Saj Karim MEP adopted by Conservative selectorate for 2009 European Elections

Yesterday Den Dover, Robert Atkins and Sajjad Karim all received more than 50% of the votes from a meeting of select members of North West Tories.  ConservativeHome learnt that "there was some hostility" to Mr Karim at the meeting but he received the necessary votes to enjoy one of the top three places on the regional list.  Because of changes made by the Party Board last year ordinary members can no longer place new and potentially more Eurosceptic candidates above sitting MEPs if those sitting MEPs have already been 'toplisted' by the kind of Regional Selection Committee that convened yesterday.

Mr Karim's 'toplisting' will be controversial.  He only defected from the LibDems at the end of November after scoring badly in the LibDems' only selection vote.  66% of Tory members told ConservativeHome that they opposed special treatment for defectors.  If the selection had been left to rank-and-file members they may well have preferred a longstanding Conservative activist to represent them.  They may have also been unhappy to see Sir Robert Atkins, an opponent of David Cameron's EPP policy, from being ranked in the top three.  We will now never know.

Since Mr Karim defected to the Conservatives he has been active in supporting North West Tory candidates and was instrumental in securing last week's defection of a LibDem Manchester councillor.

Comments

[Donal Blaney]

And it's because of nonsense like this in the North West that so many Tories vote for UKIP in the European Parliamentary Elections every five years. So much for democracy in the Party...

[Justin Hinchcliffe]

This is very good news. Well done to Den, Robert and Sajjad.

[MHDH]

And, Donal, some of us then even join. I am really not interested in being a Conservative if all it means is being a pale imitation of the Party under Thatcher. It's like a LibDems for GrownUps party now.

[Mr Angry]

No Justin this is NOT good news, it is an affront to democracy and an insult to genuine conservatives.

[deborah]

This is lousy news.
Regional Selection Boards, like Regional Assemblies, should be abolished. The Conservative Party needs to reinstate some democracy.

[Mr Angry]

Oh and perhaps CCHQ can answer this:

If it is so very important for our candidates to be "representative" of our diverse communities (provided that is that they are still lawyers and bankers really) then why is it not important for them to also be representative of the views of both the people they represent and the membership of our party when it comes to Europe?

ANSWER PLEASE!

[Paul Kennedy]

Well those are the first 3 on the list, but don't we have another 4 or so more people on the full list, and how are they selected.

[Editor]

Yes Paul but a fourth candidate has a very uncertain chance of being elected.

[Lucy Porter]

I am very happy Saj got voted on.

I know we can question defections, but having met Saj both before and after his defection I believe he is very genuine.

Also imagine if he hadn't got in the top 3. We would never have someone defect to us ever again.

Look at the people who have left us for Labour... they have all been treated very well.

Anyway, this is GOOD NEWS!!!!

[GA]

As someone who lives in the North West I am very happy with this result.

Well done to all 3 MEP's.

[Ashton Cull]

AS far as it seems to me, he has not receieve any preferential treatment because of his defection. He has been treated exactly the same as any other Conservative MEP

[Chris Palmer]

Good news for whom, Lucy?

This is an absolute disgrace.

[Peter]

This is an excellent result. Since when has a political party been so narrow minded to reject a very able and willing member?

As someone said to me, when canvassing do you say to a convert "well thank you for supporting us, but no thank you - we are not taking converts at this election".

[Treacle]

Does anyone believe that if Mr Karim had done better in the Lib Dem rankings for the MEP slots he would have suddenly discovered his beliefs were in tune with David Cameron and come over to us?

If you genuinely think he would then don't let me disturb your wait for the Tooth Fairy....

[Had Enough!]

Get a life! Over the years I have really liked reading con home but the comments on here are getting worse and worse.

I sometimes think Cameron could state water is wet and some Con Home posters would find a way of criticising him for it.

This Lib Dem chap was treated the same as any other sitting Tory MEP - he was re-selected by a vote of the local constituency chairman and so coupld have been ditched but it was ordinary members who chose not to.

Defections may not be perfect but they attract a lot of positive publicity and as we are (or should be) in the business of winning elections we should welcome them.

Con Home's old guard should either get with it or ship off somewhere else. This party has always modernised and changed to meeting the changes priorities of Britain - stop your pathetic moaning. I bet most of the moaners on here are the same people who sit on the back row of Executive Committees up and down the country making comments like "leaflets dont work' 'canvassing annoys people' etc etc.

Go away if you dont like it and go and post on UKIPHOME instead or someother nutty site. Stop bringing the rest of us down.

[Mike A]

This site is largely commented-on by people who want to be MPs and MEPs - hence the hostility - but how stupid would it be for the Party not to treat defectors well?

[MHDH]

Mike A. I resigned from the Candidates' List the day after Cameron became leader, so I ask for no preferment. However, I think that you miss 2 points. 1. there are many loyal, hard working dedicated Conservatives who might wish to be MPs/MEPS, whose track record and commitment mean they deserve consideration above a defector. 2. I think it may speak volumes about Cameron's view of his own side when he undertakes the politically correct course of favouring people on the basis of gender and race above those of ability as is shown by the A List and his treatment of defectors.

Oh, yes. I say this as a defector myself. But I left the Conservatives for UKIP.

[James]

This is just realistic politics.

Defections to us are good. They show that we are on the up, and the party the defector came from is on the slide.

We need to encourage them.

The only way to do that is to possibly offer them an incentive, but to at least not penalise them. As has been stated, Sajjad has been treated the same as the other incumbent Conservative MEPs.

Do you want defectors or not? As Peter said at 1608, what a strange Party it would make us if the answer was no!

[Paul Oakley]

James at 19:38. We should welcome defectors who genuinely share Conservative principles. It would be great, for example, to see the entire membership of UKIP come back home to us.

However, it is legitimate to enquire about the motives of all defectors. Have they truly seen the light or is their conversion purely for reasons of self-interest? They ought to be asked to prove themselves over a period of time rather than be immediately rewarded as has happened on more than one occasion recently. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth for many of us.

[Malcolm Dunn]

I'm glad I don't live in this area. I would find it very difficult to campaign for someone who I had absolutely no influence in getting selected. And James, what value are defections like this really? Has this chap really undergone a damascene conversion or as has been suggested by both Lib Dems and Conservatives does personal ambition determine his party?
Had Enough! Yours has got to be the worst post on Cohome for many months.

[Steve]

Q. If an individual with no current politcal track record wished to be elected as a Conservative MP at the General Election after next, would they be better off:-

A) Applying to get on the CCHQ approved candidates list, fighting an unwinnable seat at the next GE and then seeking to be selected for a winnable or even Conservative held seat next time,

or

B) Applying to get on the LibDem/Labour approved candidates list, fighting an unwinnable seat at the next GE, finding a reason to jump ship and join the Conservatives, applying to be on the CCHQ approved candidates list then seeking to be selected for a winnable or even Conservative held seat next time.

If you select B) what does it tell us about the state of politics in this country?

Q. What long term effect does it have on the culture of the UK if political parties set the example that disloyalty pays off?

Q. Would any political party in this country wish to encourage disloyalty in any other field of endeavour?

Re an earlier post, I do think that leaflets work, that's why I was out delivering them on Xmas Eve and the day after Boxing Day, in case anyone was wondering. (and they were Conservative leaflets as well.)

[Sally Roberts]

"Go away if you dont like it and go and post on UKIPHOME instead or someother nutty site. Stop bringing the rest of us down."

I don't know who you are, "Had Enough" but I totally agree with you.

I would just like to congratulate the three on their result - especially Saj Karim - and I welcome the work they will be doing in the North West.

[Sally Roberts]

No, Malcolm! Had Enough is absolutely right and I for one am tired of the silliness that goes on here sometimes! If I thought the unhelpful and narrow minded comments were from genuine members of the Conservative Party I would be inclined to resign my membership (which I have held for 29 years!) - but I know that they are not. There are enough decent hard-working members of the Conservative Party around and the "Little England tendency" is in fact a very small minority. For that I am very thankful!
Apologies for the outburst but I am One Very Angry Lady.

[Rob Largan]

Sorry but some of the comments here are ridiculous, bordering on the hysterical.

Saj was given identical treatment to any other sitting Conservative MEP. He faced some extremely tough questions which he answered articulately and demonstrated clear conservative principles.

Thanks to his efforts we now have a Conservative voice back on Manchester City Council for the first time in over a decade.

I think it would be wise for people to start focusing on getting a fourth Conservative MEP in the North West.

[anthony scholefield]

These three are all raving eu lovers and would all kill their grandmother if necessary.
This is fantastically good news for UKIP must induce despair in those few who think the Tory party will ever do manything to reform the EU.

[Chris Palmer]

'I for one am tired of the silliness that goes on here sometimes!' - Sally Roberts

Yes, why can't everyone just agree with the leadership little good little boys and girls? It would all also be so much easier wouldn't it?

Seriously though, Sally (and others,) I expect there is much more anger at the fact that the selection of Conservative candidates (and therefore pretty much MEPs because they are safe seats) has not been taken by the membership but by a very small select few Chairman who will undoubtedly have been pressurised into giving the go-ahead to all the candidates for fear of their heads being bitten off by the party hierarchy.

Being an elected politician is a public service - not a job for life. I don't expect there would be as much resentment if the party membership had been allowed to vote on whether Mr Karim was selected. But party members were not allowed that opportunity, and that is not very democratic is it?

And yes, also I agree with Malcolm Dunn that the comment by 'Had Enough' is among the worst I have seen in some time. Occasionally I suspect that comments like that are a wind-up, but I suspect that unfortunately 'Had Enough' is probably quite genuine in their belief that nobody should criticise our Conservative politicians, whatever they may do.

[Klaxon]

This says some very important things:

1. The party do not trust the membership to make the 'correct' decision, and therefore measures are taken to ensure the correct decision is reached. This rather like the way the trade unions or the old soviet central committee operate. It is certainly not democratic.

2. It clearly shows that rewarding defectors is a higher priority than ensuring long-standing, time served Conservatives have a fair chance of serving. It is particularly galling when the defector defected when he had a very good chance of losing his seat. Sajid's defection was more about saving his own neck, not serving the people!

3. This, along with the A list for PPCs shows the party is centralising power ever more, and makes a mockery of our party's claims to believe in devolution, and personal empowerment. A clear example of 'do as I say and not as I do'.

4. I believe there is a clear effort to prevent true eurosceptics (you know, the 'nutters') from getting into electable positions. Instead the party is going to represented by those who are committed to the concept of Europe as a political entity and our on-going membership of it. This is NOT REPRESENTATIVE of either the party, or a large section of the UK people who want much loser links with the EU.

5. Don't be surprised if the UKIP score some big hits in the election. The UKIP might have useless morons like Graham Booth in their ranks, but they absorb votes of many tories who are not signed up to the federalist programme.

[Janet Clowes]

Oh Dear! What a diverse mixture of views! Let's please remember that all candidates had to undergo the same procedures (irrespective of their immediate backgrounds). I take particular issue with comments criticising 'select few chairmen' on the selection committee - the selection committee was made up of individuals, who as some point at AGM's across the regions' associations, were selected by members from across the North West (and who in the case of my NW constituency, actually asked association members and officers if we had questions we would like them to raise on behalf of our North West Party members at this selection meeting). This is democracy in action and as such is to be welcomed. It would be such a refreshing change, if for once, people would temper their cynicism with respect for the integrity of those who members select at association level, to represent them in these procedures.

[Chris Palmer]

'Let's please remember that all candidates had to undergo the same procedures' - Janet Clowes

Sitting MEPs who wished to reapply as candidates for the 2009 elections were given preferential treatment in that they could go straight to the top of the list automatically above all other candidates who may have applied. This therefore massively protected incumbency, especially in any region where the previous MEPs are not standing down. Not the same procedures at all.

Secondly, you say that appointed persons by the membership (ie. Area Chairman) have made decisions on their behalf (representative democracy is what you are saying.) Yet, in fact before the new procedures were brought in, the members didn't need to go through their Chairman, even if they are now given an opportunity of being 'consulted' (which I expect is probably the exception rather than the rule,) and therefore it is just taking decision making ever further away from ordinary members - or indeed the voting electorate. It has been done, as Klaxon quite rightly points out, because the party hierarchy cannot trust the membership to make the 'correct' decision.

You also say, 'This is democracy in action and as such is to be welcomed'. So was the previous iteration - more so than now. Why was wrong with that? Surely you should be arguing that we go back to the old system if you are so in favour of 'democracy', or did you agreed with the changes to candidate selection, Janet?

[Conservative Comrade]

I guess this guy (whoever he is), just collected his reward.
What he gives back remains to be seen.....

[Dale]

I thought that we conservatives supported open primaries for candidates?

[Sally Roberts]

Nice to see some sensible views, Janet Clowes! You are obviously someone who is genuinely involved, works hard and simply wants to see the best people selected - which (I make the point again) is all that the GENUINE Party members want!
As for some of the other comments I've noticed - well it probably isn't the first time I've been referred to as a homicidal maniac - but sadly both my grandmothers died back in 1973! Never mind, I've been taking my medication so you're all quite safe for the time being ;-)

[William Humbold]

In any case, support Free Europe and vote YES at www.FreeEurope.info!

[Malcolm Dunn]

Sorry to anger you again Sally! But I'm a bit hacked off myself. I hate the list system, I hate the fact that Party members (contrary to the assertion made by Had Enough) have no say whatsoever on who should be our candidates and I hate the fact that someone who until very recently had been espousing views that I believe would be a disaster for my country is now going to be representing the party I love.

[Deborah Dunleavy]

I understand why people may not agree with selecting Saj, and the process involved. I really do understand this, as someone who campaigned in Bolton North East for Peter Thurnham in 1992 GE. It left very bad feelings to watch him join the Lib dems. I'm now PPC in Bolton NE, and still find it hard to think about Peter in a good terms.
However, my priority is to return a Conservative MP to Westminster, and I believe Saj can help with this, therefore, I am going to support him. Saj can make a difference in seats like mine, and seats like mine are vital in the conservatives forming the next government.
Isn't that what we all want? Nothing is ever ideal, but lets not fight with one another, lets get a Conservative government elected!

[Duncan]

Editor- are you able to run a feature on all the MEPs standing again and the ones standing down, so activists know who is up for election this time round?

[James Graham]

"He only defected from the LibDems at the end of November after scoring badly in the LibDems' only selection vote."

He came second. It was only a poor result in that he failed leapfrog over the incumbent first placed candidate.

[Sally Roberts]

Malcolm, don't worry about it! I can assure you my anger is nothing personal and indeed you have honestly and eloquently expressed your view as you have every right to do.
On the subject, Duncan of an article on all the different MEPs standing for re-election - do you not think that in light of the tone of various comments this might lead to an unpleasant slanging match. I do not wish to see hard working and respectable Members pilloried!!

[Westmorland Activist]

Deborah - were you aware that even worse, Peter Thurnham is now one of the principal financial backers of Lib Dem MP Tim Farron.

This is the man who went to the Nationals and the Beeb complaining when Westmorland and Lonsdale didn't interview him in 1995. What a great man of principle !

It would be true to say that Tim Collins would still be an MP if it were not for Peter Thurnham.

[Pamela Goodwin]

Saj Karim has already thrown his toys out of one pram.

If he fails to get re-elected I see him throwing them all out again.

[James]

Bear with me if this post seems off topic for a bit...

In some ways, this discussion is on a par with the arguments/dilemmas that often crop up at council level with regard to doing deals with the Lib Dems.

On my local council, we were in control in coalition with the Lib Dems, and even though we had a tiny number of councillors we punched well above our weight, with two of our councillors serving in the cabinet. Lab were only in the minority by one councillor though.

It was suggested that we do a deal with the Lib Dems by not putting up candidates in seats that we didn't have a hope in hell of winning, but where support for our candidate might allow a Lab candidate to oust the incumbent Lib Dem (our coalition partners, remeber). In return, they woudl do the same. Thus we would each help to protect the Conservative/Lib Dem joint majority.

In the end, some of the more...set in their way members...objected strenuously. How dare we consider doing such a sordid deal. Where were our Conservative principles etc.

The result? Labour unseated enough of us and the Lib Dems to take control of the council. And our coalition fell apart. We went from being in joint control, with two councillors in the cabinet (and able to exert a lot of influence, keep Council Tax down etc), to being the smallest group of councillors, sitting on the sidelines with no power or influence, while Labour prepare to ruin everything again (after votintg themselves fat increases in allowances of course!).

So what does all this have to do with the thread?

At what point does realipolitik override principle? Should it ever override principle? Are we better off having lost the council to Labour, but retained our so-called principles? Or should we have done the deal with the Lib Dems and retained power and influence above our numbers?

The same problem occurs with defectors. Paul and Malcolm responded to my comment on 13 Jan questioning my reasoning over this, but to my mind politics is sometimes a dirty business, where compromises and deals need to be doen. Sometimes you hold your nose when you're doing it, but if you want to play fair, adopt the Queensbury rules, and never do those deals (or welcome those defectors) then chances are you opponent (who is less principled) will beat you.

Defectors are good for the party. They create an image in the minds of the electorate of us being a party on the up, and the losing party being on the down. They reinforce the momentum of our current successes.

As has been said above - what a strange party we would be if we turned away those who change their spots and wish to join us. Some have questioned his Conservative beliefs - well, I don;t know him well enough to judge him, but the local area chairmen quizzed him and he satisfied them. They were not CCHQ placemen, they were grassroots chairmen.

Sorry for th long post, but I think we sometimes get too caught up in the ideals of principles and debate, and forget sometimes that we're involved in a dirty fight where we need to be willing to make compromises if we wish to win.

Any thoughts?

[Sally Roberts]

James - I don't know who you are, but it is very obvious that you have a genuine understanding what sometimes needs to be done in politics!

[Londoner]

James, my first thought is: are you talking about Lambeth?

Apart from that, I think a big problem with local Govt is that the parties have few distinctive policies and the main issues are ones of competence and the management culture of the officers. In Lambeth that culture (and incompetence) is appalling and sadly the Lib Dem/Tory coalition did not change it at all, partly because there were too many low-grade Councillors, some in senior positions, who had never run anything and seemed to have little idea that that was the problem, let alone how to deal with it.

So, to get back a bit nearer topic: if politicians are seen just to duck and dive to keep in office with no clear idea what they are going to do with it, it just turns people off. And if there is little difference between the parties, what are Councillors striving to keep in power for, other than to keep their disgraceful allowances and pathetic "Cabinet" positions?

In contrast, I suspect that there ARE real differences between the sort of things MEPs of different parties do, certainly good ones like our two London MEPs who are standing again.

[Fred Brown]

I see Mr Karim is so happy with his new found "Liberal Conservatives" he has already defied the whip...............

The Guardian 23 Jan 08 .......spare a thought, too, for Saj Karim, the MEP who defected from the Lib Dems. It's less than two months since he did the deed, but could he be feeling lonely? Last week, when the European parliament voted on a resolution on the Fundamental Rights Agency - the successor to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia - the Tories voted against the report, as did that battler for justice, Jean-Marie Le Pen. But Saj broke with the Tory whip and voted in favour. From one loveless marriage to another. All so unnecessary. All so sad.

[Deborah Dunleavy]

I did know that Peter Thurnham was a financial supporter of the Lib Dems in Westmorland - and it appalls me!
However I'm not sure he lost Tim Collins his seat, I'm sure your aware I applied for the Westmorland and Lonsdale seat, and would of been proud to represent them. In my research of the area I sadly found a lack of support for Tim C as they simply didn't see him. I found many Tory voters who pledged their support to me if chosen who where delivering leaflets for Tim Farron - because they said he worked hard for the area and their Conservative MP hadn't.
I'm not sure I should be so honest, but there you have it!
Please don't shoot the messenger!