Conservative Home's debate blogs

My Photo

Conservative blogs

About Conservative Home

Advertising

  • DVD rental
  • Conservative Books

Twitter Updates

    follow me on Twitter

    Jonathan Isaby's twitterings

      follow me on Twitter

      Tim Montgomerie's Twitterings

        follow me on Twitter

        « Seb Coe and Jacques Chirac bring Olympics to Britain | Main | Terrorists have filled the shoes of pranksters »

        TrackBack

        TrackBack URL for this entry:
        http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d83451b31c69e200d8342cf14053ef

        Listed below are links to weblogs that reference 7/7:

        Comments

        Danny Kruger

        Conservativehome is betraying its authoritarian instincts - "Civil liberties should never be compromised unnecessarily, but..." I take this to mean support for home detention, ID cards and the rest - legislation which (in order not to offend multicultural sensibilities) will be applied to everyone living in the UK. Spain had ID cards years before Madrid; home detention would create shrines of "oppression" within the country (ie the detainees' homes) for radicalised Islamists to worship at. Surely the right response is both softer and tougher than this. The soft approach: recognise that there is a cultural problem more than security one: young Muslims need to be integrated into British culture by a conservative resistance to the forces of consumerism, relativism and hedonistic despair that make the West so contemptible in the eyes of the devout. And the tough approach: resolute action to disrupt terror networks abroad (which we are doing), and straightforward deportation of foreign nationals deemed to pose a threat to the UK (which we are not doing. Disrupt the global networks and deport the foreign incitors; but don't clamp down on the law-abiding British. Social conservatives should not stray into illiberalism.

        William Norton

        The great merit of ID cards is that you know where to send the wreath when you've picked up the pieces of the suicide bomber.

        Can't see how they would do much otherwise. ID cards could help track a terrorist if you know who he is - but they won't help you find out who he is in the first place. Better to spend the money on a recruitment drive for MI5 in Bethnal Green.

        Editor

        Danny -

        You and I agree on disrupting overseas terrorist networks.

        But you want to deport foreign terrorists. Deport them where? Much better to lock them up where they can't harm us. It has been said 'Prison works!' and I agree.

        By tough I mean controlled borders and strong police observation of suspected terrorist cells. If the Human Rights Act gets in the way of defending the homeland we should repeal it.

        The Telegraph may regard this as authoritarian. But sometimes authoritarian measures are necessary. We are at war with a foe that will stop at nothing to destroy us.

        I agree with you on consumerism etc. We need to unite with the majority of Muslims who oppose the extremist Islamists who hate the west and its values. But this long-term strategy doesn't offer us much-needed and immediate protection.

        I hope you Danny - despite being at the Telegraph (with its support for Labour's disastrous decriminalisation of cannabis) - agree that the Tories can't stop at opposing badly-handled measures like Labour's ID cards bill. Conservatives must put forward their own - more credible - anti-terror measures. And we must do so with grit and energy... before it's too late.

        Danny Kruger

        Deportation or prison - when it comes to foreign nationals I don't mind which (cheaper to deport them, though). What I object to is making British nationals subject to "control orders" - aka imprisonment without trial. Because this government is a) essentially illiberal and b) craven in the face of the multicultural orthodoxy, they won't apply their powers of discretionary coercion to foreigners only (as would be quite justified) but to all of us. I agree we have a problem when our own fellow nationals conceive a murderous hatred against us and our values. But pre-emptive detention on mere suspicion is not the answer: better law-enforcement and better rules about admissable evidence (phone taps etc) are - we need to bring suspects to trial, not suspend habeas corpus.

        Editor

        Agreed, Danny. It may be financially cheaper to deport people but not if they remain free to attack us in future. I'd rather suspected terrorists were under lock and key.

        James Hellyer

        "But you want to deport foreign terrorists. Deport them where?"

        Back whence they came. Other countries manamge this even though they signed up to Article 3 of the ECHR.

        William Norton

        How about this: (a) if we think they're hostile, and we can prove they've committed acts against us, put them on trial wherever they come from;
        (b) if we think they're hostile, and they're foreign, but they haven't yet committed an act against us or we can't prove it or they've been acquitted, deport them;
        (c) if we think they're hostile, and they're from here, but we can't prove it then they're innocent until proven guilty but we'll keep an eye on them.

        This means:
        (I) Repeal the Human Rights Act. It has become bogged down in irrelevance and litigation (or the fear of it). The aims of the Act could be achieved by declaring some general principles of legal interpretation.
        (II) Criminalise not just terrorism anywhere or acts preparatory to terrorism anywhere but also aiding or comforting or failing to reveal knowledge of same*. The authorities will need fairly robust legal grounds for acting.
        (III) Probably change the rules of evidence relating to this wider range of terrorist offences - but only those.
        (IV) Junk "multiculturalism" and the gutless liberal waffle that goes with it and replace it with something genuine - there is a real opportunity here to define what it is that makes Britain great, and hence worth not just defending, but also worth sharing. But that will also require acting in a compatible way: stamp out racism, stamp out ID cards.
        (V) The response to the question "Deport them where?" is "Back where they came from". Some of the destinations might not welcome them with open arms, and some of the deportees will probably come to a sticky end, but that isn't our problem (see IV above).
        (VI) Implement an asylum/immigration system which actually works, and which enshrines the principles above. Mr Kruger can supply you with all the details of that one.

        *This is not meant to be a rigorous definition, and it is not as authoritarian as it sounds - misprision of treason is already quite a wide offence, it's just nobody is ever charged with it. In effect you would be widening the definition of treason to include world terrorism: ie terrorism is a betrayal of all of us.

        William Norton

        I should of course have added:
        (VII) Expel Adams and McGuinness from their offices in the Commons.

        James Hellyer

        "I'd rather suspected terrorists were under lock and key."

        So the burden of proof is on of those traditional liberties you would restrict?

        Editor

        'Under lock and key' is a better option than deportation, James.

        You, Danny and William all appear to prefer deportation. William says that "some of the deportees will probably come to a sticky end, but that isn't our problem." I think it is our problem. I don't want to deport people to torture and horrible deaths.

        Neither do I want to deport to them to regimes that might be unable to keep them from doing us harm in future.

        Guantanamo-type options have their faults but they are the safest options.

        Editor

        By the way, William, I agree with all of your other recommendations - especially (VII). Red Ken Livingstone is clearly outraged at what was done to London yesterday but his past pandering to the IRA and the hospitality he has given to Muslim extremists make him an entirely unconvincing anti-terrorist.

        Andrew

        Tim: How about letting the bodies grow cold before you start slating the left and condemning us to an authoritarian hell?

        Danny: Proud to be a Conservative reading your thoughts - I hope you run again, and get a good safe seat. You get my vote.

        Editor

        One of the best ways we can honour the dead, Andrew, is to protect those still living. I'm sure you agree with that and I'm sorry if you think this blog has too quickly started to look at the politics and policies of protecting the still living. I meant to cause no offence and I'm genuinely sorry if I have caused any to anyone - not least you.

        Serious debate on the appeasement of the IRA, deportation versus detention arrangements and the control of our borders can't happen too quickly, however. I don't think what I support is "authoritarian" any more than the 1980s Prevention of Terrorism Act was. You talk about an "authoritarian hell" - failing to fight the war on terror - and we aren't yet fighting it properly - is a sure way to lead to more human hells like yesterday.

        James Hellyer

        "'Under lock and key' is a better option than deportation, James."

        I strongly disagree. Agreements can be made with foreign governments to safeguard the well being of anyone who is deported. Such arrangements have already been brokered by other EU countries.Importantly this would be within the law.

        Detention without trial, however, takes away any right we have to moral supeiority. We were supposed to be freeing the people of Iraq and Afghanistan from tyrannies that subjected their peoples to arbitray arrest. It is therfore hypocritical in the extreme to enact the same at home.

        Oliver McCarthy

        I really cannot understand Danny Kruger's distinction between "British" and "foreign" nationals. Suppose all four of the bombers on Thursday turn out to be "British nationals"! What then? We're not fighting an enemy on the other side of the world, we're fighting a civil insurgency that's taking place in this country right here, right now. And civil liberties aren't going to stop the bombs.

        James Hellyer

        "And civil liberties aren't going to stop the bombs."

        But they are what we are fighting to defend. There is no point defending our way of life, it we intend to disband it ourselves as part of that defence.

        Simon C

        We now know that these attcaks were from home-grown suicide bombers.

        Is it too much to hope that there will be an increase in understanding of the Israelis' situation? Jerusalem is a far smaller city than London, in terms of both population & geography. Its inhabitants have had to live with suicide attacks on public transport for longer than Londoners. Ken Livingstone, amongst others, should pause for thought.

        JEROGatch

        xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2 xoomer.xxxvideos2

        bbn

        MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE MEGSPASE

        idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG idisk.VIDEOSBLOG


        $uperEVAvideos-movies
        $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies $uperEVAvideos-movies

        Michael Kors bags

        "Like, I have no time to continue to talk idly with you, that wench etc. will wake up will be hungry." [url=http://cheapmulberrycrossbodyhandbags.webs.com/]Michael Kors bags[/url] Michael Kors bags

        Mulberry bags

        The words that hear Yang Yi, the cold Europe Chen is tiny to tinily sigh tone:"Are you worried if the brother-in-law had an accident?" [url=http://cheapmulberrysomerset.webs.com/]Mulberry bags[/url] Mulberry bags

        Michael Kors bags

        The upset performance is on the face, Yang Yi lightly of the Song shrug shoulders, like this and at will lie at sofa up, at the moment of she is just the shape of a neighbouring elder sister elder sister, completely have no at school that kind of cold inconsiderate shape. [url=http://cheapmulberryshoulderbags.webs.com/]Michael Kors bags[/url] Michael Kors bags

        Burberry bags outlet

        The words that hear Yang Yi, the cold Europe Chen is tiny to tinily sigh tone:"Are you worried if the brother-in-law had an accident?" [url=http://burberrybowlingbags.webs.com/]Burberry bags outlet[/url] Burberry bags outlet

        Verify your Comment

        Previewing your Comment

        This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

        Working...
        Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
        Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

        The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

        As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

        Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

        Working...

        Post a comment