Edward Leigh says it is "delusional" to believe that western liberal values can be imposed in Iraq or Afghanistan

Edward Leigh MP: "The Government have alienated the Muslim minority in this country and throughout the world through their policies on Iraq, in particular, and Afghanistan, to a lesser extent. It is well known that I voted against the Iraq war, and I shall not go over that again. However, in the Liaison Committee over the past year, I have repeatedly asked detailed questions of the former Prime Minister, and I have also asked the Secretary of State for Defence what on earth is going on in Iraq. Answers have not been forthcoming.  We have had an answer from a senior serving officer, responsible for thousands of troops, who told a Sunday newspaper that the decision to pull soldiers out of the centre of Basra last month came after commanders concluded that using Iraqi forces would be more effective. He said:

“We would go down there dressed as Robocop, shooting at people if they shot at us, and innocent people were getting hurt. We don’t speak Arabic to explain and our translators were too scared to work for us any more. What benefit were we bringing to these people?”

The article also states:

“British forces have struck a deal with Shia militias to withdraw to a single base at the international airport in return for assurances that they will no longer be attacked.”

The fact is that the invasion of Iraq was a fundamental diplomatic and military disaster. It has given enormous impetus to Muslim extremism and we are still making mistakes there. We are still alienating Muslim opinion. We have got out of Basra and it appears that the only victors there are the Muslim militias. I voted against the war and I think that we should get out as soon as possible.

There are also real dangers facing us in Afghanistan. I know that terrorism is a real problem there, and we should by all means go in there to deal with it. But if we think that we can impose our western liberal values on Iraq or Afghanistan, we are deluding ourselves."

Comments

[Malcolm Dunn]

I can't disagree with a word Edward Leigh has written.
It is a shame that there are as far as I'm aware no British journalists still reporting from Basra but it seems likely that we have merely replaced one tyranny (Hussein) with another (the Mahdi Army).

[CAWP]

All this is ignoring the wonderful news out of Iraq in recent weeks and days, which suggests, on the contrary, that Iraq is won. I'm surprised there hasn't been more linking to the excellent Michael Yon (http://michaelyon-online.com/).

People said the same things that Leigh says now about Iraq and Afstan about Korea, Japan and Germany fifty years ago; all of which are now first world, thriving, prosperous democracies. Look at India, too: of course liberal, democratic values are enforceable in ANY country, it just depends on whether we have the determination and stamina to see it through.

Leigh - possibly one of the most unhelpful, useless, ignorant politicians in the House today - evidently doesn't.

[Cllr Francis Lankester]

We had the chance to kill Moktadar Al Sadr and disburse the Mehdi Army during at least two of its revolts. But the politicians preferred to "negotiate."

Until we stand up for liberal values (ie Muslim/Christian/Hindu/Sikh solidarity = sectarianism) in this country, never mind abroad, we only feed a retreat to sectarian values rather than everyone in one national community. The Conservative Muslim Forum is a sad example of this right at home.

[Yet Another Anon]

What can be put in place in Iraq though is a strongly principled set of laws based in Islamic values and traditional Arab and Kurdish culture with a progressive streak to it.

Ba'athism was supposed to be innovative, based on liberal values, instead of which it came to favour a party elite as Soviet Communism did and it fostered idolatry, playboy lifestyles for party leadership especially the family of Saddam Hussein and it squandered Iraq's natural resources destroying the environment of and impoverishing a country that should be and had been wealthy and with overwhelming natural beauty.

In the case of Afghanistan the best hope is to attempt to purge Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda is an imperialist force coming in from outside both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Rank and file members of the taliban were not part of Al Qaeda, to a great extent though western liberals such as Hilary Clinton with their bra burning and constant criticism of the former regime were responsible for driving the taliban leadership (who in 1998 were about to throw Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda out of the country and had already restricted the movements of Al Qaeda inside Afghanistan into actually siding with Al Qaeda. The legacy of the taliban is likely to continue in Afghanistan, elements linked to Al Qaeda or otherwise involved in international terrorism have to be countered.

The instability in Afghanistan though was what allowed Al Qaeda to get established, the Mujahadeen had a formidable enemy in the USSR and so CIA and Saudi money, resources and intelligence were important in the long war then; later the taliban were in a civil war with the Mujahadeen. Those opposing them had backing from Iran and in some cases Central Asian states - in Iraq and Afghanistan reconciling different ethnic groups as well as reconciling Shia and Sunnis is important to achieving stability.

[michael mcgough]

"But if we think that we can impose our western liberal values on Iraq or Afghanistan, we are deluding ourselves"

This is surely equally applicable to the muslim ghettoes here.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

Edward Leigh MP: "The Government have alienated the Muslim minority in this country and throughout the world through their policies on Iraq, in particular, and Afghanistan, to a lesser extent. It is well known that I voted against the Iraq war, and I shall not go over that again."

Unfortunately, Edward, you ignored your own advice "not to go over that again".

Which part of the Muslim minority have we offended? Is it those that believe that 9/11 was perpetrated by a Jewish conspiracy; is those that support jihad emanating from some fanatic Islamists in Saudia Arabia; is it those that read in 25% of mosques in Britain literature that it is their duty to spread Islam by violence if necessary and have no truck with the "infidels" and not to assimilate; is it those that wish to see sharia law in Britain; is it those that believe if Israel disappeared off the map that all would be well in the world; or perhaps it is that minority that have threatened the life of a Newham councillor, his wife and children because he opposes the building of a mega mosque in Stratford?

"There are also real dangers facing us in Afghanistan. I know that terrorism is a real problem there, and we should by all means go in there to deal with it. But if we think that we can impose our western liberal values on Iraq or Afghanistan, we are deluding ourselves".

"There are also real dangers facing us in Afghanistan". What are those then, Edward and what are the causes? How are they different to the dangers in Iraq and of those posed by Iran?

If we are unable to impose "liberal values on Iraq or Afghanistan" then eventually they will impose their intolerant Islamist il-liberal values on us - that is why we are there.

I am pleased to read and hear that there has been some improvement regarding the lowering of the level of violence in Iraq (continue to question the Sec for Defence, Edward there is now some good news. The question is who wants to, including the media, to hear it?)

Only those that believe we can walk away from Iraq and the Middle East and then all will be well in the world, are not only delusional, but ignorant of what we are up against. Many of those in Parliament are ignorant - it shows in what they have allowed to happen to Britain in the last two decades.

[Comstock]

"I can't disagree with a word Edward Leigh has written."

To be honest, Malcolm, neither can I. And I'm trying hard to, because I loathe the man.

It's a funny old world sometimes :D