It's lawlessness which is on the increase

Crime figures are going down, according to the Government stats. People are sceptical. As an old TV commercial used to say, the stain says Hot, the label says Not.

The final impotence of those with no solutions and a fare share of the blame, is to bleat about the sensationalism of the media. On the contrary, I would suggest that in various ways the media actually plays down the extent of the problem.

Of course we know that the likes of the Guardian will pretend there isn't any kind of breakdown. To say there was would be to admit to the results of years of liberal handiwork, and that would require real moral courage. It's not going to happen.

However other, more populist papers such as my own local, the London Evening Standard, have striven manfully to keep afloat the 'narrative' of the capital as a great, diverse, dynamic city like no other which is a massive success story, and a model for the world. I am a Londoner and love the city, but this is a myth. Like New York before Guiliani, London is slowly becoming unliveable in.

I'd suggest that the reason people feel that crime is more rampant is because, on an everyday level, they see low-level disturbances and anti-social behaviour which might actually fly under the radar of criminality, but which manages to alienate, frighten and disturb. Eventually, many draw the conclusion that there is a growing 'lawlessness.' The public arena appears to be increasingly dangerous to be in, and so they retreat from it.

The BBC reports today that two police officers have been attacked by a mob in south London when they asked a 15-year-old girl to pick up some litter she dropped. Metropolitan Police said one of the officers suffered injuries including a bite wound in the attack in North End in Croydon, on Wednesday afternoon.

In actual criminal, statistical terms, this incident will, on paper, probably appear as a series of 'smaller' offences. But try to imagine the effect of it on the people who must have witnessed it.

Comments

[James Burdett]

Absolutely I read that story with horror. It feeds into a much wider narrative that too many people are growing up without boundaries. The fact that a group of individuals deemed it in anyway acceptable to challenge the public face of order shows the supreme urgency of getting to grip with the welter of social problems afflicting this country.

[Dick Wishart]

But most importantly will this actually be recorded as a crime, somehow I doubt it.

[Tim Montgomerie]

That BBC story is genuinely shocking.

[Alexander King]

A bit of crime and aggression is the sign of a vibrant society. It's the flip side of the go-getting entrepreneurial spirit that we need to encourage in this country. The US has immense levels of violent crime but is one of the most vibrant societies on earth.

Much of this crime takes place amongst immigrant communities who will eventually assimilate and adapt to the wider moeurs of society. This is precisely what happened with Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans.

Frankly, if you are middle class and live in a decent area, then you are very unlikely to be remotely affected by violent crime. The media has a vested interest in pushing a Broken Britain agenda because it helps to sell papers.

It is the stagnant, hidebound societies of Japan and Scandinavia that have most to worry about. Long live the island savage.

[Cassilis]

This is lazy Peter. I'm a moderate Tory but there's a need to engage with this issue properly and the crime figures are so overwhelmingly positive (by which I mean downward trends) that it simply won't wash to dismiss them with an anecdote or two.

You suggest that "low-level disturbances and anti-social behaviour" might miss the figures but be so wide-spread as to feed public concern. That's possible and if so needs addressing but that subtlety needs to exist in any response politicians make.

[dizzy]

"London is slowly becoming unliveable in."

Absolutely. Eight more months and I'm out and back to the Shires.

[Sally Roberts]

"Frankly, if you are middle class and live in a decent area, then you are very unlikely to be remotely affected by violent crime."

I wouldn't be too sure about that, Alexander - try making the mistake of going to the centre of Guildford (for example) on a Friday or Saturday night!!

The latest stabbing to death of a young man happened last night in a street in Stockwell near an area where many politicians live - in fact one newspaper mentioned it was near Edward Garnier's home.

Make no mistake, we all have the possibility of being affected by violent crime.

[Sven]

"Frankly, if you are middle class and live in a decent area, then you are very unlikely to be remotely affected by violent crime."

The implication of this (perhaps I'm wrong) is that the poor can go hang, because their suffering crime is the price that must be paid in order to live in a "vibrant" society. It's not often you read things this stupid Alexander.

"Much of this crime takes place amongst immigrant communities who will eventually assimilate and adapt to the wider moeurs of society. This is precisely what happened with Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans."

Crime is only a problem amongst recent immigrants? A disproportionate amount of crime in America is committed by and visited on blacks. They are one of America's oldest immigrant groups.

"It is the stagnant, hidebound societies of Japan and Scandinavia that have most to worry about. Long live the island savage."

Perhaps these societies do have serious problems, but I don't think you can spin their low levels of criminality (relative to us) into something bad.

Maybe your just trying to get a reaction? In which case I apologise for my lack of a sense of humour.

[ACT]

Look, if Peter feels that there's more cime, then obviously that trumps mere statistics.

[archie henderson]

Living here in Scotland, i don't get much news about London, there must be good news in the city but the only thing we get up here is when somebody is killed or knife crime, it gives a false view of what it might be like to live in a city. I stay in a town and we do have anti social crime and almost every week i read in the local paper about drug crimes and the odd person being stab, i would not like to live in a city.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

Look, if Peter feels that there's more cime, then obviously that trumps mere statistics.

Posted by: ACT | July 18, 2008 at 15:13

It depends on what is now considered to be a recordable crime. Have the goal posts been moved - some seem to believe they have?
Anyway, it has been pointed out, elsewhere, that the prisons are overflowing - leading to ealy release schemes. Crime falling, but the prison poulation growing. Your starter for ten?

[snegchui]

Crime statistics drive me mad. On the Parliament area, Dominic Grieve is saying that recorded violent crime has doubled in 10 years, and I don't see anybody challenging. Now if it is said in Parliament, and herself is glaring at him across the table, why is this statement not challenged?
I am afraid I just don't believe a word of any quoted stats on crime any more.
Why do these blasted statistics move over to be the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority which came in April this year? Independent of Govt and enforceable chastisement of spinning stats gets my vote.

-------------------------
The UK Statistics Authority comes into being on April 1st: independent of government, it will oversee all official figures, chastising anyone who misuses them and publicising flaws. Unlike its predecessor, the Statistics Commission—which had long pointed out weaknesses in migration statistics, to no avail—it will have the power to enforce improvements.

[NigelC]

Cassilis | July 18, 2008 at 14:49

You state
"the crime figures are so overwhelmingly positive (by which I mean downward trends) that it simply won't wash to dismiss them with an anecdote or two."

I suggest you read:
http://burningourmoney.blogspot.com/2008/07/listen-up-you-idiots-crime-is-down.html
and look at the ten year trends.
One year's data is just statistical noise.

[NigelC]

In any case perhaps the relevant measure is people's fear of crime rather than actual reported crime figures.
If people don't feel safe we have a problem regardless of the statistics.
I certainly don't enjoy being out late at night in city centres. I find the atmosphere threatening.

[Bob B]

According to this BBC Newsnight report in April about why London is different, 40 per cent of London residents were born abroad:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7368326.stm

This attack on and killing of a 16-year-old on the night of 3 July happened only a mile or so from where the police officers were attacked:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7503829.stm

[Tony Hannon]

I assume then that the next Conservative Government will never invoke the British Crime Survey if it shows falling crime?

[tired and emotional]

Let's not go mad! :P

[Deborah]

Who bothers reporting crime nowadays? What good does it do?

[David_McD]

"According to this BBC Newsnight report in April about why London is different, 40 per cent of London residents were born abroad"

So why should we be surprised that London is such a violent lawless place? Is it not logical to expect that crime amongst the distinct immigrant communities would be related to the level of crime in the societies from which they came which are, in some cases, very high (Somalia, Kurdistan, Algeria, the Balkans, etc).

There are quite large expatriate French and Japanese communities living in London too and, all other things being equal, I expect that these too reflect the crime rates of their native countries (low!!).

When is the Conservative Party going to emerge from the long grass on this issue?

[Cinnamon]

You've not seen anything yet -- wait until the depression starts to seriously kick in...

Note the coming increases in power bills -- what do you think will happen if certain groups of the population no longer can afford to run their playstation or a TV to keep them happy?

[john]

The Croydon incident demonstrates what worries people most - incivility, misbehaviour and violence in town centres.
Most of it isn't included in the crime figures, but it eats away at the quality of life.
If we have to double the number of police to regain the streets from the hooligans, I'll cough up however much is needed.

[Sam Tarran]

"But try to imagine the effect of it on the people who must have witnessed it."

Most likely, they'd loose respect for the authority of the police, assuming they had it.

[Malcolm Stevas]

John writes:
"...what worries people most - incivility, misbehaviour and violence in town centres.
...If we have to double the number of police to regain the streets from the hooligans, I'll cough up however much is needed."
A predictable Tory comment, if you don't mind my saying so. Double the number of coppers? Despite the rarity of a plod on foot sighting (in my case, once in my Westcountry village in 14 years) I would find a society with double the number of coppers even less inviting than I already find the present day UK. I mean, they spend little time catching bad-asses, AFAICS, and far too much time swaggering around in SWAT outfits or harrassing ordinary motorists. Deal with the "incivility" and otherwise high profile of yobs, rather, by (a) eliminating the Welfare State environment in which a parasitic underclass flourishes, and concomitantly (b) compelling the buggers to work or starve. They wouldn't have the time or inclination to hang around the streets bothering people, and - who knows - the imposition of a work ethic might actually instil some respect for others. In any case, I want my former (or my grandad's former) right to carry a handgun for self protection reinstated. That's the way to reclaim the streets.

[Matt Wright]

The stats we are getting (and that parts of the media, including the BBC, are playing up as a Govt success) do not reflect the truth. The public know it. The simple fact is that people have given up reporting the lawlessness around them because the system fails to do anything about it. I know this myself and I know this from residents. All too often we are encouraged to report stuff to local bobbies using their mobiles or e-mails and indeed giving the info direct to the bobby who knows the patch makes sense. However this stuff does not go onto the stats as its not rung through a control room and logged with an incident number. Yet ringing control rooms leads to being passed around and issues not being dealt with unless they are very serious. Incident numbers may lead to a letter at some later point about a number to ring if you have been stressed as a victim of crime. People don't want therapy they want to avoid being victims in the first place. People despair at the day to day anti-social behaviour but the response by the Govt and many senior police is PR learnt at the hands of the Labour spin machine.

[anthony scholefield]

'We all benefit from immigration'as is said in the good book,Conservative manifesto 2005.Presumably 2 less benefiters after today but shush!

[Bob B]

"The stats we are getting (and that parts of the media, including the BBC, are playing up as a Govt success) do not reflect the truth. The public know it."

This press report of 18 July puts the incidence of knife crime into an illuminating perspective:

"One person is the victim of a knife crime every four minutes, according to official Home Office figures released for the first time. Nearly 130,000 violent offences involved a knife last year - equivalent to almost fifteen an hour, the British Crime Survey showed."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2305891/One-person-is-a-victim-of-knife-crime-every-four-minutes.html

[Ben Stevenson]

Only a day later, here is another story of lawless children:

"Spanish students on a exchange trip to taste British culture were ambushed by a hooded gang who hurled bricks and bottles at them. Police said that some of the assailants were as young as 11.... "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4360316.ece

[Bob B]

This is one explanation for mindless yoof crime in today's news:

"Nearly one in five UK 16 and 17-year-olds are Neets - those neither in employment, education or training - a study seen by the BBC suggests. Official figures say such youths make up 7% of their age group in England."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7515042.stm

And just a few days ago:

"Youngsters leaving school in the United Kingdom without qualifications face increasing hardships in the jobs market, says an international study. A report from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development shows worsening conditions for poorly-qualified 16 to 24 year olds. Youth unemployment has risen from 11% to 14% since 2002, says the report."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7493695.stm

What was all that stuff in 1997 about a New Deal for youth financed by a one-off Windfall Tax on excessive profits?

[Philip]

Peter Whittle says, Of course we know that the likes of the Guardian will pretend there isn't any kind of breakdown. To say there was would be to admit to the results of years of liberal handiwork, and that would require real moral courage.

Absolutely right.

I too was shocked when I heard of what happened in Croydon – in afternoon shopping hours when many people about and in central Croydon and not at night nor in some ‘problem’ inner-city housing estate.

I agree that it is this type of disorder that is worrying people – and also it is the more serious crimes that are on the increase, such as knife crime, that worry people.

All examples of the results of removal of restraints and diminution of a sense of right and wrong in recent decades.

I hope that when in Government, we'll have the strength and courage to stamp out this type of lawlessness, in defiance of the liberal elite, for the sake of an increasingly worried public.

[Malcolm Stevas]

Philip writes:
"I hope that when in Government, we'll have the strength and courage to stamp out this type of lawlessness, in defiance of the liberal elite.."
I don't know whether you're an MP or a Tory supporter, Philip, but I get worried by expressions such as "stamp out". I mean, how will the Tories do that, exactly? Triple the number of police? Draconian punishments, including the "bring back National Service" so beloved of the Tory Heartland? Even more CCTV cameras than we already have - ? What I'd prefer to see the Tories having the guts to do is defy the "liberal elite" by tackling the root of the problem and extirpating the Welfare State's support for a sociopathic underclass. We already have plenty of laws against violence, affray, disorder etc: but we cannot legislate against self perpetuating lumpen yobbery, only do our best to see it wither away.

[Philip]

Malcolm Stevas, I do mean tough law and order measures such as zero-tolerance and punishments that deter etc. But I also agree about the need to tackle the causes of social breakdown with long-term solutions such as support for marriage, tackling family breakdown, educational failure, reducing dependence on the state...

[Jill, London]

I find Alexander King’s posting [of 18 July 14.36] naïve in the extreme. Likening “a bit of crime and aggression” to “the go-getting entrepreneurial spirit” in the US ignores other factors. This also smacks of a literal interpretation of Orson Welles’ speech in “The Third Man” – “in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." [Except the cuckoo clock didn’t originate in Switzerland!]

Entrepreneurship is actively encouraged in the USA, and I’m sure it’s no accident one of the reasons for this is they’ve never been strangled by an American equivalent of the political arm of the trade union movement [aka the Labour Party] that fosters the politics of envy. In the States, they don’t aim to level everything down to the lowest common denominator [the equality of misery], but strive to better themselves.

Still on the subject of the USA, policing does work. Visit Beverly Hills’ famous shopping street, Rodeo Drive, an ideal spot for thieves to operate – except they don't because the police are everywhere. However, they don‘t intimidate the law abiding – their presence acts as a deterrent.

[Alexander King]

"In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock".

Yes. Precisely.

Every culture needs some biff. People decay when things are too comfortable.

[Malcolm Stevas]

' "In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace—and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock".
Yes. Precisely.
Every culture needs some biff. People decay when things are too comfortable.'
Bit of gross oversimplification here - the reason so many people want to live in Switzerland and/or become Swiss (something the Swiss do not make easy) is that it's extremely prosperous, and very democratic indeed. I'd add that several hundred thousand Swiss members of their citizen army keep their automatic rifles & ammo at home, gun ownership generally is widespread, and shooting is the national sport - while their rates of armed crime involving firearms are almost exactly the same as ours, or better.
Switzerland's example is very apt - but not perhaps for the reasons assumed by either of these posters. The Swiss make some nice weaponry, too...