by the enemy’s AgitProp arm, the BBC, to attack the Conservative party. It is to be hoped that the men in suits will have been round to seem Mr. Miraj and told him that he need not bother applying for the post of Town Rat Catcher in future as a refusal will only offend him yet again. David Davis can doubtless be persuaded to speak to Lord Kalms and point out the error of his ways.

Graham Brady is in a different position. I reckon he was treated very poorly at the time of his resignation and the manner in which he was trashed to the press was redolent of the very worst forms of Alistair Campbell’s Red Terror. He could and should have been much more sensitively dealt with and few in the party now think that the Grammar Schools issue was anything other than a serious misjudgement by Mr. Cameron and his team in terms of how it was handled. He is Northern MP and is plainly irritated by what has happened. He ought to be told soon that he has not completely blotted his copybook and a way will be found to get him back into a shadow post as soon as maybe. Time to kiss and make up.

I for one feel that we must now exercise self-discipline. I have been forthright in my criticisms in the past few weeks but we must assume that Mr. Cameron now understands he has to trim his sails somewhat. We need to see the whole picture as far as detailed policy is concerned. Hopefully this will have something for everyone in every corner of the party (I hesitate to use old labels such as centre right, right, hard right, centre left and so on since I myself have views that range across the whole spectrum and doubt that such labels are very meaningful today except to BBC producers who like to label anything they do not like as ‘far right’) so that there is enough to entice back voters who have disappeared off to the left, whether to Blair or to the Nut Cutlet & Sandals Brigade or to the right where they have abstained or voted UKIP.

For my own part I intend to try and abjure criticism for now on and urge all who want to get Labour out to do the same. Mr. Cameron has to do his part though, showing that he is responsive to our concerns and does not arrogantly dismiss them out of hand and that, having heard the rumble of unhappiness, he is going to produce a manifesto upon which everyone in the party feels comfortable to fight. We can and must get over this rocky period and get on with the business of opposing Macavity and his Nincompoops.

In the broad picture of things, I am reminded of the great French soldier (yes, they did have them once, before they became cheese-eating surrender monkeys!) Ferdinand Foch, who became in 1918 Allied Surpreme Commander, at a critical moment of the First Battle of the Marne in September 1914:

Mon centre cède, ma droite recule, situation excellente, j'attaque.*


Perhaps Mr. Cameron might like to think and act in the same way.

* “My centre is giving way, my right is retreating, situation excellent, I shall attack.”

The elephant in the room is what all this says about Cameron's judgement.

He surrounds himself with flaky "tony Lits" and wonders why his house has wobbly foundations.

Cameron is doing immense damage to the party's credibility, membership is down 80,000, and his PR driven approach risks turning the Tories into a cliquey personality cult rather than a serious political party.

thatcher said "we". Cameron keeps saying the party "I" lead, "Cameron's Conservatives", "me", "my", "I".

He lacks the humility to recognise he is lent the party's leadership, it is not his. He lacks the beliefs to be a serious politician or inspire loyalty, and he lacks the judgement to avoid pitfall after pitfall.

Loyalty is a 2 way street and he just doesn't seem to understand how it is built- when you kick long standing supporters in the teeth in the name of modernisation (A list, By election, delusional ... and on and on... you reap the harvest of criticism and withdrawal of effort.

Opportunists and snake oil salesman neither inspire, or deserve loyalty.

To criticize Thatcher was to attack our ideals, to criticize Cameron is merely to attack an ego.

One almost begins to wonder why a man like this was ever rushed on to Dave's beloved A-List in the first place. It surely can't just have been because of his skin colour?

Whats wrong with having a debate on this site?

The fact that the BBC trawl the site for ammo should suprise no one. The BBC will always run with the division story because its the only one they've got and Dave left an open goal when he went to Rwanada. The BBC realises that its days are probably numbered if GB fails to get re- elected, hence the love in with Gordon, but fear of giving them ammo should not stops us having on - line debates. Even if we all said Dave was wonderful, The BBC would simply make up something anyway.

Lets get on with the debate!

My take on this thread is that if Dave gave everybody some idea of his policies, the personslity issues would evaporate.

Very good post Huntsman. You've put it much better than I have. I hope posters reading this thread will heed your wise advice.Sadly, I doubt if some will.

Are there any scorched earth Tories posting on this site (or indeed writing the site itself) who actually believe it would be better to lose the next election than to win it under Cameron?

Just wondering, it really wouldn't surprise me given the tone of some posts and the comfort they must give our opponents.

It would be intellectually honest of you to confess if that is your view.

If that's our choice, I'd rather win with Cameron than lose without him. Which position do you prefer to adopt in response to the fact that *with* Cameron we appear set to lose *again*? Head in the sand, or hands over eyes?

Speaking for myself and none of the other 'scorched earthers', what I *detest* about Cameron is precisely what you seem to find so objectionable about posters on this thread. Namely that Dave directly employs people who did their very best to ensure that Hague lost, in order, as they thought, that their hero Portillo might propser. So I ask you, what matters more, posters on this thread sounding off, or the Leader of the Party employing men like that?

Are there any scorched earth Tories posting on this site (or indeed writing the site itself) who actually believe it would be better to lose the next election than to win it under Cameron?

Yes.

Ditto the fall of Heath's Government.

Until we have policies geared to economic competitiveness, Public service reform, and social mobility there is no role for a Conservative government, and Cameron's lack of willingness to make the case for competitiveness and reform leaves the UK in a dangerous center left drift consensus.

Until Heath went there was no reform. I fear the same is true of the Notting Hill lobby.

PS I fear that taxes under Cameron are likely to be higher than under Brown given his reluctance to reform Public Services - stop the NHS cuts etc, and inexperience. there is no evidence to the contrary and Brown has at least imposed recent caps on eg Nurses pay rises.

Is Cameron's the first freak show where a freak has attacked the showmaster?

"He now seems on a mission to cause as much damage to Team Cameron as possible."

and the Conservative party !

Whilst I am not one of them there certainly are ‘scorched earth’ Tories on this and indeed other forums.

And speaking for them (I know not why) their arguments are as follows:

1. Victory with Cameron meaning a centre left Conservative party leader for the foreseeable future being no different from Blair/Brown.

2. Lose to Brown, depose Cameron and elect a Conservative leader. Assume Brown will last for five years max which is a reasonable assumption as any of the West Lothian question, real Scottish Independence (Salmond has proposed a referendum within 3 years) or the PFI time bomb should be enough to see him and Labour off followed by 10+ years of real Conservatism.

You can see the attraction…

One of two things ought to happen now.

If what Mr Cameron said about Mr Miraj on the 'Today' programme is factually incorrect, Mr Miraj ought to take legal advice with a view to clearing up a gross slur on his reputation.

If, however, what Mr Cameron said was indeed correct, then Mr Cameron and his fellow Modernisers should display a degree of humility and contrition as they try to work out how the sort of person who behaves in the way they claim Mr Miraj has done has ended up on two of their policy committees and indeed on their candidates' list, at a time when many long-standing, hard working Tory activists no longer feel valued in their own party.

Its fascinating to watch the faithful who used to believe in Country before Party now exhorting dissenters to fall into line and place Party before Country at all costs. Doesnt matter to you what a Tory Government under Cameron would actually *be like* in the slightest as long as there is one next time, right lads?

And as for 'Common Sense', your constant bleating about which Conservative Association people belong to or not makes you sound like an old Communist - only the Party Members got to have a valid opinion in the USSR too, remember?

Malcolm
Re the Cameron interview:

I thought he did very well in the face of rude and relentlessly negative questioning from Sarah Montague. She was obviously uninterested in anything Cameron had to say and just bombarded him with unrelated critical quotes from her clip-board.
He kept his cool , however, and demonstrated his natural good manners.
I'm glad he turned on his attackers. Miraj thought he could do a Lord Taylor, who was stupidly given a peerage for not making his mark in Cheltenham. Kalms is a self-important idiot, who presides over a crap shopping empire. He thinks, like another big-shot, who happens to be in the gambling business, that being a donor means you can dictate policy and tactics. No way.
I don't buy that we should be nice to Brady. It was completely unnecessary to go public on grammar schools and kicked off this current slump in the polls. I'd be happy never to see him on the front bench again.

Two points.

ACT says: "Dave directly employs people who did their very best to ensure that Hague lost, in order, as they thought, that their hero Portillo might propser."

Name names or stop smearing. Remember that your IP address can be traced before you start the libels. You'd better have hard facts to back up your allegations.

DSD says: "And as for 'Common Sense', your constant bleating about which Conservative Association people belong to or not makes you sound like an old Communist - only the Party Members got to have a valid opinion in the USSR too, remember?"

What a bogus point. We have no way of knowing whether the rash of anti-Cameron comments on this site is coming from active and otherwise loyal Tories (in which case it's a genuine news story) or Labour and UKIP slimebags trying to damage our Party (in which case it's not a story, at least as far as the BBC is concened). I'm asking those who attack Cameron to identify themselves so we can see that they are (a) genuine and (b) not one person posting under multiple identities.

Like 'ACT' and 'DSD', perhaps.

Some people really do take themselves terribly seriously. What a self important pompous prat. Isn't this the same guy who complained when he didn't get selected for a particularly safe seat, said it was racism, although a BME candidate was selected, got poor Bernard Jenkins into trouble? Can't help thinking this is where political correctness leads - 'I deserve a safe seat/peerage/a leg up in life because.....' What is so special about this guy apart from his ethnicity? It was obvious he was in self destruct mode from Witham onwards why was he still hanging around?

I'm happy to name names, albeit the last time I did, for some weird reason the two names were overwritten. Voting green, rather than voting Tory hardly strikes me as being the epitome of loyalty. Working for Jimmy Goldsmith when he was working to unseat Tory MPs is another odd way of going about showing what a good Tory you are. I'm sure, Common Sense, you know who I'm talking about. By the way, I've no idea whether *you* post here under multiple, frantic Cameroon identities or not, and nor do I care. I post under one name: argue with the point of view, and do for heaven's sake stop boring us with the pointless smears.

And as Dru said earlier: what does it say for Dave that Miraj was the sort of man *he* fast-tracked onto the A List above several hundred other, evidently far, far better Tories? Presumably much the same thing 'David Cameron's candidate' Tony Lit said about him: namely that this party is led by an untrustworthy, disengenuous loser. And sad to say, I could live with the first two, it's the final characteristic Dave has that galls me so.

ACT - I didn't ask you to name someone who voted Green and I didn't ask you to name someone who worked for Sir James Goldsmith (who died in 1997). I know exactly who you are talking about in both cases but that is utterly irrelevant to what I asked you. So let me repeat it.

You said: "Dave directly employs people who did their very best to ensure that Hague lost, in order, as they thought, that their hero Portillo might propser."

We want to know who you are talking about. You say "I'm happy to name names" so get on with it.

If you don't, you'll be revealed as a bullshitting glove puppet with inadequate anonymizing facilities to allow you to libel people with impunity.

RF: The point is you won't win under Cameron just take a look at the poll numbers. A hung parliament is the best you can possibly hope for and that is rapidly slipping away. Its terribly sad to watch.

Um, I'm happy to name names, but really you *will* have to calm down with all that sweary mary stuff - that way lies a stroke if you're not careful. Douglas Smith and Steve Hilton, as John Major and Douglas Hague know full well, have been serially disloyal to past Tory leaders. Cameron employs them; Cameron deserves an appropriate level of disloyalty. And if either Hilton or Smith wishes to sue me for saying that, please do!

I rarely visit this site now, having become so disillusioned with the Party under Cameron's 'leadership'.

However, the question was posed earlier, is it better to win with Cameron or lose without him. Silly question. For the party, we should all strive to win and show solidarity. But I no longer think that we can with with Cameron. The game is up, and people are now starting to see through him. Despite what we may think of Brown, he is projecting an image of a Leader. Cameron is not. The British electorate will vote for change, but only if they see a real chance of that change and believe that it will be implemented. Cameron does not inspire that confidence. Nor, sadly, does he propose change that people want. It is the economy, stupid, and Brown still is perceived as a 'safer' pair of hands than Cameron.

A 4th election loss would (will?) be a disaster for this once great party, but we really only have ourselves to blame. I now think that we would have more chance of avoiding it without Cameron at the helm. We elected the wrong David, and there may still be time to rectify that mistake.

Probably best for the Tories to avoid getting too close to supporters like Miraj at the moment. Fundamentally untrustworthy. Best to stick to tried and tested Tories. Meanwhile, I wonder how long it will be until those 6 defecting Labour councillors in Ealing return to Labour....

Yesterday I speculated that a muppet would be prominent on conhome - I was right.

It was a untrustworthy nonentity who's claim to fame was to cry "racism" when he didn't get a seat and to run crying to the beeb when he didn't get a peerage.

He should be run out of town.

What loon, nutter or psycho will be on con home tomorrow ?

Why shouldn't Ali Miraj attack the Party in order to get himself a peerage?

It worked for John Taylor.

Ian

"He should have kept Ali on board and not let it get to this position"

You mean ensure he had been selected as candidate in a winnable seat or given him a peerage, i.e a bribe?

I am sorry Common Sense, in 2001 we did not have a chance and the country was not prepared to listen to us; in 2005 we did make immense inroads and the wall was too steep to climb and thats why we lost.
It is difefrent now, and people were beginning to ask questions re the economy, immigration, law and order, falling educational standards and general increase in government bureaucracy and levels of taxation. People now recognise that the Conservative ideas on these subjects are sound and they come knocking on our doors - problem is Cameron and Gideon have gone awol.

I am old enough to recognise one simple fact - when things are good, people want to elect a touchy feely, glib government - New Labour in 1997. When things turn sour they want the conservatives to fix things. But Cameron and 'heir to Blair' Gideon are too busy being 'nice'. lets hope that during the holidays someone gets some sense of purpose into these air heads.

"Ali Miraj I think is a disgrace. He already has form, he described my constituency members as racist in our candidate selection process. (He was eleminated in the 2nd round). We are so racist that we chose Priti Patel as our candidate.Still waiting for the apology Mr Miraj.I sincerely hope you have no future in the Conservative party" - Malcolm. Couldn't agree more.

It was tough for the able and experienced Ali Miraj to be overtaken by the less able newcomer Sayeeda Warsi and to witness the Tony Lit fiasco. Please get over it Ali. We need able democrats like you in the Conservative Party.

I should I also add that I think it's a great shame that our Editor allowed Ali to use New Labour spin on this site.

Many people warned over the selection of fickle wannabes without any loyalty who were pushed to the front of the queue simply because of fixed quotas for sex and race?

Who would be prepared to bet real money on Tony Lit still being a party member in three years? How about Rehman Chishti?

These people want nothing but a career as an MP. If the opportunity slips, they'll be the first to use the status they currently have (ie to please Labour by putting the boot in a la Ali Miraj) to springboard across to Labour.

This is 100% of Cameron's doing. Of course Ali Miraj is wrong and an embarrassment to the party, but he's only there because Cameron allowed it.

These people are the true definition and legacy of Cameroonism; no loyalty, no values, just a rabid thirst for self-gain and a political career.

Ali Miraj has done nothing more than speak the truth, for which he has been rewarded by a comprehensive trashing by a revenge-seeking Cameron.

I find it particularly disturbing that the latest victim of Cameron's vengeance should be a talented Asian Conservative.

We have had good reason to question Cameron's judgment in many areas. Now it seems that a new and hitherto unexplored area of misconduct comes into view.

Questions are going to be asked - and they must be answered.

PM has reported that Miraj has been suspended from the candidates list: his chances of selection anywhere having just become, well a Mirage....

Oh dear, sorry for that folks!

Good riddance to someone who has just exposed himself to be the very worst sort of careerist and in it for himself. Bin him now and lets move on.

alimiraj.com is no more. Well, until he defects.

Get used to it. We've got Tony Lit, Rehman, etc etc to haunt us in the future....

Oh yes, Cameron's legacy will be damaging the Conservative Party long after he gets the push.

So, the reason why the opaque, undemocratic, centralising, selection-rigging, slate-fixing A list *had* to be forced on the Party was because, intoned Dave, the lumpen activists were too "racist" to pick enough visible ethnic minority candidates. 'Enough' meaning, enough for Dave, and Polly Toynbee, naturally. And what ho? Who's the first and only member of the A List to be chucked off by the national leadership? An Asian. In other words, a 100% record of discriminating, in the most literal sense, against Asians for Dave. Tut, tut, tut. Rather puts the supposed sins of local activists into perspective.

Huntsman, I'm glad David Cameron has taken the necessary action. No-one objects to constructive criticism but when Miraj only promises to curry favour by attaching the condition of a peerage, then David, as a man of honour, has to act. Sensible move by David Cameron.

What's the betting Miraj turns up as convert to Brown and given a safe Labour seat at the next election

Let me see if I'm getting this then Tony: when Dave forced Miraj on us as an A Lister (preferential access to good Tory seats - supposedly because he was an excellent, alpha candidate, and not as many feared at the time, at least in part because he had the right skin colour to qualify for Cameron's own brand of patronising racialistic tokenism), that was Good, but now that Dave has forced Miraj *off* the A List, this is better? Truly these threads are sometimes the last page of Animal Farm with extra added html.

Well if nothing else, we should give Cameron credit for successfully learning the New Labour art of keeping the Conservative Party in opposition!

Perhaps someone would just a spare a thought for those of us fighting target seats - and I mean actually fighting them and not swanning around at psh London do's been a 'PPC' don't ya know.

Some of us have given up our jobs, taken on huge financial burdens and are frankly running ourselves ragged in the hope that we might get our party back into power. I make no complaints about those sacrifces, we chose to do it. I do however beg for just a little bit of loyalty from our troops on ConHome. This constant sniping and nastiness is destroying us on the ground. Cameron has faults but not as many as Brown.

We are Conservatives, lets start to behave like Conservatives again. Please.

Act, When David Cameron took on Miraj, he took him on in good faith. As part of a team. However now that Miraj has shown a different unsavoury side to his personality David has taken the appropriate action. None of us can claim to know what a person is like exactly. David Cameron can only act on good faith, when the good faith and trust that David showed in Miraj was abused David had to respond. Sometimes in life people let us down, thats just a fact of life.

DC is absolutely right on this one.

He has removed a member of the candidates list who deliberately set out to harm the Party when it refused to allow him a peerage.

Ali Miraj deliberately accused the Conservative Party in Witham of being racists and despite them choosing a candidate who proved that definitely wasn't the case, he never took back that comment.

That's because he knows they are not in the slighest bit racist and is disgruntled that they saw through his careerist gloss and chose a good candidate instead.

Today we've seen it again, with this nonsense from Miraj supporters about the voters of Watford refusing to take an Asian MP. Once again highly insulting. Once again untrue and slanderous. And once again simply because the voters saw through him.

If this man is ever selected for us anywhere, which is highly unlikely now anyway, and we lose on a swing against us, don't say we weren't warned...

Some of us have given up our jobs, taken on huge financial burdens and are frankly running ourselves ragged in the hope that we might get our party back into power.

Hi Sickandtired, do you know what this . is?

It's the smallest violin in the world and it's playing just for you.

Sure your efforts aren't partly motivated by your desire to crawl on the Westminster gravy train?

I pulled this quote from the Daily Telegraph's web item on the Miraj affair dated 6:03pm today.

""He (David Cameron) responded to Lord Saatchi's comments that he should focus more on the economy, by saying that “runaway fathers, not runaway inflation” and “controlled drugs not an uncontrolled money supply” were the challenges facing today's political leaders.""

Did he really say this? Surely not. This is as good as sending out a message that he thinks that Brown has got the economy under control....

Surely he wouldn't do that. Would he...?

Patriot. Cameron is right. The economy is ticking along fairly well, for now, theres very little capital to be had until people notice a downturn. Scoring brownie points, pardon the phrase, is bestleft to the election campaign. Even healthy growing economies do not guarantee victory with 1997 a case in point. Cameron is simply contrasting the usual Labour spin about 'runaway inflation under the Tories' with the reality; a lack of cohesion in families and societal breakdown. It's an important point and it's one he needs to keep making.

This bandit Miraj was promoted, protected and pushed by Cameron and now that he has blown up in nice-but-dim's face our "leader" has only himself to blame.

Yet another own goal and Cameron is the cause. How many more gaffes before the party comes to its senses and gets rid of this walking liability?

I think David Cameron is tactfully waiting for the Brown economy to unravel rather than making predictions ahead of time. I'm confident that once the pound starts to nosedive we are going to see serious inflationary pressures which will force the Bank of England to raise interest rates again and again. I reckon David Cameron will wait until that happens and then he will pounce. Often its hard to make a convincing case to the public on economic matters merely by supposition.

LOL. Cameron waiting to pounce. ROTFL.

Afleitch, I'm not sure I share your confidence about the economy ticking along fairly well. UK external debt doubling since '97 to $9 Trillion rings alarm bells for me, and I'm sure many are unhappy at the prospect of rising interest rates. I suspect, although I have no survey to hand to confirm it, that a reasonable proportion of that middle ground we're looking for are also feeling pressure from 'real' inflation, as opposed to the government published figure, and are increasingly concerned at what appear to be cut backs happening in spending on public services across the board. Folk I talk to seem to have a growing unease about the economy.

If I'm right, I would have hesitated to imply that they were wrong and say that they should be worried about the breakdown of families instead. Be concerned about families as well as the economy certainly...but not instead. This, to me, is sending out a message that those who are worried about the economy are wrong. (deja vu of all those "delusional" Grammar school supporters). But perhaps I'm mistaken.

Perhaps he has access to data that tells him that his target audience is happy with the way the economy is going, and is being run.

Time will tell I guess. Let's hope you're right.

Tony Makara is beyond parody. Is he actually a Conservative?

Nice-but dim Cameron hasn't a clue. The idea that he has any kind of strategy is totally risable.

His bungling performance with the choice of idiots like Tony Lit and his minder Shapps would have earned him swift sacking from any commercial business.

Let's get rid of Cameron! If we don't we're finished.

Even I could not have imagined that DC would apparently self-destruct in such a spectacular way over the comments of an apparent non-entity!

Wow! So will there now be a serious opponent to Brown rising from the ashes of the Cameron Conservative Party?

BloodyMinded, Your anti-Cameron rhetoric would be comical if it were not so damaging. Do you think you could lead the Conservative party? Have you any idea how difficult David Cameron's job is? He has to do a very delicate balancing act. Its easy to sit on the sidelines and take snipes at David Cameron. You just don't understand what the job entails.

'Common Sense':
"Are there any Cameron critics on this site who are not either (a) extreme right wing revolutionary defeatists..."

As an extreme right wing revolutionary defeatist myself, I have to say I think Miraj went well OTT, well beyond constructive criticism.

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