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Matt Davis @ 19.16----Cameron....to make a firm commitment to offer the British people a binding referendum on continued membership.

This is why Switzerland with its system of direct democracy which allowed them to say no to EU membership in 1992, is now along with Norway the most prosperous country in Europe.
Politicians in this country like to talk about stakeholders and focus groups but they shy away from the freedom given to a people by frequent referenda.

"With all her attention on the single market, Mrs Thatcher did not realise at the Milan Council that it was being used to lure her into a corner, where she could be forced to accept a new treaty"

You know, you make me laugh. When you talk of her legacy, she is the visionary leader of the 20th Century who could do no wrong, yet when she signs a treaty that gave away more sovereignty to Europe than any treaty before or since, or ever will again, she was somehow hoodwinked into making an error of schoolgirl proportions? She never can do no wrong, can she??

Don't make me laugh. She was a pragmatist on Europe until near the end. When she got radical, you dumped her, rightly so. Now, its the deluded followers of her, who are guilty about doing the right thing at the time, who are trying to cling to her misguided radical final months - admit you did the right thing in dumping her, in being pragmatic, and that you have been unelectable and on the fringe of British politics ever since the 1992 intake thought her radicalism was something to be admired, rather than questioned, and completely destroyed the Tory Party from the inside out.

"Margaret showed her dislike and sceptical attitude to the EU and won three elections."

This would be against the Labour Party that pledged withdrawal from Europe, would it?

What's "pragmatic" about selling out to the EU?

Your obviously a socialist anyway, so why would we wish to take advice from you?

I would have preferrd Mrs Thatcher not to have been dumped by the Tories. If she had won the 1992 election we would not have had John Major, and I suspect all that went with his government including the cones hotline and Maastricht. If she lost the election we may have got a one term Labour government which would have been preferable to three terms of Blair.

UKIP are very dedicated and even brave,look at their position,they are up against the Conservatives,Labour and the Lib-Dems,oh,and lets not forget they are also up against the communist style European Union.


Not too shaby an outfit really UKIP.

"Your (sic) obviously a socialist anyway, so why would we wish to take advice from you?" Too right! The same goes to your friends in UKUP, Mr. Irvine.

What a tawdry little thread. As a proud eurosceptic I will continue to see UKIP as the enemy and treat anyone who gives them kind words similarly. A vote for UKIP is a vote for a leftist government.

Now just remember that when you go into the voting booth.

"...is now along with Norway the most prosperous country in Europe."

Norway's prosperity is not a result of its EU policy. 19% of Norway's GNP and 38% of its national budget comes from oil.

By contrast, Britain's oil jackpot only amounts to 1.5% of GDP and 2% of national budget.

Comparatively, 38% would be another £190 billion a year to spend. Where would we be if that had been the case?

"Comparatively, 38% would be another £190 billion a year to spend. Where would we be if that had been the case"

Most of it would have been given away to French farmers and Eastern Europe in extra EU contributions as we would have been judged far too rich.
By the way how large are Switzerland's oil reserves, that wasn't mentioned.

RedSam: I love the way that you Tories think the only way to defeat UKIP is to take their ground

Given your handle, RedSam, I'm guessing that you and probably wouldn't agree about very much in politics, but on this I think you at least start off in the right direction.

Firstly, has Guido's story (not to cast aspersions) been confirmed by any other source? Farage, or at least some of his raggedy band claim to act on "principle". So how come they felt in principle they could stand aside for MPs, but not for candidates, until a "peerage" was dangled in front of them? Come to think of it, does that remind you of anything in the news at the moment?

Secondly, although I've been around long enough to know that deals go on in politics, I really don't want to do a deal with a minority party, signing up to key elements of their agenda under "threat". I want to beat them. I want to concentrate on making the broad argument about a new vision for Britain that beats Labour.

Tussling with minority parties on a national level does not give us the right "voice" for an alternative government, either. Does anybody here not think that by appearing as an alternative government, presenting a strong, optimistic vision for Britain, we can make a minority party currently polling on 1% of the vote appear to be irrelevant chilren without even mentioning their name?

Thank you Tim for doing all this wonderful care in the community work for the wingnuts who need an outlet.

I think a whole separate thread every day where people with Empire Loyalist sympathies can indulge in their fantastical view of the world in safety is a great idea.

If this thread is properly signposted those of us working towards getting a Conservative government elected can read the good bits of the site without having to read the usual diatribes and blithering idiocy that passes for comment amongst blazer wearing pink gin guzzlers.

Thank you Tim for doing all this wonderful care in the community work for the wingnuts who need an outlet.

Modern, compassionate conservatism in action...

"By the way how large are Switzerland's oil reserves, that wasn't mentioned."

I was simply breaking the unproven link between EU non-membership and prosperity. If the link doesn’t stand in one case, it probably doesn’t stand in either.

I don’t know enough about Switzerland’s economy to speculate on the cause of its wealth, but why don’t you go and prove that it’s due to non-membership?

How long are we going to tolerate this tiny minority of swivel-eyed EUphiles destroying our party? Never understood why the sensible and measured argument for withdrawal is treated as the equivalent of clubbing baby seals. PLEASE stop regurgitating the imaginary statistics which the late and unlamented Heath used in support of our continued membership of this body. The fact is that UKIP voters are disaffected Tories. Cameron is a breath of fresh air, but given the failures of this government our 38% poll showing is abysmal and not enough to give us victory. Let's embrace the policy which the overwhelming majority of Tories support and win the next election. And if you don't like it, feel free to defect to the Lib Dems where you belong. That includes you, Rifkind.

Apropos cardinal sins, to paraphrase:
"What a tawdry little thread. As a proud euroREALIST I will continue to see The (non-BOO) TORIES as the enemy and treat anyone who gives them kind words similarly. A vote for Camerloonism is a vote for continued EU membership, Europlod, Euroarmy, Post Office closures, etc., etc...

Now just remember that when you go into the voting booth."

Unless DC does something sensational soon the likeliest result of the next GE will be a hung parliament. As Portillo said in the S Times yesterday, Gordon Brown will then bring in PR. At that point the Conservative Party will split into two - the Conservatives and UKIP. It would be a very brave psephologist who would then predict which of the two would have the larger vote at the following GE.

Cameron's leadership of the Party, whatever its virtues, has brought out of the woodwork a load of Europhile Conservatives who most of us had thought had been staked through the heart during the 90s and who are making up with spite for years of impotence. Like the Bourbons, they have remembered nothing and they have forgotten nothing.

If Cameron didn't want so many disaffected activists p**sing in, he shouldn't have invented the A list.

Paul Oakley; 23:10 -

Hear Hear Sir, couldn't agree more!

I keep hearing about this rush to the "centre ground".

From where I'm standing, the centre ground is a cesspit of anti-democratic values, corruption and lies. All thanks to slavish adeherance to an EU agenda that was built on a foundation of deceit in the first place.

If that's the magical centre ground, then I'd rather be standing up on the bank!

"What a tawdry little thread. As a proud eurosceptic I will continue to see UKIP as the enemy and treat anyone who gives them kind words similarly."

That's no problem because I feel exactly the same about the Eurocompliant traitors who have infiltrated my Tory Party.

I'm not aware that Heseltine's recent statement on the EU has been disowned by Cameron.

HESELTINE: "CAMERON WILL PERFORM EUROPE U-TURN"

by Paul Waugh, Deputy Political Editor, Evening Standard

MICHAEL HESELTINE hinted at yet another Tory U-turn under David Cameron yesterday, when he predicted the new leader would be a pro-European Prime Minister.

The former deputy prime minister said the next Conservative government would have to join up with centre- right governments across the continent, because to do anything else would be to 'sellout' Britain.

Mr Cameron has delighted Eurosceptics with his plan to pull Tory MEPs out of the centre-right EPP group in the European Parliament.

But Lord Heseltine said such a move would be 'wrong' and suggested that Mr Cameron would swiftly adopt a more constructive tone once in government.

He was speaking on the first day of his return to public life as chairman of a new Conservative task-force to develop policy on the inner cities .Lord Heseltine made it clear the job would not constrain him from speaking out about his differences with Mr Cameron over issues such as Europe.

'The fact that I'm responsible for this particular aspect of policy in its formative stage won't influence one whit what I say about controversial issues, if I feel strongly about them' Lord Heseltine told BBC's Radio 4 Today Programme.

The reality of modern politics was that all governments had to get on with their European colleagues, he said.

'There's a team there. They are important to you. They are making decisions. You are either in the team or you are not and if you are not in the team you are selling out British interests and David Cameron would never do that' he said.

'So, the new Conservative government when it is formed will do what every government has done since the 1960s and that is to pursue a broadly pro-European policy.'

The above reminds me of the Private Eye cover: Pic of Hezza, in garden, with a spade:
"I come to praise Caesar, not to bury him!"

QUOTE: "Why they would put up candidates against men like IDS if they were seriously interested in building a patriotic conservative alliance?"

Because a "patriotic conservative alliance" would achieve absolutely nothing in getting this country out of the superstate. There has to be a clear policy of withdrawal from the EU - anything else is kiddology. The Conservative Party supports the EU.

Not only do Blue Labour support the EU, it wants the UK to surrender its democracy and sovereignty to it.

To be in the EU, you have to accept its primacy on an every increasing number of issues.

It is a disgrace that all three branches of the LibLabCon party accept this without question.

Enough is enough. I am sick of living in a one party state and I want my country, democracy and right to self-rule back. The Conservatives are not the solution, they are part of the problem.

A recent I.T.N. opinion poll revealed that 93% of voters want Great Britain to leave the E.U.This was from a sample of over 2000. Surely this must give even the most ardent of Eorophiles food for thought, or is it a case of there's none so blind as those that will not see?

Why they would put up candidates against men like IDS if they were seriously interested in building a patriotic conservative alliance?
UKIP's primary objective is to get the UK out of the EU - IDS may or may not privately support the UK leaving the EU, I don't recall him ever actually saying that the UK should leave the EU, Margaret Thatcher and Harold Wilson similarily were people who had hope vested in them that they would reverse what had been done and under them as with other leaders, Brussels continued to consolidate it's power over the UK.

The Conservative Party contains many who continue to push for further integration and the prevailing opinion continues to reject outright any notion of withdrawal from the Council of Europe or even merely from the EU.

' The centre ground is a cesspit of anti-democratic values, corruption &lies'- Matt Davies. Of course Matt that is where the overwhelming majority of ordinary people in this country have been for many years. Your contempt for these people is revealing but not a suprise. Perhaps that's why UKIP will remain a fringe party in the forseeable future.

I make that ~124 posts inside 24 hours.

I rest my case :-)

Labour are deemed to occupy the centre ground. This is the same Labour who are under investigation for corruprion, lied about the causus belli for the iraq war, and sign up to eu directives even though they are illegal.
The Tories, under Camerloon are not significantly different. That is why they are rapidly becoming a fringe party (and already are in Scotland!).

"That is why they (the Tories) are rapidly becoming a fringe party..."

We must be living in alternative realities.

Valedictoryan, we should leave them on this thread to rant away to each other.
Just put a warning at the top pointing out that as a UKIP fringe party thread, the content will border on the "obsessional" and it is bound to cause offence to moderate readers of the site.
You can't debate with people using comments like these.
"From where I'm standing, the centre ground is a cesspit of anti-democratic values, corruption and lies."
"a load of Europhile Conservatives who most of us had thought had been staked through the heart during the 90s"

>>The centre ground is a cesspit of anti-democratic values, corruption &lies'- Matt Davies. Of course Matt that is where the overwhelming majority of ordinary people in this country have been for many years.<<

Rubbish! The so-called centre ground is a concept purely restricted to politicians. Even on these terms the most successful Conservative politician of the twentieth century occupied a position well to the right of what was even then regarded as the centre.

OTOH the man on the Clapham omnibus reading the Sun is all over the place. He wants to live in a cradle-to-grave welfare state but he would like cut price shares to be distributed by nationalised industries.

He watches Big Brother and Sky Football and would like the TV licence to be abolished.

He wants to restrict immigration and bring back capital punishment, although he probably wouldn't pull the trap. Of course he wants the NHS kept on a pedestal and totally free (to him). He doesn't believe in NHS queue-jumping, unless of course he's the queue-jumper.

He probably wants to ban 4x4s and he wants to pull out of the EU, Iraq and Afganistan.

He enjoys trips to MacDonalds and Orlando, but thinks Bush and the USA are the biggest threats to world peace since the Nazis.

It's a kind of left/right fascistic profile, which probably explains why so many Sun readers are voting BNP.

Hardly "centre ground", is it?

>>You can't debate with people using comments like these.<<

Throwing in the towel "Scotty"?

Seems that your ability to debate with anybody who doesn't believe in banging his head seven times on the floor every time the sacred and ineffable name of Cameron is mentioned is severely limited.

I'm still trying to locate this fantastically successful (and of course pro-Cameron) Conservative Association in Scotland you say you belong to, but mysteriously decline to disclose.

I think it must be called Shangri-la


Hi Tory Loyalist, misquoting me again to try and make your insults seem more credible than your lack of a good argument?

"That is why they are rapidly becoming a fringe party."

Gospel of Enoch - would you be the UKIP PPC who stood in 1997, 2001 and 2005? If so, your total poll of 942 (taking ALL 3 elections combined) makes you well placed to talk about fringe politics. I bow to your experience!

Temper, temper, "Scotty", or whatever your real name is.

I think you will find I quoted you word for word.

I don't think ToryLoyalist/Mark McCartney is really worth debating with either. He has absolutely no evidence that 'so many Sun readers are voting BNP'. This is my last comment on this increasingly surreal thread.

Same here Malcolm, still think my idea @15:01 is worth trying.

>>He has absolutely no evidence that 'so many Sun readers are voting BNP'<<

I think it's a fair assumption that the type of person who votes for the BNP in Dagenham, if he reads any newspaper at all, probably takes the Sun, if only for p3.

So sorry if I've upset you by disparaging your favourite paper, Malcolm.


>>He has absolutely no evidence that 'so many Sun readers are voting BNP'<<

I think it's a fair assumption that the type of person who votes for the BNP in Dagenham, if he reads any newspaper at all, probably takes the Sun, if only for p3.

So sorry if I've upset you by disparaging your favourite paper, Malcolm.


While people in this party, Nulab and the Dimlibs aren't prepared to bang on or even mention the EU dimension, this is the sort of thing that creeps on under the radar.

The "English Regions Network Business Plan 2005-9"

http://ern.smartregion.org.uk/page.asp?id=3

Or this:

http://www.interreg3c.net/sixcms/media.php/61/Newsletter-12-english.6658.pdf

Hey, Valedictorian - I guess the PPC you refer to is putting his money where his mouth is and standing up for his beliefs! Better to be at the start of a rising trend, than at the ignominous tail end of one... Still, keep good cheer: After more than 70 years out of office, the Liberals STILL aren't back in power, so you are unlikely to have to worry about beating that record! On the other hand, Labour took 40 years or so to form a government, so we're very optimistic at UKIP progress so far... :-)

http://e-ukip-home.blogspot.com/

According to the News of the World, Nigel Farage MEP Leader of the United Kingdom Independence Party likes forming European Unions with his lady friends. It now appears Nigel has decided to shaft UKIP members instead by making secret deals with his new found Tory friends.

Nigel's new friend Lord Pearson only joined UKIP after Nigel Farage promised that UKIP would not field candidates against Eurosceptic Tory candidates. Lord Pearson has already said he only joined UKIP as an instrument to influence Conservative policy from the outside.

UKIP members are very angry that Nigel is making secret deals with Tories and changing UKIP policy with no reference whatsoever with members.

As Nigel allows ex-Tories to use UKIP as nothing more than a Conservative Party pressure group and continues ot recruit his Tory pals while making secret deals so long standing members are resigning and leaving in disgust.

No wonder UKIP has been described as being like a bath with no plug as members continue to flow away.

>>long standing members are resigning and leaving in disgust.<<

Including you UKIP@HOME?

You must be ex-UKIP to hate them so much.

And to keep cutting and pasting the same repetitive bilge.

"And to keep cutting and pasting the same repetitive bilge" - says McCartney. People in glass houses should not throw stones! Now shoo to UKUPHome!

"Better to be at the start of a rising trend"

But didn't you start with 400 votes and go down to 217? I'd describe that as a FALLING trend...

Why are real conservatives still commenting on this thread - leave them to it.
Justin, IMHO a better apology to Andrew and other good Eurosceptic colleagues would be in order, the Ukipprs and trolls are actually quite easy to recognise, critics in the party with real concerns shouldn't be tarred with the same brush.

217, Valedictorian? Tell me, hand on heart, that you really believed your Tory candidate could win there too... or in the last seat your UKIP PPC target stood for... as for the first seat you mention, after the UKIP ppc moved on, your candidate lost, big time - I'm told the Tory ppc's wife, tired and emotinal, was telling everyone that our 60+ year old candidate -a charming lady - "cost us the seat, you bitch!!!". Your candidate wasn't reselected.

Seriously, every party has seats they consider no-hopers. Two of the three you referred to were Tory no-hopers too. As for the third, you lot were reduced to copying Blairs tactics and going for a blonde female. It worked, so I won't knock it, but she's on the slenderest of majorities - and UKIP's vote was more than the difference between 1st and 2nd place last time -bet you hope UKIP take more dim-lib than Tory votes :-)

>>Why are real conservatives still commenting on this thread - leave them to it. Justin<<

Tells us a lot about your concept of "real conservatives" Ted, if you regard Justin as one of "yours"

Having been a genuine Real Conservative and a fully paid up party member (for what that is worth) since long before Master Hinchcliffe was conceived I don't need your patronising "don't play with the nasty boys" bleat. and nor do the othe patriots who posts here.


Hi Mark ,thanks for your kind remarks earlier in the thread .Your good manners are sadly lacking in some others on this thread .Blogs are meant to be full of differing views for goodness sake.Yes Ukippers do rattle on a bit. Sadly and importantly the EU is taking away our birthright to a democratic government from us all so why not make a fuss? I can`t think of anything more important frankly.
Incidentally Farage is addressing a meeting of Conservative Party luminaries in Cameron`s constituency today -unprecedented stuff ,perhaps he can persuade them to deselect Cameron and put a genuine eurosceptic in his place !

Petrina Holdsworth,do you think that Mr Farage will ever get a UKIP MP into the Commons in the next General election?

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