Cameron distinguishes GWB from GDP

Talking about a subject Conservatives have rarely broached, David Cameron will today say that the Protestant work ethic should be replaced by a "modern vision of ethical work". He believes we should talk not just about Gross Domestic Product but about General Well-Being too, hoping to triangulate between the issues by fomenting strong relationships and progressive employment practice in order to boost productivity:

"The traditional response of the right – that government can't do much about all this and shouldn't try – is inadequate. But equally, the response of the new left – that government should regulate the specific details of working life – is too ineffective. It produces unintended consequences that end up damaging our competitiveness. It's vital to create a space... which stands firmly between regulation and indifference. I refuse to choose between the intolerant impulse to right every supposed wrong by passing new laws, and the coldly amoral refusal to even take a view on the actions of others."

The Guardian reports it as wrong-footing Gordon Brown, Sky News as going for the Feel-Good Factor, and The Times as drawing a line under Thatcher.

Deputy Editor

Comments

[Stephan]

"business leaders after all from a job perspective are interested in fulfilling their shareholders wishes which mostly are to make a return on their investments"

Exactly. And to do that, to perform well as a company, they need motivated and productive employees, and they need to avoid incurring the displeasure of the community in which they operate. They are therefore already incentivised to be good corporate citizens, without the (often inept) intervention of politicians.

[Hmmmm]

Is it just me or is Dave starting to sound Preachy? how long before he utters the words....back to basics....bets anyone?

[James Maskell]

He'll say it in a different way, without using that term, but, I do agree with you.

[Dick Wishart]

Whinge,whinge,whinge,moan,moan,moan, I see the hangers and floggers have crept out of their coffins early tonight.

[frank aylesford]

oh shades of pre-government blair! what meaningless waffle! And yes, he can afford to make this sort of comment given hos own financial status

[Hmmmm]

The more I think about it, the more cameron is sounding like the private eye vicar blair. telling us all where we have gone "personally" wrong. What we should do as individuals on the environment, on how we should seek happiness, on what we should feed our kids, padded bras, chocolate oranges etc etc...and the horrifying thing is, and this is coming next, is that he thinks its government's job to MAKE IT HAPPEN...its for your own good children, really, do as youre told....BACK TO BASICS 2, THE RETURN OF THE UNDERPANTS....

[Ted]

1 - oh God I'm in agreement with the CamSceptics - more beef Dave less dressing BUT

2 - In defence of DC he gave the speech to the Google Zeitgeist Europe conference - unlikely a hard hitting scial reform speech would have gone down well.*

*for the UKIP & BNP visitors who might se Zeitgeist as an unwarranted intrusion of foreign European words it means "spririt of the age"

In which case Dave is really on the button in capturing the developing desire for better quality of life - work/life balance, less crime on steets, clean air and green issues etc. Now if only the state would stop taxing me so much, hadn't changed the law on early retirement (some of us want pensions before we are 55) and I could realise my assets and retire to the banks of the Kafue to wake up to hippos snorting & roaring....

[Jack Stone]

Reading three quarters of thses comments you would think you were on a Labour supporting site not a Conservative one.
David Cameron is perfectly right in what he says. We must look to improving peoples quality of life not just preaching about money all the time.
People on this site need to learn and learn quickly that if the party is to be successful it as got to be about more than tax cuts, Europe, bringing back hanging and being nasty to illegal immigrants.
Don`t we want to try to appeal to the best in people by bringing out the best in ourselves.
I want this country to be the best and to feel good about the country.Having a Conservative government will only make this country what it should be and Cameron as the ideas not just to win but to make things better.

[Hmmmm]

Young Jacky Stone...so cute and cuddly...where do you get off telling me how to live my life?? keep it to yourself mate...you sound like some kind of Tony Robbins automaton...I dont need you to tell me this stuff, I need you to get me value for money for my taxes, to defend me from my enemies, and deal with global trade and diplomatic issues. I dont need you telling me what kind of underpants to wear thanks, I can make those decisions for myself...

[Burkean]

Haven't seen the speech yet but did he really call for the end of the protestant work ethic? That says simply that hard work and self discipline lead to happiness and prosperity. I can't imagine a more conservative maxim. What on earth is wrong with it?

[malcolm]

Whose Tony Robbins Hmmmmmm?

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Henry - surely you mean 'because' not 'although' - then you clearly have an area to focus on that government can get involved in.<<<<
China certainly hasn't got where it is through people working short hours, surely scrapping limits on working time and abolishing the minimum wage as well as general labour market deregulation are really important steps towards boosting the UK's economy - scrap The Health & Safety Executive & the dti and focus on safety in industry, employers have a duty of care anyway, why not leave this up to private prosecutions and prosecutions under general criminal offences not specifically employment related ones.

[Ted]

China got where it is today through an artificially low exchange rate, a huge under-employed but skilled workforce, a willingness to trample peoples rights and an approach to politics somewhat nearer 18th Century France than the 21st Century.

The protestant work ethic surely promised rewards in heaven not on earth. Its not the 21st century Zeitgeist is it?

[buxtehude]

Dick Wishart, Jack Stone... What would it take to get you to engage your brains? People argue very reasonably here about what he has said, and all you can manage is vacuous put-downs. This is a website for debate, not for Stepford Wives to practice their curtsies.

[Richard]

"Dick Wishart, Jack Stone... What would it take to get you to engage your brains? People argue very reasonably here about what he has said, and all you can manage is vacuous put-downs. This is a website for debate, not for Stepford Wives to practice their curtsies."

One word: Trolls.

[Sean Fear]

The protestant work ethic surely promised rewards in heaven not on earth. Its not the 21st century Zeitgeist is it?"

The point about the Protestant Work Ethic was that anybody who worked hard, behaved honestly, and gave generously was glorifying God just as much as the Priest or Monk who spent his time praying (George Herbert expressed this viewpoint very well in one of his poems).

Max Weber took the view that this attitude helped to stimulate capitalism and industrialisation in Protestant countries. Groups such as Quakers and Evangelicals performed their jobs well, gained a reputation for honesty and fair dealing, and avoided drinking and gambling, and thus prospered. The fact that they were legally discriminated against by both Catholics and Anglicans, by being excluded from universities and political life, actually worked in their favour by making them devote themselves to commerce.

[buxtehude]

Richard, of course you're right. Idiotic of me. I'm not sure about DW, but Jack Stone can only be.

[Hmmmm]

www.tonyrobbins.com

check him OUT!!

We can all find our "balance" with millionaire's Dave and Tony!!!!

[TomTom]

Life Work Balance - so I hope Dave will introduce this into all government departments where morale is unusually low. No more weekend working in the NHS so people can be at hom with their families, no more Sunday opening for shops, Mps to have long parliamentary sessions so they don't get bored in those over-long vacations/

Yes society could be transformed - it is clear Dave isn't ba Protestant Ethic Man - better to inherit than create. World of Wooster opens up for the Tories.

[Julian Morrison]

The economic stuff has a lot of impact on work-life balance. All the year until tax freedom day could have been spent skiving work and playing with the kids, without affecting your take home pay, if tax were zero. This year it's June 3. Meaning, you just missed January through May's worth of home life, in order to buy the NHS and the infinite welfare state.

[William]

As well as tax issues, food costs 50% more here than in the USA. Furniture 75%. TV's 66%. Sorry to mention the reason. The EU. That's without taking VAT into account which adds another 10% relative to US sales tax.

VAT fraud and paying too much to foreigners for goods they would happily sell for less costs us up to 20% of our economy according to Patrick Minford. And how about this one? 10% of our exports and imports are considered not even to exist - they are false trades to steal VAT.

We pay top tax, then get ripped off for what we buy. We get robbed by fraudsters, and the government says not a word. If there's anything left as we pass away, that's grabbed at 40%.

Here lies the answer to the quality of life. Get rid of all the nonsense - which buries us in regulations, operates a legal system none of us can understand, favours criminals and allows 600,000 immigrants to enter the country every year.

For improvemet of general well-being, quit the EU. Get our legal system back up and running, our own tax system, our own regulators and our own government. Simple. You can do it, Dave. Better Off Out - and I'm talking health the No 1 ingredient of GWB, mental, physical and moral.

[Christina]

Apparently, the Craiglist website that Dave Cameron praised in his speech, is used by swingers.

[carol42]

Am I alone? I just cannot take to David Cameron and God knows I have tried. I admit I would not have voted for him myself but figured so many Conservatives could not be wrong.I think he is rather odd looking with a strange mixture of being patronising and petulant. I think most of what he says is vapid nonsense and the A list is a joke, at least in part. I could see what he was trying to do in winning over the opinion formers but there has to be more than that. I would hace liked David Davis who remains impressive but was not against skipping a generation, for emample I am very taken with Ed Vaizey who comes accross as entirely relaxed and normal with quite a sense of humour. Anyway I expect we are stuck now and he might even win but I can't say I am very happy.

[Alexander Drake]

Carol42, what WOULD make you happy?

[Ted]

Christina

Craigslist.org certainly isn't which is what DC was talking about, though some clever guy has grabbed the craiglist.com address as a porn one to get people like the lazy reporter who didn't catch the name correctly

[carol42]

Alexander - A leader I could feel more comfortable with, though I do like his wife and since she picked him maybe there is more to him than I have so far seen! I hope so.

[James Maskell]

I didnt quite understand the point about why the Protestant work ethic being wrong...could someone please re-iterate it for someone whose forgotten everything they learnt in A Level Sociology? Why is Cameron saying that we shouldnt follow the Protestant work ethic...

[Peter Harrison]

Ted

Wrong, I'm afraid. Craigslist.org and craigslist.com are actually the same site. It includes a "personals" section which in turn includes a "casual encounters" category. However, this is only a very small part of what craigslist does. To call it a porn site (or a swingers site) would be on a par with calling the Sunday Times a dating magazine on the grounds that it includes personal ads.

[Christina]

Hi Ted,

The article did NOT say it was a porn site (in the Mirror) it stated it was a site used by swingers, and not being lazy, I checked it out and found that it has a very large personal section, with a lot of that kind of thing.

If you go to craiglist.org and click on the 'Best Of' link, you will find most of it is to do with meeting people for sexual activity.

[Christina]

Peter,

If 'The Times' had a 'best of' link and most of the 'best of' section was about meeting people for sex, the description would be accurate, even though there are other things there.

[johnC]

Luther and Calvin, the leaders of the Protestant Reformation, both upheld the value and dignity of work. They said that it was praiseworthy to work hard and diligently and seek maximum profits. They both rejected the medieval hierarchy of vocations which placed religious contemplation and the monastic life as the highest ideal, and said that all work however secular was equally valid.

I suppose that Cameron is saying that this view is now outdated and we should not aim at maximum profit or maximum economic production, or be judged by those criteria, but that we should seek instead a broader target of 'general wellbeing'.

This seems to me to be a rather anti-competitive approach and might be interpreted as condoning laziness and navel-gazing. I would prefer him to say that as a nation we should seek excellence in every area of national life, but that excellence is not just limited to economic performance. This would be for me a rather more positive and aspriational approach.

[Peter]

Cameron is becoming a liability. If I understand him, he is now saying that money is less important than lifestyle. Only a rich man could say this. For hard working families money is fundamental to maintain any sort of lifestyle. This country is drowning in feckless hedonists who blame the government for everything and themselves for nothing.
In my view, all welfare should stop, period. We would then save £125 billion annually to spend on
the armed forces, prisons, nuclear energy, hospitals, schools and tax cuts for the hard working .
The Attlee government destroyed the work ethic in this country. Children should be taught in school that if they don't work, they will starve - and it is up to them and their own families, not the taxpayer, to bale them out.
As John Calvin said in the 16th century ( the basis of the Protestant work ethic which has created the wealth we enjoy today)- " Povery is sin, sinful idleness".

The Conservative Party needs to put the backbone back into the country.

[Jack Stone]

If governments cannot deal with society`s ills I don`t know who will.
The trouble with this country at the moment is it is suffering from a lack of confidence. People believe problems will never be solved and things will never get better. This is wrong.
I believe every problem can be solved, the ills of society solved and this country can be one that is worth living in.
It is up to the party to get out there and convince people that things can get better and that the unthinkable is possibe.We must instil a sense of confidence in people once more.
I am afraid the attitude spoken of earlier of basically as long as i`m alright sod the rest is an attitude that belongs to yesteryear. People want to feel that there in a society that cares and they want to see those at the bottom have there lot improved. The party must embrace this not just because they will lose if they don`t but because its right.

[Jack Stone]

Peter as I am sure never seen or experianced real poverty in his life. There are those who are poor through no fault of there own and if you believe otherwise you are a fool.
John Calvin`s thought are from another age and they deserve to stay there. They have no place in a modern, progressive country.
Personally I didn`t think there was anyone who believed such crap anymore.

[malcolm]

Blimey Jack!

[Ted]

Peter, Christina

spelling makes a difference as does lazy journalism. The story yesterday was Dave had mentioned craiglist/craigslist but forgotten the importance of the suffix. A Mirror journalist obviously picked this up and has got it wrong.

craigslist.org (note the s after craig) is the site (or rather federation of sites) DC talked about. It's a well known site for classified ads (which does include a personals section) which has won quite a few awards for its innovative use of the web.

craiglist.com however (without an s after craig) is a blatant XXX site.

[Mike Christie]

"If governments cannot deal with society`s ills I don`t know who will."

Are you sure you're in the right place? Does Gordon Brown have a blog?

[Helen]

Well, I don't know Jack Stone, the crap you refer to is something a lot of people believe in: work for you living, create your own space, bring up your children, do the best for your family and those around you and do not expect hand-outs from the government. What is actually wrong with that? Why do you, in your superior wisdom, think it is crap? The trouble is that governments and politicians who want to run our lives and dictate our happiness or life-work balance (isn't that phrase a little out of date - soooo last century) make all of that difficult if not impossible by taxation and regulation. It would appear that you are either one of them or would like to be one of them.

If DC really wants to make sure that people climb out of poverty he and his team should start working on tax reforms that will take the low earners out of the tax system and will encourage people to save and to build up pensions.

[Peter Harrison]

Craigslist.co.uk is also a porn site so the suffix is important as well as the spelling.

And Christina, I agree that a proportion of the "best of" is about meeting people for sex, but a lot of it isn't. There are some quite funny rants about incidents in posters' lives. In any case, as the "best of" page points out, the postings are there because readers have nominated them, not because craislist endorses them. Go to a listing and you will find a button allowing you to nominate it for "best of".

So, are they a porn or swingers site simply because they don't censor that stuff? I don't think so. One can argue that they should censor postings but that is a different discussion.

[Richard]

"Peter as I am sure never seen or experianced real poverty in his life. There are those who are poor through no fault of there own and if you believe otherwise you are a fool.
John Calvin`s thought are from another age and they deserve to stay there. They have no place in a modern, progressive country.
Personally I didn`t think there was anyone who believed such crap anymore."

And people still debate with this clown as if he's not a troll?!

[Richard]

"I believe every problem can be solved, the ills of society solved and this country can be one that is worth living in"

I wasn't aware conservatives were utopians.

Get out.

[Ted]

Richard, you may think he's a troll but I think this once I agree with him.

I might not use c*** to describe the following but that's what it is "Children should be taught in school that if they don't work, they will starve - and it is up to them and their own families, not the taxpayer, to bale them out.As John Calvin said in the 16th century ( the basis of the Protestant work ethic which has created the wealth we enjoy today)- " Povery is sin, sinful idleness".

As is that description of the Protestant work ethic - the Quakers and non conformists who had a huge role in the Industrial revolution were not Calvinists.

[Dick Wishart]

Troll calling, with brain engaged. A Troll according to my dictionary is a friendly or mischievous dwarf so its not that bad really.
Serious debate Richard! with words such as throwing up, crap, preachy, return of the underpants, stepford wifes ( dont get that one).
The problem with some of the bloggers on this site is that they wont debate at all, if DC says something that is not quite what they want it just gets slagged off as nonsense. Thats not debate thats taking a reactionary point of view and refusing to move from it no matter what, true debate is both criticism and praise,not just sitting there unable or unwilling to realise that there might just be a different way of doing things.
I am not a Cameroon, in fact i campaigned and voted for Davis, however i am prepared to listen and debate any issue DC comes up with, and where necessary show my disapproval. I will not however just sit around and shoot down everything he says, i have an open mind and am prepared and do, use it constructively.
In my opinion his speech about GWB needed to be said, its better to 'work to live'rather 'than live to work'.As one of the more staid generation it worry's me to see so many younger people today suffering from depression,anxiety,and nervous exhaustion, something that was unheard of in my younger days. So it seems to me that the live to work syndrome is fast becoming reality, in this respect i can see where DC is coming from and totally agree with him.

Stepford wife signing off(Still dont get it)

[Richard]

Ted,

It was his use of the oft-repeated mantra "modern, progressive country" that made me think "clown". It's like he's playing the stereotype of uber-moderniser. He once called me "nasty" because I mocked the idea of positive discrimination by asking him if he thought it unfair that hermaphrodites weren't sufficiently represented in Parliament. Then there was telling right-wingers to "sod off", calling David Cameron "the best leader since Margaret Thatcher" (might be true but the context in which he said it was clearly OTT). Not to mention:

http://www.ukipforum.co.uk/post-103814.html&highlight=#103814

Incidently, while the exact wording of Calvin's thoughts might be inappropriate, the general way in which the Protestant work ethic has been interpreted over the years is certainly not out of date i.e. work brings prosperity. Just think of all the labour saving devices that were developed, ironically, due to hard work.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>As one of the more staid generation it worry's me to see so many younger people today suffering from depression,anxiety,and nervous exhaustion, something that was unheard of in my younger days.<<<<
They have always been in existence, naturally they are increased because life is more complicated than it used to be and people who are either as a result of background or inheritance are more prone to such conditions are treated with Anti-Depressants and Tranquilisers and so are less likely to kill themselves.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>are treated with Anti-Depressants and Tranquilisers and so are less likely to kill themselves.<<<<
In fact as many are genetically related people with such conditions living and breeding are more likely to produce offspring with genetic predispositions to such conditions, it's the same with people with problems having children - help such people having children and the result is a higher proportion of people who have difficulty having children and underweight babies are likely to have more health problems as adults and are more likely to have genetic problems to pass on to the next generation - maybe the Norsemen leaving babies outside overnight on the day of their birth to see if they survived or not had some good things to recommend it.

[William]

The values of business need to be redefined to suit changing circumstances. Human activity of all kinds needs a purpose to be effective.

In the 16th C, alleviating poverty was a sufficient purpose for work. In the 1970's and 1980's business was valued for the jobs they created, and increasing monetary wealth.

Business activity now needs to target satisfaction of work, better coordination with home life and reduction of stress. This needs a cultural changeover from a totally competitive idea of business, where one person's advance is seen as another's retrogression, to a more cooperative emphasis, where people feel as if they all in the game as one.

Selecting the type of people in an organisation is one way to achieve this. Some are more naturally content by nature. Others are more naturally jealous and discontented. We need to promote contentment and demote jealousy, if we want to reduce stress in our lives.

Thatcher did not run businesses, but she inspired poeple to buid a new economy after the collapse of traditional manufacturing by changing the cultural climate making business more confident.

Cameron could likewise inspire a new softer gentler social climate in which gentler less competitive people can thrive and do better than before in the dog eat dog era. New Labour and the Blairs have proved to be the ultimate dog-eat-dogs. It's time for a change.

Women particularly are sensing the need for a change, which is where Cameron's growth in support is coming from.

[Yet Another Anon]

>>>>Business activity now needs to target satisfaction of work, better coordination with home life and reduction of stress. This needs a cultural changeover from a totally competitive idea of business, where one person's advance is seen as another's retrogression, to a more cooperative emphasis, where people feel as if they all in the game as one.<<<<
The responsibility of private business is to increase returns for their shareholders, social engineering is not their responsibility - Home Life is the responisibility of the worker and only of interest to the employer if it adversely affects the way they do their job, I don't think it should have anything to do with politics at all.

Government's responsibility is in taking strategic decisions regarding the economy and the environment and relating to strategically important services to the public and in maintaining social order, stopping criminal activity, and defending the country from internal and external enemies which really comes under strategic influences

[Jack Stone]

I totally object to this nonsense that poor people are poor because of there own actions and the idea that they should just be left to rot in there own sorry lifes.
Most people are poor through no fault of there own. What we need to do is to give those who can help themselves the opportunity to get out of there poverty and a safety net for those who through no fault of there own can not fall.
To descibe those struggling to feed themselves and there families like something you have just scrapped off the bottom of your shoe is totally offensive.
Calvins thoughts were first said in the sixteenth century and they were not only suited to that wicked time they deserve to stay there.

[William]

YAA - I agree with your 'and' but there is no need to exclude value of the human kind from business.

On the contrary content business cultures grow faster and last longer than discontented ones. It's not social engineering. It's business looked at from a lateral viewpoint.

Cameron's onto something.