Ken Clarke urges retention of EPP membership

David Cameron's commitment to take Tory MEPs out of the European Peoples' Party was one of the few bankable commitments of his leadership bid.  Earlier this week the new Shadow Foreign Secretary, William Hague, said that the commitment would be honoured but Ken Clarke has used an interview with BBC1's Politics Show to protest against the move.  Mr Clarke is close to many of the Tory Party's MEPs - two-thirds of whom are said to oppose Mr Cameron's policy.

The former Chancellor of the Exchequer attempted to reposition himself as less of a Europhile during his ill-fated leadership bid but he told BBC1 that he thought Mr Cameron's EPP policy was not wise.  It is a "head-banging" policy, he said, and warned Mr Cameron that he was in danger of looking more extreme on Europe than any of his predecessors.  Mr Clarke is worried that, outside of the EPP, Tories could have no choice but to ally themselves with the European Parliament's ultra-right.

Mr Cameron must have hoped that getting Mr Clarke to join his big tent by getting him to chair the Democracy Taskforce would meet Lyndon Johnson's "better to have him inside the tent pissing out, then outside pissing in" maxim.  Mr Clarke has found a way to be inside the tent and still urinate at his leader's policy.

Mr Letwin, also on the Politics Show, attempted to play down the importance of the policy.  Mr Letwin said that voters were much more interested in issues like climate change and social justice - two of the six challenges that his policy groups will investigate over the next eighteen months.  Mr Letwin did insist, however, that Mr Cameron would deliver on his EPP commitment.

Comments

[EU Serf]

....Ken Clarke is a popular figure and an important part of the Conservative Party.....

Splitter that he is, If Clarke is still popular then I'm afraid it says very little that is good about our party.

[wasp]

I happen to agree with Ken here but Cameron has made the decision and that should be the end of it.

[Chris]

Tell that to Clarke then, wasp...can he not keep his fat mouth shut for five seconds?
Such selfishness, vanity and arrogance - exactly why he was NOT the right leader!

[John Hustings]

Personally, I'm just pleased that Ken Clarke's political career is effectively over (despite Cameron making him head of a Democracy Taskforce) and that his failure to win the leadership pretty much symbolises the end of the Wet/Europhile dominance of the Tory Party that did so much damage in the Major years.

If there are to be any future splits in the party, it will be based on how far the "modernisers" are willing to go to purge the party of its core beliefs. If Cameron is sensible, and realises that he doesn't have to move to the left in terms of policy, -- and all he has to do is sound bright and chirpy (as he has done) -- then things might be okay. But I remain very nervous, and the A-List idea in particular leaves me feeling uneasy. I just hope it isn't the first step of many changes, and that it is just a one-off.

Cameron should not underestimate the extent to which core conservatives will fight their ground. And creating a needless internal war really would be foolish.

I am going to wait and see what he does with regard to crime, immigration and terrorism. If he decides to go "soft" on those subjects, then he really isn't very clever. And I doubt I would be able to remain loyal to the Tory Party.

Like many, though, I am trying to be as sanguine as possible: I hope that the vacuous drivel we have heard from Cameron recently is just a shrewd attempt to get the media on side. (I really hope he doesn't actually *believe* in Kyoto-style targets, for example).

The end of the Clarke generation presents a unique opportunity to unite the party. I hope he realises that. But the jury is very much out.

[Coxy]

Ken should have got the message when he crashed out in the first round.

The party is now clearly comfortable to be euro-sceptic, and has been since early in Hague's leadership. Most of the europhiles have got the idea and moved on to higher pastures (or the house of lords). Ken should do the same.

[Geoff]

It is an unfortunate precedent that ex-senior Cabinet Ministers usually get a peerage if they wish. I hope he doesn't get that soapbox-for-life in the HoL. If it's a choice between KC flying round the world flogging over-strength cigarettes to African kids or him having a permanently reserved seat on the Today programme to insult our policy-du-jour then I am ethically torn. But not that much.

[Peter]

You people are a joke when you attack Ken's stance. Remember that out of Cameron 116MPs at least 66 of them wanted to end the membership rights or like Cameron abstained. As been said here if you want to change which group we are in change the MEPs next time. Also through change how many choices we have to choose from as last time having only 5 in the south west was a joke and again showed how much the party nationally took members locally. I don't see Cameron saying he will change this, with that does he really care about the members rights or not?

[Peter]

I see also from the Shadow cabinet a couple of David Davis supporters have been dropped with that the new team has to be given a D grade for rubbing peoples nose in. At least he passes one test out of three so far?

[James Maskell]

I have a suggestion for the Editor. Could you write a 10-Point-Briefing on the issues around the EPP membership? Im not exactly following the discussion very well and I suspect some other readers here might not be able to either. Im not very knowledgable about this issue...

[Chris]

The underlying issue isn't really what is getting up my nose. Clarke may have a good point.
It's the fact that Clarke can't wait two minutes before beating a path to the nearest BBC microphone.
Why can't he (for once) make his case privately?
Instead we have yesterday's good opinion poll news spoiled.
Vanity and arrogance.

[Mark Fulford]

Ken Clarke, the ever-loose cannon! I hope Cameron sets Basher upon him.

[CLARKE MUST GO]

Editor - can you confirm that my address is appearing at your end as that of Roger Helmer? Are there some 'Black Artists' at work here - as well as DVA devilment? I think you know who I am - can you email me? This is not the first time that tampering with blogs is suspected.

[Frank Young]

The Conservative MEPs are part of the "Europe of Democracies" group which is itself loosely aligned to the EPP. The actual title of the co-allition is the EPP-ED. we form part of the ED bit which is very much in line with the centre right eurosceptic free market thinking in our domestic Conservative party. The ED alligns itself to the EPP for practical reasons - it allows ED members access to debate and position in the parliament which they would have no chance of getting on their own. The EDD is happy to have them in this loosest of loose alignments because it tips the blance of power towards them rather than the Euro Socialist parties, thus making them the biggset group in the parliament.

Both the EPP and the ED gain from this agreement while having very different views on Europe etc.

[Richard Weatherill]

Frank - can you point to the place(s) on the EPP-ED web site where the nature of this loose association and the non-federalist views of the ED are acknowledged?

[Frank Young]

Never let it be said that I don't rise to a challange!

""The Members (of the EPP-ED alignment) have the right to promote and develop their distinct views on constitutional and institutional issues in relation to the future of Europe."

"The ED is expressly committed to democracy, individual liberty, the rule of law, national sovereignty, free enterprise, minimal regulation, low taxation, private ownership, respect and security for every individual and a strong transatlantic alliance."

"Members of Parliament who wish to join the EPP-ED Group can apply to join either the EPP or the ED section of it."

[Richard Weatherill]

Frankly (no pun intended), I'm impressed! I suspect than many of us who advocate withdrawal from the EPP-ED grouping might be more content if the distinct views of the ED component (and the UK Conservative MEPs' membership of it) were given greater public prominence.

[James Hellyer]

But the ED has no staff or existance of its own. It's a paper grouping, whose aims and those of the EPP are mutually exclusive.

[Richard Weatherill]

Good point James - I must be going soft in my old age! It would certainly be better if the ED group did actually exist.

[Peter]

Do people agree through the main problem why we got to this point was the way members were restricted in how many choices we had to chose them last time and thats what needs to be changed first not what group we are linked to otherwise we may have another Stevens/Donnelly split?

[malcolm]

I would agree with that Peter.AAt the last Euro election I voted Conservative (after having toyed with the idea of UKIP) without the slightest idea of the individual views of those high on the Conservative list.
Wrong of me I know, but the same I suspect for thousands and thousands of voters.

[Peter]

The problem is Malcolm MEPs can lie at selection meetings you should have heard Jackson in 98 saying that she couldn't see us being in a single currency for 20 years and with that was put at the top of the list. Hopefully a few more people(and maybe even some from this blog) may attend next time as it was still poorly attended in 2002.

[James Hellyer]

"It would certainly be better if the ED group did actually exist."

The problem is that the ED is just a fiction to allow the Conservative party to justify associating with a group like the EPP, whose beliefs are so at odds with our own.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"I have not once claimed to be Roger Helmer. It was DVA who suggested that I was and keeps repeating that I am (he is clearly a Ken Clarke supporter). I have written at least two denials here. Is this an interesting example of how rumour mills work? Repeat something enough times, and people start to believe it."

"Are there some 'Black Artists' at work here - as well as DVA devilment?"

Don't drag me into this - the URL attached to some of your posts is for Roger Helmer's website, which is your doing NOT mine. As for being a Ken Clarke supporter, I backed Ken Clarke in the leadership election in spite of my European views not because of them.

[CLARKE MUST GO]

Sorry DVA, but you and others have referred to me as 'Roger' - I'm sure it was meant as a joke but the Editor seems to believe this is not so.

As for the URL, Roger's brief www.rogerhelmer.com/contrepp.asp is by far the best short article explaining the EPP issue to be found. The one posted today is quite long and academicky. Roger's is down to earth, understandable and brief. Why doesn't the editor ask Roger Helmer MEP for his views officially? It would clarify matters I feel.

I find that people who support Ken Clarke but think they are eurosceptic are naive in extremis. He's a eurofanatic who cannot even begin see the error of his ways. He prepared the EEC Enabling Legislation in 1972 and has been a faithful supporter of corruption and the destruction of Westminster as sovereign ever since. Strange that Cameron has seen fit to put him charge of reviewing the institution he seems hellbent on destroying. But such is the illogicality of British politics where the media dictate leaders' actions more than common sense.

I am convinced that the only solution is for Ruschcliffe to deselect Ken Clarke as he observes no limts to his outbursts and shows no loyalty to the party, and its choice of leader.

DVA has an eye for the ladies. maybe we should refer to him as DVLA! we all suffer from sense of humour it seems as well as firm political beliefs.

[malcolm]

I think,whatever your name is,that you seriously weaken your case with posts like this.I disagree totally with Ken Clarkes' views on Europe but am glad he is in our party as he is one of the most effective debators on the economy and other subjects.
You might also think about being brave and post using your real name.

[James Hellyer]

"I am convinced that the only solution is for Ruschcliffe to deselect Ken Clarke"

I don't think acrimony and public rancour are the best ways to deal with someone who will almost certainly be standind down at the next election anyway.

[Sean Fear]

I don't think deselcting such a well-known politician would be a sensible step.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"I find that people who support Ken Clarke but think they are eurosceptic are naive in extremis."

I find that people who let the European issue dominate their political outlook are blinkered in extremis.

"I am convinced that the only solution is for Ruschcliffe to deselect Ken Clarke as he observes no limts to his outbursts and shows no loyalty to the party, and its choice of leader."

Are there any limits to your outbursts? And what about loyalty to the MEPs' choice of leader Timothy Kirkhope, whom you are constantly slating? As for loyalty to the party - which MEP had the Conservative whip removed for breaching the party line?

"DVA has an eye for the ladies."

What an utterly bizarre assertion. You've clearly misinterpreted my point that, judging by his website, your beloved hero Roger Helmer is clearly a believer in promoting young female talent and that I'd be fascinated to know the recruitment and selection process for his political assistants.

[CLARKE MUST GO]

I can be as brave as you like Malcolm. I have run deselection campaigns before now to remove disloyal Conservative MP's, and in my opinion it does MP's the world of good to realise that they are failing to represent the views of their electors. I still believe in democracy, and will not bow down to media control. KC is using his position in the media to attack our new leader David Cameron. What exactly is it that pleases you about that?

We have a good chance of success now. Clarke with media backing can do a lot to damage the Party, and he is showing himself determined to wreak havoc. Cameron needs support as Daniel Hannan is writing today in his newsletter.

The only way to deliver that support as effectively as it possible to do, is to initiate a deselection campaign in Kenneth's Constitiuency Rushcliffe just outside Nottingham. We need a new Robin Hood to burst the arrogamce of an overmighty prince who protects the corrupt and deprives ordinary people of their democratic rights.

Malcolm, I will reveal my name if you will reveal yours! Meanwhile my views need the HEADLINE to get across.

DVLA - you have mentioned your interest in Roger Helmer's recruiting policy as regards his female members of staff. It amused me. I can converse on many political issues or others as you wish. The one in this thread is the EPP. I hope you don't want me to stray off topic. Clarke is dangerous to Cameron. Wake up guys (and girls) we have to do something if we want to win, not sit and wait while Cameron is roasted by the media for doing what's right. Rushcliife after Christmas for a deselection looks a racing certainty.

[James Hellyer]

Yes, I'm sure they'll deselect a popular sitting MP.

Meanwhile in the real world...

[CLARKE MUST GO]

Errr - the result of a deselection campaign is not a foregone conclusion I would agree. It is entirely in the hands of Rushcliffe Conservatives. If they are happy for Kenneth to be openly disloyal to David Cameron in the full glare of the media, while backing an issue that few Conservative Members agree with, then they can do nothing and the situation will continue.

But if on reflection they want to offer Cameron support, and bring Kenneth to heel, then they can call for a vote of no confidence and give their MP a warning.

If the MP shows no interests in the views of his constituents, then he knows he is treading on dangerous ground as he has been warned.

It all depends on how strongly they feel. The job of the deselction campaigners is to make sure the Rushcliffe members know they have it in their power to back David Cameron against their own MP's open and continuing disloyalty - popular, likeable, talented or not.

[James Hellyer]

"But if on reflection they want to offer Cameron support, and bring Kenneth to heel, then they can call for a vote of no confidence and give their MP a warning."

And generate more negative publicity and headlines about divisions over the EU.

[Simon C]

"Rushcliife after Christmas for a deselection looks a racing certainty."

What odds are you offering & at what price - and what's your cut off for "after Christmas"?

[Frank Young]

Ken Clarke will almosty certainly not step down at the next election, he is very happy in the commons and wants to stay in there for quite some time. I suspect he has his eye on becoming Father of the House.

[simon clewer]

There's a very big issue here.

Europe is not going to go away.

Many of the educated and intelligent people who might be Conservative voters believe in the European project.

Many believe that the Euro is self evidently a good idea and that tax harmonisation is a state of grace. Most economists believe this and the thinking classes are mostly pro European.

Anybody fancy a proper intelligent discussion?

Subject being "Twenty first century Thatcherism loves the Project, loves the Euro, desires tax harmonisation"

Ken Clarke is saying what many educated people take to be self evident truths. He is surely reluctant to be disloyal, it only points out how big this issue is.

[James Hellyer]

"Ken Clarke is saying what many educated people take to be self evident truths"

No he isn't, and he's certainly not saying what you claim are "self evident truths". Probably because they are no such thing, and even an arch-europhile like Clarke can see that.

[CLARKE MUST GO]

I think there are two dimensions.

Does the leadership of the Conservative Party mean anything, or were the last three months just another piece of Reality TV of no consequence? What was the point in having a good long drawn out leadership contest, if as soon as it's over, Ken Clarke acts as if the whole thing was irrelevant. And despite having been the main loser, he now wishes to override the Party leader's chosen and advertised policies.

The other aspect is whether we are living in a democracy or not. If this is a democracy, then voters cannot become totally powerless while the big beasts play out their media games. Kenneth is certainly Goliath. But is there still a David who can fell him? Or are the Big Beasts who live not in Parliament, not in their constituencies but in the media now uncontrollable and able to do and say whatever they chose?

To me this is just bullying. It's like saying to all the 100's of thousands who have just cast their votes'I can push you around and ignore you so I will.' The only way to handle a bully is to show him that he too is vulnerable.

And that means his own Constituency has to hold meetings and decide what they feel in their own hearts. Do they agree with their MP quietly destroying his Party, ignoring their views and those of most Conservatives, overriding David Cameron their newly chosen leader and oublicly humiliating him? Or not?

The battle will not be fought in Parliament or even in the media. This battle can only be fought at street and constituency level and that is why a deselection campaign against Kenneth is inevitable.

After Christmas will be the best time I feel, when people have had time to reflect on how serious an issue this is.

[simon clewer]

James Hellyer
***Ken Clarke is saying what many educated people take to be self evident truths"

No he isn't, and he's certainly not saying what you claim are "self evident truths". Probably because they are no such thing, and even an arch-europhile like Clarke can see that.****

I was careful to only assert that many people (not necessarily myself) see the European project as a good thing. You may be right that there are no self-evident truths, but we all hold many things to be such. Do I recall a celebrated tract "These truths we hold to be self evident ......" - it then goes on about some things we all hold dear, life,liberty,pursuit of something or other.

I'm trying to make the point that this is a big issue, very big, and it won't go away, and that many educated and intelligent people are in no way Europhobic.

I assume (may be wrong) that likely Conservative voters are generally better educated and more intelligent than Labour voters. And the europhiles are also,in general, the more educated and intelligent sections of society.

This party is going to fight over Europe - it won't go away - no amount of blood letting will rid the Conservative constituency of Europhilia. The party itself is firmly in the hands of Europhobes - but the Tory constituency is not so pure.

Ken speaks for many whose vote we will solicit at the next election.

[CLARKE MUST GO]

'Ken speaks for many whose vote we will solicit at the next election' Simon says.

Whatever size the Europhile rump has left, it is greatly outnumbered within the Party at all levels by Eurosceptics.

There are also sizeable chunks that have migrated to other parties who would return if the Conservatives set out a properly modern European policy.

There are large numbers of Labour voters who want to stop the 'ever closer union' EU strategy of Tony Blair. In fact the few we will lose by changing and becoming modern anti-federalists, will be greatly outnumbered by the many coming back to the Party and those joining for the first time.

The dynamics have changed. Building a new concept for Europe is a big vote winner now. Clarke's past his sell-by date. His policies on the EU are palaeolithic.

[James Hellyer]

"I assume (may be wrong) that likely Conservative voters are generally better educated and more intelligent than Labour voters."

Actually due to the age profile of the party, a lower proprtion of Conservative members have degrees than would be the case in the other parties.

[Daniel Vince-Archer]

"DVLA - you have mentioned your interest in Roger Helmer's recruiting policy as regards his female members of staff. It amused me. I can converse on many political issues or others as you wish. The one in this thread is the EPP. I hope you don't want me to stray off topic."

Actually, you were the person who first mentioned my supposed 'eye for the ladies' on this thread, despite it being unrelated to the topic under discussion and despite the fact that we're clearly not acquainted - hence why I called it an utterly bizarre assertion. I suggest that in future, if you don't wish to discuss something, or 'stray off topic', then don't bring it up.

[simon clewer]

****** SIMON -"I assume (may be wrong) that likelyConservative voters are generally better educated and more intelligent than Labour voters."

JAMES -Actually due to the age profile of the party, a lower proprtion of Conservative members have degrees than would be the case in the other parties. ******

This would suggest that Labour voters are more educated than Conservative voters ?!*&?!!

It seems that there is some agreement on this blog that more intelligent and educated people tend to be less Europhobic - perhaps this suggests how we can regain lost voters from the thinking classes ( especially economists ). Personally, I fear terribly for us when economists no longer see us as their natural home.

***"There are large numbers of Labour voters who want to stop the 'ever closer union' EU strategy of Tony Blair. In fact the few we will lose by changing and becoming modern anti-federalists, will be greatly outnumbered by the many coming back to the Party and those joining for the first time."****
There are votes to be gained and lost either way round.Last time the people were asked (1975) they voted 2 to 1 to remain in the EEC.

A couple of points should be made.

1: Eurosceptic popularity is probably over estimated, just as it was in 1975.

2: We risk alienating so much of our natural constituency of educated and intelligent voters with Europhobia.

I'm only trying to make the point here that Euroscepticism surely costs us dear, no matter what advantages it may also bring. We risk being pushed off the intellectual high ground by the bloody leftists - Now how can that be right ? They can't think, they're too bigoted and ideological and in love with themselves and in hatred of us to be able to think - they can only have the high ground if we abandon it.

We're losing out to leftists who get their jollies by making untruths into law then flaunting it.

If we drive away the thinking classes and especially the economists, then we leave the high ground to thought-police, interdictors and confiscators - and they've no place there.

I'm trying to make the point that quitting the EPP and other stuff is arguably (lets discuss it) cutting off our nose to spite our face, throwing our toys out of the pram. We risk surrendering the high ground in pursuit of an antiEU constituency that may no more exist than it did in 1975.

Engagement is enabling, disengagement is arguably (lets discuss) a cul-de-sac.

The Project is not going to go away, and this party is going to fight ... none us can stop either of those truths (lets discuss).

[John Hustings]

I don't care if being Eurosceptic loses the Tory Party some votes (I don't even think this is true). I care that being Eurosceptic is the *right* thing. And I believe it is.

Why do so many people seem willing to ditch any Conservative principle (even our national sovereignty for heaven's sake) for the sake of a few votes? Is this not the worst sort of opportunism?

[CLARKE MUST GO (QUIETLY PLEASE RUSHCLIFFE)]

It seems that the narrative has changed, John. Read Daniel Hannan's website and see his latest newsletter.

The talk is not of uroscepticism and urophilia - but of creating a more modern outlook for Europe - of modernising Europe. We don't emphasise the negative view of uro-corruption, bureaucracy, the wrecked economies and wasted lives. We emphasise new growth - the chance to create the free trading Europe that people voted for in 1975 - not the ever closer union, federalist state that was the only way imaginable to prevent future war in 1945.

Another 30 years has elapsed since 1975. There is a new generation with new possibilities which didn't exist 30 years and 60 years ago. David Cameron wants to seize the future not be locked into the past. That is the feeling of the young generation and it is more powerful than any other notion expressed here and elsewhere about our uropast.

Ken Clarke is a great act, but so are Oasis. It doesn't mean that new songs can never be sung. Imagine what it would be like if Gallagher campaigned in rage when Robbie Williams got to No 1.

Not difficult to make such behaviour look a bit out of date and stuck with its notions from the past - the pique of jealousy. ...hopefully Clarke will be retired before he gets even more embarrassing. His Constituency Rushcliffe should really be trying to help Clarke to find a new home, and allow the Cameron era to move Britain into the modern era. His time has come.

[Sean Fear]

Most people are eurosceptic to a greater or lesser degree Simon, even among the upper middle classes.

Economists have never seen us as their natural home - remember the 364 who signed the letter attacking Mrs. Thatcher's economic policies?

[Peter]

I think most people on this question miss the point which is do we want a democratic free party or a clone of the Labour party. I want to get out of the EU but we have to remember that the majority of MEPs want further intergration, with that both sides should be allowed to say something in my view not just the leader. My question is how many of you have been to a EU selection meeting in the past. I think the answer to that will prove a point on all this?

[simon clewer]

****I don't care if being Eurosceptic loses the Tory Party some votes (I don't even think this is true). I care that being Eurosceptic is the *right* thing. And I believe it is.
Why do so many people seem willing to ditch any Conservative principle (even our national sovereignty for heaven's sake) for the sake of a few votes? Is this not the worst sort of opportunism? *******

John - that depends on whether you're a Eurosceptic / pragmatist / Europhile. If Euroscepticism is absolute then indeed it would be mere opportunism, but if your views are more nuanced, equivocal, amenable or pragmatic then circles can be squared. I reiterate the point that hardcore Europscepticism costs us dear.

There are those who would argue that Conservatism is first and foremost about political power, all else is secondary.

****Most people are eurosceptic to a greater or lesser degree Simon, even among the upper middle classes.****

Sean - Yes indeed, though that also implies that most people are europhilic to lesser or greater degree. There's political mileage in that thar' Project.

****Economists have never seen us as their natural home - remember the 364 who signed the letter attacking Mrs. Thatcher's economic policies?******
Sean - Bedwetters, what about all the other economists? OK we can differ about where economists find their natural home ;-) Perhaps I was at an impressionable age (mid teens) when Mrs Thatcher and Keith Joseph stormed the high ground with common reason and economics.

*****The talk is not of uroscepticism and urophilia - but of creating a more modern outlook for Europe - of modernising Europe****
Henry (assume that's your name), dig the new spelling ... YES YES YES.

Lets fix it not break it.

If we can agree on that, there's loads to get our teeth into. The bloody Projects riddled with bloody leftists and their bloody leftisms, there is (to quote Mrs T.) "much work to be done".

So back to the original point I've been making all along ... we need to engage, not disengage. DC may be right to leave the EPP but only if we can offer something enabling instead, pure hostility will do us no good in the end.

[Yorkshire Tory]

Clarke, working for New Labour? A secret socialist? You've got to be out of your tiny minds!

Yes, he is a Europhile- but then again, so are model Thatcherites Quentin Davies, Bob Walter and Edwina Currie.

Clarke is an old fashioned, One Nation Tory- he is one of the reasons why I joined the party. The "Notting Hill" set make me want to vomit- they are so pretentious. Indeed, I thought that New Labour's shower of oily little schoolboys was bad enough- but the "Notting Hill" set are a load of two-bit, pimply, jumped-up, public schoolboys who have nothing better to do than whinge about WHSmiths selling chocolate oranges, and talk about their new conservatories.

I know that I'm going to be ribbed for my rant, but as a plain-speaking Northerner (albeit with a 'posh' voice) I'd sooner have ten Kenneth Clarkes in the PCP than the load of poncey nerds who've hijacked the party.