Why the laughter stopped

'What's going on at Westminster (re Gordon Brown) barely qualifies as tragedy even in the dramatic sense, let alone on the human register,' writes Mary Riddell in today's Telegraph. 'For real tragedy, look elsewhere. Today's doomed youth are dying not in the trenches of the Somme but in the streets of Britain. Robert Knox, the young actor stabbed to death last weekend, was the 14th teenager fatally stabbed in the capital this year. They are not dying for their country, like (Wilfred) Owen's compatriots. Most are not even dying for their iPods. They are dying because they're in the wrong postcode, or the wrong gang, or on the wrong side of an argument about nothing. Their killers are often those for whom a knife in the heart means little more than a casual goodbye.'

Such are the fruits of the social and cultural revolution which happened during the post-war period.

When I did some brief voluntary work at a youth correction facility in Los Angeles, the principal told me that one of the most depressing aspects of his work, compared to when he first started thirty years earlier, was the fact that there were never any problems in keeping order amongst the teenagers in his control. No mini-uprisings, few breaches of the rules. And why did this make him unhappy? It was simply the realisation that because life outside for most of these gangland boys has become so anarchic, and so lacking in any kind of structure, the institution they were now banged up in offered a welcome sense of order and set of guidelines. They were better off in than out.

Some people still do not quite get it, but the truth is that authority - from parental through to legal - has broken down in the UK. If the wheels are not to come off our society altogether, there has to be drastic action. No more initiatives or attempts to understand.

Some form of compulsory national service is now the only real way left. Not voluntary, not just a few months, and no self-serving gap-year style stints in Ghana, but an obligatory period of disciplined service which will genuinely empower young people and bring out their inner resources in a way which they probably simply cannot imagine now.

This used to be the call of Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells, and always raised a good laugh. The fact that there's less and less mockery of such a position is proof that people are indeed genuinely frightened at what is happening. Surely there must be at least one politician with enough nerve to raise the subject.    

Comments

[Tony Makara]

"authority - from parental through to legal - has broken down in the UK"

Anyone who has been a parent will know that children do not ask for, but do look for a structured routine with set times for meals, going to bed etc. Youth are not that far removed from childhood, most of these boys were in primary school only five or so years before. The problem is that once boys hit the teenage years they instinctively try to establish their own identity and try to become less dependent on the parents, this often leads to rebellious dress codes and behaviour. This period of transition is very difficult for parents to police, particularly in single mother households where the son often feels a natural drive to 'take over' and boss the house.

The fact that young boys no longer leave school and then go straight into work or training leaves them in a state of mental drift, is it any wonder therefore that these boys instinctively band together in a gang to give their lives a sense of belonging, a sense of meaning, a sense of structure? Of course the gangs are not the solution to the problems of identity that these boys face but the very fact that they are seeking to belong to something bigger tell that they crave to be a part of something.

I don't support the idea of military national service, however these boys should be able to join community groups that cater for their interests and that will give them an opportunity to bond and to belong. A lot of these kids view music and sport as very central in their lives so we should fund groups that will provide them with a safe place to go where they can share those interests with others.

Yesterday on TV I saw two young lads who were consciously trying to avoid the peer pressure to join gangs in Preston and instead they were investing their energy in making music. We need to support lads like this and give them the chance to build clubs and spread their idea of creativity as an alternative to the nihilistic and deadly culture of street gangs.

Shoving these lads in the army won't work, being a soldier requires a special mentality and temperament, one which most people on civvy street can never possess. We've got to reach young boys involved in street gangs by talking to them on their own wavelength and not ours.

[BW]

I agree in principal with what is said, but....

Tony Makara is right that the professional Army in this day and age is no place for conscripts.

There is, however, a middle way. A seperate National Service as part of the education system. Before graduating inot adulthood all youngester should do a form of disciplined National Service.

I do believe that in the right regime a few months would be enough to make a difference.

I would have a system run by ex-Army NCO's and officers providing 3 month compulsory courses. It should have rigid discipline and be modelled on 1950's style National service training. Yes, it should include 'beastings' adventure training and arms training too. It would give a sense of achievment, provide a 'father figure', in the corporals, something lacking only too often.

I am convinced that just 3 months would be enough to open the eyes of the young to a different and more worthwhile future. Many, I am sure, would end up joining the professional forces after 'graduation' and hence solve the recruitment problems.

[a-tracy]

What about the majority of children that just don't need this National Service, we always hear about the minority of teenagers causing problems but there are vast numbers of teens that are good, kind, work hard, are well behaved and have direction and purpose in their lives.

Three months compulsory courses! Rigid discipline, 1950's oh my. My children have a father figure, they are well disciplined and have strict boundaries, they are not lacking and don't need this service and if the Conservatives proposed making it compulsory I can see a great many people like myself that wouldn't vote.

My son will be working this summer, after his exams, to help to pay for his living expenses when he starts at university would your compulsory national service teens receive a paid wage?

[Libertarian]

So the way to tackle violent crime is to teach people to fight with knives and guns?

Conscription is slavery. Why should law-abiding young people suffer because of the criminal minority do not know how to behave?

Utterly pathetic nonsense!!!

[Tommy]

Does the state not already claim a large enough portion of a person's life, in terms of the state school environment most of us were shoved into and the time we now spend working to pay the state's taxation?

Yet more time should now be given over to the state? No.

In any case, how would a few months undo the damage caused through years of poor schooling and parenting?

You would be forcing decent, respectable young people into the same environment as the problem types. Who do you think would suffer when those runnning the programme weren't around?

[AlanofEngland]

Of course they shouldn't be in the forces, not as conscripts. But offenders should be sent to Iraq and Afghanistan as part of an ASBO, say 12 months, cooking for troops and cleaning their kit. Any yob who offends after knowing he will go there deserves all he gets!! Quite why an ASBO is something to brag about defeats me, but I think an ASBO done in Iraq would be an achievement. It would also make ME feel safer to know how far away they are!!

[Deborah]

"Why should law-abiding young people suffer because of the criminal minority do not know how to behave"

Read the papers, Libertarian. Law abiding young people are being murdered in our streets because the utterly pathetic nonsense foisted on us by libertarians has allowed the criminal minority to run riot and recruit record numbers of our youth.

[Roger Evans]

I agree with a-tracy and libertarian. The people who really suffer are not the adults who can cross the road to avoid an intimidating gang but the decent young people who are forced into daily contact with scumbags in the state school system - no crossing the road for them. Another year of forced socialisation with adults barking orders at them doesn't bear thinking about.

Can we, as Conservatives, focus our efforts on the anti social few rather than attacking the freedoms of everyone, please. We have had quite enough of blanket bans and restrictions from the present government.

[Bluesword]

"I would have a system run by ex-Army NCO's and officers providing 3 month compulsory courses. It should have rigid discipline and be modelled on 1950's style National service training. Yes, it should include 'beastings' adventure training and arms training too. It would give a sense of achievment, provide a 'father figure', in the corporals, something lacking only too often.

I am convinced that just 3 months would be enough to open the eyes of the young to a different and more worthwhile future. Many, I am sure, would end up joining the professional forces after 'graduation' and hence solve the recruitment problems."
BW 14.40

The problem is that the majority of children are brought up properly with a sense of discipline and respect - mine were and at 17 my oldest joined the army.

However, those that do not conform should be made to . . . using a scheme similar to the above.

We all know who the troublemakers are in our towns - a policy of zero tolerance should sort them out. Give them a hard time, teach them respect and self respect. Ignore the cries of horror from the liberal PC Brigade.

Lets reclaim our streets before the vigilantes do - and it won't be long before they are out. After an unprovoked attack in my town, the family of the victim gave the police the names and addresses of the culprits and 2 weeks to do something, otherwise they would!!!

[snegchui]

Does anyone know what the link between trauncy rates and gang membership is? I would be interested to know if gangs operate within schools, or just outside the school system. Are the majority of attacks carried out by truants who are practically outside the system whilst theoretically in it?
If it operates within the school system, there should be a chance to tackle it. I was disgusted some years ago by the refusal of teachers locally to let the Police into schools. The teachers screamed abuse at the Fascist Intervention and claimed to have all the answers, - I did not see this reflected in the street behaviour of their pupils. SO if gangs operate in schools, greater co-ordination within the local community services (Police , Councils, Schools, Park Staff, Drug Staff, Social Workers) must be a first step.
If it is purely outside schools, then it would be interesting to see what, if any links can be drawn between provision/absence of after-school activities (Scouts, Youth Centres, Community Centres, football clubs etc) and local rates of disorder. Some big cities may have a problem in that gangs travel off-patch to wreak havoc elsewhere. In Soviet Union, education covered imparting knowledge (and non-dissident ways of thinking) but also "upbringing" (vospitaniya", which was about fitting in and being community aware. This "upbringing" seems to be me to be missing from UK schools now. If wrong, have a rant.

[Pooter]

A ten-year plan
First, allow parents and teachers to establish discipline without fear of prosecution. I have never raised my hand to my own children, but they always had the suspicion that I might.
Secondly, children in schools must learn to respect the authority of the teacher: no negotiation, no treating everyone’s opinion as equally valid, just enlightened, kind paternalism, pace Cherie Blair and her kidney.
Thirdly, get children doing things in schools, not just sitting round discussing and filling in worksheets as though it was an Open University seminar. They need more and varied team games, making things, drama, music and singing, the wonders of real science (not debating bloody global warming again) To hell with the National Curriculum!
Fourthly, make schools smaller, and give every child a safe place to hang his coat and somewhere clean, pleasant and safe to take a crap. Take time to sit and eat a midday meal together; get rid this appalling grazing on crisps and fizzy drinks.
Finally, weed out incompetent or sadistic teachers, but back to the hilt those who tan some little scrote’s arse because he tells his teacher to **** off.
Start now with the reception classes and reap the benefits in ten years time.

[Libertarian]

Utter bo**ocks, Deborah! I read the papers. The problem lies with a police force that would rather go after Naomi Campbell than tackle young hooligans.

My local "bobbies" are a PC joke - too many small, fat women who couldn't catch a cold never mind a tall hoodie who has just mugged an old lady in the shopping centre.

[Graham]

I have three teenage friends who are out there now in the community doing voluntary work, in one case for year with no pay, supported by her friend and family. But If you told any of those three to do National Service they would refuse, point blank. Even if it meant lose out at university, their vote or being not allowed to drive until they are 25! The one who has taken the year out would go as far as refusing to take orders and would basically sit down and refuse to move. These three people have principles that they would fight for (Non-violently). They are would be called in WW2 conscientious objectors and would be prepared to go to prison, - (They would consider them selves as political prisoners and again refuse orders.) Their friends and family would back them all the way.

This idea is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It would hit those teenagers hardest you are trying to help their community by voluntary work and other means. There must be a better way to bring the problem ones in to line.

This whole idea stinks of Communism!!

[Deborah]

"My local "bobbies" are a PC joke - too many small, fat women who couldn't catch a cold" - Libertarian

The physical requirements of the police force have been downgraded (in the interests of equality), policemen have been confined to desk jobs with mindless bureaucracy (to avoid any suspicion of racism), and targets have been established which keep policemen running around in circles with their hands tied behind their backs (to pretend crime is falling).
I don't think you can really blame the police.

Actually, I'm glad they've gone after Naomi Campbell - she (allegedly) committed an assault.

[Richard]

At age 18 myself and my peers were law-abiding responsible adults on our way to university. If we had been dragged off to do national service there would have been outrage. I used to be very much in favour of the idea when I was much younger. Then I began to realise I'd resent being effectively enslaved for a year to do something I didn't want to do when I would rather be at university.

[RichardJ]

"Read the papers, Libertarian. Law abiding young people are being murdered in our streets because the utterly pathetic nonsense foisted on us by libertarians has allowed the criminal minority to run riot and recruit record numbers of our youth. "

I live in a very law abiding area where there is barely any crime at all. The problem with the idea of national service, as has been pointed out above, is that it inevitably drags in vast swathes of the population who don't need it. To put it bluntly, middle class kids in nice areas of the country will resent being compelled to associate with a bunch of violent chavs when they could be doing something far more enjoyable.

If you want to turn the entire South East yellow at election time by all means go ahead with this policy.

[Tommy]

Although when the police really feel strongly about something, like their own pay, they hit the streets in large numbers and march through the capital to make their point. What a pity they don't feel so strongly about the targets, and paper work and equality & diversity stuff.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

..... "They are would be called in WW2 conscientious objectors and would be prepared to go to prison, - (They would consider them selves as political prisoners and again refuse orders.) Their friends and family would back them all the way".

Posted by: Graham | May 29, 2008 at 17:32

I believe your teenage friends, apparently as nice as they are, are PC and mistaken. Fortunately, there were not too many "conscientious objectors backed up by their friends and families" during the last war otherwise you would be writing in German.
A spell of some form of National Service would send the correct patriotic (that word always upsets the Lefties and the PC adherents) message required in helping to define Britishness and have a cohesive team effect on the population that is now so diverse. Youngsters from all walks of life, creeds, accents and cultures would be thrown together into billets and under the same flag.

It wont happen, of course, the 'experts, on the BBC and the Lefties would persuade the public that "patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel". A quote, I am given to understand, that is always taken out of context. Britain is far from being an homogeneous unit and the will to make it more so does not exist, it is a torn country - as you can see from some of the comments above. The last paragraph by Peter Wittle points way:

"This used to be the call of Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells, and always raised a good laugh. The fact that there's less and less mockery of such a position is proof that people are indeed genuinely frightened at what is happening. Surely there must be at least one politician with enough nerve to raise the subject".

Sorry, Peter, but there isn't one.

[Tommy]

"Youngsters from all walks of life, creeds, accents and cultures would be thrown together into billets "

But many of us have already experienced "being thrown together" through many years spent within the state school system, and would rather resent being used for the purposes of social engineering for another two or three years.

[Conservative Candy]

I see National Service as one of the only ways in which to inject a sense of responsibility, patriotism, and discipline back into youths, turning them from children into adults.

It is not idiotic to believe in National Service but pragmatic. When people spout left wing crap, saying it is fascist and right-wing, thats exactly the liberal consensus of today which has got us in this mess, where boys are stabbing each other on the streets.

www.concandy.blogspot.com

[Tommy]

Patriotism, responsibility, discipline. Nothing to object to there, but how long would it be before the system was subverted by leftists in order to promote their own version of political correctness?

After all, using institutions of the state to promote their ideologies is one area of life where the Left is infinitely smarter than conservatives, just consider the school system, universities, local government, publically funded television.

Perhaps it's better not to give the state any more spheres of influence because one thing's for sure, it would only be a matter of time before it was being used against conservatives.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

"Youngsters from all walks of life, creeds, accents and cultures would be thrown together into billets "

But many of us have already experienced "being thrown together" through many years spent within the state school system, and would rather resent being used for the purposes of social engineering for another two or three years.

Posted by: Tommy | May 29, 2008 at 20:27

Tommy: Going to school is not the same as sleeping and living under the same roof; it is said that to really know someone you have to live with them; being bonded by sharing the same challenges; physical and mental obstacles that test your mettle, courage, determination; working together as a team, pitted against another; subject to a strict but fair discipline; being responsible for a high standard of cleanliness and dress; responding to orders and then enjoying the physical feeling of well being and pride in your team that has by now well and truly bonded.

Going to school and being mollycoddled by parents that drop you off, then pick you up and then smooth your passage to university is, Tommy, kids stuff. Tom, perhaps you couldn’t hack it. However, I am pleased to say that the reports from the British Army, as stated in the book ‘ Foreign Fields’ – it deals with Iraq and Afghanistan – is most praiseworthy of today's recruits in that they are as good as their fathers and grandfathers. Buy the book and read it and find out what is being done to protect your country. You might not approve, but they fight in order that you may have the freedom to disapprove.

Sorry, Tom, but schooling these days is just kids stuff. As they say in the army, “Get fell in”.

[Patsy Sergeant]

Oh dear! Of course YOUR children are OK, a-tracy @ 14.55, your children have apparently had reasonably stable parental guidance!

Tony Makara - How would you propose that, the type of children who 'bunk' off school (and there are quite a large number who DO do this), should be persuaded to stay in a nice kindly 'community group', with nice kindly people who want to help each child find out what they are interested in. Even given that there would be sufficient instructors, qualified both in actual qualifications, and also more importantly time and characteristics, to be able to cope with hardened street-wise teenagers, what would be the use in sending these misfits back to their, often revolting 'homes' each day even if they DID stay in the group during the day. For proper re-education, you have to eat AND sleep it!!

[RichardJ]

"Going to school is not the same as sleeping and living under the same roof; it is said that to really know someone you have to live with them; being bonded by sharing the same challenges; physical and mental obstacles that test your mettle, courage, determination; working together as a team, pitted against another; subject to a strict but fair discipline; being responsible for a high standard of cleanliness and dress; responding to orders and then enjoying the physical feeling of well being and pride in your team that has by now well and truly bonded."

What about having a bunch of ignorant chavs kick the stuffing you of you when the bloke in charge has his back turned? The great thing about going to sixth form college was that we were finally rid of the chavs who had no interest in education or civilisation in general.

People who join the army at the moment do so voluntarily knowing what is in store and are therefore prepared to tolerate the discipline it involves. Throw in a bunch of reluctant chavs and they will just take their rage out on the nicer people.

Fact is that most of us have gone through life pretty well without the need for any military experience. It is said that the young don't take part in politics enough. Suggest national service and you'll see the young taking part en masse - against you.

[Matt Wright]

Agree in part with BW @14.40. National service would be beneficial and could be run by ex-army personnel. However I wouldn't make it compulsory for all youngsters. I would make it compulsory for youngsters who commit a second offence - no ifs and no buts. Many of the public would support us. It would also, more importantly, be the making of very many young men. A good proportion would go on to join the forces, solving the recruitment problem. The cost would be worth it and in this form it wouldn't burden the army it would help them.

At the moment we are not helping youngsters who are starting to drift into crime because when they percive its not taken seriously they lose all respect and sink into deeper trouble.

[Tommy]

It's obvious that we simply have a completely different view of what the proper role of the state is within a free society.

It's rather curious though that you say schooling these days is just kids stuff. Where do you think many of these "problem" types spend a large chunk of their time? As someone else commented earlier, the people who are at the sharp end are the decent, well-mannered young people who are forced into daily contact with the very people you are seeking to reform. I imagine for many decent young people the environment they spend a large amount of their day in is deeply unpleasant.

Having the freedom to associate with those that you choose to associate with, rather than those the state forces you to associate with, is an essential aspect of liberty. This is my main objection to the state directing the lives of twenty year olds, when they could, yes, shock horror, be serving their self interest by working or going to university.

As far as throwing people together, would you have any objection to the state imposing an out of control youth on your home? They could use your spare bedroom. Perhaps having been thrown together, you could be a civilizing influence on them. Is freedom of association looking more attractive now?

As I said before, it would only be a matter of time before the system was turned against conservatives anyway, so why give the state yet another sphere of influence? The Harriet Harpersons and Hazel Blears of the world would eventually use it for their own ends, and the ideas you seek to promote of courage, determination and discipline would be but a distant memory.

[Edward Keene]

A timely call. National military service works well in many countries. In Britain it would provide order and discipline to a disordered and undisciplined generation. It would also serve as a great uniting experience for generations of young people - a common experience of serving the nation undifferentiated by class, background, or religion.

[Libertarian]

Oh dear! It is soul-destroying to see so many jackboot conservatives advocating compulsory slavery on this site. It appears that thatcher's party of freedom has been taken over by the authoritarians, war-mongers and nanny statists.

[Tommy]

It is disheartening Libertarian. Inhibitions about the use of state power just seem to evaporate with many people.

But I fear those of us with a classically liberal outlook have always been a minority within the Conservative Party. Even during the high days of Thatcher.

With respect to the other contributors, I recognise that it is probably me who is commenting on the wrong board.

[a-tracy]

Patsy, it's not just my children I refered to. I know many 17-18 year old teens, quite a number brought up by women deserted by their husbands, who have turned out to be lovely, stable young men with ambition and a good community spirit.

We are told at area meetings that more often than not the police know who the small minority of teens causing problems are, they are just powerless to do much about them because of the soft sentencing.

The advocates for compulsory National Service seem to be tarring all young people with the same brush and appear to want to punish all of them, because that's what this will be seen as a punishment. I don't see it is any different to sending them all to prison for three months, if they can't opt out. What will you do with those that do opt out by simply refusing to conform, because all the good children will toe the line or quit the Country and all the children that you are trying to help just won't participate.

These sort of proposals are wrong headed because your intentions are to deal with those that break the law or have anti-social tendancies but by their nature these very people will abstain because they have no problem with living outside the norms of society.

I would see this as a misdirection of funds.

[Pooter]

National Service will not work. Why? For the reasons it was abandoned.

(i) Too expensive.
(ii) What do you do with thousands of young men to occupy them for two years? What they did last time was manoeuvres; bloody manoeuvres, day after day. Can you imagine that? We can’t even get discipline in the prisons let alone try to impose order on truckloads of youngsters being driven round the countryside for hours at a time!

Far cheaper to keep them at school or send them to university.

[Dontmakemelaugh]

a-tracy, Tommy, Libertarian. et al:

Don't worry, some form of National Service, even for disaffected youth, isn't going to happen. Politicians wouldn't have the bottle; it was just a nostalgic trip back in time for some of us. But I have to tell you that unless something is done to kerb Britain's slide into decadence and a return it to a more homogeneous cohesive state, then something far worse that National Service will probably happen. It will affect those being born today.

General Montgomery, one our most successful generals during the last war said: "Those that do not believe in God (he was alluding to Christianity) will believe in anything".
And so it is in Britain today. The backbone of the Christian ethic is disappearing.
The Bishop of Rochester believes that it is being replaced by a foreign religion and culture? Does the following sound familiar in describing England of today?

"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

I don't know about it being the last days - could be - but some of it sounds familiar to me.

Anyway, none of you bright sparks have made much in the way of suggestions in making England into a more cohesive unit, apart from avoiding any form of National Service. Someone was wetting their knickers and talking about jackboots - they could be on their way, but they wont be worn by the army

[Pooter]

Dontmakemelaugh Though my spark is fast growing dim, I’ll try to offer a positive suggestion. I have been very impressed by the work of BTCV (a conservation group that gets all sorts of people working on woodland conservation: path-making, fencing, dry-stone walling etc.) If the work of such an organization was to be extended it would need a lot of money for tools, materials and supervisors: obviously you can’t have two people knocking in a fence post while twenty stand round watching. As I tried to say earlier, getting young people on the right path is about doing, about learning how not about discussing, watching videos and filling in worksheets; something the highly-educated Oxbridge types who devise education policy just cannot seem to grasp.
So where would the money come from? Might I suggest a Boris-style audit of all the “non-jobs” that have been advertized in the Guardian since 1997? Also, as a matter of urgency, I would apply a size-eleven boot to the posteriors of all those education consultants who have been squandering our taxes in recent years: straight out of the door with them!
Whatever system is devised it must be well funded and not regarded as a cheap dumping ground for disaffected young people.

[The Ghost of Tony Makara's Sanity]

How about 'no'?

My life is my own and I don't owe any of it to the state. This would also be the same state that has failed me constantly, whilst I try to do right by myself and my neighbours...