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Many former Grammar schools are now excellent independent schools.
The Conservative Party could propose Grants and Bursaries (as recommended in the recent Charity Commission Discussion document) to support bright children from lower income families at such existing schools; this is selection by academic ability like selection by sporting ability which is proposed by the Labour Government.

In his interview with David Cameron on the Today programme this morning, John Humphrys missed a golden opportunity to expose the former's phoney arguments about grammar schools for the cant that they are. It was when Humphrys was suggesting that the composition of Cameron's shadow cabinet belied his commitment to social mobility, as so many of its members were privately educated, including five at Eton. But, the increasingly irate Cameron spluttered (and he was spluttering at this point, as you can hear for yourself on the playback), the shadow cabinet is selected on merit. So, it is perfectly OK for Cameron to select his shadow cabinet on merit, but not for schools to do the same with their pupils. Cameron isn't interested in social mobility; he is only interested in gaining power and he thinks - mistakenly in my view - that supporting selection on academic grounds is electoral suicide. Of course, another consequence of sticking to the failed non-selective model in state schools will be an even higher proportion of privately educated men and women going to the best universities and obtaining the best jobs, probably including the shadow cabinet/cabinet. What would a conspiracy theorist make of it all?

I posted another way of looking at the "traditionalists" on the press conference thread, to argue that the die hard supporters of Grammars have a totally tribal view. As one of them is my partner, my post might even be worth a look, as it IS going to happen, whether it be by a nulab, GordoLab or Tory Government!

And, Geoffery Warner, the "non-selected" schools WILL in fact BE selected, by MERIT, ie those with the academic bent will be SELECTED for the top academic stream. They dont need a separate school, a separate bus to get there, or the separarate and distinctive uniform that put them in the line of the yobs fire. Academic stream for the many, not the few.David Cameron is right!! Humphreys is a very clever protagonist who gets paid to destroy anyone who does not agree with his world view. If Cameron had said that he was going to support Grammars, we would have heard him shooting down that stance with - how divisive, that only benefits the kids who have developed that far by 11 years, What about the rest?? Then it appears as if he is turning the sound down on his opponents mike!!

Just listened to the John Humphries/Cameron interview this am.
I thought Cameron handled it well, I think Humphries, in his desire to cause dissension, lost an opportunity for his listeners to listen to a rational and informative debate about education
It really doesn't add to the debate to try to reintroduce a class war, it really is so out of date now

May I be permitted to reply to Annabel Herriot's comment on my contribution? Streaming within schools is not sufficient. The majority of comprehensive schools are already streamed, especially in the two years preceding the GCSE examination and the results are not impressive. The most intelligent pupils need to be concentrated in special schools - as, indeed, do the least intelligent in theirs - so that their needs can be met by specialist teachers who are not expected and may not necessarily be qualified to teach over the whole ability range. I also find your concern about separate schools encouraging the vindictiveness of yobs quite baffling. Surely you cannot be suggesting that we should design our educational system with reference to the supposed reaction of yobs? Even if it were proven that the latter treat their brighter peers with more consideration if they are all together in the same school, I wouldn't accept that as an argument in favour of non-selective schools. In reality, of course, bright children are routinely bullied at such schools just because they are bright. There are, after all, far more opportunities to beat up someone who is at the same school than someone who isn't.

Exactly Geoffrey, which is why I asked the question of David Willetts as to how he was going to manage this - the only downside.
Streaming/setting for the last 2 years is not enough. You need to be tranfering as soon as you see that spark. Actually, we need to be encouraging competition within schools, to aspire to the top stream,as one need application as well as inspiration.

whatever happened to vouchers?

Thank you, Annabel, for your response. We will have to disagree on the need for separate schools, but I am with you 100% on the question of discipline. The present government has been banging on for years about "zero tolerance" of bad behaviour in schools, yet I still hear from teachers how difficult it is to get rid of persistent disruptives, let alone provide a satisfactory alternative for them. The usual ploy is simply to send them to another school where they can plague the staff and pupils there. Whatever the type of school, a handful of troublemakers can wreck the education of children of all abilities.

To "jp floru" posting at 8.21. Yes vouchers could be a good idea but to avoid gappy provision resulting from people trying to use vouchers, the supply side needs addressing. This is why we first have to improve most schools not a few. This is what Willetts is getting at. It is the right move as some of us have been tirelessly pointing out for days and will continue to do so.

Matt

Annabels post at 10.17 is well made. If DC had said he was building more grammar schools much of the media would be howling now about him being elitist, a toff etc etc etc

Oh well.....funny old world,

Matt

What a shame "Anon" chooses to speak utter nonsense that I faced "expulsion" from the Conservative party over a "race-row". I wrote a letter to the Sutton Guardian because I am worried about unfettered immigration - nothing whatsoever to do with race at all. I RESIGNED over GRAMMAR SCHOOLS - something which "Anon" probably knows nothing about.

Keep your ill-informed comments to yourself in future please.

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