Strong words from Cameron in defence of Israel

David Cameron gave some very forthright and encouraging answers yesterday when interviewed by Danny Finkelstein at the Conservative Friends of Israel's annual business lunch. It is one of the big events of the year, the 500 guests included William Hague and George Osborne, half the Conservative MPs and 30 PPCs.

The Party's proud "Zionist" tradition:

“If what you mean by Zionist, someone who believes that the Jews have a right to a homeland in Israel and a right to their country then yes I am a Zionist and I’m proud of the fact that Conservative politicians down the ages have played a huge role in helping to bring this about."

"There is something deep in our Party’s DNA that believes in Israel, the right of Israel to exist, the right of Israel to defend itself and that a deal should only happen if it means that Israel is really allowed to have peace within secure borders and real guarantees about its future."

Israel and Hamas just don't compare:

“The West has to understand that there isn’t an equivalence between a democratically elected Government of Israel, a state of Israel that is a democracy, that’s a member of the United Nations, that has a totally legitimate right to exist and defend itself – there is no equivalence between that and a group like Hamas. When it comes to Hamas we have to be very clear about the Quartet principles, until they recognise the state of Israel, until they put an end to violence and accept previous agreements, they really have to move toward those principles in a big way before they should get any Western money and Western support”

No justification for the boycott by the UCU (Trots, bunch of loons):

“What’s disturbing about it, is it is something that is happening here in the United Kingdom and it’s something that has absolutely no justification because Israel is a democratic country and these Trots as you put it are treating Israel as some sort of pariah state and that is completely wrong. So I have no hesitation in saying yes it may be a bunch of loons but actually what they are doing is profoundly wrong, profoundly damaging and also I think sometimes attacks on Israel can spill over into Antisemitism, to be frank about it. I think our Mayor in this great city of London, I think sometimes he is guilty of that.”

Elements of the Israeli operation in the Second Lebanon War were disproportionate:

“Israel was under attack, Israel had a right to respond and a right to take out Hizbullah as much as it could. It had a right to do those things but I think there is a duty to try and do so proportionately – it's incredibly difficult when you are facing that sort of situation but it did seem to me there were literally things that happened that were disproportionate and a mistake – some of the Lebanese army units were hit and the cluster bombs that were used. I think disproportionate was the right word – I know this was not universally popular. What we said was accurate and right but we have to set it in the very clear context that we support Israel and that Israel has a right to respond when it is under attack."

Comments

[Simon Newman]

I agree with the above - I'm not sure 'disproportionate' is a good word to use re the Lebanon war but I think it's correct that Israel was wrong to extend attacks from Hizbollah to Lebanese civil infrastructure, especially civil infrastructure outside Hizbollah controlled areas, such as the Beirut airport. I don't think it was justified morally, it was a PR disaster, and I think it did not achieve any useful goal. That is not to deny Israel's right to defend itself against Hizbollah attack.

[Reagan Fan]

Good strong support from Cameron there, very welcome. Any moves to bring the likes of Syria or the Palestinian state into the peaceful ranks of regional co-existent countries such as Jordan and Egypt should always be accompanied with this stong and vocal support for Israel. As the only country in the region even vaguely resembling our tradition of free markets and liberal democracy Israel deserves our support and should never feel that a path to a wider peace puts that in question.

[Adam S13]

Thank you david for your support for the State of Israel, trust me we need it because there is alot of Israel bashing by the left wing British media and the one sided view of the bbc that does not give any sort of balanced reporting and by doing so infuriates British muslems and left wing idiots to make the lives of the Jewish community alot tougher and also gives them the excuse for more 7/7s because they believe everything the beeb tells them even if its all lies like the footage and reporting during invasion of Lebanon that they never appologised for and I am sure you have seen it with the so called Jenin massacre when the bbc said Israel had killed 300 or so Palestinians when in fact the number was around 15 militants so please help us clear the ru bb(c)ish and lets have a bit of truth for once. So when you are PM lets do some good and for IDS COYS he should know what that means.

[Reagan Fan]

Well if he knows what IDS COYS are he is one up on me!

[malcolm]

Me too!

[Victoria Street]

Iain Duncan Smith Come On You Spurs ?

[Fair Play]

The stealing of land from the Palestinians by Israel, by building a wall and settlements undermines much latent good will towards Israel. The Nazis had a word for this kind of action.
They called it 'lebensraum'.
It gives terrorists a concrete grievance against Israel. This is reflected on to Western countries and we are now paying a heavy price for this situation.

[Traditional Tory]

I think Cameron - in common with some previous Tory leaders - is allowing himself to be far too closely drawn in to taking a partisan stance on this conflict.

Of course we all support Israel's right to exist and her right to defend herself, but that's as far as it should go. Israel is one among many other foreign countries all of which have a right to expect impartial treatment from any future Conservative government.

Words matter, and Cameron made a grave mistake in explicily aligning the party with 'Zionism'. His qualification (which would make me a 'Zionist' also) will be forgotten immediately.

'I am a Zionist' will be long remembered.

[Adam S13]

Nice 1 Victoria you really do know your stuff...

[powellite]

Fair Play

The West Bank and Gaza were won in a defensive war. The Israelis also gave Gaza to the control of the Palestinians two years ago. How is that equivalent to Germany invading Poland, France, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, the Soviet Union, Norway, Dennmark and a few others?

[Adam S13]

The stealing of land from the Palestinians by Israel, by building a wall and settlements undermines much latent good will towards Israel. The Nazis had a word for this kind of action.
They called it 'lebensraum'.
It gives terrorists a concrete grievance against Israel. This is reflected on to Western countries and we are now paying a heavy price for this situation.

I cannot understand why people compare Israel with nazi Germany all the time like our friend the Leftie who wrote the above blog so
lets get this right, China, Iran, Russia, SUDAN, and so many other countries that commit crimes against humanity everyday dont get compared to nazi's why Israel, are you a friend of george galloway, tony benn and red ken?

[finsalscollons]

Well, at last somebody who is not afraid to say some truths.

It's undeniable that Israel had committed some big mistakes and even crimes but the loudest voices against these has been those of Israeli citizens. Because Israel is a democracy and freedom of expression is guaranteed.

This is very different than the Arab countries when the only possible demonstrations are those which are against the West and Israel, which are the scapegoats of the failure of Arab regimes.

Islamists have an agenda. First, Israel. Then, Spain (Al-Andalus). Then, Europe. Then, the world. (Do you remember that Muslim demonstration in London with banners saying "Islam will dominate the world"?)

Don't believe me. Read the Islamist blogs and Web pages and get to your own conclusions.

If Israel is conquered, then it would be our turn.

[Bob B]

On the circumstances concerning the foundation of the state of Israel, I suggest David Cameron would do well to read Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall - Israel and the Arab World (Penguin 2001).

Avi Shlaim, who holds dual British-Israeli citizenship, is professor of international relations at St Anthony's College, Oxford. The book includes this passage about an event at Qibya in October 1953 in the early military career of Ariel Sharon:

". . Unit 101 was commanded by an aggressive and ambitious young major named Ariel Sharon. Sharon’s order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses, and inflict heavy casualties on its inhabitants. His success in carrying out this order surpassed all expectations. The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was revealed only during the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to a pile of rubble: forty-five houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civiliains, two-thirds of them women and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they had no idea that anyone was hiding in the houses. The UN observer who inspected the reached a different conclusion: ‘One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them.’” [p.91]

On Zionism, I found Gerald Kaufman's speech in the House of Commons on 16 April 2002 educative:
http://www.deiryassin.org/gkaufman.html

In the news today, I read that Ehud Barak is now back again as leader of the Labour Party in Israel:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6743365.stm

When Barak was previously leader and prime minister of Israel (1999-2000), a visit to Israel, Gaza and the West Bank by a US-based human rights group, Physicians for Human Rights (PHR), led them to make this report in November 2000:

"The PHR team found that the Israel Defense Force (IDF) has used live ammunition and rubber bullets excessively and inappropriately to control demonstrators, and that based on the high number of documented injuries to the head and thighs, soldiers appear to be shooting to inflict harm, rather than solely in self-defense. . . "
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/library/documents/reports/report-useofforce-israel.pdf

[Adam S13]

And us British are Saints and do not have a history of violence? Wake up Jew hater....
I can also cut and paste propaganda from the WWW.

[Yogi]

I thought I would never agree with cameron - but on this one, he is absolutely right. Israel has a right to defend itself and so it shall.

The Palestinian people were essentially let down (and forced to live in squalor) by their Arab brethren. The autocratic Arab states used Israel as an excuse to stifle their own people.

And now, Israel is the vanguard against Islamic extremism. We cannot afford to see Israel weaken. Well done cameron.

[Bob B]

I have been debating online for more than 10 years now.

From that experience I've learned that it can be absolutely guaranteed that any criticism I venture of the state of Israel or the behaviour of Israeli politicians - albeit with links to extensive, robust documentation - will lead to me being called "antisemitic", "a jew hater", "a friend of David Irving" etc etc..

The safe and solid conclusion is that the case I make is basically sound and irrefutable when the response back is just facile abuse. After this, I must also conclude that Jonathan Sacks, Britain chief Rabbi, must also be antisemitic by the same logic:

"Britain's chief rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, today delivers an unprecedentedly strong warning to Israel, arguing that the country is adopting a stance 'incompatible' with the deepest ideals of Judaism, and that the current conflict with the Palestinians is 'corrupting' Israeli culture."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,781113,00.html

As the Party slogan had it in George Orwell's 1984: Ignorance is Strength

[Traditional Tory]

Wake up Jew hater....

That is utterly unnecessary, but so, oh so typical.

As somebody states above, the most trenchant critics of aggressive Israeli policies are often Israeli Jews, and the abuse and threats with which they have to put up is quite appalling.

In my experience the very worst abuse deployed on the internet often comes from gentiles who, for various and often oddball reasons, see themselves as 'Protectors of Israel'

However their motivation is very often simple anti-Muslim racism.

[Sally Roberts]

...and well done Yogi for expressing your support!

[Adam S13]

I never said Israel were saints did I?

[Adam S13]

Traditional Tory? dont you mean New Labour!

[powellite]

Bob B

I'd be very grateful if you could condemn the actions of Palestinian terrorists, as well as those of the state of Israel? If you believe that what Israel has done is wrong, then would you care to denounce the thousands of people killed by suicide bombers, the daily random attempts at murder through Kassam rockets, the rejection of the 2000 Camp David peace deal by Yasser Arafat, and the beliefs of Hamas and others in wishing to wipe out the state of Israel & all of its Jewish inhabitants?

[Adam S13]

Well said Powellite, it is always one sided.

[powellite]

By way of follow-up, the point Cameron makes about equivalence is amply illustrated by this just in from the Jerusalem Post:

"The Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency) announced Wednesday that it had arrested two Palestinian women who were planning a double suicide bombing in Tel Aviv in late May.

One of the women was a 39-year-old mother of eight in her ninth month of pregnancy, and the other was a 30-year-old mother of four. Both were arrested at Erez Crossing."

Is this the sort of thing that Israelis do? Thankfully many Palestinians do not condone actions such as this, but is it really Israeli 'occupation' which leads a pregnant mother to blow herself and her child to bits, as Jenny Tonge and other believe?

[Traditional Tory]

Are you seriously suggesting that Israel's actions should be judged in comparison with these maniacs?

I believe that Israel should be judged in comparison with the western democracies.

[powellite]

Trad Tory

I take your point, but let me ask you this: how many other western democracies face suicide attacks on a weekly basis (most of which are foiled by the excellent Israeli security forces and go unreported in the rest of the world)? How many other western countries have rocket attacks against them every day? How many other countries face enemies such as Iran whose leader wishes to annihilate them? How many other western countries are refused diplomatic recognition by Arab and Muslim countries simply on the basis of their existence?

In the face of all of these things, it's remarkable that Israel is restrained as it is. What would your response be?

[Bob B]

"I'd be very grateful if you could condemn the actions of Palestinian terrorists, as well as those of the state of Israel?"

C'mon. Wake up to the realities. The foundation of Israel was steeped in blood long before the manifestation of Palestinian suicide bombers:

Consider the sinking of the Patria in Haifa harbour - an early example of a Haganah atrocity and in 1940 when Britain was already at war against Nazi Germany:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patria_disaster

"In January 1941, Stern attempted to make an agreement with the German Nazi authorities, offering to 'actively take part in the war on Germany's side' in return for helping Jewish refugees to come to Israel into a Jewish State. Another attempt to contact the Germans was made in late 1941, but there is no record of a German response in either case."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern

Terrorist bombing of the King David Hotel, Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 proved that terrorism pays - the organiser of that atrocity, Menachem Begin, went on to become prime minister of Israel 1977-82:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

The deir Yassin atrocity in April 1948:
http://www.deiryassin.org/mas.html

The Qibya massacre in October 1953 - Ariel Sharon implicated: see above for citation of Avi Shlaim: The Iron Wall.

"The 1982 massacres of Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila refugee camps claimed the lives of at least 800 civilians, murdered by Lebanese Christian militiamen allied to Israel during its brief occupation of the Lebanese capital, Beirut. The killings are considered the worst atrocity of Lebanon's 15-year civil war and perhaps during the entire Middle East conflict. . . Mr Sharon resigned his post after an Israeli commission of inquiry established that he bore indirect responsibility for the deaths for 'having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance' by the militias when he allowed them into the camps."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1779713.stm

"Khiam prison was a detention and interrogation centre during the years of the Israeli occupation in Southern Lebanon. From 1985 until the Israeli withdrawal this May, thousands of Lebanese were held in Khiam without trial. Most of them were brutally tortured - some of them died. Israel has always sought to escape responsibility for what was done in Khiam; Israel Accused asks where the blame for what Amnesty International calls 'war crimes' really lies."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1002463.stm

The PHR report in November 2000 quoted above.

The Lebanon War last summer - in which approximately 10 times as many Lebanese were killed compared with Israeli fatalities - and a third were children, according to UN reports.

And so it goes on and on. At the UN debate in November 1947 on the future of Palestine, the then British government abstained on the substantive motion to partition Palestine saying that partisition would lead to continuing conflict - which has proved to be a thoroughly sound judgement about the future. As the situation stands today, I doubt that a two-state solution for Palestine is feasible now.

Btw can anyone here seriously believe that calling me a "jew hater" is going to compensate for this appalling documented history of atrocities.

[Deputy Editor]

IDS' article on Israel being the most vulnerable nation on the planet at the time of the second Lebanon war was one of the most viewed and commented on articles we've ever had on CH. Might be worth a look...

[Traditional Tory]

I sympathise with their position and admire their tenacity but I do not accept that their struggle is our struggle.

Ultimately demographic change will doom the Jewish national state and these sacrifices will have been for nothing.

[powellite]

Bob B

Whilst I accept that someone could take serious issue with what Israel does and has done, I'm very sorry that you believe that it is a justification for mass-murder to take place. I was always taught that the deliberate murder of innocents was something which could not be tolerated, and it's something I still hold to. I fervently hope that you will do so too, and I would invite you again to condemn unequivocally the actions of Palestinian terrorists in murdering innocents.

[Ash Faulkner]

Bob B, I thought you were going to come back with a balanced reflection on the actions of Palestinian terrorists, too. Sadly not.

"C'mon. Wake up to the realities. The foundation of Israel was steeped in blood long before the manifestation of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that as thinly veiled justification for terrorism - if not that, at least an alleviation of responsibility on the terrorist's part. There is no excuse for terrorism.

I believe Israel has a right to exist, and I think a two state solution is the only viable one - Gaddaffi's idea of a Federal Holy Land was an interesting idea, but I don't see it happening. What everyone has to accept is that, like it or not, Israel exists. We see the same line of argument on troop withdrawl from Iraq and Trident renewal - people do not like the original action, so they act accordingly 'oh just pull out of Iraq', 'get rid of nuclear weapons and Kim will have a change of heart'.

Israel exists. I personally feel it has a right to. Whether people agree or not, that doesn't change the fact it is there. All plans must accept this fact, otherwise we'll get nowhere.

[James]

Boris Johnson summed it up very neatly in his Telegraph column at the time of the last Lebanon bombing.

Every time an Israeli bomb killed an innocent Lebanese civilian, it was because it missed its target.

Every time a Hizbollah rocket killed an innocent Israeli citizen, it was because it hit its target.

The two sides are not morally equivalent.

Israel may be hamfisted and disproportionate at times, but then so is the US (and so are we) in Iraq and Afghanistan!

[Bob B]

I absolutely condemn ALL terrorism and atrocities, including the atrocities, terrorism and torture inflicted directly or indirectly by Israelis on their adversaries - that's the big difference between me and the pervasive activists in the Israel lobby.

My criticisms of Israel and Israelis are largely based on what I've learned from jews like Gerald Kaufman, Avi Shlaim and the Jews For Justice For Palestine - and all praise be unto them for publicising the truth about these matters.

While we are about it, perhaps someone here can help to illuminate this amazing bit of history:

"[Robert] Maxwell was given a funeral in Israel better befitting a head of state than a publisher, as described by author Gordon Thomas:

"On November 10, 1991, Maxwell’s funeral took place on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, the resting place for the nation’s most revered heroes. It had all the trappings of a state occasion, attended by the country’s government and opposition leaders. No fewer than six serving and former heads of the Israeli intelligence community listened as Prime Minister Shamir eulogized: 'He has done more for Israel than can today be said' (Gideon's Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad, St. Martin's Press, 1999).

"Maxwell's death triggered a flood of revelations about his controversial business dealings and activities. It emerged that, without adequate prior authorisation, he had used hundreds of millions of pounds from his companies' pension funds to finance his corporate debt, his frantic takeovers and his lavish lifestyle. Thousands of Maxwell employees lost their pensions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maxwell

[Adam]

What's your point Bob B? That Israel is, in your view, so morally corrupt and bankrupt that it ought to cease to exist?

Israel is a legitimate state. It isn't going anywhere.

Withdrawing to the 1967 borders sounds like a nice idea, but experience of withdrawal from southern Lebanon and Gaza demonstrates that it in all likelihood wouldn't be enough. Indeed, if Gaza is anything to go by, withdrawal from the West Bank may well unleash a bloody civil war where the participants take time out from killing each other to prove their worthiness to lead by attacking Israel.

What's your solution?

[Tory T]

Bob B,

You can easily trumpet what you claim are individual acts of Israeli aggression, but you refuse to condemn Palestinian agression explicitly and by name, only lumping them in with "all terrorists".

To me that's a great big red anti-Semitic flag right there.

Palestinian terrorism. Not "suicide bombers" - they target and kill Israeli civilians. Will you or won't you explicitly condemn Palestinian terrorism, as such, and specifically Palestinian?

Otherwise, yes, I certainly put you in the anti-Semitic bracket.

[Reagan Fan]

What's your point, Bob B? So Maxwell was a crook, not everyone thought so the day he died. As your own cut'n'paste job says "Maxwell's death triggered a flood of revelations about his controversial business dealings and activities" - i.e. it wasn't widely accepted before (albeit some dissident voices did shout about it at Private Eye for example). Are you really trying to say that Israel would deliberately lionise a money-grabbing thief? If you are the accusations of prejudice above may not be so wide of the mark!

[John]

Bob B,

Personally I have no particular allegiance to either Israel or Palestine in this. I want peace and self determination for all. So let me ask you some questions.

If a terrorist group wanted to destroy the United Kingdom, would you put the criticism of the actions of British forces above and beyond the carnage caused by the terrorist attacks upon this country?

Would you unilaterally accept the criticism of our European partners or the USA eventhough we were under attack and act in a conciliatory manner to those terrorists even if that increases the risk of attacks on the innocent in this country?

Furthermore, would you seriously expect our Government to negotiate with a group who are insistent on taking away your country and pursue their goals by subjecting you and your fellow citizens to frequent suicide bombings and missile attacks?

Finally, how do you think your standpoint of highlighting some of the dreadful moments in Israel's turbulent history are going to help in brokering peace and freedom for the Palestinians?

[James H]

Here's another point Ladies and Gentlemen: What is the legitimacy of even believing in a two-state solution? Prior to the six days war, the West Bank was occupied by Jordan. This occupation was illegal. If you look at the San Remo Accords that set out the formalised borders of the new Middle Eastern states in 1920, it was agreed that the Palestine mandate would encompass all land up to the River Jordan; the state of Transjordan did not include the West Bank. Transjordan seized the West Bank in the Israeli war of independence in 1948 - formally annexing it in 1950, an annexation that only Britain recognised.

All the events of 1967 did was replace one form of illegal occupation with another. Why is there a 'right' for a new Palestinian state to include this land?

[TomTom]

The stealing of land from the Palestinians by Israel,

So your are an Irredentist then ? Do you support the Sudeten Germans in their struggle to recover their land in Czechoslovakia from which they were expelled in 1945-48 ?

Or do you support the Poles seeking to recover their ancient city of Lwow from Ukraine ?

The only country that would benefit if Israel did not exist is Syria which would have borders with Saudi Arabia. It is Lebanon which the French created on Syrian territory - redrawing maps will be bloodier than Iraq has been - do you have children willing to fight ?

[Dontmakemelaugh]

Even Human Rights Watch has now been forced to condemn the Palestinians:

The Human Rights Watch organization Wednesday condemned Hamas and Fatah for committing ‘serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes’ in violence in Gaza in recent days. It also took the Islamic Jihad and the Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades to task for a June 9 incident in which gunmen used a jeep bearing ‘TV’ insignias to allow them to approach and attack an IDF post in southern Israel, calling it a ‘serious violation of the laws of war.’ In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals,’ the organization said in a statement.

The above is a extract from today's entry in Melanie Phillips Diary. It is also reported that some of the Palestinian elite wish that the Israelis would return to govern. Read it all.

Bob B and some of the commenters: you are so one sided that I can only conclude that listening to the BBC has addled your thinking, or perhaps you have a death wish?
Even the Boy has seen the light and isn't so "disproportionate" as he was.

[Rachel Joyce]

I was there and I thought DC was excellent. He knew alot of the detail of what he was talking about - not just full of gut reactions. He rightly pointed out the fact that Israel is a democracy that should supported, and that sorting out the Israeli- Palestine issue is not going to sort out terrorism by itself - Osama Bin Laden didn't get into this because of Israel - the lack of democracy and the despotic corruption in most muslim countries is a key cause.

[Bob B]

"That Israel is, in your view, so morally corrupt and bankrupt that it ought to cease to exist?"

Good grief - for heaven's sake look at the evidence I've posted above and this:

Yitzak Rabin, prime minister of Israel, was assassinated in 1995 by a right-wing fanatic evidently enraged at the prospect of progress in the peace process with the Palestinians.

Just in the news today, Simon Peres has had to take on the presidency of Israel as the incumbent, Moshe Katsav, had to step down pending a trial on an indictment for rape:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6747517.stm

Haim Ramon, the justice minister at the outbreak of the Lebanon war last summer, had to resign after a conviction on charges of sexual harrassment of a subordinate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6316563.stm

Sharon's son, Omri, was jailed on corruption charges:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4712698.stm

On the compounding evidence, Israeli politicians are completely morally bankrupt.

The bizarre excuse of Boris Johnson that hundreds of Lebanese civilians and children were slaughtered by accident is at odds with the UN reporting the widespread distribution of cluster bombs by the Israelis just before hostilities ended. Boris would do better to lay off the viagra if that is the best defence he can mount on behalf of Israel.

Frankly, The Israel lobby bleating in unison, like the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm: Israeli atrocities goood, Palestinaian atrocities baaad, isn't very convincing. In the face of all the evidence, Cameron risks looking at best foolish by backing Israel.

At the UN debate in Novermber 1947 on the future of Palestine, Britain's then government warned that partition would lead to continuing conflict, a wise assessment at the time that has proved to be well-founded by what has happened since.

[Bob B]

You must be so disappointed that your side lost in 1945, Bob B.

[Bob B]

"You must be so disappointed that your side lost in 1945, Bob B."

It's precisely that sort of pathetic comment that proves the complete moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the Israel lobby.

I repeat, most of what I've learned about the history of Israeli atrocities has come from jews like Avi Shlaim, Gerald Kaufman and Jews For Justice For Palestine.

When it comes to it, the history of serial atrocities is well documented. Pointing to the history of atrocities doesn't logically imply that I'm therefore a supporter of National Socialism or a holocaust denier - it happened that a V1 Flying bomb landed down one end of the road in London where I lived in June 1944 and then in January 1945, a V2 ballistic rocket landed down the other.

Why would I want to support Hitler or fascism when I later counted German refugee families among my boyhood friends and then among my girlfriends?

[Adam]

What happens to all the Israelis once you've dissolved the state of Israel?

[Bob B]

It won't be a matter of me dissolving the state of Israel - more a question of what happens when the international community gets thoroughly sick of tolerating the atrocities of the corrupt, racist state of Israel.

A far more relevant and pressing issue is what is going to happen to Israelis who are presently occupying land conquered in the Six Day War in 1967.

[Patsy Sergeant]

'Bob B' - It is interesting, given your apparent sympathies, to see how at this very moment, the Palestinians are demonstrating (entirely amongst themselves) how absolutely qualified they are to run a country! Tribal factionalsim, running around shooting at anything and everything, throwing people off roofs (apparently), they won't be able to govern a country until they realise it involves paper and pen, and not endless guns.

Of course I am sure you will organise an argument to 'prove' it is all the fault of Israel.

[Matt Davis]

Bob B it would seem from the evidence of what you have posted on this thread that the racist, in a particularly pernicious, trotskyite, way, is you.

However I'm not going to get into arguing the case itself I just wish to say that I support Cameron's comments 100% and am much heartened to know that that is what he believes and the Conservative party continues to stand for.

[Adam]

Come on Bob, have the courage of your convictions and actually type out what you think plainly for all to see.

You'd quite like to see Israel cease to exist. As such, your 'solutions' can ignore the need for Israel to be secure because you not concerned with it being secure.

Kenya by all accounts is a pretty corrupt place, what bearing does that have on our relations with them? What about South Africa given the unpleasant things the ANC used to get up to? What about the central Asian republics of the ex-Soviet Union?

[John Irvine]

Israel is in the front line of the war against Islam and the Muslim atrocities in UK have proved that we're not far behind.

The big difference is that under Bliar we shilly shally around while the Israelis ACT. They know their enemy and they know how to deal with them.

Bob B is typical of the kind of clown who think you can make peace with (a) Hitler (b) The Alien Menace which threatens Israel Britain and the whole of Europe.

We can learn from Israel. Unite with the Israeli fighters against Terror.

[Tory T]

Bob B

I repeat my call. If you are not an anti-semite, specifically condemn Palestinian terrorism, not just "all terrorism", and condemn the Palestinian bombers as murderers, not just "suicide" bombers. They kill Israelis, not merely themselves.